A Cautionary Tale…

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A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:04 pm
  • All the talk of fans who feel it’s their right to act in a way that suits their own agenda, despite the aftermath of their actions, be they only perceived effects or as this tale will show become actual devastating consequences.

    At the dawn of a new era of exciting and promising Seahawk football, that’s whipping the Twelve Man into a boisterous chest thumping lather, I’m reminded of another golden age in this franchise history. A time of equal promise and excitement, a time when once before fans used their First Amendment Rights to let their opinion be known rightly or wrongly.
    A time before the Twelve Man had a name.
    A time before some of us were even born.

    The year is 1982, the Seahawks had survived their introduction into the NFL and had surpassed most everybody’s expectations in their short seven year existence. That year the NFL and the NFLPA had been locked in a heated collective bargaining battle throughout the entire offseason. They were at an impasse, the players were threatening to strike and for the first time in NFL history disrupt the regular season.

    With the start of the season approaching and the cloud of labor unrest looming overhead, then GM John Thompson and coach Jack Patera traded popular WR and union representative Sam McCullum to Minnesota. The NFLPA promptly saw the trade as retaliation for his work with the players union and before the first game of the season against Cleveland handed out pamphlets expressing that opinion in no uncertain terms. A ploy, in part at least, to garner support for their cause from the fans.

    Now Sam was a good receiver, not great, but a very nice complement to Steve Largent yet after the trade he only played for two more years, never matched the modest numbers he had at Seattle. These were the facts behind the debate for John and Jack to trade him, while he still had value. On the other hand the Seahawks didn’t have a WR that could or did match his production either, argued the other side. So whether his trade was truly retaliatory or not would never be known for sure, as both sides stood by their story, but it matters not. At the end of the second game of the ’82 season the players struck, the owners locked them out, and the infamous 57 days of no football happen. Magnified everyday on the sports news and every Sunday by the lack there of.

    The Seahawk’s vociferous fans put that time to “good” use, inflamed by the NFLPA’s stand on McCullum or possibly from just the lack of football, they struck out at the only people they could reach, the owners, or in our case the Nordstrom’s clothing company. They used their First Amendment Right and picketed Nordstrom stores, they cut up their credit cards, they called for a ban of their products, they wrote letters to papers and they harassed their customers. Now whether it was the pressure of these protests or the two back to back seasons of sub .500 records that motivated his decision is hard to say, but on October 13th halfway through the strike, the Nordstroms announced the firing of John Thompson and Jack Patera and the elevation of Mike McCormack to GM/coach. On November 16th an agreement was reached and the players returned to play November 21st to finish a 9 game season.

    Had that been the end of it perhaps everything would have returned to normal. Chuck Knox was hired as head coach, Mike McCormack remained GM/President of Player Operations and the Seahawks established winning seasons and post season playoff surprises.

    But in ’82 the NFLPA had not pressed for free agency in favor of the “55% revenue sharing” and in ’87 they were determined to get it. Two weeks into that season the NFLPA went on strike, a week later the all ready prepared owners continued the season with replacement players and the Seahawk fans picketed Nordstroms once again.

    The Nordstroms family were huge sports fans and supporters, but they were businessmen first and their business was selling high end clothing, which was now being threatened for the second time because of their association with the NFL. The family decided they could no longer have their business disrupted for things that happened on the football field. They went on a searched for a buyer of the hometown team and on August 30, 1988, John Nordstrom announced that the Seahawks had been sold to a used car salesman turned real estate mogul, the man whose name shall not be spoken.

    At this point I could go on about the mismanagement, bad drafts, coaching hires, poor seasons, dwindling fan support, TV black outs, moving vans, and all the rest of the nine years of ineptness that became the “Dark Era”, but this is a cautionary tale about OUR actions and the unforeseen consequences they may cause.

