The Seahawks and the 2013 Free Agent Bargain Basement ...

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  • The Seahawks and the 2013 NFL Free Agent Bargain Basement …
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    We’ve talked at length thus far about many of the top/elite level free agents that we’d like to see the Seahawks go after (Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Wes Welker, Michael Bennett, Henry Melton, etc) … but the truth is there is only so much money to spend. Part of the problem with many of the names that have been mentioned thus far is that they’ll either be pricey (as they’ll be drawing a lot of interest from other teams) or there is a high likelihood that those guys will receive the Franchise Tag. And while the Seahawks do have some $18.6 Million in Salary Cap Space, they will also have many of their own free agents to think about coming up here over the next couple of years (i.e. Kam Chancellor, Brandon Browner, Richard Sherman, etc.).
    But Seattle obviously does want to improve in several key areas this offseason, namely (in no particular order) …

    1) A back-up QB (if Matt Flynn gets traded as expected).
    2) A Wide Receiver who can stretch the field and put opposing defensive backs on their heels.
    3) Another pass catching Tight End to compliment Zach Miller.
    4) An Outside Linebacker to upgrade Leroy Hill’s spot.
    5) Defensive End/Tackle(s) to upgrade the pass rush and improve the run defense.
    6) Another Cornerback who can play the Nickel spot.

    Are there decent options out there in Free Agency that wouldn’t bust the piggy bank? Let’s go thrift store shopping and take a look at a few possible alternatives to some of the high priced ones that some have suggested …

    Quarterbacks …

    Quarterback is an area that I’d honestly look for the Seahawks to address through the draft. That said, there are a couple of names who could potentially draw interest …

    QB – Tavaris Jackson (6’2” 225 Pounds) Yes, the back-up QB of the future for your Seattle Seahawks could very well be their starter of the past. Jackson (who turns 30 in April) believe it or not, could potentially be a decent option for the Seahawks as a backup quarterback IF they end up trading Matt Flynn this offseason. In fact, he may very well be the best option available out there in free agency. We know that Jackson is extremely familiar with the bulk of Darrell Bevell’s offense … and that he has the utmost respect of many of the players on this Seahawks team already (playing with a torn pectoral muscle will tend to do that). We know that he’s got a strong arm, that he’s mobile, and that he is a reasonably accurate passer. The market for Jackson isn’t exactly going to be hot and heavy, so he’s not going to be expensive. As a back-up, the Seahawks could do a lot worse.

    QB – Matt Moore (6’3” 216 Pounds) (Will turn 29 in August) is the only other QB out there in free agency who I would argue could make some sense for this team. The former Oregon State Beaver has got excellent arm strength and can make all the NFL throws. He has a quick delivery and doesn’t tend to make bad decisions in where he throws the ball. When things are going well for him, he is a good overall quarterback. The problem comes when he’s pressured, in that he doesn’t pick up the blitz well and that he can get rattled. He also has a tendency at times to lock in on his primary receiver, which has lead to interceptions in the past. He made $2.75 Million last season, so is fairly reasonably priced. The Dolphins would love to have him back next season, but with the emergence of Ryan Tannehill as the undisputed starter, he could very well want the chance to start somewhere else. If he doesn’t end up with a team like the Jets or the Jaguars, perhaps the Seahawks could come in to play if he lingers out there in Free Agency.

    Wide Receivers and Tight Ends …

    Turning our attention to Wide Receivers, the Seahawks appear to be really in need of a guy with speed – someone who has an ability to get deep, who will make opposing DB’s back off because they need to respect that speed, and who will in turn make the other receivers around them better because of it. The names that have been thrown around the most thus far have been Mike Wallace, Wes Welker, and Dwayne Bowe. Are there other names out there that could interest the Hawks? Here are a couple of intriguing options that won’t be as expensive as those guys …

    WR – Brian Hartline (6’2” 199 Pounds) (who turns 27 years old in November) is a guy that I would contend that the Seahawks should do their due diligence on. We’ve talked about the fact that Seattle really would like to have a guy who can be that deep threat for him, and Hartline could be a receiver who fits that bill. Though he only runs a 4.52, he is a guy who can get deep on you. The former Ohio State wide receiver was a real key to the Buckeye’s National Championship in 2008. During his Junior Year and final season at OSU, he showed himself to be a deep threat to be reckoned with, averaging 22.8 yards/catch. Hartline didn’t exactly tear up the league in Miami prior to this year (because until last year he had no one to really get him the ball) … but he showed that when given a competent quarterback he can make plays. He clearly demonstrated that he is a downfield threat this year, as Hartline finished the year with … 74 receptions, 1,083 Yards (14.6 Yards/Catch) … and 14 Catches that went for 20 Yards or more. Hartline made only $1.3 Million in 2012 with the Dolphins, so is certainly in line to make more in 2013. The question the Dolphins are facing right now is whether or not to franchise tag him … but in the end, I don’t believe they will. The Dolphins are $35.8 Million under the Salary Cap right now, so it’ll be interesting to see what they do with him. Hartline checks in at #47 on NFLTradeRumors.com’s list of the Top 100 Free Agents.

    WR – Kevin Ogletree (6’1” 198 Pounds) (who will turn 26 in August) is another potentially low-cost guy whom I believe could intrigue Seattle for what they’d been looking for. We’ve talked about how the Seahawks really need speed … and coming out of the draft he was a receiver who certainly had that. Ogletree’s had been clocked at 4.36 in the 40 … and he’d actually been recorded as fast as 4.30 – so this is a guy who can run. Russ Lande noted at the time he was drafted that he had good hands, excellent concentration, and made tough catches … but also was a bit raw and that his routes weren’t sharp, that he had a tendency to drop passes, and that he was a bit inconsistent in his blocking. He is the only receiver in Virginia history to have two 50 catch seasons, so he’s certainly got talent. It’s interesting to note that his tendency to drop passes seems to have really disappeared, as he dropped only 3 out of 35 catchable passes this year (a 91.4% catch rate, which ranked 2nd among Cowboys receivers last year). Ogletree averaged 13.6 Yards/Catch during the regular season for the Cowboys, but lost playing time as the year went along to Dwayne Harris. He made $615,000 last season with Dallas and his return is fairly doubtful. Could this be a potential diamond in the rough?

    As far as Tight Ends are concerned, players like Martellus Bennett and Jared Cook will get the bulk of the attention this offseason, there are another couple of lower cost guys who may interest Seattle …

    TE – Fred Davis (6’4” 247 Pounds) is a name that has been mentioned by some out there as a possibility for Seattle. As a former USC product, the Pete Carroll connection will naturally get drawn, but from a raw physical tools standpoint, he could really interest the Seahawks. Davis won the Mackey Award (given to the nation’s top Tight End) back in 2007 – the first USC TE ever to win the award. He has good hands, excellent quickness, is a precise route runner, and is a decent blocker to boot. Davis was lost for the season after Week 7 after he tore his Achilles Tendon in the Redskins loss to the Giants on October 21st. Prior to his injury however, Davis was an integral part of the Redskins Offense, being targeted 31 times before he got hurt. He caught 24 passes, averaging 13.5 Yards/Catch and had 4 of those catches go for 20 yards or more. In 2011, Davis caught 59 passes for 796 yards (again averaging 13.5 Yards/Catch). Due to his injury, I believe this is a guy who probably won’t command the big dollars. At only 27 years of age … Davis could turn out to be a real steal for someone if he proves he’s healthy.

