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 Post subject: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:42 am 
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It would probably be one of these 3 options:

Sylvester Williams
Kawaan Short
Brandon Williams

Just curious, if John Schneider had you on speed dial and asked for your opinion, whom would you recommend of those 3?


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:10 am 
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Short

Do you think it is realistic to hope that Williams drops to round two?


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:20 am 
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I think there are going to be three runs. QB's, CB's DT's at some point during the draft that will push higher rated players down because of the we don't want to be left out. Only because there are not that many high end ones, WR's may get pushed down a lot because of this. DE's not sure hard to read with so many tweeners and LB's that could go either way.

It depends when that run starts I guess, if the CB QB runs are higher in the first I could see a few higher touted players start dropping as positions that were a need for some teams get thinner with the better players.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:33 am 
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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:47 am 
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I'm really not buying the Brandon Williams round one talk at all, especially to the Seahawks. I'm not sure what round I'd take him but it wouldn't be early.

Out of that three Short is the best option for what they need. I'm not totally ready to completely rule out one of the others falling into a position where Seattle can make a small move up the board. Richardson/Floyd/Short the guys to target for me.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:55 am 
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Short and I wouldn't even hesitate.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:35 am 
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Brandon Williams by a hair over Short but would be happy with either.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:17 am 
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Short becausemostreports I have read say he has a quick, penetrating move at the snap of the ball.

I prefer Sheldon Richardson because of his activeness on a mediocre team. I wish I could have seen some of his games but all reports say he is relentless and that is the kind of motivater we want on the line, not to mention his production.

Otherwise I'd only take Sharif if Quinn says he is good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:27 am 
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Short definately looked good during the senior bowl and would be my pick but Sylvester Williams would probably be right there close w/ him. Brandon is one of those intriguing prospects because of his speed to size ratio. I would probably grab him if he is hanging around our late 3rd or 4th round picks.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:25 am 
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Tough, but I would go with Sylvester Williams because he fits the Pete Carroll mold for DT. Of the three Short has the best quickness but not the size of the other two, Brandon Williams has the best size but is not as quick as the other two, and Sylvester has the best combination of size/quickness of the three.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:21 pm 
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My pick is Kawann Short, but I have a hunch Brandon Williams could make a lot of teams regret passing on him. Sylvester Williams looks the part physically, but the more I watch of him the less I am impressed. Watched a game the other day where he got stonewalled for what must have been 8 plays in a row, then he finally swims past and charges the QB, only to find out that it was a screen play all along. That game I'm not sure if he had a pressure that didn't come on a screen play. That plus UNC has a pretty horrific NFL track record in very recent times. Motivation / work ethic is a real problem coming out of there.

theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
I'm really not buying the Brandon Williams round one talk at all, especially to the Seahawks. I'm not sure what round I'd take him but it wouldn't be early.

Out of that three Short is the best option for what they need. I'm not totally ready to completely rule out one of the others falling into a position where Seattle can make a small move up the board. Richardson/Floyd/Short the guys to target for me.


Per Rob Rang, NFL people he talked to said Brandon Williams is currently on the same draft tier as Sylvester Williams and Kawaan Short. This came the day after a similar report from Daniel Jeremiah of NFL Network. Nobody said round 1, but technically Short and Sylvester Williams aren't round 1 guys either. If Seattle takes a DT at #25, they'd be reaching and I think a trade down could be very likely.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:05 pm 
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The thing is, this is a guy none of us have really watched. I'd love to know how much tape Rang and Jeremiah have watched and while I appreciate the Senior Bowl work-outs, they can be as misleading as they are helpful. I know I've only watched one of Williams' games and it was hardly spectacular stuff. And that's all we've got to go at really -- that one game on Youtube. I've watched Kawann Short play nearly ten times.

He's a big dude. But I'll argue all day with anyone saying he's on the same tier as Short and Williams because of a Senior Bowl work out. On tape Short and Williams consistently get off blocks, make plays in the backfield. The one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb in that Williams video was that he can't get off a block, even at that small school level. I watched the Senior Bowl and the same thing showed up -- he was completely ineffective while Williams and Short were living in the backfield making play after play.

