Game plan for Kaepernick: Force him out of the pocket?

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  • Interesting article at the NFC West blog

    Some Wilson love to start it all off :mrgreen:

    Colin Cowherd's latest conversation with NFL Films analyst Greg Cosell closes with Cowherd asking Cosell whether Seattle's Russell Wilson is the real deal.

    "Well, the film tells you that he is a pretty good player," Cosell replied.

    The response sounded measured, but that tends to be Cosell's style. He doesn't have a hyperbolic mode.

    "What I really like about him, he is very decisive, which is why he can make pocket throws because he does not allow the rush to get to him," Cosell said of Wilson. "And when the rush does get to him, his movement is very defined. He is not frenetic. He is not chaotic. He moves for a reason. He knows where everybody is and he can throw the ball extremely well on the run at the intermediate and deeper levels."


    But then we go back to a stat that interests me, that sadly involves QBR. I don't believe QBR is perfect, but it gets moderately close, and the discrepancy in numbers here cannot be ignored.

    Colin Kaepernick has a 83.0 QBR while inside the pocket. Pretty darn good, right? Force him outside the pocket, that number drops like a rock to 15.6. Wilson, for comparison, is much more balanced, with a 77.0 inside the pocket, and a 62.5 outside.

    Even though QBR is a flawed stat, that is a big discrepancy. Just thought it should be noted.
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  • Yes, lets get interior pressure with our d line that can't collapse a pocket and just put Jones on IR. That will flush Kaep out...
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  • sac.. he's not saying that is what we're going to do.. he's saying that is what teams need to attempt to do with kaep.. he's completely right.. going from 70 to 15 is a HUGE discrepancy.. and we need to throw whatever stunts we can at him to flush him outside the pocket in that case.
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  • I was doing my Montana impression
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  • Don't we want to keep him in the pocket.. and just sack him there so we don't give him anywhere to run?
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  • SacHawk2.0 wrote:I was doing my Montana impression


    if only .net had a thumb up button. lol

    And Bobblehead, what would you rather have, a sack or a pick?

    Both are great results though.
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  • Just my 2 cents.

    I know the numbers don't bear this out right now...

    ...but you don't want him running out of the pocket either. He is one of the very few QBs who can run to his left and throw across his body accurately. He did it ALOT in college. He's been off by just inches on a few TD passes this year and has had a few long completions called back on holding penalties. Its really just too small a sample size to make a judgement yet...at least in my opinion.

    As of right now though, the above would be correct in that he has not, as yet, made people pay for letting him get out of the pocket.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:Just my 2 cents.

    I know the numbers don't bear this out right now...

    ...but you don't want him running out of the pocket either. He is one of the very few QBs who can run to his left and throw across his body accurately. He did it ALOT in college. He's been off by just inches on a few TD passes this year and has had a few long completions called back on holding penalties. Its really just too small a sample size to make a judgement yet...at least in my opinion.

    As of right now though, the above would be correct in that he has not, as yet, made people pay for letting him get out of the pocket.


    Yeah, to me it comes down to I would not want him in the pocket, and the numbers say I definitely want him out of the pocket. He seems to ball while in the pocket, and looks like John Skelton while outside of the pocket.

    Then again, stats can lie, so.....? :3-1:
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  • We should ram Kam into him with extreme violence. I know, I know..........
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  • I think the seahawk linebackers have tended to over commit in the past and while it might be good to force Kaepernick out of the pocket because his passing is poor, his running ability is far from poor so the outside backers need to be careful. I read several articles all with differing views on how to turn Kaepernick into a weakness for the 49ers, but that article seems to show a lot. I had ago at dissecting the matchup in a blog I started but being from Northern Ireland, there isn't a massive amount of coverage so i hope its accurate! http://northernirelandnflfan.wordpress. ... all-short/

    Do you think there will be much blitzing or do you think the seahawks will sit back and let the defensive line do their best?
    Blog: 'Northern Ireland NFL Fan' :) http://northernirelandnflfan.wordpress.com/
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  • hawksfan515 wrote:
    SacHawk2.0 wrote:I was doing my Montana impression


    if only .net had a thumb up button. lol

    And Bobblehead, what would you rather have, a sack or a pick?

    Both are great results though.


    Can I pick a sack with an ensuing fumble recovery? :D
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  • 1a
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  • I think this comes under the header "be careful what you wish for". K is a damned fine running QB also.

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  • Just come at him with multiple tattoo guns and a bible. He will sit right down.
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  • meh, let him throw and intercept it, anyone can recover a fummel...

    this should be a good one...
    GO HAWKS!!!
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  • Marvin49 wrote:Just my 2 cents.

    I know the numbers don't bear this out right now...

    ...but you don't want him running out of the pocket either. He is one of the very few QBs who can run to his left and throw across his body accurately. He did it ALOT in college. He's been off by just inches on a few TD passes this year and has had a few long completions called back on holding penalties. Its really just too small a sample size to make a judgement yet...at least in my opinion.

    As of right now though, the above would be correct in that he has not, as yet, made people pay for letting him get out of the pocket.