    TE—Brandon Myers (6’3” 256 Pounds) is another name that I believe Seahawks fans should file away in the back of their minds as a low cost/potential basement bargain. Myers was the Raiders leading receiver this past season, catching 79 balls for 806 yards, including 9 passes that went for 20 or more yards. Myers checks in at #78 on TradeRumors.com’s Top 100 Free Agents for a reason – he’s shown he can obviously play. The former Iowa Buckeye has good size, average speed for a tight end (4.75 in the 40), good hands, and is an excellent blocker. As it stands right now, the Raiders are $4.5 Million OVER the Salary Cap, so might have some difficulty retaining him. The salary cap number for tight ends for this next year is slated to be around $4.8 Million, so it’s possible the Raiders could fit him in for next year after they clear out some salaries. They DO want him back, but the question is, “Is Myers really worth that kind of money?” With other teams being more focused on some of the bigger names, Myers is a guy who could honestly slide in under the radar and shouldn’t cost a ton. Could he be just like Miller and follow Cable to Seattle? At just 27 years of age, he could potentially be a real FA steal.

    Turning our attention to the defensive side of the ball, there are several names that I believe COULD really interest the Hawks. Let’s take a look at some of the conceivable options that might not necessarily drain the pocket book …

    Linebackers …

    Outside linebacker is one area that I’d look for the Hawks to make a real concerted effort to upgrade. One reason that teams really found success moving the football in those short to middle zones (and found it increasingly easier to run the ball) as the season moved along was because Leroy Hill simply doesn’t have the speed and quickness he used to have anymore. I actually believe that this is area that the Seahawks will most likely look to address through the Draft. For the purpose of this piece however, I’ll focus on Free Agent Targets.
    If he actually pops free, OLB – Paul Kruger (6’4” 265 Pounds) would be a very attractive option for a Seahawks team looking to improve its pass rush and run defense. In fact, I’d actually go so far as saying he’d be the #1 Seahawks target. However, the buzz surrounding the Ravens is that Kruger will likely draw the franchise tag if the Ravens can get a deal done with Joe Flacco. Kruger wants to stay with the Ravens, so it’s probably unlikely that he ends up somewhere else. The Ravens spent big money invested in Terrell Suggs, so they may not want to go there with Kruger. They also face a decision over what to do with Dannell Ellerbe (who is also a free agent), so there may not ultimately be enough cookies to go around in Baltimore. Still, given the fact that Kruger wants to stay and the level of interest elsewhere, I’m doubting he ends up in Seattle. OLB – Anthony Spencer (6’3” 250 Pounds) is another LB who the Seahawks could look in to. After recording 11.0 Sacks and 7 Tackles for Loss last season, it’s very easy to target him as someone of interest. Given that the Cowboys are currently $18.2 Million OVER the Salary Cap, it’s going to be hard for them to franchise him again, as the franchise tender for outside linebackers was $8.8 million in 2012 … and is slated to be higher this season. Given that he played in a 3-4 Defense and that he’s going to draw the interest of a lot of teams, so certainly won’t come cheap. He made $8,856,000 last year and certainly stands to make around that number in 2013 as well.

    So, are there OLB options out there in Free Agency who could help the Seahawks that won’t cost a mint? I’ll suggest a couple …

    OLB – Antwan Barnes (6’1” 251 Pounds) is one guy who might possibly fly under the radar that I’d be very interested in if I’m Seattle. The value of an Antwan Barnes will probably be a bit lower than it should be, as he had just 3 Sacks and 9 Tackles in 11 games and ended the season on Injured Reserve with a hamstring issue. In 2011 though, Barnes was among the NFL’s leaders in Sacks (11.0). Coming out of Florida International of the Sun Belt Conference, Barnes was incredibly productive, with 15.5 Sacks and 38 Tackles for Loss in just 2 years of college. Like Bruce Irvin, he has been very much a situational pass rusher – so for a team like the Hawks who seemingly couldn’t buy a sack, he could be a potentially attractive commodity. He turns 29 in October, so if Pete gives him the typical Rah-Rah, he just might dance to that tune for pennies on the dollar.

    OLB – Phillip Wheeler (6’2” 240 Pounds) is another Raider free agent to keep an eye on given their Cap Status. He led the Raiders last year in tackles (109) and had 6 passes defensed last year playing Strong Side Linebacker (though he can play any of the 3 positions). At 28 years of age, he may not command the kind of dollars in free agency that some of the top guys might get. Coming out of Georgia Tech, he was considered to be one of the top blitzing linebackers in the country. In 3 years of college, he recorded 19.5 Sacks and 35 Tackles for Loss. He hasn’t done that in the pros yet though, as prior to this year he had recorded a mere 2 Sacks in 4 years with the Colts. I’m the Seahawks, and he at all lingers out there in Free Agency, he’s one that I pick up the phone and call his agent on.

    Defensive Linemen …

    Now on to what most of us would agree is perhaps the Seahawks greatest need – improving the Front Four. As the season wore on, it became increasingly easier for opposing teams to run the ball against this defense and Seahawks sacks became rarer than platinum. If we’re talking premium pick-ups, guys like Henry Melton, Michael Bennett, and Michael Johnson are the crown jewels that the Seahawks (and a ton of other teams) are going to be looking at in Free Agency. All 3 of those players are realistic candidates to be Franchise Tagged or else could command more than the GNP’s of some small countries if they do come available.

    Is there a way that the Hawks could look to pump up this Front Four without either getting suspended for PED’s or ending up in the poor house like Randolph and Mortimer from Trading Places? Here are a few names I would suggest …

    DE – Osi Umenyiora (6’3” 255 Pounds) – OK, this is someone we’ve talked about quite a bit already … but I listed him here because he’s one who looks like he could be had at a bargain rate. Umenyiora only had 6 Sacks and 3 Tackles for Loss, leading some out there to wonder whether or not we’ll ever see the same level of production from him again. Umenyiora’s numbers were affected a bit this year by the fact that he missed 4 games due to sprained ankle. He’s had 2 operations in his knee in the past 5 years, so that in and of itself could keep some away. Still, history says that physical specimens like him continue to be productive even until their late 30s (Reggie White posted 16 Sacks at age 37). So if I’m the Hawks, Umenyiora’s agent is definitely one I’m getting on the horn with come the start of Free Agency.

    DE – Dwight Freeney (6’1” 268 Pounds) is another name that has been bandied about by some as a possibility for the Hawks. Honestly, I’d say that it’s an option that should be considered. Some will look at Freeney and say that for a player that turns 33 in February, he’s far from an ideal fit here in Seattle. After all, his numbers in 2012 took a real nose dive from where they were at just a year prior. Regarding Freeney, one factor that I would argue should be considered is the fact that Chuck Pagano moved him to Outside Linebacker in the Colts 3-4 scheme this season. That’s a position that Freeney isn’t all that accustomed to playing. I could definitely see those numbers rebounding in Seattle if he finds himself once again as a rush end. Given his age, his lack of productivity this past year, the crop of linemen that will be available in free agency, and what looks to be a strong draft for defensive linemen, I highly doubt he’s going to be making the big bucks next season.

    DE – William Hayes (6’3” 272 Pounds) is a name that I threw out there a few days ago who really intrigues me. Hayes was originally drafted in the 4th Round by the Titans back in 2008 ... was signed by the Rams this past offseason to a 1 year deal ... and responded by having a career year with the Rams (7.0 Sacks and 7 Tackles for Loss). He is once again a UFA. For a DE, he has good size (6'3" 272 Pounds) and extremely impressive speed for a big man (he's been clocked at 4.59 in the 40). He's 27 years old (will turn 28 in May) and one reason that he's never really broken out prior to this year is that he's played 2nd fiddle to some fairly talented DE's (like Jason Babin and Jevon Kearse) -- i.e. he's had a lot of competition for playing time. Ben Stockwell of Pro Football Focus ran an article back in June in which he called Hayes a "secret superstar", so I'm not the only one high on William Hayes. Hayes’s forte has always been against the run and PFF ranked him the 9th Best DE in the league in terms of stopping it. Obviously he added to his resume last year when given more playing time. Hayes only made $900,000 last season, so if John Schneider is truly looking for bargain basement options (which he undoubtedly is) ... I submit that he is an excellent candidate (to put in the rotation) that probably won't break the bank.

