Clayton still Screaming LUCK for OROY

rainger":3sc3yf8m said:

Getting sick of Clayton and his pushing of Luck.

He was on the Seahawks post game show and just cannot get off the Luck bandwagon. Keeps saying cause indy has no running game and no (he claims) D that Luck is the best.

BUT COME'ON MAN luck has his yards because of all the passes he threw, His ints are terrible, had low QBR, and many games under 50% passing. Clayton is all about the "star" getting the vote not wanting to look at the facts. Does not give credit to a 3rd rounder trys to say it is all because he is on a good team.

RW totaly out played Luck this year but will not get the love from idiots like Clayton.

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The Colts were 2-14 last season and now they are 11-5 this season. Sure Luck threw many picks during this season, but hey he brought the wins. Seattle had the good D from last season with Lynch. Washington had Morris and RGIII improving their game, but Luck had the less help (Reggie Wayne) and scrub RB Ballard.


Look at it this way even thought Luck has 8 more INT's than Wilson this season, he had the same wins as Wilson and has 1200 more yards than Wilson. Give everyone credit, and all 3 of them have a chance to win it.


Rich Eisen had said Russell Wilson should win MVP, do you see Colts fan angry at that comment?

Tical21":ud066g7c said:

It it just an impossible debate. All three are deserving.

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This is the situation. For the voters it comes down to "who have you watched play more?". Few of the voters have probably watched enough Wilson for him to be anything but #3 consideration.

Hawkfan77":16mm7p64 said:

SharkHawk":16mm7p64 said:

2 John Clayton facts:

1- John Clayton = Biggest Nerd in History of Universe
2- John Clayton had his own office in Seahawks headquarters. When Paul Allen bought the team, Clayton's office was taken away and he had to start doing his Seahawks reports from the parking lot of HQ after practices. He was so incensed by how he was treated he leaked a bunch of stuff about the "dysfunctional Seahawks management". When he was called on having lost his office in team headquarters he acted all huffy as if it wasn't true. He does dislike the Hawks and he knows why... and it has nothing to do with David Greene and Mystermatt.

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That sounds an awful like what Ruskell apparently did to Sando. Which made Sando butt-hurt so he trashed the Hawks for a long while.

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Sando never had an office. That was eliminated. What happened to Sando was the NFL rules went into effect on video, audio, etc. and he had no advantage anymore as a local beat reporter. In fact, it cut his access considerably. Access went to the NFL Network #1, and to ESPN #2. Sando was placed in an extremely bad situation, and his only option was to take an NFL job, which he didn't want, or an ESPN job, which he didn't want either, because he wanted to be able to stay with the Trib at the same time. He negotiated back and forth with ESPN and finally got it worked out to where he could work out of Tacoma and keep his home. He only has to go to Bristol quarterly for meetings, and travel to games. 99% of his work he does from his house. So ESPN was his best option.

It was a crummy situation for him, as he had created a world class blog, and got that blowhard Ron Borges fired for plagiarism. Sando went at him full force, even threatening legal action. Great for him.

Sando really got screwed over by Goodell and his cronies and their new rules limiting anything beyond I think 60 seconds being recorded, so all of his podcasting and short player interviews were now considered copyright infringement by the NFL and they set all kinds of ridiculous rules. They saw that guys like Sando were creating much better content than they ever could. None of the teams went to bat for local beat writers either, and that really sucked. And yes... Ruskell was a dink and tried to cut off the connection between beat writers and the team. This irritated Holmgren as well, because as much as Holmgren liked keeping things "in house" he was great at leaking what he wanted to and was able to get bad info out more often than good info and mess with next week's opponent. After Ruskell came along then that conduit was cut off.

So in review.... I love Sando, I hate Ruskell, and I think Goodell is a self-serving jackhole that just doesn't get what a divide he is creating between NFL fans and the league itself. My brother who works for VISA has GREAT access to the NFL, and I have none. He can get tickets to the SuperBowl the day before it is played by making one call. I have to enter a lottery and spend my life savings. Really stupid for "real fans", but really great for those who support Roger's agenda of "Olympicizing" the NFL.

Carmon1274":20f43380 said:

rainger":20f43380 said:

Getting sick of Clayton and his pushing of Luck.