    Do I believe if we troll on opposing teams message boards and generally act like fools it will create a “butterfly effect” and Paul Allen will sell the Seahawks or somehow shutdown the internet? Of course not. Do I think if we get drunk and shout obscenities at an opposing team’s fan, be they man, woman, child or dog, someone will move our team to LA? No, that would be inane. Do I suppose if we vandalize someone’s car or attack them because they are wearing another team’s jersey we’ll spiral into an abyss of poor drafts and poorer seasons? No, that’s just silly. Do I profess if we act like asses in the name of our fandom somehow games will be blacked out? No and why should I?

    But then, why should any of those fans, protesting in the front of those Nordstrom store doors way back in ’82 and ’87, believe their acts could explode into the maelstrom that would become the Dark Era? How could they foresee the chain of events that would lead to the lowest point in Seahawk history?

    So as these accounts of fans pushing the limits of civility to the edge of chaos, in the guise of their rights to fandom and free speech, are being repeated at home games with Washington, San Francisco, New Orleans “Beast Quake” and others yet to be chronicled, I simply point out, how the actions of US the fans can and sometimes do have long term, undefined, and unforeseen devastating consequences.

    Well that’s my cautionary tale, it’s how I remembered it. It’s a story of a passionate fan base, a perceived wrong, a constitutional right, and how they all collided to push Seattle football history to the brink of disaster.

    Could the overwhelming desire to express our love and support for one team once again push us to the edge of some other unsuspected precipice? Does merely standing on the sidelines perpetuate a slide down a slippery slope to another unanticipated, yet eventual cataclysm?

    Just how much are we willing to lose to prove our fandom?

    I’ll leave each of you to decide for yourselves…
    "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis."
    Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
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    "Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim."
    (“Ovid”)
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:15 pm
  • Cool manifesto bro.

    I'm not sure what your point is, cause I counted like 90 of them in there.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:20 pm
  • Cautionary indeed, but grasping at straws too.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions....
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:24 pm
  • ummm, give me liberty or give me death. The fans had a right to picket. The Nordstroms made a choice. They could have made other choices. Choices that wouldn't have led to fans picketing outside their stores while not selling the team to he who shall never be named.

    Never give up your freedom of speach because you fear the consequences. NEVER.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:47 pm
  • Great write-up. This read like a call to action, but I'm not really sure what you want us to do specifically. We won't be picketing Paul Allen any time soon. Even still, the message at it's core rang true for me.

    SalishHawkFan wrote:ummm, give me liberty or give me death. The fans had a right to picket. The Nordstroms made a choice. They could have made other choices. Choices that wouldn't have led to fans picketing outside their stores while not selling the team to he who shall never be named.

    Never give up your freedom of speach because you fear the consequences. NEVER.


    That's not really what he's saying. He's saying that we should be smart about how we use that freedom (consider consequences carefully before acting), not that we shouldn't use it.
    Last edited by kearly on Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:50 pm
  • Is there a cliff notes version?
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:55 pm
  • In a nutshell: Reactionary fans over-reacted and did more harm than good because they didn't consider the potential ramifications first. Things ended up working out, but our team nearly went to LA over it. It's a reminder to stay level headed at all times and always remember that what we think/say/do has meaning and can have a real effect on our team's future. I think this post was probably 15+ years too early as it has no relevance today, but I liked the insight he brought.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:01 pm
  • I like Russell Wilson
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:03 pm
  • As a great and talented young man, wise beyond his years, once said, "Never be afraid to excel."

    That man, Russell Wilson.

    So to answer a question you asked, "Could the overwhelming desire to express our love and support for one team once again push us to the edge of some other unsuspected precipice?"

    The answer is "Yes." the "unsuspected precipice" ... Super Bowl baby, and LOTS of them!
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:07 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Cool manifesto bro.

    I'm not sure what your point is, cause I counted like 90 of them in there.


    kearly wrote:In a nutshell: Reactionary fans over-reacted and did more harm than good because they didn't consider the potential ramifications first. Things ended up working out, but our team nearly went to LA over it. It's a reminder to stay level headed at all times and always remember that what we think/say/do has meaning and can have a real effect on our team's future. I think this post was probably 15+ years too early as it has no relevance today, but I liked the insight he brought.



