Will Chris Clemons be on 2013's final roster?

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  • I don't begrudge the Seahawks for extending Chris Clemons last summer. It sounds like Clemons was likely holding out, and Seattle really didn't have a choice. They did the right thing signing him that extension.

    But coming off a knee injury that Clemons won't be fully recovered from in either 2013 or 2014, is Clemons worth paying to keep around? His cap hit next year is $8.17 million. It's $9.67 million the year after that. His guaranteed money is only $2.16 million each year, meaning that if Seattle cut Clemons today they'd only have $4.33 million total dead money over the next two years.

    I'm wondering this because if Clemons is not a realistic option to come back in 2013, Seattle would best served releasing Clemons before the season so as to increase Seattle's cap rollover number for the next season. It would be crazy to pay Clemons $8 million next season if he is likely to be a shell of his old self. He's 32 years old on a bad knee next season.

    Kind of a tough situation to be in. This could impact Seattle's plans in free agency as well. Should be interesting to see what they do.
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  • It's a difficult one as we clearly don't gave anyone on the roster to take his place as any everydown lineman. A lot will depend on how his injury progresses, but that's quite some saving that would be made by cutting him. I'm sure that they'd love to keep him around, but they're probably not going to want to pay him for reduced returns.

    When do they commit to paying his full salary? I guess it's a bit of a moot point as the decision will likely need to be made prior to the draft/FA.

    Can't we just keep him and sue Dan Snyder for his salary?
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  • Yes. He doesn't have a lot of miles on him, and he is a guy that works his butt off in the weight room. I believe he'll be ready and have a year like Patrick K. did a couple of years ago when he was written off by the Falcons. Clem will be an important part of the team. If the Hawks let him go it will be over money, and I think that would be a mistake. The guy is going to be ready and motivated. He knows that he could have made the difference and we could have been a Superbowl team. He'll come back and play out his contract and then some.
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  • SharkHawk wrote:Yes. He doesn't have a lot of miles on him, and he is a guy that works his butt off in the weight room. I believe he'll be ready and have a year like Patrick K. did a couple of years ago when he was written off by the Falcons.


    As much as I'd like to share the optimism, the comparison doesn't really work. Kerney had a ton pectoral muscle, which recovers in less time than an ACL and doesn't have the lifelong consequences. And he was 29 years old when it happened. Clemons had a torn ACL, at age 32. And it's not his first ACL tear, either.

    To be honest, I'll be a little surprised if Clemons ever plays another down for us again. At his age and with that injury, he'd probably be 70% of his usual self next season, which means he'd probably hurt our pass rush more than help it. That plus the salary situation makes it too hard not to release him for cap reasons since the freed up money will roll into 2014 where they badly need it.

    Really sucks for a variety of reasons. The only way I see this not happening is if Clemons has an even more miraculous ACL recovery than AP had last year while simultaneously playing better than his age. It could happen, but I'd classify it just shy of a miracle if it did.

    This situation reminds me a lot of when Walter Jones went down in the Dallas game. He was having a great season that year and a lot of us hoped he'd beat that injury and make it back, but he never did. We ended up putting off finding Walt's replacement for a couple extra years because of that. That didn't really matter back then- the Seahawks sucked badly and were going nowhere fast anyway. By contrast, this team is a SB favorite and their decision at LEO is absolutely critical to whether they could win a SB or not. Talk about a tough situation.

    I'd really love to see Clemons bounce back and finish his contract, but the more I think about it, the more improbable that seems.
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  • I love Clem but I do not think he will be on the 53-man roster Week 1. Either he will be on PUP or they will cut him. That injury was brutal for the team and him...but that's life in the NFL.