    DT – Desmond Bryant (6’6” 311 Pounds) (who turns 28 in December) is another stealth bomber who could go undetected by many. After Richard Seymour went down with a season ending injury, Bryant took over as the starter for the last 8 games of the Raiders season. He had 0 sacks through Week 13 … but finished the season with 4.0 Sacks and 6 Tackles for Loss. Although he went undrafted in the 2009 Draft, this highly intelligent Harvard graduate appears to know what he’s doing, as he’s developing in to a solid pass rusher and run defender. He made $1.927 Million last season, and stands to improve upon that as the Raiders view his re-signing as a priority this offseason. As stated above though, that could be easier said than done, as the Raiders are currently $4.5 Million over the Salary Cap. Given the perpetual disarray of the organization, a team like the Seahawks could be a more attractive alternative for him.

    DT -- Vance Walker (6’2” 304 Pounds) is another young Defensive Tackle (he turns 26 in April) who could be deserving of an extended look by the Seahawks. In a part time role with the Falcons (he played on 51.9% of their defensive snaps this year), Walker notched 3.0 Sacks and 2 Tackles for Loss. Those numbers don’t exactly going to set the world on fire, but Walker was considered an unsung hero and a fairly integral part of the Falcons defense this year. In fact, head coach Mike Smith went so far as to call Walker the Falcons “most productive defensive tackle in terms of pass rush statistically.” Walker’s job this season was to do the dirty work of taking up space by occupying more than one blocker – a job that he did very well this year. At Georgia Tech, Walker was considered an extremely good run stuffer and he demonstrated an ability to consistently get in to opposing backfields to disrupt and put pressure on the quarterback. He made $1.26 Million in the last year of his rookie deal and will certainly draw some interest from other clubs. Though the Falcons want him back, they will have other priorities in free agency like re-signing Strong Safety William Moore and Left Tackle Sam Baker. Walker could be just the kind of young defensive tackle that the Hawks might want to swoop in and carry back to their nest … and it realistically shouldn’t cost a wing and a talon to do it.

    Cornerbacks …

    We’ve talked about it all season long – the Seahawks are in need of a corner who can come in and lock down the Nickel Corner spot. Luckily, with the way Free Agency looks to be shaping up, there could be a potential bumper crop to choose from. The franchise tag number for cornerbacks this year is expected to be quite high -- roughly $10.5 million in 2013. That, coupled with the number of free agents who will be out looking for jobs … and the prospects available in this year’s NFL Draft (Rob Rang says this is a deceptively deep draft for DB’s) could conceivably water down the market. Many Seahawks fans have been all atwitter over the past couple of days with word surfacing out of New York that the Jets are willing to listen to offers for All-Pro CB Derrell Revis. Though many Hawk fans would wet their pants over the prospect of such an addition, I’d submit that could have disastrous consequences for Seattle. Not only could Revis’s brash personality be an issue with prima donnas like Richard Sherman, but the $9 Million he’s owed next season would surely have Sherman and Browner holding out their hands for the brass (or should I say gold) ring once their turn at Free Agency comes around.

    On the premium side, corners like Sean Smith (6’2” 215 pounds) could be an attractive commodity … but it’s almost a certainty that the Dolphins will Franchise him. Others like Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (6’2” 182 Pounds), Aqib Talib (6’1” 205 Pounds), and Chris Houston (5’11” 178 Pounds) could certainly draw the interest of the Hawks.

    BUT, there are 3 other names that I’d like to suggest as less expensive alternatives – all 3 of which have experience at the Nickel Corner spot and have done a good job there …

    CB – Derek Cox (6’1” 195 Pounds) – if you’re talking about guys who could be looked at as being diamonds in the rough, I’d submit to you that Derek Cox of the Jaguars is the very definition of that. Cox, who turns 27 in September, had 60 Tackles, 4 Interceptions, and 11 Passes Defensed for the Jags in 2012. Now why that may not sound all that impressive, given the team that he plays on – that most certainly is. In 2011, ProFootball Focus had Cox ranked as the 21st Best Corner in the game. Cox has good size, overall speed (4.47, but has run as fast as 4.38), and the quickness that you’d like for a corner. He’s a physical corner who really attacks receivers and is very good in run support (so much so that there was conversation about moving him to safety at the time he was drafted). Cox checks in at #57 on NFLTradeRumors.com’s list of 100 Best Free Agents. Jacksonville has $22.1 Million in available Cap Space, so there is a strong possibility Gus Bradley may want to let him go. That said, this Jacksonville team is bad and they may not end up employing the Franchise Tag in the end. Why? Because though he’s their best defensive player, he may not be worth $10.5 Million/year. You see Cox has a bad case of Walter Thurmond Syndrome, as he’s missed 17 games over the past 3 years. That, in and of itself, will keep his overall cost on the open market down should he get there. If he hits Free Agency, he’s a name I’m checking in on if I’m John Schneider.

    CB -- Bradley Fletcher (6’1” 200 Pounds) Fletcher, who turned 26 in June, is a free agent who could really fly low under the radar and be a real coup for someone. He had 8 Passes Defensed last season with the Rams … and though he was regarded by many as perhaps the best corner on the team next to Janoris Jenkins … he received less playing time as last season wore on. NFL Trade Rumors.com has him listed at #81 on their Top 100 FA List … and most certainly he should be – he’s got talent. Fletcher is a guy who going in to the 2009 NFL Draft was considered to be a real sleeper – someone who was considered to be one of the fastest risers shooting up draft boards. In fact, he was considered by some to have been the best corner at the East-West Shrine game that year. The former Iowa star is a very physical cornerback and a very hard worker (in fact, he earned the team Hustle Award his last 2 years at Iowa). He has excellent speed for a corner (4.46), leaping ability (his 38.5 inch vertical was 3rd best among corner prospects that year), quickness, and coverage skills. Fletcher regularly makes plays on the ball when he’s in there and has the stuff to be a shutdown corner. So if he’s all that and a bag of chips, what gives with the reduced playing time and why would the Rams want to let him go? Well, because in 2011 he appeared in just 4 games after tearing up his ACL (for the 2nd time in 3 seasons). There were rumors that the reason the Rams dropped him down to 4th on the depth chart was because they were looking to trade him – because he was an impending free agent and they wanted to get value for him. Now that he is, he’s a name that I’m certainly checking in on if I’m Seattle, as he could be a true basement bargain.

    CB -- Cary Williams (6’1” 190 Pounds) is a name that Seahawks fans should file away in their memory banks for the start of Free Agency. Cary Williams is certainly an intriguing name and one who shouldn’t break the bank (even if Williams himself may want that). Williams had 17 Passes Defensed (among the league leaders) and 4 Interceptions in 2012 and was a real reason that the Ravens secondary tied the Seahawks for the fewest passing touchdowns allowed (15). Though he’s not a shutdown corner by any means, he is an excellent nickel cornerback who has shown the ability to keep up with smaller, shiftier WR’s. Williams hasn’t utilized a lot of bump and run and doesn’t exactly set the world on fire with his run support. NFL TradeRumors.com has Williams listed at #67 on their Top 100 FA List. Cary Williams supposedly turned down a 3 Year/$15 million deal from the Ravens prior to the start of the 2012 season. That could turn out to be a mistake on his part, because I’m not sure he’s going to get that kind of money on the open market. Williams turns 29 in December and corners don’t typically get markedly better with age. He made $1.927 Million in 2012 with the Ravens last year and I don’t believe he’s going to make much more than that, as other teams are going to be pointing towards those weaknesses. Though the Ravens want him back, they have other priorities (i.e Flacco, Kruger, and Ellersbe), so probably will let him walk and test the market. Williams may not be an ideal fit for the Seahawks, but he could be an interesting option if he lingers out there in free agency. I’d consider him more of an outside shot … but one they’ll do their due diligence on.