    Thanks for the kind words kearly and Sgt.

    While the story is wordy and almost thirty years old the moral is as relevant today as it was then.
    I was disturbed by the recent stories of fan violence and shameful behavior.

    While some see apposing fans as the enemy, I see them as brothers in arms. We all love the same thing just from a different point of view and if we destroy ourselves from the inside out the very thing we all love could disappear before we realize how it happened.

    If I have a “call to arms” of any sort it would be protect your fellow fan be he a Redskin, a Bronco, or even a hated 49er…


    SalishHawkFan wrote:ummm, give me liberty or give me death. The fans had a right to picket. The Nordstroms made a choice. They could have made other choices. Choices that wouldn't have led to fans picketing outside their stores while not selling the team to he who shall never be named.

    Never give up your freedom of speach because you fear the consequences. NEVER.



    Believe me I’m full of words and hardly shy away from using them :lol:

    But in this case having 1 vote out of 28 the Nordstroms had little to no control over what the NFL did, they really had but two choices;
    1) Stay in the “good ole boys club” and except negative reactions against their company every time the NFL did something to raise the ire of the public in general or
    2) Get out and continue to run their publicly owned business in a responsible manner (quite similar to how they ran their NFL franchise).

    They chose the second, their only true mistake was not thoroughly vetting their applicants (if they even had more than one) and even that had the NFL’s hands all over it…
    "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis."
    Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:18 pm
  • How do you expect people to protest against the Seahawks via Paul Allen? Boycott Windows?

    Some people are getting incredibly bent out of shape over the recent poor behavior of a few Seahawks fans. This crap happens in every fan base. We are not the erudite, tea-sipping, white-glove fan base of the NFL. We are a bunch of human beings and living in Seattle does not make us immune to stupidity. We really don't need to be so shocked over it that we actually worry about Paul Allen getting picketed.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:43 pm
  • I think I'll wait for the movie. :stirthepot:
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:14 pm
  • FidelisHawk wrote:Could the overwhelming desire to express our love and support for one team once again push us to the edge of some other unsuspected precipice? Does merely standing on the sidelines perpetuate a slide down a slippery slope to another unanticipated, yet eventual cataclysm?

    This is silly, but let's pretend for a moment there's some validity to this. What the hell are we supposed to do about it? Beat the crap out of anyone who is causing problems? Shut up?

    People are idiots, and protesters have higher per-capita idiocy than most other groups. I have a hard time associating the unintended consequences of their protests with anything happening now.

    Here's a question. If you could go back in time, and disperse the Nordtrom protests with tear gas (or a nasty case of the flu), would you do it?
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:33 pm
  • Let's play out this scenario a little further....

    The year is 2022, Russell Wilson has won 4 Super Bowls in his HOF career but a black shadow hangs over the NFL. Where it started as a few misguided fans in San Francisco stabbing each other outside of games in 2012, the violence has escalated, now it is not uncommon for nearly full scale riots to break out any time a visiting fan is seen inside the home stadium of many NFL Franchises. Now public outcry has gone away from the safety of the game but instead is calling for Congress to act to ban the game all together because of the threats to public safety that the aftermath of the games have become.....

    Now, I don't think that this is all together a likely scenario but you can see how it might turn into that if we let it. THAT I think was the point of the OP. Our decisions and actions now (ie the way we treat visitors to our stadium) can have far reaching consequences.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:39 pm
  • Navyhawkfan187 wrote:Let's play out this scenario a little further....

    The year is 2022, Russell Wilson has won 4 Super Bowls in his HOF career but a black shadow hangs over the NFL. Where it started as a few misguided fans in San Francisco stabbing each other outside of games in 2012, the violence has escalated, now it is not uncommon for nearly full scale riots to break out any time a visiting fan is seen inside the home stadium of many NFL Franchises. Now public outcry has gone away from the safety of the game but instead is calling for Congress to act to ban the game all together because of the threats to public safety that the aftermath of the games have become.....