He was on the Seahawks post game show and just cannot get off the Luck bandwagon. Keeps saying cause indy has no running game and no (he claims) D that Luck is the best.

BUT COME'ON MAN luck has his yards because of all the passes he threw, His ints are terrible, had low QBR, and many games under 50% passing. Clayton is all about the "star" getting the vote not wanting to look at the facts. Does not give credit to a 3rd rounder trys to say it is all because he is on a good team.

RW totaly out played Luck this year but will not get the love from idiots like Clayton.

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The Colts were 2-14 last season and now they are 11-5 this season. Sure Luck threw many picks during this season, but hey he brought the wins. Seattle had the good D from last season with Lynch. Washington had Morris and RGIII improving their game, but Luck had the less help (Reggie Wayne) and scrub RB Ballard.


Look at it this way even thought Luck has 8 more INT's than Wilson this season, he had the same wins as Wilson and has 1200 more yards than Wilson. Give everyone credit, and all 3 of them have a chance to win it.


Rich Eisen had said Russell Wilson should win MVP, do you see Colts fan angry at that comment?

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How do you know they are not angry at this comment? Do you have your finger on the pulse of Colts nation?

I have yet to see anger. What does it look like? How would I know it was emanating from a Colts fan?

seahawks875":3s5x7wcr said:

Tech Worlds":3s5x7wcr said:

seahawks875":3s5x7wcr said:

Luck has carried his team all year, if u ever watch him play and not just look at his stats, he is the real deal, Wilson is one of the top qbs in the league in my opinion and a lot better than rg3 but luck deserves ROY

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how? by throwing interceptions?

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Like I said, u should actually watch football instead for looking at stats and acting like u know football when u really don't know what ur talking about

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it doesn't matter. It's not like Luck's numbers are close. He far inferior to RW and RG3 in completion %,

Luck is completiong 54% while Wilson is @ 64% That's a significant difference.
Luck is @ 6.98 yards/ Att. Wilson is @ 7.93 Yards/ Att. Nearly a full yard/ Att better- Again significant difference.

Luck throw 234 more times than WIlson does and STILL is 3 TD's short of Wilson and Manning's record.

The fact is RW is more efficient than Luck. For anyone to argue that isn't looking at reality.

Luck is making more mistakes than either RW or RG3. Many of which are BAD THROWS/Decisions that are resulting in picks.

The only reason poeple are giving him the benefit of the doubt is A) because of his draft status of #1 pick and the insane hype that he's had the last 2 years. B) Because his team has won 11 games. SEveral of which have been closer than they needed to be because Luck was giving away the ball.

All 3 QB's have played well this year. But I think it's stupid to say that's it's clearly Luck's because he's thrown more yards. He loses every other statistical measure by significant margins. The point of football is to score and RW is responsible for more TD's than any of the other 2. So my vote is for RW.

Hawks46":v6brbugf said:

I thought Rothlisberger won 9 games as a rookie. He didn't start every game until the starter got injured.

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He was 13-0 as a starters and 14-1 including the playoffs in 2004.

kearly":3qjy3y7e said:

jewhawk":3qjy3y7e said:

This is a great, detailed article from a few weeks ago comparing how Luck's usage affects his efficiency numbers compared to RG3's (the article only compares Luck and RG3, not Wilson).

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All the article really argues is that Luck earns recognition for seeing more reps. I find that hard to swallow as much of an argument though, Wilson and RG3 had games this year where they topped 30 or 35 attempts and their efficiency numbers did not change.

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From the article:

Griffin has lost a yard of efficiency roughly every six attempts, whereas Luck has lost one just every 50.

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Luck was remarkably consistent no matter how often he had to throw. You could argue that RG3's superior efficiency throwing between 20-25 times a game is more impressive, but it's a mistake to completely ignore Luck's performance even in games where he had to throw 50+ times. And it's wrong to say that RG3's efficiency numbers did not change when they had to throw more. RG3's AY/A for the year was 8.59. In his five games where he attempted the most passes (29, 34, 35, 34, 39), his AY/A in those games were 6.24, 7.09, 9.23, 5.79, and 5.51, with the 9.23 game coming against Tampa Bay's defense that was one of the worst in the league against the pass. Luck's AY/A for the year was 6.42. In his five games where he attempted the most passes (46, 55, 48, 50, 54), his AY/A in those games were 6.70, 6.49, 9.85, 4.78, and 6.22. Wilson's AY/A for the year was 8.11. In his six games where he attempted the most passes (34, 27, 35, 27, 37), his AY/A in those games were 3.76, 13.07, 6.60, 9.78, and 9.00, with the 3.76 game being week 1 against the Cardinals in his first game in a limited offense. So you're right about Wilson's efficiency not suffering much with increased attempts, but RG3's efficiency dropped significantly with increased usage.