    Hope he makes a miraculous recovery but I doubt it.
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  • I have thought the same thing myself Kearly. Sacks drop off after 30 much of the time as proven by our own Free Agent signings in the past. I suspect yes , he will be cut or some sort of agreement made to remove him from the books.
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  • kearly wrote:I don't begrudge the Seahawks for extending Chris Clemons last summer. It sounds like Clemons was likely holding out, and Seattle really didn't have a choice. They did the right thing signing him that extension.

    But coming off a knee injury that Clemons won't be fully recovered from in either 2013 or 2014, is Clemons worth paying to keep around? His cap hit next year is $8.17 million. It's $9.67 million the year after that. His guaranteed money is only $2.16 million each year, meaning that if Seattle cut Clemons today they'd only have $4.33 million total dead money over the next two years.

    I'm wondering this because if Clemons is not a realistic option to come back in 2013, Seattle would best served releasing Clemons before the season so as to increase Seattle's cap rollover number for the next season. It would be crazy to pay Clemons $8 million next season if he is likely to be a shell of his old self. He's 32 years old on a bad knee next season.

    Kind of a tough situation to be in. This could impact Seattle's plans in free agency as well. Should be interesting to see what they do.


    I said he would not be, made a thread about it, then got flamed by everyone. Why would they keep him and pay him when you can get someone else younger to replace him.
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  • According to Rotoworld, $1.5M of his 2013 is guaranteed, so cutting him in 2013 would save $4.5M in 2013 and $7.5M in 2014.

    I think he re-works his deal or he's gone. It's a cruel business, but a business nonetheless.
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  • He's gone.

    He'll be 32 for Christ sake. There aren't that many effective 32 year old DEs in the league that are healthy, let alone ones coming off ACL tears.
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  • Isn't it more likely he reworks a deal or is released and resigned cheaper/less cap hit. He insisted on a new deal last year for this exact reason. It makes him (his agent) the smart one. Now he gets paid on his current contract. If he still has gas in the tank, which we all hope, he makes a great comeback over the next 2 seasons on a vet-minimum base - heavily incentivized contract. I think that makes the most sense because it minimizes the risk to both parties. Of course, if there is another team out there willing to sign him to a bigger contract, he should go there. I just don't think there will be a market.
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  • Evil_Shenanigans wrote:Blasphemy!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlZ_BPzj8xc&feature=player_detailpage#t=53s

    That's it, cut the guy who lead your team in sacks for the last 3 years, when you have no real alternative in house! Hoping that you stumble across someone in FA or the draft that is even close to his skill set? Clem will be back stronger than ever!


    It's shocking that someone with a Clemons avatar would respond this way!

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  • It'll depend on two things:

    1. Obviously his health. Can he recover enough and in time to be effective?

    2. DE's in free agency and draft. Did we bring in a replacement(s) for Clem.

    We all saw how ineffective our pressure was in the Atlanta game without Clemons. Pete and John sure as hell don't want to watch that for 16 weeks next year. If they're unable to bring in another top DE in free agency or the draft, then they'll have no choice but to keep Clemons and hope he recovers enough to be effective.
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  • Clem will be back. He had Andrews do his surgery and has a 6-8 month recovery timetable. Guys are coming back from torn ACLs faster and stronger than ever. Granted, he is older, but he also has far less mileage than the average 30+ DE and still appears to be in peak physical condition. Not saying he'll bounce back like Peterson, but remember that Peterson also tore his MCL last year.
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  • kearly wrote:
    SharkHawk wrote:Yes. He doesn't have a lot of miles on him, and he is a guy that works his butt off in the weight room. I believe he'll be ready and have a year like Patrick K. did a couple of years ago when he was written off by the Falcons.


    As much as I'd like to share the optimism, the comparison doesn't really work. Kerney had a ton pectoral muscle, which recovers in less time than an ACL and doesn't have the lifelong consequences. And he was 29 years old when it happened. Clemons had a torn ACL, at age 32. And it's not his first ACL tear, either.