Maybe I'm premature saying, "meh" off one game. But to say he's a possible first round talent based on that evidence seems even more premature, especially when it's not that great. I just don't get how suddenly we're talking about this guy as a possible R1 Seahawks pick based on such limited evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I have to agree with Rob on this one. While I'm no expert or tape junkie, I like to think that my years of fandom combined with voracious reading and dabbling in film give me a decent idea of a prospects ability. And what I see in B. Williams is an athletic big man with little or no experience against even average offensive line talent. I believe this will lead to at least one year as a rotational player in order o learn the game.

Generally when a team spends first round draft capital on a player, they expect them to contribute right away. Imho, B. Williams is D. Poe lite, and in the case of Dontari Poe, whose athleticism was off the charts, Kansas City decided he was worth waiting for.

I don't think B. Williams is going to test as well at the combine, so he won't have that wow factor that makes a team forget all about their hours, weeks and months of scouting in order to draft a man that looks good in shorts.

So personally, I think he will last until the 3rd round based on small school status and because of Poe,who only managed to accumulate 38 tackles, 0 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Just to prove how difficult it is to judge these work outs, this was Tony Pauline's Tuesday report of Brandon Williams at the Senior Bowl: "Has NFL type size and shows a good degree of lower body strength but was easily handled and really needs to elevate his play here."


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:08 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
The thing is, this is a guy none of us have really watched. I'd love to know how much tape Rang and Jeremiah have watched and while I appreciate the Senior Bowl work-outs, they can be as misleading as they are helpful.


Rob,

Jeremiah and Rang are not providing their opinions. They are reporting what they have been told about Williams' stock from NFL sources (presumably execs, scouts, etc). And they didn't say "round 1", they said "same tier" (paraphrasing) as Sylvester Williams and Kawann Short who are currently graded roughly in the 2nd round.

Reason I asked the question regarding our #25 is because those 3 DTs will be the best DT options at #25, (even though none of them currently have 1st round grades).


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:20 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
Just to prove how difficult it is to judge these work outs, this was Tony Pauline's Tuesday report of Brandon Williams at the Senior Bowl: "Has NFL type size and shows a good degree of lower body strength but was easily handled and really needs to elevate his play here."


I remember watching Wilson in last year's Senior Bowl and thinking he looked like the same exact QB he was at Wisconsin. I had to shake my head when many of his Senior Bowl reviews were negative- basically because he had a pick that wasn't even really on him 100%. Some of them even claimed that his height was a factor in that game, which if you had a clue you'd know was totally not true. I thought Wilson was the best QB in that game, but he was treated like an afterthought. Kind of pissed me off that people could be so blind.

I think it was that experience where I decided I'd never trust a 3rd party evaluation ever again. Too many idiots out there that are completely clueless at evaluation.

I didn't watch this year's Senior Bowl. However, my take on that one youtube video was pretty much the opposite of yours. It's okay to disagree sometimes. I'm not saying that Brandon Williams is a slam dunk, I just really like what he could be capable of.

My initial impression was negative as well, but when I went back and watched I noticed how uncomfortable he made the offensive line when he had that quick first step. He was getting into the backfield pretty often too. Thing about DTs, it's one of those positions where skill can be trumped by physical ability. I think Carroll and Quinn seem to favor those kinds of young players. Red Bryant, Bruce Irvin, and Greg Scruggs were all guys that had more physical ability than skill.

I think that is why they were seen interviewing Sylvester Williams, because he's a guy with a ton of physical ability as well (and in my opinion, really needs to work on his game). I think there is a good chance that Seattle would be happy drafting any of the 3 of them. Hopefully that means they consider DT in round 2 instead.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:40 pm 
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ivotuk wrote:
So personally, I think he will last until the 3rd round based on small school status and because of Poe,who only managed to accumulate 38 tackles, 0 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles.


Poe had 5 sacks in college. Williams had 29. And Poe played against low level competition, too.