I also think you're downplaying the effect of the running game on RG3's efficiency. Sure, he deserves some credit for that because he's a threat to run himself, but I saw a stat somewhere a few weeks ago that RG3 led the league in Y/A from play-action, and was last in the league in Y/A without play action. This is further illustrated by looking at his numbers on 3rd and long, where there is no real threat of a rush on obvious passing downs. Here are the numbers for the rookie QBs on 3rd and 8 or more to go:

Luck: 41-83, 8.54 Y/A, 2.41 INT%, 5.68 Sack%, 36.4 1st down %
RG3: 28-48, 5.88 Y/A, 0.00 INT%, 11.11 Sack%, 9.3 1st down %
Wilson: 22-40, 7.33 Y/A, 2.44 INT%, 9.09 Sack%, 27.3 1st down %

So in situations where the defense knows it's a pass, RG3 struggles in a way that Luck and Wilson don't. Again, I'm not even saying I think Luck should win ROY. To me, the best order would be 1. Wilson, 2. Luck, 3. Griffin, but it's close between all of them.

Carmon1274":3aj7ymrr said:

rainger":3aj7ymrr said:

Getting sick of Clayton and his pushing of Luck.

He was on the Seahawks post game show and just cannot get off the Luck bandwagon. Keeps saying cause indy has no running game and no (he claims) D that Luck is the best.

BUT COME'ON MAN luck has his yards because of all the passes he threw, His ints are terrible, had low QBR, and many games under 50% passing. Clayton is all about the "star" getting the vote not wanting to look at the facts. Does not give credit to a 3rd rounder trys to say it is all because he is on a good team.

RW totaly out played Luck this year but will not get the love from idiots like Clayton.

Click to expand...

The Colts were 2-14 last season and now they are 11-5 this season. Sure Luck threw many picks during this season, but hey he brought the wins. Seattle had the good D from last season with Lynch. Washington had Morris and RGIII improving their game, but Luck had the less help (Reggie Wayne) and scrub RB Ballard.


Look at it this way even thought Luck has 8 more INT's than Wilson this season, he had the same wins as Wilson and has 1200 more yards than Wilson. Give everyone credit, and all 3 of them have a chance to win it.


Rich Eisen had said Russell Wilson should win MVP, do you see Colts fan angry at that comment?

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Colts were 2 and 14 because they purposely sucked for luck. They put in a 12th string QB for the year so that they would lose. They were a 10 / 11 win team before and it was not all just because of Manning. As for the same amount of wins as the Hawks did you actually look at their schedule and number of over 500 teams they played?

I never said that Luck or BG3 were not good, I merely object to Clayton and his "analysis" which is my right. Please note where did I say I was angry how did that get into your comment? You can be disgusted by someone or something it does not have anything to do with anger.

Colts AVERAGED over 12 wins per season for the prior 8 years before siezing the opportunity to replace Manning with the next great QB.
Indy from 2003-2010... 99-29, .773 winning %, average 12.3 wins - 3.6 losses. That is a DYNASTY!

This is not a bad team being lifted by a great new young QB-- it's a very good team that had one down year. They did everything possible to make sure they got the number one overall pick. Didn't even try to win until they had a two game "lead".

Also, on Clayton-- He just guesses along with everyone else, and is wrong more often than not. He actually sucks at a) predictions, and b) inside info. I think some real NFL people feed him crap just for fun. But he isn't as clueless as Mel Kiper though...

meh, who cares, they're all in the playoffs, all wild cards, all with similar records and stats, let post season play dictate their prestige, if they all lose their first or second games then fall back on stats..

you have to figure if Luck did carry his team then he will fail in the playoffs, same with the rest...

its just an award

The colts had an awful roster with manning. It is even far worse now. It shouldnt be held against luck that he had to throw more. The dude put his entire team on his back. Russell didn't. So Russ should have and did have more efficient results.