    To be honest, I'll be a little surprised if Clemons ever plays another down for us again. At his age and with that injury, he'd probably be 70% of his usual self next season, which means he'd probably hurt our pass rush more than help it. That plus the salary situation makes it too hard not to release him for cap reasons since the freed up money will roll into 2014 where they badly need it.

    Really sucks for a variety of reasons. The only way I see this not happening is if Clemons has an even more miraculous ACL recovery than AP had last year while simultaneously playing better than his age. It could happen, but I'd classify it just shy of a miracle if it did.

    This situation reminds me a lot of when Walter Jones went down in the Dallas game. He was having a great season that year and a lot of us hoped he'd beat that injury and make it back, but he never did. We ended up putting off finding Walt's replacement for a couple extra years because of that. That didn't really matter back then- the Seahawks sucked badly and were going nowhere fast anyway. By contrast, this team is a SB favorite and their decision at LEO is absolutely critical to whether they could win a SB or not. Talk about a tough situation.

    I'd really love to see Clemons bounce back and finish his contract, but the more I think about it, the more improbable that seems.


    It is a sad situation for Clemons and the Hawks. You don't want to just cut him after the results he gave us the last two years. But his contract is too expensive to keep if he can't make it for the regular season and play at a very high level.

    I have a feeling there will be a middle ground where both he and the organization give enough to each other to keep him on the team. It makes sense for both sides. No one is going to give him a contract for much with that injury and his age. We would still have a shot at getting him near full speed for the latter half of 2013 and a hopeful Super Bowl run next season.

    It is just the reality of the situation. I know it sucks, but that is life in the NFL.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:It'll depend on two things:

    1. Obviously his health. Can he recover enough and in time to be effective?

    2. DE's in free agency and draft. Did we bring in a replacement(s) for Clem.

    We all saw how ineffective our pressure was in the Atlanta game without Clemons. Pete and John sure as hell don't want to watch that for 16 weeks next year. If they're unable to bring in another top DE in free agency or the draft, then they'll have no choice but to keep Clemons and hope he recovers enough to be effective.


    I think this pretty much sums it up. There are factors in play that will determine what happens, but there is no way to know yet. I really hope he can come back, I am a huge Clem fan.
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  • Lets get the cap hit right - someone correct me if I am wrong :)

    Signing bonus is spread on the years of the contract when you sign the contract. When you cut a player the number remaining is added up under that year.

    $6.5M signing bonus -- $2.2M / year then $1.5 guaranteed for next year in my calculation that makes the

    2013 cap hit if you cut him almost $5.9million
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  • Is the deadline to decide this just by the final cutdown to 53?

    If so, I hope the Hawks wait till the last possible moment to see if Clem can come back close to what he was.
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  • I think he ends up on PUP then maybe IR if that doesn't pan out. I doubt he's cut from the team entirely, though. Despite his age, the guy doesn't have a bad injury history and prior to becoming our Leo, he was not used much by any of his previous teams.
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  • They will sign this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlKDo_m694

    and cut Clem. Why waste that money? Same age, but one is healthy and one will not be.

    They will then draft another DE. Bank on it.
    Last edited by ImTheScientist on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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  • ACL tears aren't even that big of a deal anymore to recover from.

    AP is an anomaly, but a lot of players play at high levels after surgery these days. Can Clem recover? Who knows.

    Puts us in another position of need and a critical one.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:They will sign this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlKDo_m694

    and cut Clem. Why waste that money? Same age, but one is healthy and one will not be.

    They will then draft another DE. Bank on it.


    Agree, I like Clemons but is it worth waiting to see if he comes back 100% and sacrifice cap space potentially risking not being able to extend Browner, KJ, or Chancellor? No way, I think we will probably have to start getting ahead of the cap prior to hitting it and that means getting Flynn out of here with Obo and Clemons getting an injury settlement. That probably clears up enough space to stash away for the young core and adds some to snag a FA DE and DT, possibly another LB or WR/TE we need. Sucks but that's the reality with a salary cap, really benefits teams that draft and develop well and not big spenders paying for previous production.