    Now, I don't think that this is all together a likely scenario but you can see how it might turn into that if we let it. THAT I think was the point of the OP. Our decisions and actions now (ie the way we treat visitors to our stadium) can have far reaching consequences.


    That's just silly, I thought we agreed earlier in the week that he would have 6 rings in 10 years. If you can hope for more SB visits then Brady in a Decade then what is their to look forward too!

    Violence at games isn't as bad as everyone says. Look at some Soccer cities worldwide. Hulligans was coined for bad sports fans in England.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:23 pm
  • The situation at Clink is absolutely nothing compared to many other stadiums.

    Do I think things could be better? Sure, things can always be better.

    Do I think the Seahawks need to be leaders on this? No, I don't. Let's see the fans and owners of Oakland and Philadelphia do something about their problem, first, as it's far far worse there... I won't even consider going to Oakland again, after my last experience there, about 10 years ago...
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:20 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:How do you expect people to protest against the Seahawks via Paul Allen? Boycott Windows?

    Some people are getting incredibly bent out of shape over the recent poor behavior of a few Seahawks fans. This crap happens in every fan base. We are not the erudite, tea-sipping, white-glove fan base of the NFL. We are a bunch of human beings and living in Seattle does not make us immune to stupidity. We really don't need to be so shocked over it that we actually worry about Paul Allen getting picketed.

    Montana, normally I appreciate your straight-forward, both feet on the ground approach to your posts, but this time I think you missed the mark. While everything in my tale was true, it had nothing to do with protesting or picketing, it was simply a metaphor about fans acting badly and the consequences it can have on the game we all revere.

    If civility, respect, and common courtesy are dead in our sport at least force the vocal minority to drag it out kicking and screaming. I would hope we‘d all be erudite enough (I like your use better than mine, but what the heck, how often do you get to use erudite?) to realize the adolescent argument, “But Daddy, everyone else is doing it!” carries as much weight in this discussion as it would from a ten year old child in our living rooms.

    How hard could it be to tell your friend he’s/she’s crossing over the line from rivalry to disrespect?

    Or have we blurred the line so much we can no longer see it?

    BocciHawk wrote:The situation at Clink is absolutely nothing compared to many other stadiums.

    Do I think things could be better? Sure, things can always be better.

    Do I think the Seahawks need to be leaders on this? No, I don't. Let's see the fans and owners of Oakland and Philadelphia do something about their problem, first, as it's far far worse there... I won't even consider going to Oakland again, after my last experience there, about 10 years ago...


    Fine, I’m all for that, let them lead the way, or New York or Chicago…
    In the meantime it doesn’t hurt to mow the grass in our own back yard…

    BlueTalon wrote:
    FidelisHawk wrote:Could the overwhelming desire to express our love and support for one team once again push us to the edge of some other unsuspected precipice? Does merely standing on the sidelines perpetuate a slide down a slippery slope to another unanticipated, yet eventual cataclysm?

    This is silly, but let's pretend for a moment there's some validity to this. What the hell are we supposed to do about it? Beat the crap out of anyone who is causing problems? Shut up?

    People are idiots, and protesters have higher per-capita idiocy than most other groups. I have a hard time associating the unintended consequences of their protests with anything happening now.

    Here's a question. If you could go back in time, and disperse the Nordtrom protests with tear gas (or a nasty case of the flu), would you do it?


    Whoo Hoo, a time machine! I love time machines…
    If I went back in time I’d try to take some video evidence with me (rather than tear gas) to at least show the protesters that while their hearts may be in the right place, their ire misses the mark by about 3000 miles. Or perhaps watching Dan McGwire throw a football would do the trick….

    My biggest problem though, would be should I transfer my evidence into a VCR format or just load it into the streaming video software on my IPad….

    And see if any of those wunderkinds are smart enough to buy Apple stock while it’s under $20…

    **note to self…. Leave a message on my answering machine…
    **Crap, did I have an answering machine in ’83?
    ** never mind send a letter…
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:55 am
  • At the green bay game I was sitting next to a packer fan. I had been drinking pretty heavily. Hard to believe, I know. He was cheering his ass off at the beginning of the game. It pissed me off that he was being all rah rah in our house. Me and him got pretty heated, almost came to blows.