    Just a few lower cost options to keep in mind as we edge ever closer to free agency.
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    Hawkscanner
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  • Solid post. Any RTs or interior lineman you're looking at?
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    RobBaker7714409
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  • I hope we can grab at least one DL and pass catcher in FA. It will allow us so much more freedom in the draft. I fell like DL would be the better route in FA as we already have 3 young DL we drafted last year we can groom. Irvin, Howard, and Scruggs should all get a chance to improve. Brining ina Vet like Osi or Bryant would help us now and allow us to use a high pick in a thinner position.
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    Wenhawk
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  • Please take no offense here but these are players and choices "you" are interested in or think the team should be interested in.

    More an NFL Forum post than main forum.

    :les:
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    On to week two. Week one was not a fluke!
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    The Radish
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  • The Radish wrote:Please take no offense here but these are players and choices "you" are interested in or think the team should be interested in.

    More an NFL Forum post than main forum.

    :les:


    they're free agents relating to positional needs of the Seahawks, he's not just talking about random free agents hitting the market and how they'll be viewed by the rest of the league, the article is specifically geared towards the Seahawks.

    Sometimes I think you're a little too trigger happy with moving threads (or merging them, as you did with the Tom Cable one not too recently).

    I feel the same about you moving the Revis thread. Just because the player doesn't play for us (yet) doesn't make it non-relevant Seahawks news. I rarely enter the NFL forum as I'm more interested in Hawk news, but whilst I find both of these threads interesting, I might not see them if they're kept in the NFL forum. I mean I don't see any reason for them to be moved (particularly in the quiet off-season). If Seattle DID trade for Revis would you move that thread back? It seems a pointless move and arguably an abuse of power.
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  • Scanner, thanks dude. You're a valuable asset.

    And agreed on the nitpicky moving of threads. It hurts alot more than it helps in the offseason.
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    pehawk
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  • Awesome post Hawkscanner. With all the talk focused on Melton and Starks, we do not often hear about the talent available in this price range. It makes me more hopeful that we can address our pass rush issues while perserving our cap surplus.

    Desmond Bryant seems particularly promising.
    scipiobronze
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  • I heard Carey Williams say on the radio this season that the infamous Tate catch was in fact an interception and there was no doubt in his mind and the refs blew it.

    Do any of you still want him?
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    bmorepunk
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  • The Radish wrote:Please take no offense here but these are players and choices "you" are interested in or think the team should be interested in.

    More an NFL Forum post than main forum.

    :les:


    Ahhh -- yep Les, it is my personal opinion based upon research ... based upon how the Seahawks do business ... and based upon what it appears to me that the Seahawks need in Free Agency.

    I've been working on this piece all week and prior to yesterday, I had identified that Paul Kruger could be a legitimate target of the Hawks -- in fact, I'd say the #1 target at OLB in FA if he's available. And lo and behold I wander over to 710 ESPN and check out Danny O'Neil asking John Clayton about exactly that ... and Clayton confirmed that he's someone Seattle could indeed be interested in.

    These are all educated guesses. We all do the exact same kind of Roto-GM'ing thing here all offseason long. No offense taken.
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    Hawkscanner
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  • themunn wrote:
    The Radish wrote:Please take no offense here but these are players and choices "you" are interested in or think the team should be interested in.

    More an NFL Forum post than main forum.

    :les:


    they're free agents relating to positional needs of the Seahawks, he's not just talking about random free agents hitting the market and how they'll be viewed by the rest of the league, the article is specifically geared towards the Seahawks.

    Sometimes I think you're a little too trigger happy with moving threads (or merging them, as you did with the Tom Cable one not too recently).

    I feel the same about you moving the Revis thread. Just because the player doesn't play for us (yet) doesn't make it non-relevant Seahawks news. I rarely enter the NFL forum as I'm more interested in Hawk news, but whilst I find both of these threads interesting, I might not see them if they're kept in the NFL forum. I mean I don't see any reason for them to be moved (particularly in the quiet off-season). If Seattle DID trade for Revis would you move that thread back? It seems a pointless move and arguably an abuse of power.



    Used to be a parctice that when someone called out a MOD for doing their jobs in the main forums that trigger finger would be pointed at them for a vacation as well. You don't like how the cook fixes a meal go to another restaurant was the way things were handled, complain to loudly the bouncer will show you the door.
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  • bmorepunk wrote:I heard Carey Williams say on the radio this season that the infamous Tate catch was in fact an interception and there was no doubt in his mind and the refs blew it.

    Do any of you still want him?


    Sure, who gives a rip what he said about Tate's TD catch? And he's a defensive back, do you expect him to side with the receiver on any play like this?
    All I care about is CAN HE PLAY and get the job done. I don't care if he's convinced alien ET's are responsible for 9/11, if he can cover and be a contributing part of the team.
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  • Excellent piece. I didn't realize Brian Hartline was a free agent. He's somebody I'd be very interested in.

    I hate to criticize, as you clearly put a lot of work into it, but there's no way that Paul Kruger, Anthony Spencer, or Cary Williams will be anywhere in the neighborhood of "bargain basement". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Cary Williams gets a contract comparable to what Brandon Carr got last year.
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  • I don't think anyone is complaining about keeping topics separated and organized. The mods have a job to do. I think the complaints stem from some of the "judgement calls" that don't always make sense. IMO, if a topic doesn't deal with the Seahawks on the surface but clearly ties into the team and it's strategy, I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed on the main forum.

    That plus, you know, it's the offseason. If we aren't allowed to talk about free agents or draft picks, what would we talk about?
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  • Rat wrote:Excellent piece. I didn't realize Brian Hartline was a free agent. He's somebody I'd be very interested in.

    I hate to criticize, as you clearly put a lot of work into it, but there's no way that Paul Kruger, Anthony Spencer, or Cary Williams will be anywhere in the neighborhood of "bargain basement". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Cary Williams gets a contract comparable to what Brandon Carr got last year.


    I was just about to bring up Brandon Carr. If anyone looked like he'd be a bargain player last year, it was Carr. Then Dallas signed him immediately for $50 million. If you want to find a bargain player these days, look to players with a bad reputation (T-Jack, Branch in 2011) or players well over 30 (Raheem Brock or Brandon Stokely in 2010). Very few good young players are under the radar these days.
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  • Rat wrote:Excellent piece. I didn't realize Brian Hartline was a free agent. He's somebody I'd be very interested in.

    I hate to criticize, as you clearly put a lot of work into it, but there's no way that Paul Kruger, Anthony Spencer, or Cary Williams will be anywhere in the neighborhood of "bargain basement". In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Cary Williams gets a contract comparable to what Brandon Carr got last year.


    LOL! Well that's because Paul Kruger and Anthony AREN'T basement bargains whatsoever. I didn't list them under that category -- those would be more of the premium free agents (thought I made that more clear). As far as Cary Williams is concerned -- you might be surprised by that actually. I don't know that he's going to get the big bucks because:

    1) The market will actually be flooded with some decent CB's.

    2) The Draft is deceptively deep (according to Rob Rang) with defensive back prospects.

    3) Williams doesn't play a whole lot of bump and run coverage -- he's not the type to really get physical and go after receivers.

    4) He's not particularly great in run support.