To me, the best way to determine the winner is to try to picture what the players seasons would have played out like if their roles were reversed. Wilson certainly had the far easier task, i don't think that is debatable. Can somebody answer this question...how many games would the colts have won if wilson was their qb?

jewhawk":1d9vedvh said:

kearly":1d9vedvh said:

jewhawk":1d9vedvh said:

This is a great, detailed article from a few weeks ago comparing how Luck's usage affects his efficiency numbers compared to RG3's (the article only compares Luck and RG3, not Wilson).

Click to expand...

All the article really argues is that Luck earns recognition for seeing more reps. I find that hard to swallow as much of an argument though, Wilson and RG3 had games this year where they topped 30 or 35 attempts and their efficiency numbers did not change.

Click to expand...

From the article:

Griffin has lost a yard of efficiency roughly every six attempts, whereas Luck has lost one just every 50.

Click to expand...

Luck was remarkably consistent no matter how often he had to throw. You could argue that RG3's superior efficiency throwing between 20-25 times a game is more impressive, but it's a mistake to completely ignore Luck's performance even in games where he had to throw 50+ times. And it's wrong to say that RG3's efficiency numbers did not change when they had to throw more. RG3's AY/A for the year was 8.59. In his five games where he attempted the most passes (29, 34, 35, 34, 39), his AY/A in those games were 6.24, 7.09, 9.23, 5.79, and 5.51, with the 9.23 game coming against Tampa Bay's defense that was one of the worst in the league against the pass. Luck's AY/A for the year was 6.42. In his five games where he attempted the most passes (46, 55, 48, 50, 54), his AY/A in those games were 6.70, 6.49, 9.85, 4.78, and 6.22. Wilson's AY/A for the year was 8.11. In his six games where he attempted the most passes (34, 27, 35, 27, 37), his AY/A in those games were 3.76, 13.07, 6.60, 9.78, and 9.00, with the 3.76 game being week 1 against the Cardinals in his first game in a limited offense. So you're right about Wilson's efficiency not suffering much with increased attempts, but RG3's efficiency dropped significantly with increased usage.

I also think you're downplaying the effect of the running game on RG3's efficiency. Sure, he deserves some credit for that because he's a threat to run himself, but I saw a stat somewhere a few weeks ago that RG3 led the league in Y/A from play-action, and was last in the league in Y/A without play action. This is further illustrated by looking at his numbers on 3rd and long, where there is no real threat of a rush on obvious passing downs. Here are the numbers for the rookie QBs on 3rd and 8 or more to go:

Luck: 41-83, 8.54 Y/A, 2.41 INT%, 5.68 Sack%, 36.4 1st down %
RG3: 28-48, 5.88 Y/A, 0.00 INT%, 11.11 Sack%, 9.3 1st down %
Wilson: 22-40, 7.33 Y/A, 2.44 INT%, 9.09 Sack%, 27.3 1st down %

So in situations where the defense knows it's a pass, RG3 struggles in a way that Luck and Wilson don't. Again, I'm not even saying I think Luck should win ROY. To me, the best order would be 1. Wilson, 2. Luck, 3. Griffin, but it's close between all of them.

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Wow... Great post Jewhawk. Really changed my opinion on Griffin and Luck. Thanks.

Tical21":1qrpwt6m said:

The colts had an awful roster with manning. It is even far worse now. It shouldnt be held against luck that he had to throw more. The dude put his entire team on his back. Russell didn't. So Russ should have and did have more efficient results.

To me, the best way to determine the winner is to try to picture what the players seasons would have played out like if their roles were reversed. Wilson certainly had the far easier task, i don't think that is debatable. Can somebody answer this question...how many games would the colts have won if wilson was their qb?

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Luck shouldn't get extra points because the Colts tanked their season by starting Painter either.

If you want to give a guy ROY who had a worse season but had excuses for having it, go ahead, just doesn't seem right to me. "Sure, Luck was worse than the other two, but.....". Don't get that, personally.

I think Luck gets a lot of attention (aside from being drafted first overall and being one of the most hyped QB's of all-time) because the Colts were 2-14 last season. This year they're playoff bound with a 11-5 record.

