Are any of these men, by chance, YOU, SmokinHawk?

Just came across this on Facebook.

My schtick worked, though, as I was dressed in a suit and tie, bearing a sign that said "This responsible gun owner will pay double, in CA$H, for your gun".

Does anybody have any figures that show that convicted felons are more likely to kill people with legally obtained guns than people without a criminal record? Also, does anybody have any figures that show that convicted felons wouldn't have killed without being able to access guns?

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by Dan Noyes, Center for Investigative Reporting
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Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.


In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.


The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

So, the way criminals are getting guns is through illegal means

And the logic of that states that since they use illegal means to get guns now, we should add more laws to the books to stop them from obtaining guns illegally?

I'd ask why we just don't enforce the laws on the books already being broken, but I'm sure you have some "logical" response to that, but that still doesn't explain how more unenforced laws on the books are going to make it better

You're great at twisting words and using backwords logic. Really, make a career out of it.

Address the areas where illegal guns are being purchased. Close gun show loophooles/demand transfer of sales on all firearms and give the ATF access to 21st century technology.


After further thinking there are 3 main areas of gun violence that need to be addressed.

1- Mental health - Suicides and random homicides
2- Gun safety training - Accidental shootings
3- Street violence - Violent crime (i.e. armed robberies) and gang/drug warfare

1 and 2 can be addressed in their own way but could fill another thread. Number 3 is where gun show loopholes/what I said above come in to play. Keeping our heads in 1970 on gun laws is just as much part of the problem as the crimes are.

Of course, we can add all that into the law, but how does that change the fact that many guns are sold using straw purchases, and how does that stop the dealer who will sell guns to anyone for a few extra bucks? These sales are already illegal and still make up a large amount of illegal gun ownership in this country. Making these laws are fine and dandy, but they won't do any good without enforcement, and if you actually start to enforce the laws currently on the books, you'd see some of that change you are looking for. The point here isn't some type of "backwords" (loved your spelling there ) thinking, but forward thinking. See, if we enforce the laws that are on the books right now, fewer criminals would have guns and there'd be less violent gun crimes. Making more laws without the ability to even enforce the ones we have will not change a thing. Making laws only helps when/if you can enforce them properly

Start with transfers of ownership and an ATF electronic database on gun dealers' current inventories. Follow that up with annual registration of your firearms (like you do with your autos). This would reduce straw purchasing big time. Require people to report missing/stolen firearms within 72 hours after it is noticed they are missing. Set a limit on how many times a person can "lose" his/firearm before they are denied access from further purchasing.

Create a paper trail for all guns so police can see where the chain of ownership is broken in crimes.

Dubiously undercutting Seattle police is so cool.

I was impressed with the part where Smokin agrees that current laws make it easy for criminals to possess guns. He is agin it though because there are too many bad laws on the books. "Let criminality run rampant because my pride can't swallow bygone laws! Instead of helping with solutions, let us logjam any new legislation! Let us be the thorn in the side of any who are trying to solve the problem! Undercut police, riducule the dead, refuse to assist in justice against criminals, but mostly let us gloat when we succeed in assisting the problem! By God, let guns flow free, from sea to shining sea!"

I agree, though, it was pretty punk rock to undercut the City of Seattle and their police force.

Not one of those things will change a damn thing without enforcement. And if you actually get enforcement, the laws on the books already clear up a lot of these issues.

Like I said, you can add background checks, you can add other laws to make it harder for law abiding citizens to get guns, but NONE of that will stop the criminals from accessing them, because the level of enforcement necessary isn't there.

Buying guns in a suit is about as punk rock as Justin Beiber.

If using the system for personal gain, despite contrarian efforts by others, isn't punk rock, I don't know what is.

You blow a lot of hot air. Show me which laws and where.

What are you talking about? Do you not even read what you post? Your very post just earlier today discussed ways in which criminals are already accessing guns in ways that are illegal. It's not being stopped even though it's already illegal. Exactly how will adding more laws change the fact that we aren't enforcing the ones on the books?