    In terms of him specifically, I listed him there because of those weaknesses and all of the other facts I laid out there. As far as the Hawks and Cary Williams are concerned, I don't believe it would be an ideal fit -- more of a fallback if the market doesn't pan out for him as he's hoping it will.
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  • olyfan63 wrote:
    bmorepunk wrote:I heard Carey Williams say on the radio this season that the infamous Tate catch was in fact an interception and there was no doubt in his mind and the refs blew it.

    Do any of you still want him?


    Sure, who gives a rip what he said about Tate's TD catch? And he's a defensive back, do you expect him to side with the receiver on any play like this?
    All I care about is CAN HE PLAY and get the job done. I don't care if he's convinced alien ET's are responsible for 9/11, if he can cover and be a contributing part of the team.


    Exactly what I was going to say. Seriously, this is a cornerback we're talking about. Of course he's going to side with a fellow CB in thinking it was an INT.
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  • RobBaker7714409 wrote:Solid post. Any RTs or interior lineman you're looking at?


    Honestly, I didn't include Tackles or Guards because frankly I really believe Seattle's philosophy is to add those guys through the draft primarily.

    In terms of Right Tackles ... the PREMIUM names that are slated to be out there are:

    Sebastian Vollmer (However, I don't believe there's any way that the Patriots are letting him go).

    Andre Smith (the Bengals aren't letting him go either. It's just not their way).

    Phil Loadholt (the Vikings have talked contract extension with him. They're not going to want to let him get away easily.)


    As far as guys who could come available, IF (a BIG IF) the Seahawks are looking to upgrade the RT spot (which I'm not sure they're looking to do. I think they're actually fairly content with Giacomini and have more pressing concerns at other positions to worry about) ... here are a couple of names that could be interesting (though may not exactly be "bargains" ...

    Gosder Cherilus (at 28 years old, the Lions look to be ready to let him walk in order to give 1st Round Draft Choice Reily Reiff more opportunity for playing time. Cherilus was rated as the 7th Best Tackle by Pro Football Focus.)

    Ryan Harris (of the Texans would be an intriguing name. He turns 28 in March and had a good season with Houston, allowing only 2 Sacks on the year. What's going to potentially keep his value down is the fact that he's struggled with back issues in the past. Could be a steal for someone.)


    On the Guard front ... the PREMIUM names as of right now are:

    Andy Levitre (is the biggest name out there ... and it looks like he might hit free agency. He's going to command a lot of interest on the open market and won't be cheap.)

    Louis Vasquez (of the Chargers is 27 years old and again would be one of the top draws in free agency this year. Many surrounding the team consider him a must re-sign, so we'll see if he actually gets signed before the flood gates open.)


    Again, I don't believe that the Hawks will actually look to add a Guard through Free Agency (the draft is where they seem to like to get them) ... but IF they were to, here are some of the names I would consider ...

    Donald Thomas (of the Patriots is another interesting name who is slated to hit free agency this offseason. He will turn 28 years old in September. He's a solid veteran who can play both guard spots. I don't think he'll command the big bucks, so he's certainly a name to consider.)

    Ramon Foster (of the Steelers would be a very interesting name if he were to actually not be back with the team. He can play both guard spots and did an admirable job filling in at LG for David DeCastro ... and then later at RG this year for Willie Colon when he went down. He wants to return to the Steelers, but there may not be a spot for him. He just turned 27, so still is in the prime of his career. He'd be a solid veteran presence for someone.)

    Brandon Moore (of the Jets in terms of talent will be one of the best OG's on the market when FA begins. However, he'll also be 33 years old when the season starts, so buyer beware. Remember what happened to Mike Wahle when he got to Seattle?)

    Kevin Boothe (of the Giants is a guy who will certainly interest someone, as he's versatile and can play at multiple spots along the line. The Giants right now are $4.7 Million over the cap, so Boothe probably becomes a cap casualty, as they let him hit free agency. Again, he'll be 30 years old when the season starts, so that in and of itself will keep his price tag down and keep many other teams away entirely.)

    As I said, I don't expect the Hawks to add to the OL through Free Agency, but those are a few names I would keep an eye on in theory if they would.
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  • kearly wrote:I don't think anyone is complaining about keeping topics separated and organized. The mods have a job to do. I think the complaints stem from some of the "judgement calls" that don't always make sense. IMO, if a topic doesn't deal with the Seahawks on the surface but clearly ties into the team and it's strategy, I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed on the main forum.

    That plus, you know, it's the offseason. If we aren't allowed to talk about free agents or draft picks, what would we talk about?


    Being a MOD isn't easy and it's all judgement, since the player isn't a current or past Seahawk many times the topic will get moved to releave congestion on main board. There will be a lot going on in NFL, Draft and main page with all the different things coming up. Also it's a lot easier to go find a topic if it's in the appropriate location. May not always make sense but as a general rule thats what they try to acheive.

    With the rise of our Seahawks again it is also much harder on the MODS to be fair, we are getting a lot more outside traffic coming in. People that flame, want to know about players that may be on the market, coaches etc. Bad enough were getting our defenses up but to be fair to them and to our own you have to watch and see if that line gets crossed. Again something that takes a lot more of the MODS time and energy.

    Guess in a long way I'm saying don't judge them harshly if you have not walked in their shoes.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    themunn wrote:
    The Radish wrote:Please take no offense here but these are players and choices "you" are interested in or think the team should be interested in.

    More an NFL Forum post than main forum.

    :les:


    they're free agents relating to positional needs of the Seahawks, he's not just talking about random free agents hitting the market and how they'll be viewed by the rest of the league, the article is specifically geared towards the Seahawks.

    Sometimes I think you're a little too trigger happy with moving threads (or merging them, as you did with the Tom Cable one not too recently).

    I feel the same about you moving the Revis thread. Just because the player doesn't play for us (yet) doesn't make it non-relevant Seahawks news. I rarely enter the NFL forum as I'm more interested in Hawk news, but whilst I find both of these threads interesting, I might not see them if they're kept in the NFL forum. I mean I don't see any reason for them to be moved (particularly in the quiet off-season). If Seattle DID trade for Revis would you move that thread back? It seems a pointless move and arguably an abuse of power.



    Used to be a parctice that when someone called out a MOD for doing their jobs in the main forums that trigger finger would be pointed at them for a vacation as well. You don't like how the cook fixes a meal go to another restaurant was the way things were handled, complain to loudly the bouncer will show you the door.


    It's more akin to finding a fly in your soup than not liking how he fixes the meal - there's literally no need to move a thread like this, it's interesting Seahawks hypotheses, if a thread like this doesn't go in the main Seahawks forum what does, Seahawks news and nothing else? It's the offseason so there's not going to be much. I just saw a picture of Russell Wilson with Jared Allen and Larry Fitzgerald moved as well because they play for other NFL teams. Yeah maybe so but Russell Wilson is still a Seattle Seahawk as far as I'm aware. I just don't see the logic behind it.

    chris98251 wrote:Being a MOD isn't easy and it's all judgement, since the player isn't a current or past Seahawk many times the topic will get moved to releave congestion on main board. There will be a lot going on in NFL, Draft and main page with all the different things coming up. Also it's a lot easier to go find a topic if it's in the appropriate location. May not always make sense but as a general rule thats what they try to acheive.

    With the rise of our Seahawks again it is also much harder on the MODS to be fair, we are getting a lot more outside traffic coming in. People that flame, want to know about players that may be on the market, coaches etc. Bad enough were getting our defenses up but to be fair to them and to our own you have to watch and see if that line gets crossed. Again something that takes a lot more of the MODS time and energy.

    Guess in a long way I'm saying don't judge them harshly if you have not walked in their shoes.