I have to admit that Russell Wilson has a better team around him than Andrew Luck. An elite tailback and top five defense are not luxuries that Luck has. So, it's easy for Andy Luck nutswingers to argue for him and make excuses for his horrid passing % and TD/INT rate.

What i've seen as far as reasons/excuses for Luck to be OROY are petty stuff like; "Luck has 23 TD passes, that's only 3 less than Wilson." But they ignore the fact that Andrew Luck has 18 interceptions to Russell Wilson's 10. I also see a lot of people bringing up his passing yards. Yeah, Luck has 4,374 yards passing, but his accuracy is 54.1 pct. Compare that to Wilson's 64.1% (on his 3,118 yds).

Anyway.. You can bring up raw stats and make a case for either of the three rookie quarterbacks. RG3 has certainly been outstanding as well. IMO, Offensive Rookie of the Year is between Wilson and RG3. Griffin III had an amazing regular season. He may not have thrown 26 TD's (RG3 has 20 TD passes), but he only has 5 interceptions on a 65.6 PCT and 3,200 yards. On top of his 815 rushing yards for 7 rushing touchdowns.

Offensive Rookie of the Year is going to come down to playoff performance. Since Luck, Wilson and RG3 are all in the postseason. Whoever takes their team further will win the award. It may come down to the Seahawks vs. Redskins game. Russell Wilson versus Robert Griffin III. Whoever wins the game, will most likely win Offensive Rookie of the Year. Unless Luck takes his team to the Superbowl. How great would it be to see Wilson and Luck square off in the Superbowl?!

What kind of a record do you think we have playing Green Bay, New England, Chicago, San Francisco, etc., with Jackson at the helm? Do you honestly think we'd pull any of those games out? How many 80- to 90-yard touchdown drives has Wilson made look easy this year? How many game-winning drives did Jackson lead for us?

We're a 5-11 team at best with no quarterback change. Anybody who thinks differently hasn't been watching the Seahawks the last couple of seasons. And that's all on Wilson.

5-11 is generous.

seahawks875":2s17mexw said:

Luck has carried his team all year, if u ever watch him play and not just look at his stats, he is the real deal, Wilson is one of the top qbs in the league in my opinion and a lot better than rg3 but luck deserves ROY

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How can you say Luck "carried" a team that went to the Superbowl 3 years ago and was 9-7 2 years ago? The 2-14 season they had last year completely skews the perception people have about his contributions. Last years Colts team was much better than their record indicated. That team gave up on their season. Luck is not the only reason they went 11-5 this year.

Hawks46":wp9rdhey said:

Of course they are on Luck's jock. He owns the rookie record for wins, by virtue of winning the early game.

Russell just tied it. So it's like Luck owns it all by himself, according to the mediots.

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Scottemojo":wp9rdhey said:

Hawks46":wp9rdhey said:

Of course they are on Luck's jock. He owns the rookie record for wins, by virtue of winning the early game.

Russell just tied it. So it's like Luck owns it all by himself, according to the mediots.

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Never heard of Ben Roethlisberger, have you?

This hate is making some of you kind of stupid.

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The sports media keep peddling this "Andrew Luck with 11 wins has the most wins of any rookie quarterback taken first overall.

So? Russell Wilson owns the most wins of any rookie quarterback drafted 75th overall (and presumably the most wins of any rookie QB not taken in the first round too?)

SeaWolv":309460hb said:

seahawks875":309460hb said:

Luck has carried his team all year, if u ever watch him play and not just look at his stats, he is the real deal, Wilson is one of the top qbs in the league in my opinion and a lot better than rg3 but luck deserves ROY

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How can you say Luck "carried" a team that went to the Superbowl 3 years ago and was 9-7 2 years ago? The 2-14 season they had last year completely skews the perception people have about his contributions. Last years Colts team was much better than their record indicated. That team gave up on their season. Luck is not the only reason they went 11-5 this year.

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I think that team was better than 2-14, if you put a good-but-not-great quarterback like say Sam Bradford on the Chiefs they'd probably have won 10 games this year, that doesn't mean Sam Bradford is the second coming of the messiah.
The talent is there, the coaching and the QB are not, and the Colts were the exact same.

However I can't agree that it's not possible for a QB to carry a team that was a contender not long before, I'd say Matt Hasselbeck carried our 2007 team that was a superbowl team 2 years prior, and certainly by 2009 was devoid of talent.