I think of Poe as a pretty bad football player that ran a really amazing forty time on a track. Williams isn't really fast, he's fast for his size in the same sense that Brock Osweiler was fast for his size. Williams reminds me more of Haloti Ngata or maybe Red Bryant. Quick off the snap and "Country strong" after it. He's the type of player that can dominate when he puts it all together on a given play.

You aren't going to find monster a DT after the top few picks without taking having to take a risk. If Pete and Quinn think they see promise in him, I say "why not?" He's not my first choice, but if Seattle took him he'd instantly be our most intriguing draft pick.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Richardson. If we can't get him I'd be happy trading back 5+spots and we would still get one of those guys. I really wish we had drafted Fletcher Cox last year.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:40 am 
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kearly wrote:
My initial impression was negative as well, but when I went back and watched I noticed how uncomfortable he made the offensive line when he had that quick first step. He was getting into the backfield pretty often too. Thing about DTs, it's one of those positions where skill can be trumped by physical ability. I think Carroll and Quinn seem to favor those kinds of young players. Red Bryant, Bruce Irvin, and Greg Scruggs were all guys that had more physical ability than skill.

I think that is why they were seen interviewing Sylvester Williams, because he's a guy with a ton of physical ability as well (and in my opinion, really needs to work on his game). I think there is a good chance that Seattle would be happy drafting any of the 3 of them. Hopefully that means they consider DT in round 2 instead.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the tape, but I still don't see any chance what so ever of him being Seattle's pick in round one. They've stressed 'pass rush' as the greatest need. Nothing I've seen so far has said this guy is going to be a great pass rusher. Effective nose tackle, perhaps. Short is on another level as a pass rusher it's not even close. Sly Williams is more of a one technique IMO, but he has a swim move for the ages. Brandon Williams is just a big dude.

If his athleticism is as good as people say, he'll show it at the combine and he could be a relatively high pick (still don't think R1). The Seahawks need someone who can get off a block and penetrate. I didn't see any of that during the Senior Bowl game (he was a complete non-factor) and I didn't see it against Lincoln college or whoever he was playing in that video. He has to dominate Lincoln college for me to get even remotely excited, and he didn't dominate them.

On the other hand, the Seahawks can feel very comfortable if they're at #25 and Kawann Short is the only DT left worthy of a pick in R1. He is far better than I initially presumed and is just what this team needs. Age bothers me (24 -- old like irvin) but he is constantly making splash plays. Another guy to watch - Jordan Hill at Penn State. Has as good a chance as anyone to be the 'Geno Atkins' of this draft class.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:48 am 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
Jordan Hill at Penn State. Has as good a chance as anyone to be the 'Geno Atkins' of this draft class.


I was just about to make a thread about Hill.

Not the biggest or most athletic guy, but his motor is non-stop and he gets off blocks well. Closes quick once he's gets free too. Granted, I only saw two videos of him, and one was essentially the game of his career against Wisconsin, but I'm very intrigued.

I'd be thrilled with him in the 4th, and wouldn't be at all upset if we took him in the 3rd.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Anyone else see Short being a solid 5-tech?

Trade Matt Flynn and a 2nd rounder to move up the 1st to take Sheldon Richardson, then use our own 1st on Kawann Short.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:19 pm 
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kearly wrote:
Red Bryant, Bruce Irvin, and Greg Scruggs were all guys that had more physical ability than skill.


The current state of the D-line doesn't really endorse such a strategy. We wouldn't be here talking about first-round DT's if it did.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:17 pm 
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I could see us taking Short at 25 and then coming back in to grab a big WR or available DE.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:59 pm 
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By coming back I meant trading up in the draft from our 2nd round pick.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:30 pm 
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SDHawk wrote:
Anyone else see Short being a solid 5-tech?

Trade Matt Flynn and a 2nd rounder to move up the 1st to take Sheldon Richardson, then use our own 1st on Kawann Short.


We already have one of the leagues best 5 techDE's.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:55 pm 
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McGruff wrote:
SDHawk wrote:
Anyone else see Short being a solid 5-tech?

Trade Matt Flynn and a 2nd rounder to move up the 1st to take Sheldon Richardson, then use our own 1st on Kawann Short.


