Bullcrap. How can you be so consistently wrong? I think it may be nearly impossible for you to have such conversations (just as it is with most people with a my-mind-is-made-up-don't-confuse-me-with-facts attitude), and therefore you project your lack of ability to have such conversations onto everyone else. I have had many, many such conversations. They are very enjoyable and rewarding. They don't have to end with an argument, or anybody converting. All it takes is the ability to listen and think before speaking, and the self control to not fill your communication with ridicule, sarcasm, or snarkiness.

A couple of my life mottoes are:
What you believe is only as good as why you believe it.
Cynicism is an underrated virtue.

There is no necessary dichotomy between thinking and faith, as much as some people might like to insist. Faith and skepticism are not mutually exclusive.

If the Bible has been "proven incorrect" "in nearly every instance", why would anyone believe God had anything to do with it? Do you think Christians believe in a god who they think is an incompetent boob?

I challenge you to give ten examples of things in the Bible that has been "proven incorrect." It shouldn't be hard, since there are many thousands of instances in the Bible, and you believe "nearly every" one of them has been disproven.

The thing is, you have every right to believe whatever you want (and it is up to you to decide, you're right about that). But it is your religious belief that the Bible was written by man for man. And it's your religious belief that "nearly every instance of the Bible has been proven incorrect." For every disproven instance you show me, I will show you something written by someone with a bias, about which there is still debate.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

Lev 11:6 says that hares chew their cud. They dont.

Deut 14:7 not only says that hares chew their cud but that camels dont have a cloven hoof (they do).

Jonah 1:17 says whales are fish.

Matt 13:31-32 says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. Its not. (it IS however the smallest seed in the Middle East that is commonly found.. which is a major hint about who is writing this for whom...). This passage also says that mustard seeds go into trees. Which they dont.

Matt 4:8 Says that if you go up very high you can see all the kingdoms on earth. That is only true if the world is flat. Its not.

Matt 2:16-18 says that Herod commited mass murder of children. a) no other gospel writers seemed to notice, and b) that didnt happen. Flavius Josephus wrote about the abuses of Herod.. he didnt mention it.

Mark doesnt know the geography of the area he is writing about and so his whole narrative is messed up. Im too lazy to summarize so here is summary by someone else: He knows the Galilean place names
and the general relative positions of the localities, but not specific details. Hence he "represents Jesus as travelling back
and forth in Galilee and adjacent territories in a puzzling fashion" (Kee, 117, pp 102 - 3). To go (as Jesus is said to in Mk. 7:31) from the territory of Tyre by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee "is like travelling from Cornwall to London via Manchester" (Anderson, 2, p 192). Again, Mark’s references to movements across the Sea of Galilee are impossible to trace sequentially. Mention of specific location near the sea are either unknown sites, such as Dalmanutha (8:10), or are patently inaccurate, as in the designation of the eastern shore of the lake as the country of the Gerasenes (5:1)" (Kee, loc cit). Gerasa is more than thirty miles southeast of the lake, too far away for the setting of the story which demands a city in its vicinity, with a precipitous slope down to the water. Probably all that concerned Mark, collecting and adapting pre-existing stories about Jesus, was that the lake and its surrounding territories, some Jewish and some mainly Gentile, was an ideal setting for journey's of Jesus and his disciples, showing how both Jews and Gentiles responded to him with faith. That place names in Mark caused perplexity among early readers is shown by the wide range of variants in the textual tradition where names occur in the gospel. Perplexity is also evidenced by Matthew, who changed Mark’s Gerasenes to Gadarenes (Mt. 8:28), Gadara being a well-known spa only eight miles from the lake.

The census that brings Joseph and Mary to Nazareth? Never happened, and the Romans didnt make people go to their ancestral homeland to be counted.

According to Luke, it was during the reign of the Roman governor Quirinius, during a census ordered by Augustus throughout the whole world. Luke and Matthew say it was also during the reign of king Herod. The problem is that Herod died in 4 B.C.E., and this was fully ten years before Quirinius' census. Plus, during Herod's reign, no Roman census could have been held in his territory, which included both Judaea and Galilee, the locations of both Bethlehem and Nazareth. Herod would have collected his own taxes, and given tribute to the Romans. Then there is the problem that Romans didnt have an empire wide census, as taxes were collected province by province.

We have Pilate's trial records. They dont include the trial of Jesus.

John 19:29 has vinegar hasten the death of Jesus. Vinegar is often used as a stimulant, sort of like smelling salts.

There was no Roman custom of releasing prisoners.

The story of Barabbas is ahistorical, and is a fairly transparent attempt to take the blame off the Romans (as the gospels were written by..Romans.).


Small stuff: bats arent birds, pi is given the wrong value in the bible, the bible says stars are small objects in the sky that will someday fall (Revelations),
the earth isnt stationary.

This is all quite apart from internal contradictions which I believe I have given a tiny partial list of before.

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Just for the sake of conversation.

-Jonah doesn't mention a whale, just a "Great fish" and a "Leviathan."
-Jesus uses the mustard seed in a parable as a metaphor for heaven. He's not teaching Dendrology.
-Isaiah 40:22 mentions the Earth as a circle. Matt 4:8 has the Devil taking Jesus to a high place showing him all the kingdoms, that could mean a number of things, certainly not strictly that the Earth is flat.
-Pi is never given, just a rough estimate of a basin; c=30 cubits d=10 cubits; pi=c/d or 3 in this case. Close estimate.