    This little gal that sits in the row in front of me spun around, looked at me, and yelled "Dominic! Knock it off!"

    I looked at the Packer fan for a second. Then said I was sorry. We hugged it out and for the rest of the game we actually bullshitted and had a good time.

    I learned a lesson that day.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:00 am
  • Tech Worlds wrote:At the green bay game I was sitting next to a packer fan. I had been drinking pretty heavily. .

    We hugged it out for the rest of the game and had a good time.

    I learned a lesson that day.



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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:30 pm
  • kearly wrote:Great write-up. This read like a call to action, but I'm not really sure what you want us to do specifically. We won't be picketing Paul Allen any time soon. Even still, the message at it's core rang true for me.

    SalishHawkFan wrote:ummm, give me liberty or give me death. The fans had a right to picket. The Nordstroms made a choice. They could have made other choices. Choices that wouldn't have led to fans picketing outside their stores while not selling the team to he who shall never be named.

    Never give up your freedom of speach because you fear the consequences. NEVER.


    That's not really what he's saying. He's saying that we should be smart about how we use that freedom (consider consequences carefully before acting), not that we shouldn't use it.

    And I'm saying that's the wrong lesson to learn from this. The Nordstroms could have just as easily sold the team to Paul Allen and we may have had decades of Super Bowl appearances and be a long running dynasty.

    That it didn't work out that way is beyond the abilities of any of those protesters to foresee. NO ONE could foresee what might have happened that day.

    Protesting, on that day, was the RIGHT thing to do.

    I'm not going to play games with people who want us to live in fear of the consequences of excercising our freedom. Especially not when their prime example is a case where no one COULD HAVE possibly foreseen the chain of events that would have followed.

    It's a BS "cautionary tale". I'm betting the OP is conservative, hates liberals and thinks "freedoms" are things soldiers fight for in Iraq and liberals are naive to hate the Patriot Act. I may be wrong, but I tend to find the only people that ever lump consequences and freedoms together are the same ones that always are quick to give up our freedoms for safety.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:53 pm
  • Wasn't it the same passionate fan base (along with key players) who put pressure on the post-Nordstrom regime, essentially 'forcing' it to sell to PA rather than move to LA? I wasn't around back then, so I'm really asking because that's the impression I have.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:54 pm
  • Well written, and point taken. 100% taken.

    At the rate things are going, professional sports are going to have to change. There are too many incidents at stadiums, outside of stadiums, between fanbases on the internet. It is heading backward here. American football is heading the way that British Football was in the earlier times, and have since cleaned up considerably, but with that they have had to do certain things like chain of areas of the stadium for opposing fans, use separate entrances and exits, etc. Actions do have consequences. I know an American kid who went with his American school to see the US play England at Wembley Stadium a few years ago. They were given stern lectures before the game to not actively cheer for the USA for their own safety, to not wear anything with the team name or country on it. In no way to identify themselves as Americans. These high school students thought they were smarter than those giving the advice. All it took was one kid to do what he had been warned not to do, and they had to get escorted out of the stadium by police (a LOT of police) and we're talking like 12 kids. They were found out as Americans.

    Should you have to be worried about being "found out" that you're a Seahawks fan in San Fran or AZ? That's where we're headed people. Do we want the NFL to have to consider playing to a TV audience only? I'm totally serious. It could happen. There have been games played to empty stadiums in other leagues and other sports due to political or fan unrest. This isn't something to mess with, and the NFL is heading down the wrong path. Things do have to change. Many of you make fun of baseball, and say their games are boring, and their fans are nerds. But look at what happened to Brian Stow because of his daring to love the Giants at Dodgers Stadium. His life is ruined as he knew it. So is that of his family.