We already have one of the leagues best 5 techDE's.


Not sure about one of the leagues best, but I get your point.

I only mention because members are slotting Kawann in as a 3 Tech but I could see him as a capable 5 tech that can gobble up space the same way Big Red does. Kawann is great at shedding blocks and needed to be constantly doubled in college. Great at stopping the run and a great tackler but overrated as pass rusher, IMO. Him next to Sheldon Richardson would cause alot of problems.


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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:01 pm 
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McGruff wrote:
SDHawk wrote:
Anyone else see Short being a solid 5-tech?

Trade Matt Flynn and a 2nd rounder to move up the 1st to take Sheldon Richardson, then use our own 1st on Kawann Short.


We already have one of the leagues best 5 techDE's.


And he has a foot problem that may or may not be a big deal going forward. Antonio Gates has never really recovered from his plantar fasciitis.

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 Post subject: Re: If Seattle did draft a DT at #25...
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:56 am 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on the tape, but I still don't see any chance what so ever of him being Seattle's pick in round one. They've stressed 'pass rush' as the greatest need. Nothing I've seen so far has said this guy is going to be a great pass rusher. Effective nose tackle, perhaps. Short is on another level as a pass rusher it's not even close. Sly Williams is more of a one technique IMO, but he has a swim move for the ages. Brandon Williams is just a big dude.

If his athleticism is as good as people say, he'll show it at the combine and he could be a relatively high pick (still don't think R1). The Seahawks need someone who can get off a block and penetrate. I didn't see any of that during the Senior Bowl game (he was a complete non-factor) and I didn't see it against Lincoln college or whoever he was playing in that video. He has to dominate Lincoln college for me to get even remotely excited, and he didn't dominate them.

On the other hand, the Seahawks can feel very comfortable if they're at #25 and Kawann Short is the only DT left worthy of a pick in R1. He is far better than I initially presumed and is just what this team needs. Age bothers me (24 -- old like irvin) but he is constantly making splash plays. Another guy to watch - Jordan Hill at Penn State. Has as good a chance as anyone to be the 'Geno Atkins' of this draft class.


I thought it was interesting that Mike Mayock compared Kawann Short to Jerel Worthy. Worthy was my favorite DT in last year's draft, and Worthy had a very similar draft stock situation. I see Short as being kind of a Mebane type 3-tech, in that he has to win in the first half second off the snap and if he doesn't, he's usually a non-factor. As much as I like Short, I am not really convinced he solves our problem. I don't see Jordan Hill as another Geno Atkins, but I do like him more for what Seattle needs at 3-tech than Short or Sylvester Williams, who play like 1-tech / 3-tech hybrids.

What intrigues me about Brandon Williams is his potential to dominate physically. If Pete got the most out of Brandon Williams you'd have a hell of a player, even if he wasn't a traditional 3-tech.

Sylvester Williams scares me a little. If Seattle drafted him it would feel a lot like when they drafted Carpenter at #25. He seems destined to be a NFL roster worthy player but not much more. He has a nice looking swim move but only seems to get results with it when the offensive line wants him to. On most plays, he is mercilessly stonewalled. I think what we need isn't sacks, it is reasonably consistent pressure, or at least pushing the pocket. Brandon Williams and Kawann Short are much more promising in those two areas, IMO. If Seattle drafted Sylvester Williams, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt like I would have with Zach Brown last year, but it's not a pick I want to see happen.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:
kearly wrote:
Red Bryant, Bruce Irvin, and Greg Scruggs were all guys that had more physical ability than skill.


The current state of the D-line doesn't really endorse such a strategy. We wouldn't be here talking about first-round DT's if it did.


I wasn't talking about strategy, I was talking about tendencies. Besides, if you are looking for a polished can't miss pass rusher, you should probably start looking at 2014 options and hope for the best.

I agree with your intentions here, but that would mean addressing DL with non-trivial free agent additions or making a very expensive trade up in the draft. I'd be for either move, but I'm guessing that won't happen, and instead we'll see the team have it's pick of a variety of imperfect options. Past history indicates it will probably be a player with more ability than skill, for better or worse.


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