    They probably need to look at maybe unloading Red and signing Branch for less as well(he can play inside and outside, offers more than Bryant) but I'm not sure messing with the leadership of the defense would be worth it; that is something to take into account for the locker room. Of course they could spin it as Branch outplayed Bryant and are rewarding him for that.
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  • The cap hit saving would be $2.27 in 2013 and some $7 million in 2014

    That is not a lot of savings for 2013. Now the financial saving is much more significant for 2013 if you don't think he will play then you are looking at actually saving $7+ millions by cutting him since you already spent the signing bonus you would only be on the hook for the guaranteed $1.5 million

    I think you let him come back see how things look and if you think he plays in 2013 you keep him. If that works out great if it doesn't work out you cut him before 2014 which has the biggest saving on the cap and in "real" money
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  • mikeak wrote:Lets get the cap hit right - someone correct me if I am wrong :)

    Signing bonus is spread on the years of the contract when you sign the contract. When you cut a player the number remaining is added up under that year.

    $6.5M signing bonus -- $2.2M / year then $1.5 guaranteed for next year in my calculation that makes the

    2013 cap hit if you cut him almost $5.9million


    I really should start using rotoworld. Spotrac sucks.

    It's $3.66 million in dead money if you cut him in 2013. If the 2014 signing bonus money is accelerated into 2013 then it rises to $5.83 million, but it's really the same difference with the new cap rollover rules (since whatever money we save in 2013 goes towards 2014's cap number). Basically you are looking at paying $5.83 million without Clemons over two years or paying $17.83 million with him, a difference of $12 million. If Clemons was a UFA with that knee at age 32, do you think he'd get a 2/12 contract offer? I don't.

    But the larger issue is, if you are Seattle and your pass rush depends on one player so much, you don't want to be banking on a guy that will very likely be performing on a 2009 Patrick Kerney level. Overpaying him while doing it is a double whammy.

    If I were JS, I'd be going hard after Cliff Avril, and if I didn't get him, I'd sign Osi and then check up on Clemons in August. If my understanding is correct, Clemons won't see much or any of his non-guaranteed money before the real games start.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:They will sign this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlKDo_m694

    and cut Clem. Why waste that money? Same age, but one is healthy and one will not be.

    They will then draft another DE. Bank on it.


    I feel obligated to say that those highlights were pre-2012, but I generally agree with the spirit of this post. It would be surprising if Umenyiora didn't have more in the tank than an unhealthy Clemons would.

    The thing about Umenyiora is, he's not just a pass rusher- he's just a really good football player. He's strong, has good awareness, can separate from blocks, and plays the run well. He can pretty much do it all. Doesn't have blinding speed but makes up for it in other areas. Can't stress enough how much he reminds me of Raheem Brock's situation in 2010. I don't think Umenyiora alone fixes our problem even in 2013, but he'd be a good start.

    Osi Umenyiora had 10 forced fumbles in 2010. This guy creates turnovers. Makes me want to finally create a twitter account and tweet that to Pete. That would catch his attention.

    Loved the music in that video btw. Pretty cool how 80's/early 90's elements are making their way back into the music biz.
    Last edited by kearly on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • kearly wrote:I feel obligated to say that those highlights were pre-2012, but I generally agree with the spirit of this post. It would be surprising if Umenyiora didn't have more in the tank than an unhealthy Clemons would.

    The thing about Umenyiora is, he's not just a pass rusher- he's just a really good football player. He's strong, has good awareness, can separate from blocks, and plays the run well. He can pretty much do it all. Doesn't have blinding speed but makes up for it in other areas. Can't stress enough how much he reminds me of Raheem Brock's situation in 2010. I don't think Umenyiora alone fixes our problem even in 2013, but he'd be a good start.