    Football fans are much more aggressive and all it takes is one idiot. It's going to happen. Don't pretend it's not. Alcohol will play a factor, as will the whole fake machismo "this is our house" bullcrap. It's a powderkeg. I just hope like crazy none of you are involved and you all stay safe. Look back at this post in 2-3 years and see if you see things any differently. I bet every one of you will. Just watch. It's going to happen. NFL stadium security sucks, and the fans tend to think their $60 buys them the right to do whatever they want. I am sad that it is heading to this point, but I have zero doubt that something awful will happen at an NFL game in short order.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:38 pm
  • SalishHawkFan wrote:And I'm saying that's the wrong lesson to learn from this. The Nordstroms could have just as easily sold the team to Paul Allen and we may have had decades of Super Bowl appearances and be a long running dynasty.

    Where do I start,,,
    First off, the Nordstrom family was the Paul Allen of that time, a wealthy owner with deep pockets that hired football people to run their football operations. They never meddled with the affairs of the team they owned.

    Second Paul Allen wasn’t Paul Allen at that time, in ’83 Microsoft had yet to build much less sell an operating system. In ’86 they went public and raised $61 million, in ’88 the Seahawks were sold for $80 million.

    Third the minority ownership under the Nordstroms were some of the wealthiest people in Seattle and none had either the means or the desire to be vetted by the NFL, a process every perspective owners must go through.
    So their choices of buyers were not as vast as you portray…

    SalishHawkFan wrote:That it didn't work out that way is beyond the abilities of any of those protesters to foresee. NO ONE could foresee what might have happened that day.


    Well I saw the possibility at the time. You had to be blind or stupid to think you could disrupt a man’s means of support and not think there will be ramifications. Now the extent of the damage the new ownership would eventually cause was certainly unforeseen, in fact it took several years for it to manifest itself.
    SalishHawkFan wrote:Protesting, on that day, was the RIGHT thing to do.

    It might have been if they had an actual agenda, but they didn’t, they were just angry fans. The sad aside to this story is they weren’t even angry at the Nordstroms, they were angry at the NFL, they were angry because there was 57 days with no football, they were angry about replacement players. The Nordstroms were just convenient targets.
    SalishHawkFan wrote:I'm not going to play games with people who want us to live in fear of the consequences of excercising our freedom. Especially not when their prime example is a case where no one COULD HAVE possibly foreseen the chain of events that would have followed.

    I never professed anyone should live in fear of their acts, only to think before we act or react. I’m sure there was at least once you wished you’d taken pause before you did something or reacted to a perceived wrong and that was what the OP was about. If not then more power to you, you’re a better man than me.
    SalishHawkFan wrote:It's a BS "cautionary tale".

    BS or not that’s what happened, I didn’t change the details. If it helps think of it as a moral about cause and effect and change the names so the innocent will be protected.
    SalishHawkFan wrote: I'm betting the OP is conservative, hates liberals and thinks "freedoms" are things soldiers fight for in Iraq and liberals are naive to hate the Patriot Act. I may be wrong, but I tend to find the only people that ever lump consequences and freedoms together are the same ones that always are quick to give up our freedoms for safety.


    And this…
    I would NEVER presume you’re a tree hugging liberal that thinks the government owes you a living or someone who believes the wealth of people who have worked a lifetime to amass it should be distributed to the less fortunate by a government that can’t agree on how to spend the money they already have fast enough, because I don’t know you or your beliefs.

    Kindly accord me the same courtesy because if you did know me you would find your presumption is indeed wrong…
    "Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis."
    Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
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    FidelisHawk
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:15 pm
  • Fidelis, your thoughtfulness and articulation are admirable. I won't use the term "BS", but I'm not sure the parallel examples are, well, parallels.

    On one hand, currently, we are seeing random acts of fan thuggery and bullying - both at games and online - directed at opposing teams' fans.

    On the other, more than two decades ago, fans of one team organized to let the owners of that team know that the fans wanted the labor dispute resolved.