    During draft week or the playoffs i could maybe agree that some threads need moved - now we're talking about the start of the offseason, one look at the front page (which still contains the shells of these threads, basically making 2 links to one thread and (IMO) creating more "unnecessary clutter") and you can see threads from Sunday, Saturday, Friday and Thursday - so it's hardly getting congested.

    But I'm just asking Radish to look upon his judgement a little clearer - the NFL forum should be for threads that you would see on any general NFL forum regardless of team - will Tony Gonzalez retire, is Colin Kaepernick really trademarking his biceps, will RGIII come back from his knee injury the same player? These are threads and questions you'd expect to see on any team's forum and that's what makes them suitable for the "NFL Forum"

    How many other NFL forums do you think you'd see a thread which goes through positions of need for the Seahawks and the best cheap players available in free agency to fill those needs? I'd garner a guess at Seahawks forums only (maybe I'd be wrong), and hence it makes more sense to be in the discussion with other Seahawks topics.
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  • Guys, if you'd like to comment I'm asking that it be back on point. I understand when people feel a little miffed and they want to vent. I get that. Honestly though from my perspective, I'm OK with the MOD's decision. Like all Refs, they have a tough job to do and even if I don't agree with a call from time to time ... I'll stick by it and accept it. I'm a teacher by trade, so know the importance of discipline and order.

    That said, I'd like to get back to the topic at hand and ask you all ...

    1) Do you see any of the names that I listed above that intrigue/excite you?
    2) Do you see any of the names that I listed above as ones (in your opinion) Scneider could honestly target?

    The more I've thought about it, the ones that I believe are MOST likely are ...

    Paul Kruger (who again ISN'T a "Bargain" guy -- he's a Premium FA).

    On the "Bargain" Shelf (i.e. guys who won't break the bank), the names I'm thinking JS will check in to are:

    TE Fred Davis (the USC connection there, the talent, and the price tag alone)
    DE Osi Umenyiora (we know Seattle has liked him in the past)
    DT's Desmond Bryant and Vance Walker (I'd call them an upgrade over Branch - good, young talent)
    CB Derek Cox
    CB Bradley Fletcher (both Fletcher and Cox have experience as Nickel Backs and have done very well there. They're young, but injury history, other FA options at CB, and a good crop of corners in the draft will keep the cost down).

    Thoughts guys on those names ... on any other of the names I listed above ... or any other perceived bargain guys floating around?
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  • I've mentioned i like William Hayes also, last year i think he finish the last 6 games with 5.5 sacks. Like you said he hasn't really been able to see the field a ton playing behind talented guys, but watching a little film on him, he lined up inside(nascar package) and outside for the Rams last year. I'm wondering if Clem isn't back right away do you think he can play in that LEO role? If so when Clem does make it back, you could move him inside on obvious passing downs like the Rams did. I like the sounds of Clem,Hayes,Jones,Irvin as a 4 man pass rush.
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  • getnasty wrote:I've mentioned i like William Hayes also, last year i think he finish the last 6 games with 5.5 sacks. Like you said he hasn't really been able to see the field a ton playing behind talented guys, but watching a little film on him, he lined up inside(nascar package) and outside for the Rams last year. I'm wondering if Clem isn't back right away do you think he can play in that LEO role? If so when Clem does make it back, you could move him inside on obvious passing downs like the Rams did. I like the sounds of Clem,Hayes,Jones,Irvin as a 4 man pass rush.


    Actually, where I'd see the value of a William Hayes is if Schneider and company feels that either they can't get something done with (contract-wise) ... or that he'd be an upgrade over Jason Jones. That's the role that I could see Hayes playing and doing very well at it.

    As far as Clemons's position is concerned ... I'm personally hoping for someone with absolute freakish athleticism (strength and speed) there. I'm loving what I'm hearing about Ezekiel Ansah ... but they'd have to trade up to nab him.
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  • A couple of names to add to the QB list are Troy Smith and Dennis Dickson.
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  • McGruff wrote:A couple of names to add to the QB list are Troy Smith and Dennis Dickson.


    That's a great catch there Crime Dog. Dennis Dixon definitely would be an intriguing name for sure. Interestingly enough, Mike Florio just wrote an article up on him 2 days ago ...

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/24/dennis-dixon-could-be-laying-foundation-for-next-phase-of-his-career/

    He'd certainly be an interesting name given that he played at Oregon, is very athletic, and is naturally very familiar with the Zone Read Option. He's tall, has a good arm, and at one time was in the conversation as a Heisman candidate before he tore his ACL.

    Troy Smith is another interesting name -- 6'0" 217 Pounds (short by NFL standards, but could workable in Seattle's system given his athleticism and scrambling ability). He is a very good athlete, has an extremely good arm, and is an accurate passer. There's a reason he won the Heisman Trophy.

    The one concern I have is that both guys are 28 years old ... but yeah, I'd be game to have them come in and compete for the 3rd QB Spot in training camp.
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  • If the Hawks go old at QB, just grab Seneca.
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  • pehawk wrote:If the Hawks go old at QB, just grab Seneca.


    Yeah I'd thought about Seneca honestly ... but trading him away was one of Schneider and Carroll's very first moves. In general, they value size at the position and Seneca doesn't have that. Not that Troy Smith is Goliath either, but he does have a much stronger resume than Seneca does IMO ... AND he's 4 years younger (Seneca is 32).
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  • They traded Seneca, followed by trading for Whitehurst. So, I dont know they knew what they wanted.

    Here's why I want Seneca; no sacks, no INT's, no fumbles. He'll go 19/22 for 94 yards...and that's perfect.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:Guys, if you'd like to comment I'm asking that it be back on point. I understand when people feel a little miffed and they want to vent. I get that. Honestly though from my perspective, I'm OK with the MOD's decision. Like all Refs, they have a tough job to do and even if I don't agree with a call from time to time ... I'll stick by it and accept it. I'm a teacher by trade, so know the importance of discipline and order.

    That said, I'd like to get back to the topic at hand and ask you all ...

    1) Do you see any of the names that I listed above that intrigue/excite you?
    2) Do you see any of the names that I listed above as ones (in your opinion) Scneider could honestly target?

    The more I've thought about it, the ones that I believe are MOST likely are ...

    Paul Kruger (who again ISN'T a "Bargain" guy -- he's a Premium FA).

    On the "Bargain" Shelf (i.e. guys who won't break the bank), the names I'm thinking JS will check in to are:

    TE Fred Davis (the USC connection there, the talent, and the price tag alone)
    DE Osi Umenyiora (we know Seattle has liked him in the past)
    DT's Desmond Bryant and Vance Walker (I'd call them an upgrade over Branch - good, young talent)
    CB Derek Cox
    CB Bradley Fletcher (both Fletcher and Cox have experience as Nickel Backs and have done very well there. They're young, but injury history, other FA options at CB, and a good crop of corners in the draft will keep the cost down).

    Thoughts guys on those names ... on any other of the names I listed above ... or any other perceived bargain guys floating around?


    Yeah no problem taking back on topic (with one final comment to make - it's a football forum, not a classroom, order and discipline are far down the list of things required between football fans chatting with each other)

    To be honest, whilst I can see the FO looking at cornerbacks to upgrade over Trufant, someone like Cox won't be cheap, and certainly I don't think expensive players with a history of injuries will be looked at to upgrade over Thurmond, who is good enough to be the guy but has that injury history himself - Fletcher is a similar situation, but would be a lot cheaper so I can see them considering it, however, I think the cornerback we are looking for will either be drafted this year, or perhaps already on the roster between Maxwell and Lane, both of whom played adequately in relief of Browner.