    I agree regarding Umenyiora, I really think we desperately need to add either Umenyiora or Cliff Avril through free agency, then add another pass rusher or two through the draft. Prepare for the worst case scenario which is assume Clemons won't be able to produce sacks for us anymore.

    I know some people are worried about Umenyiora's production this season, but I think it's important to keep into perspective that the whole Giants defensive line had struggled and underperformed all year. Neither Jason Pierre-Paul nor Justin Tuck had a year people expected of them either.

    Keeping in mind the Giant's defensive line underachievement this year, coupled with the fact that the Giants have a wealth of DEs that they rotate, and a case can be made that Umenyiora still has a lot left in the tank.

    Whether Umenyiora maintains the drive and intensity after being a SB champion and getting a new contract remains to be seen, however.
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  • When I watched Osi this year, which wasn't very often admittedly, he looked like the same exact guy. I think he's got at least one good year left in him, and it's not uncommon for pass rushers to produce at age 31/32 if healthy. Health is really my only worry with him.
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  • kearly wrote:
    mikeak wrote:Lets get the cap hit right - someone correct me if I am wrong :)

    Signing bonus is spread on the years of the contract when you sign the contract. When you cut a player the number remaining is added up under that year.

    $6.5M signing bonus -- $2.2M / year then $1.5 guaranteed for next year in my calculation that makes the

    2013 cap hit if you cut him almost $5.9million


    I really should start using rotoworld. Spotrac sucks.

    It's $3.66 million in dead money if you cut him in 2013. If the 2014 signing bonus money is accelerated into 2013 then it rises to $5.83 million, but it's really the same difference with the new cap rollover rules (since whatever money we save in 2013 goes towards 2014's cap number). Basically you are looking at paying $5.83 million without Clemons over two years or paying $17.83 million with him, a difference of $12 million. If Clemons was a UFA with that knee at age 32, do you think he'd get a 2/12 contract offer? I don't.

    .


    But lets focus on 2013. The 2014 signing bonus would be moved into 2013. Making it $5.83 million so against the cap next year the saving is only some $2.7million. If you think he plays then the upside is to small for me to not take the risk. Then you look at 2014 separately it doesn't make sense to look at this as a 2 year deal. for 2014 there is no guaranteed money from what I am seeing and the signing bonus would only be the $2.2 million so there is a much bigger issue with keeping him in 2014. If he shows in 2013 he can perform - ok keep him / restructure. If he can't perform in 2013 then cut him........
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  • The 2013 money isn't that important. We have more money this year than we could spend realistically. The 2014 money is what's critical. That's when we have our first big wave of free agents to find money for.

    I think for me the money part is the lesser half of the equation. If Seattle goes into next summer and finds out that Clemons is basically going to have the type of season that Carpenter had last year where he plays a few games and then gets IR'd again, then it's too late to replace him- the FA period and draft have already passed. The time to think about life after Clemons is right now, and Seattle should only hold out hope for Clemons after more realistic options have already fallen through.
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  • I anticipate that Chris Clemons may start the season on PUP.

    In any case, they will not cut an injuried player without (in Clemons case) a significant settlement payment. I fully expect Clemons to be around next year.
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  • I'm betting that he's ready to go week 1.
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  • That would be something if he can heal that quickly. :th2thumbs:
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  • JSeahawks wrote:I'm betting that he's ready to go week 1.


    That seems likely. The real question is this: will he be 95% in week 1 or 70%? If he's like 2009 Patrick Kerney, I don't think I'd want him back, especially at his price tag.

    Jville wrote:I anticipate that Chris Clemons may start the season on PUP.

    In any case, they will not cut an injuried player without (in Clemons case) a significant settlement payment. I fully expect Clemons to be around next year.