    I fully agree with and understand the "think before you act" message, but I'm not seeing how these two scenarios mesh beyond that. One requires taking responsibility for one's self and abstaining from assaultive behavior. The other requires ... not voicing displeasure with ownership?
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:36 pm
  • Fans voicing displeasure usually first takes on a single act. Not an organized situation like you saw at Nordstrom's stores. It starts out innocently enough, just as it did in LA. Fans stopped going to games. Then they needed fans to come in, so they started offering all of these benefits to coming. Then fans came out to the games and were pissed at the product. Next thing you know a guy is dying in the parking lot.

    I've seen fistfights over a holding call. It doesn't have to be displeasure with the owner. Right now NFL fans are overwhelmingly against Roger Goodell. The barking about this guy is non-stop and it has gotten ugly. I see no reason why it will relent. Owners aren't getting rid of him. He makes them money. Fans don't like him. Read the ESPN boards. You have guys who have made it their full time job to call everybody a "sissy" and every variation of it if they tend to agree with protecting the assets on the field. They are just absolutely hate-filled filthy, foul-mouthed awful people. I can imagine what happens when one of those guys goes to a game and gets tanked and doesn't like how a personal foul is called. I can see what I saw in Seattle when Behring ran the show and there was very little security, the Raiders were in town, they were beating us soundly, and our whole section erupted into a complete riot and I'm covering my mom trying to protect her from getting killed (literally).

    It doesn't take much of a spark to light a match, and one match can start a pretty darn big fire. Right now... The NFL itself is the issue. The fans (or the diehards as they call themselves) feel the NFL is turning into flag football and are all full of booze and testosterone, and it can erupt. They are mad at the product. They are mad at calls. If the Seahawks were in the midst of a losing season and it were later in the game, I can see the stadium going batshit crazy over that call on Kam against the 49ers. It doesn't take much, and then everybody is going to be stunned when ticket prices double for securities sake, and we have fencing and hockey walls around the field, and fans aren't allowed in to see warmups, signs are done away with, and the whole experience gets worse. Why? Because somebody didn't think before they acted.

    I guarantee you that there are fan bases much dumber than Seattle's and something is going to happen in Cleveland or Cincinnati or Philadelphia. It's a matter of time with the present state of affairs. It doesn't have to be displeasure with ownership. Any number of things can set an idiot off. I think the message is sound and it is clear to those of us who see the degradation of common human decency, in particular in group settings. I think this is a warning that those who are loudest against it probably need to read a bit deeper into and understand for the sake of those of us who now can't even attend games with our children or even by ourselves (I can't protect my kid because of my back surgeries, so I can't go to a game.... because I'm afraid something would happen and I can't pick him up and run out of a situation like I could have 3 years ago, and that sucks for me, because I don't get to see games like many of you do). It's already impacting me directly, and it sucks. I'd love nothing more than to walk into the stadium with my son and enjoy a game like I used to with my dad. We had no fear of some drunk idiot acting like an idiot and my dad saying, "Hey, watch it, I've got kids here" and everybody saying "Yeah, cool it" and that was the end of it. Now, I'm afraid in this environment if my Dad had done the same thing he'd get attacked by 5 people and everybody would watch aghast and then somebody would text security and they'd show up after he got his brains kicked in. It's just the way things are.