Dyed in the wool Christians could probably debate every point on your list. I am not big on interpretting loose Bible passages and then taking that interpretation literally for proving or disproving anything. There is a God, Jesus is his only son sent to Earth. People that think that are Christians to some degree and people that don't, aren't. Firm believers on either side aren't likely to switch their beliefs anytime soon.

If there is a God he doesn't give a shit about you.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

That's not the consensus, but it is likely.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Sums it up really....

Why does God have a son? Are you saying God is a Human?

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

But they do practice refection, which is a similarly unsanitary habit that the Israelites would have been told to avoid. Since rabbits have a similar mouth motion and do appear to chew the cud in view of the Israelites and their limited scientific understanding, this is an understandable animal grouping.


They have a partially cloven hoof, and the Levitical standard is completely divided.


The Hebrew text actually reads "great fish", not whale.


If you're comparing it to quickly-recalled modern species like cedars or redwoods, no. But many mustard plants have been commonly observed to grow to six, ten, fifteen feet high, taller than typical garden plants. "Tree" would be an appropriate metaphor to the Middle Eastern readers, since they don't concern themselves with excruciating ontological precision. To quote 12evanf above, "He's not teaching Dendrology." I got a kick out of that.

And since when does the fact that Middle Eastern writers wrote the Bible for Middle Eastern readers mean that any spiritual truths contained therein aren't applicable to anyone else?


What it actually says is, "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor." This is obviously describing a metaphysical event between supernatural beings and so doesn't fall within the sphere of strict scientific scrutiny. It could also be an example of hyperbole, which the Bible employs all the time.


These are all arguments from silence.

Jesus was considered a minor troublemaker to a governor who was trying hard to quell disorder.

There were some documented examples or parallels to the practice of releasing prisoners, such as the Papyrus Florentinus, that make this idea at least plausible.

Also, in regards to Herod's genocide, we're talking about a rural area, a specific subgroup (under two years) of children, and a corrupt totalitarian regime in which protest and coverage of mass media (which didn't exist then anyway) would have been suppressed. The act wouldn't have involved thousands or possibly even hundreds of children, nor generated the modern standard of documentation you seem to be expecting.


Luke didn't necessarily follow chronological order within his gospel. Another modern scientific practice that people unreasonably expect ancient civilizations to have followed to the letter.


Since you're content to quote others, so am I.

It is interesting, however, that there are no ancient documents of anyone contradicting or calling Luke out on this "obvious error", even though Christianity had enemies right from the first century.


The verse doesn't contain the nuance that it was used to hasten his death.


That makes no sense; the Gospels purport to have been written by oppressed Jews.


More understandably limited scientific understanding to confine the writing, which decimal of pi would you like God to measure to, and heavily symbolic literature.


If I remember correctly, you were speaking of the contradictions between individual Gospel accounts. Valid point, if variation in individual accounts was a legitimate tool of critical analysis - but that's not the case. They're not accepted as a "smoking gun" in conspiracy theories concerning the Kennedy assassination or the moon landing, for example, even though people constantly try to apply them. It's accepted that it's perfectly normal for different people to remember different things about the same event, and even to contradict each other in minor details. In fact, that four people recount the same event with most details consistent is usually more favorable to the event's plausibility than not. Variations are also understandable if the four Gospel writers are focused on different themes, emphases and audiences, which they clearly are.

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It was prophesized in the Old Testament there would be a Messiah born from the seed of a virgin woman. The story of Christ fulfilled a number of prophecies.

There is the book called the Bible, it will certainly answer all your questions. I encourage you to read it. Why take my word for it, when you can read it yourself? The Bible is the best selling book of all time and many believers hold it as Holy. People have died giving you the right to read it, so please take advantage.

Same could be said for the Quran

I will never read the bible. I'm honestly not a big fan of fiction in general (well, maybe a bit of Star Trek).

If there was an all-powerful God that wanted me to know something, I'm sure He would have told me himself. Not through man-made stories. Don't you think that would be the logical way of doing things? Why would this God constantly "test" me? Why would he give me life, free-will and then send me to hell if I don't follow his ridiculous rules? Why would God's plan be so fucking horrible? Why is there a hell anyways? Why in one small part of the world came a few religions that all are kind of the same? How come people all across the world didn't come up with these same revelations? If you met a man from the jungles of the Amazon who knew nothing of current man and had no outside presence how come he has no idea what the fuck you are talking about? Why aren't we born with these what seem like basic fundamental understandings of our God, his son and how we should worship him?

The world wasn't created in 7 days. Evolution exists. We're not the center of the universe. The only thing that orbits us is the moon (and space junk).

Religion was created to answer the basic questions that we weren't able to or are able to answer yet. It was then used by the powerful to control the population. Hard to say 'no' when it would mean pissing off your God!

According to the CIA world factbook only 33% of the world is a form of Christian. Are you trying to tell me that an all powerful being can only garner 33% of the worlds population to believe? He's obviously a moron.

"Don't believe everything you read" should be stamped on the cover of any bible-like book. Better yet, stamp it on your forehead.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

Oh yeah? Like what? Name one in the past 1800 years that was specific. How many prophecies went unfulfilled?

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

Yet once the Protestants got driven out of Europe for re-purifying Christianity, first thing they did was establish a government based on religious freedom. Doesn't sound like control to me.

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Really?





So, something like this?

Oh yeah? Is that what you think happened? What about the persecution of Quakers? The theocracy that was Massachusetts? What about Maryland passing religions freedoms in the 1600s only to have it repealed by those wonderful protestants (twice)? Freedom of religion didn't happen in the colonies until the revolution.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

That's what I was referring to.

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It wasn't the first thing they did.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012