    Not sure if an injury settlement will apply. That's usually done for players that are not on long contracts (camp bodies, etc). Further, the settlement is usually based off of how much time the player will miss because of that injury. In Clemons' case, he will technically be recovered by August, but he probably won't be 100%. If Seattle cuts him, he can sign with other teams right away and try to play in 2013. He's also covered by the NFL's health care policy since he's played 3 years, and he's already made millions of dollars. So (could be wrong), I don't see an injury settlement as being in play here.

    If my understanding is correct, players on the PUP/IR still receive full compensation. Seattle can't really afford to pay Clemons another $8+ million to sit on PUP/IR. They would/should only take that chance with Clemons if they are optimistic about his recovery. In the meantime, Seattle will have to make decisions in March/April that will tip their hand as to what their intentions with Clemons are. If it were me, I'd plan for life after Clemons right now, look into Cliff Avril, talk to teams about moving up for Werner/Moore/Jones, etc. Even if I thought Clemons was coming back, I'd sign Umenyiora at the very least. We need some real injury depth at LEO and Irvin isn't it.

    Might have to carry an extra DL this year, going to be an interesting offseason.
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  • James Andrews also did Marcus Lattimore's knee and has said he'll be ready to go for their first game next season. Shredding a knee isn't as big of a deal now as it was even 5 years ago. The procedure is just getting better and better. It's realistic anymore to believe that Chris Clemons could have an impact on the field for the Seahawks next year and probably until he decides to retire.
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  • Also remember that you can bring one guy back from IR after 6 games and I wouldn't be surprised to see this expanded to two players this year

    Because of the "small" difference cutting him this year vs 2014 I say he will probably be back so they can see how well he will do. Now if it is one of those full contract guaranteed if he is on rosterd March 1 etc then everything is out the window
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  • I for one, want to see Clem recover and make it back healthy, but I also do not see the Hawks giving up on the hunt for DE players until they have it covered with depth.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    kearly wrote:I don't begrudge the Seahawks for extending Chris Clemons last summer. It sounds like Clemons was likely holding out, and Seattle really didn't have a choice. They did the right thing signing him that extension.

    But coming off a knee injury that Clemons won't be fully recovered from in either 2013 or 2014, is Clemons worth paying to keep around? His cap hit next year is $8.17 million. It's $9.67 million the year after that. His guaranteed money is only $2.16 million each year, meaning that if Seattle cut Clemons today they'd only have $4.33 million total dead money over the next two years.

    I'm wondering this because if Clemons is not a realistic option to come back in 2013, Seattle would best served releasing Clemons before the season so as to increase Seattle's cap rollover number for the next season. It would be crazy to pay Clemons $8 million next season if he is likely to be a shell of his old self. He's 32 years old on a bad knee next season.

    Kind of a tough situation to be in. This could impact Seattle's plans in free agency as well. Should be interesting to see what they do.


    I said he would not be, made a thread about it, then got flamed by everyone. Why would they keep him and pay him when you can get someone else younger to replace him.


    Because the replacement isn't very good at playing his position. For all the talk about his ability to rush the passer Clemons is extremely good against the run for such a light player.

    Irvin was on skates in the Atlanta game, I think Irvin for now is still only a 3rd down rusher. In the future who knows.
    WestcoastSteve
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  • Yeah, Irvin got pushed around by Atlanta and it was painful to watch. That didn't happen much with Clem.
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    olyfan63
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  • He'll be back with a vengeance! Just in time for our Superbowl run!
    #NEXTMANUP
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    Evil_Shenanigans
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  • Dwight Freeney is the same age as Clem.
    P-Rich fo life
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    ImTheScientist
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  • Has anyone actually looked at the age of the DE's with the most sacks in the NFL? Well over half are over the age of 30 and of the top ten with sacks it is closer to 70%. Also Clemons is 3 months into 31 not 32..... :lol: He is in his prime according to those stats, tied at 11th most sacks in the NFL.

    I would put my money on Clemons returning next year.
    CEHawk
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  • Evil_Shenanigans wrote: Clem will be back stronger than ever!



    You're a doctor or...?
    TJH
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