    People warning you to think before you act is NEVER a bad thing, and those who try to paint it as a political issue or a "bleeding heart liberal" agenda or just being apologist morons for a bunch of morons. It is a matter of respect for others and respect for the reason they play the games... for our enjoyment. Not to go sit for 3 hours and hope like hell you don't get killed. That's the wrong way and it needs to STOP.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:01 am
  • I think people are taking the "picketing at Nordstrom's" too literally... He's using the "unintended consequences" as the main point. The fact of the matter is that the NFL is heading towards a precipice. People are killing each other over a children's game played by grown men for our entertainment. That is a HUGE problem and one that will, unless its stopped, lead to the demise of the pass-time we hold so dear. Who want's to see SWAT and Seattle PD in riot gear outside the stadium when San Francisco comes to town? That's where we're heading unless we as fans decide to step up and start policing ourselves. I'm not saying tattle on people for stupid stuff, but like Dom's story earlier, if a fan is getting truly out of hand most times all it takes is for you to tell them to "sit down, shut up, and enjoy the game." For most rational people that's enough. I've used the "hey man you're acting like a drunken idiot right now, maybe you should settle down a bit." line quite a lot in my years partying with Navy buddies. It works. For those that it doesn't work for, those are the people we DON'T want at our games, in our stadium, representing us and our team.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:22 am
  • Navyhawkfan187 wrote:I think people are taking the "picketing at Nordstrom's" too literally... He's using the "unintended consequences" as the main point. The fact of the matter is that the NFL is heading towards a precipice. People are killing each other over a children's game played by grown men for our entertainment. That is a HUGE problem and one that will, unless its stopped, lead to the demise of the pass-time we hold so dear. Who want's to see SWAT and Seattle PD in riot gear outside the stadium when San Francisco comes to town? That's where we're heading unless we as fans decide to step up and start policing ourselves. I'm not saying tattle on people for stupid stuff, but like Dom's story earlier, if a fan is getting truly out of hand most times all it takes is for you to tell them to "sit down, shut up, and enjoy the game." For most rational people that's enough. I've used the "hey man you're acting like a drunken idiot right now, maybe you should settle down a bit." line quite a lot in my years partying with Navy buddies. It works. For those that it doesn't work for, those are the people we DON'T want at our games, in our stadium, representing us and our team.


    Excellent. Thank you for stating my point in 8,000 less words! :)
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:59 am
  • Navyhawkfan187 wrote:Let's play out this scenario a little further....

    The year is 2022, Russell Wilson has won 4 Super Bowls in his HOF career but a black shadow hangs over the NFL. Where it started as a few misguided fans in San Francisco stabbing each other outside of games in 2012, the violence has escalated, now it is not uncommon for nearly full scale riots to break out any time a visiting fan is seen inside the home stadium of many NFL Franchises. Now public outcry has gone away from the safety of the game but instead is calling for Congress to act to ban the game all together because of the threats to public safety that the aftermath of the games have become.....

    Now, I don't think that this is all together a likely scenario but you can see how it might turn into that if we let it. THAT I think was the point of the OP. Our decisions and actions now (ie the way we treat visitors to our stadium) can have far reaching consequences.


    Glazer's own soccer teams right?.....
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:16 am
  • Not sure when the violence at Soccer started but it's now an accepted unacceptable situation. Teams still play the game.

    It's a matter of time before that behavior gets emulated here, there is too much money in it for them to shut it down I'm afraid.

    Mob mentality is a scary thing, we have seen it in other situations but at a football game or any sports arena where the ability to get out of harms way is limited it could be a disaster of unimagined proportions.

    Just think of fans tossing the oppositions fans off the side of the concourse etc.

    When people are responsible it's one thing, things have changed where people now drink to get messed up to enjoy getting riled up, I guess no guts being sober is the only answer to having to drink to be an asshole and pick on unsuspecting people. Or the gang mentality of a group intimidation of others.

    I know it needs to be stopped before it becomes unstoppable and mainstream.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:23 am
  • SharkHawk has won this thread, I agree with your posts. We are fans not a " nation " or a mob or this other B.S. that people buy into. I'd love to go to S.F. and watch the Hawks as I live in Cali but I won't after the bathroom murder there in a pre season game between the Niners and Raiders. It's a game people yes it sucks when the Seahawks lose and feels freaking awesome when they win but those acting like they are in a prison gang at the stadium is beyond stupid.
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Re: A Cautionary Tale…
Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:08 am
  • Nice post Fidelis. I agree with you and Shark.

    The guy who works next door to my job is a diehard Redskins fan from DC. I saw him for the first time in a while tonight. Wished him good luck and shook his hand and we both talked about how we hated that we had to face each other in the first round. Deep inside my soul though, I could tell we both want victory more than anything else. Still, we were both respectful and "brothers in arms."

    Don't worry Fidelis, there are still beacons of hope still remaining out there. When push comes to shove, they'll outshine the trash fans that every fanbase is sadly afflicted with.
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