    I don't perceive TE to be as much of a need as others either, Miller is a great all-around player, and McCoy is still young, improving every season and came up with some clutch catches himself, so a high-priced free agent signing is a low low priority (I know you're talking about bargains here, but do we really think Davis will go cheap? The Redskins franchised him last year and likely he will be looking for one of the bigger TE contracts out there - perhaps not Miller sized, but certainly something substantial.

    Finally, the last of your picks I disagree with would be Kruger - who I agree would be a premium FA, but as a member of the soon-to-be-superbowl-champs ravens (in no universe can I ever consider the 49ers winning that game), he'll be looking to stay first and foremost, and while I'm not familiar with the Ravens' cap situation, I imagine they'll be happy to pay him what he deserves, especially with them losing Ray Lewis too - losing 2 starting linebackers in one offseason would be a difficult situation to overcome, so I imagine he'll fail to even reach the FA market.

    Bryant I think is probably near the top of the list of guys JS is looking at, and for good reason, he'll probably reach FA unless the Raiders do some significant trimming elsewhere, and he's one of the top available players at the position - I don't think he'll come cheap, but he'd be a significant upgrade over Branch IMO, and of course Osi is always being touted as a possible addition to the roster, I think he'd be a good addition if we could get him relatively cheap (say 3 years for somewhere between 12-15 million I'd be OK with), if a guy like Raheem Brock can put up 9 sacks at 32 after posting 12.5 combined in the previous 4 years, then a far more talented guy in Osi should be able to match that - particularly with the looming possibility of an ineffective Clemons returning from injury (though personally I think he'll be fine).

    Ideally I'd like to see the front office scouring for defensive ends and picking up 2 or 3, if we could rotate fresh defensive ends in against tiring tackles, sacks would build up, and towards the end of the game players like Irvin would be able to dominate and prevent those damn last second losses
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:
    olyfan63 wrote:
    bmorepunk wrote:I heard Carey Williams say on the radio this season that the infamous Tate catch was in fact an interception and there was no doubt in his mind and the refs blew it.

    Do any of you still want him?


    Sure, who gives a rip what he said about Tate's TD catch? And he's a defensive back, do you expect him to side with the receiver on any play like this?
    All I care about is CAN HE PLAY and get the job done. I don't care if he's convinced alien ET's are responsible for 9/11, if he can cover and be a contributing part of the team.


    Exactly what I was going to say. Seriously, this is a cornerback we're talking about. Of course he's going to side with a fellow CB in thinking it was an INT.


    I was interested to see how far some might take the fury over the whole thing. There was some serious demonization of people who dared to say something like that to the point that they'd disown their own family.

    The real problem with Williams isn't this but it's as others stated: he's probably getting paid to start somewhere and it's out of the price range. Baltimore likely won't keep him because they're in serious cap trouble (particularly with probably having to eat a $15 million per year contract from Flacco now that he's woken up) but the guy is probably good enough to sign on to a starting job somewhere for decent money with where he's been. He probably won't take Seattle money to play nickel.
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  • My question is why are we talking corners at all? My guess is that Trufant stays as depth in 2013 with Lane and Maxwell providing the step up in their second and third seasons respectively to take over the slot. I have gotten to the point where I think an injury settlement would be best for Thurmond III. If Parker and Shead show nothing in preseason they will be gone, but I will be amazed if we don't bring in at least three more undrafted free agents to battle it out in training camp.
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  • pehawk wrote:They traded Seneca, followed by trading for Whitehurst. So, I dont know they knew what they wanted.

    Here's why I want Seneca; no sacks, no INT's, no fumbles. He'll go 19/22 for 94 yards...and that's perfect.


    You know, I've been thinking today about the issue of this regime's supposed ineptitude at being able to identify quarterbacks. I know this isn't exactly what you're saying Pehawks, but your post got me to thinking about this in terms of Schneider and Carroll because some Hawks fans might be thinking after the Whitehurst deal ... and then seemingly whiffing on Matt Flynn (paying him as a starter) that they just aren't very good at evaluating QB's.

    Well, for those who might think along those lines, I'd remind you that Mike Holmgren had a reputation of being one of the best in the NFL at identifying, working with, and developing quarterbacks. He was considered one of the NFL's true QB gurus (and of course still is). Just a little historical review on Holmgren:

    As you'll recall, Holmgren was hired prior to the 1999 season and was in Seattle through the 2008 season. And not only was he COACH Mike Holmgren ... he was also GM Mike Holmgren until Tim Ruskell was brought in prior to the 2005 season. So, for 6 years prior to Ruskell's arrival, Holmgren had full control to buy all the groceries.

    Holmgren obviously hit on Matt Hasselbeck, trading Seattle's 1st (10th overall) and 3rd Round Picks in 2001 to Green Bay for Hasselbeck, Green Bay's 1st Round Choice (17th) and 7th Round picks that year. It could be also argued that he hit on Seneca Wallace, drafting him in the 4th Round in 2003.

    That said, he also had several whiffs on the QB position as well ...

    1999 -- (3rd Round) Brock Huard -- U of Wash.
    2001 -- (6th Round) Josh Booty -- Louisiana State
    2003 -- (7th Round) Jeff Kelly -- Southern Miss.
    2005 -- (3rd Round) David Greene -- Georgia

    In Cleveland, Holmgren also missed on Colt McCoy (3rd Round in 2010) ... though to be completely fair, a lot of people were off on their evaluation of him including Trent Dilfer, who said of McCoy that he was a 1st Round talent and that when everything was all said and done that he would end up having the best career of any of the QB's taken that year. And of course, I would argue that the jury is still out on Brandon Weeden.

    Point being that it's been said that Quarterback is the hardest position in all the NFL to accurately evaluate. Therefore, for those who might be inclined to criticize Carroll and Schneider -- I wouldn't be too hard on them. Even the Best QB's prospects bomb out ... and those whom everyone seemingly believes will fail (i.e. Brady, Hasselbeck, Krieg, etc.) succeed. Despite all the best talent evaluation in the world, it's still very much a crap shoot when it comes to quarterbacks.
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  • I'm in the minority here, but I don't have any issue with the Whitehurst deal. He has 1st round tools, actually, they thought Pete could motivate him. Didn't work, oh well, ya take the gamble.

    As far as prettiest ball, Huard's probably top 5 in NFL history. Just a wuss.
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    pehawk
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  • So is this getting moved back to the main forum?
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:
    pehawk wrote:You know, I've been thinking today about the issue of this regime's supposed ineptitude at being able to identify quarterbacks. I know this isn't exactly what you're saying Pehawks, but your post got me to thinking about this in terms of Schneider and Carroll because some Hawks fans might be thinking after the Whitehurst deal ... and then seemingly whiffing on Matt Flynn (paying him as a starter) that they just aren't very good at evaluating QB's.


    I think it's a totally unfair rep, what we paid for Whitehurst is pretty cheap for a QB (essentially valued at 2 3rd round picks) - particularly one with the tools he had. And I don't think missing on a QB means they can't evaluate them, it just means they're not available. They paid for Whitehurst in 2010 before the draft - tell me which QB was available then that would actually be an improvement over him? Bradford went number 1 overall, then the list of QBs that went after him goes:

    Tim Tebow
    Jimmy Clausen
    Colt McCoy
    Mike Kafka
    John Skelton, Jonathan Crompton
    Rusty Smith, Dan Levour, Joe Webb, Tony Pike
    Levi Brown, Sean Canfield, Zach Robinson

    Great QB class eh? They took a calculated risk and it didn't work out, JS said you should never panic.

    2011 was a better year for QBs, but still there was nobody that would have been available with our 3rd round pick had we not traded it away - we DID trade down into the 3rd with our 2nd to get an extra 4th (and moved up 3 space in the 5th, a pick that turned into Sherman, who knows if he'd have been available if we hadn't...), and that 2nd could have been used for Ryan Mallett, but there's no reason to believe he would be successful here.

    And blaming them for "whiffing on Flynn" is ridiculous (whoever does that), they signed a QB because they didn't have one, then drafted Russell Wilson, once again, if they decided not to sign Flynn then some keen GM decided to draft Wilson in the first round we wouldn't have ANY QB, so it was teh right move to make.

    I think they do just fine evaluationg QBs
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  • themunn wrote:To be honest, whilst I can see the FO looking at cornerbacks to upgrade over Trufant, someone like Cox won't be cheap, and certainly I don't think expensive players with a history of injuries will be looked at to upgrade over Thurmond, who is good enough to be the guy but has that injury history himself - Fletcher is a similar situation, but would be a lot cheaper so I can see them considering it, however, I think the cornerback we are looking for will either be drafted this year, or perhaps already on the roster between Maxwell and Lane, both of whom played adequately in relief of Browner.


    So first of all let me go ahead and define what I mean when I say "Bargain" and how I'm using that throughout this thread. When I say "Bargain", I mean someone who isn't going to be making the big dollars ... whose value is going to be knocked down because of either age, injury, weaknesses in their game, etc. That's how I'm defining it for the purposes of the discussion here.

    As far as Cox is concerned, I don't know that I'd agree that he's going to be able to get the big bucks come Free Agency. It bears repeating -- he's missed 17 games in the past 3 years ... AND he's been pretty much exclusively a Nickel CB. Now he's going to want to go somewhere where he's going to get a chance to start (and to be paid like a starter) ... but honestly, if I were in another team's shoes, there's no way I'm paying him like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't see another team going there with him.

    I would agree with you that of the two, Fletcher is the most likely target for this team ... AND that they will probably look to add a CB through the Draft. Totally agreed.

    themunn wrote:I don't perceive TE to be as much of a need as others either, Miller is a great all-around player, and McCoy is still young, improving every season and came up with some clutch catches himself, so a high-priced free agent signing is a low low priority (I know you're talking about bargains here, but do we really think Davis will go cheap? The Redskins franchised him last year and likely he will be looking for one of the bigger TE contracts out there - perhaps not Miller sized, but certainly something substantial.


    I would disagree there ... and Brock Huard definitely does as well. It was very interesting listening to Brock talk today, as he summed up my position perfectly when it comes to the TE position. He said he'd like a guy like an Aaron Hernandez who can really compliment Zack Miller and be that TE who could stretch the field. To me, as I'm looking at this FA class -- Fred Davis is a guy who could be that kind of TE. Do I believe he'll be cheap? Yes I know that he was Franchised last year ... but we're talking about a guy who missed over 1/2 the season with a torn Achilles tendon. Would you honestly franchise him and pay him the big bucks if you were the Redskins?

    Finally, the last of your picks I disagree with would be Kruger - who I agree would be a premium FA, but as a member of the soon-to-be-superbowl-champs ravens (in no universe can I ever consider the 49ers winning that game), he'll be looking to stay first and foremost, and while I'm not familiar with the Ravens' cap situation, I imagine they'll be happy to pay him what he deserves, especially with them losing Ray Lewis too - losing 2 starting linebackers in one offseason would be a difficult situation to overcome, so I imagine he'll fail to even reach the FA market.


    OK, here's the situation with the Ravens if you're not aware with what's going on with them. Baltimore right now has $15.7 million in available Cap Space. The big problem that they're facing right now is with Joe Flacco. According to John Clayton, Flacco already turned down a deal that will pay him $17 million/season and many experts out there believe that when it's all said and done that he will be making $20 million/year. That's a lot of bread there. On top of that, Dannell Ellerbe (Ray Lewis's successor) is also a FA and also deserves to be paid. He'll take up even more of the available cookies they have. If they can't get a deal done with Flacco, they're going to have to Franchise him (obviously) ... but even if they don't, the question is will they have the money to re-sign Paul Kruger. It's quite conceivable that he'll find himself out there on the open market because of all that.

    Lastly, I agree on what you wrote regarding Bryant ... and that above else the Hawks will be doing everything in their power (turning over every conceivable rock) in order to upgrade the DT and get that real true stud DE.
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  • Nice post.

    Please add Johnny Knox to your bargain receiver list. 4.3 speed, I think we should kick the tires.

    For TE, I am only interested in Jared Cook. Its very rare to find a TE with that kind of athleticism and speed. Jared clocked a 4.4 40 and I think Vernon Davis might be the only guy faster than him at the position.

    I prefer using the draft for DL but I want to take a hard look at Desmond Bryant.
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  • SDHawk wrote:Nice post.

    Please add Johnny Knox to your bargain receiver list. 4.3 speed, I think we should kick the tires.


    How ironic would THAT be, seeing how it was against us that he hurt his back. Hargrove's hit did a lot of damage and frankly, I'd be afraid that one more good one (given the nature of that injury) could paralyze him. If there's a basement bargain, it would certainly be him. I'd expect Schneider and company to do their due diligence on him ... but I don't know that I'd buy if I were Schneider.

    SDHawk wrote:For TE, I am only interested in Jared Cook. Its very rare to find a TE with that kind of athleticism and speed. Jared clocked a 4.4 40 and I think Vernon Davis might be the only guy faster than him at the position.


    He's an interesting name to be certain ... and probably the #1 target out there in FA as far as TE's are concerned. We'll see for sure. We'll see.

    SDHawk wrote:I prefer using the draft for DL but I want to take a hard look at Desmond Bryant.


    There's no rule to say that the Hawks can't do both. I would expect that Desmond Bryant and Vance Walker would both be names that Schneider will look in to once FA starts. But yes, I agree that drafting a DT is highly likely.
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  • I'm not sure how I feel about Hartline. Yeah, he posted a nice season, but he got nearly half his total yardage in just 3 games. I'd be worried about his consistency.

    As for Knox, until there's any indication from any even half-reliable source that he's close to physically able to return to the NFL, he's not worth the keystrokes it takes to type up anything on him. Dude's got spinal damage and has no idea if he'll be able to play football ever again.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about Hartline. Yeah, he posted a nice season, but he got nearly half his total yardage in just 3 games. I'd be worried about his consistency.


    That's an excellent point on Hartline and one of the real reasons that I don't believe he's going to make the big bucks out there in FA. Of the 74 catches and 1,083 yards he garnered this season ... these were his 3 biggest games ...





    Brian Hartline's 3 Most Productive Games 2012
    OpponentReceptionsYardsTouchdowns
    Raiders91110
    Cardinals122531
    Colts81070
    Grand Total294711


    So, 39% of all his catches and 43.5% of his entire yards came in just 3 games. And against the Hawks he only managed 2 catches for 17 yards.

    That's why I see him as not being all that expensive of a commodity (or certainly not worth paying the big money to). However, what you DO see from him is a propensity to get downfield and to make deep catches on a consistent basis. That's the lens that I'm looking at this through.

    volsunghawk wrote:As for Knox, until there's any indication from any even half-reliable source that he's close to physically able to return to the NFL, he's not worth the keystrokes it takes to type up anything on him. Dude's got spinal damage and has no idea if he'll be able to play football ever again.


    Completely agreed on that one. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:So, 39% of all his catches and 43.5% of his entire yards came in just 3 games. And against the Hawks he only managed 2 catches for 17 yards.



    You can say the same thing for Golden Tate against the NFC North: 42% of his catches, 37% of his yards and 71% of his touchdowns came in those four games. I am sure that all of us would be content if we had another Tate on our roster though. In fact, I fully expect one of those teams to make a very good offer to Tate when he becomes a free agent based on this year.
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  • Dustin Kller at TE and Troy Smith at QB.
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