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  • Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.
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  • Disrupt the rhythm, delayed blitz, complex defense packages for a new QB is hard to understand. He will get better over time as he has the physical tools, the only way you can beat him is to get into his head. If he gets picked or sacked, if the game is too fast for him and we take away his reads or confuse him enough, we should be good. If we get to be ahead, that will also add pressure to pass the ball more, which is where you try to force it rather than the game come to you. I am sure he will be well coached, but until you face and do certain things, it does not come to you naturally. And of course 12th man noise. Don't let him get to a quick hot start and get ahead, then we make things easy for their defense and his future plays..run scramble..run..toss the ball, screen pass..But if we score by 2 points we can definitely contain him. I hope the Seahawks watched the Rams tape on how they handled him for the most part.
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  • kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    First, I find myself agreeing with you way too often nowadays, it must be the power of Wilson.

    Second, this is pretty much my observation as well. Kaep lives off the big play. I would be very curious to see if anyone can find a stat on drives of 80 or more yards that Kaep has completed without a big play.

    I already hear the argument that a big play counts for just as many points as a sustained time consuming drive but the flaw in big plays is they are harder to come by. 90% of the time when a big play happens it is because a player(s) made a mistake. While possible, it is more difficult to make another player make a mistake and create that opening.

    This is ultimately why I think Harbaugh made his first mistake. Alex Smith, while not flashy, should a consistent ability to sustain drives. Kaep has much more "wow" ability but I think he will struggle with consistency.
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  • More like force him out of seattle.
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  • kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    Thats pretty much incorrect at every level.
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  • amill87 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    First, I find myself agreeing with you way too often nowadays, it must be the power of Wilson.

    Second, this is pretty much my observation as well. Kaep lives off the big play. I would be very curious to see if anyone can find a stat on drives of 80 or more yards that Kaep has completed without a big play.

    I already hear the argument that a big play counts for just as many points as a sustained time consuming drive but the flaw in big plays is they are harder to come by. 90% of the time when a big play happens it is because a player(s) made a mistake. While possible, it is more difficult to make another player make a mistake and create that opening.

    This is ultimately why I think Harbaugh made his first mistake. Alex Smith, while not flashy, should a consistent ability to sustain drives. Kaep has much more "wow" ability but I think he will struggle with consistency.


    Well I disagree with the poster that you are agreeing with, but I do actually think there is some truth to your second point. Kaep DOES live off the big play and that IS a big reason he's in there. I do not agree however that the 49ers would be better off with Alex. Alex Smiths 3rd down rate is HORRIBLE. He doesn't get too many of those long drives either...AND he doesn't make the big plays.

    Kaeps 3rd down rate isn't so hot right now either, but those chunk plays are what the 49ers have been missing.

    We'll just have to see if he is able to get any of those against the Seahawks. I don't agree tho that big plays are just because someone made a mistake. Big plays can be engineered by scheming matchups. FOr example, the 49ers got 2 of them for TDs against the Pats by putting the FS in a bind and forcing him who to cover down the field.. They also got their game winner big play when the Pats sent an all out blitz and got cover 0 coverage leaving Crab 1 on 1 on a DB....and thats not good for DBs.
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  • kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    no offense or anything, but that may be the worst take on Kaepernick I've ever seen. There have been numerous examples of him improvising (two notable ones in the New England game, where he did an eye fake on a pass to Vernon Davis then hit Delaney Walker for a touchdown, and then the game winning scoring pass to Crabtree where the play was supposed to go elsewhere according to Harbaugh). Saying he's mechanical is just wishful thinking. And everyone's stats get padded on big plays that go according to plan. The eye test says he's effective out of the pocket, he can throw on the run with many different angles, and he's always looking downfield to throw rather than looking to run. It's likely the discrepancy in the stats is due to sample size.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    Thats pretty much incorrect at every level.



    Why am I not surprised to see you guys jump to defend Kaepernick?

    I know you guys haven't been here long, but Kearly's one of the most credible guys on the board. You might not like what he says, but that doesn't mean you should flat out disagree with him, which looks to be a common theme whenever he mentions something negative about the 49ers.
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  • hawksfan515 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    Thats pretty much incorrect at every level.



    Why am I not surprised to see you guys jump to defend Kaepernick?

    I know you guys haven't been here long, but Kearly's one of the most credible guys on the board. You might not like what he says, but that doesn't mean you should flat out disagree with him, which looks to be a common theme whenever he mentions something negative about the 49ers.


    I don't care who he is. If he says something I agree with I'll agree with him. When he says stuff that's completely false I'll disagree. So far I've heard him essentially say that Kaep is a "One-Read" QB who can't create anything and his stats only look good because some well designed plays have "padded his stats".

    Sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    I'd like to think that I'm a fairly well respected poster on my own board, but if I told a Seahawks fan there that Wilson was a one read QB who couldn't create...you'd find that pretty amusing as well. I'd also be wrong....just as Kearly is here.

    I get that you might be inclined to agree with him based on your respect for him. Thats all good. That's a good thing. There are posters like that on every board. I don't however have to agree with him when he says something that's flat false just because YOU respect him.
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  • I don't care who he is. If he says something I agree with I'll agree with him. When he says stuff that's completely false I'll disagree. So far I've heard him essentially say that Kaep is a "One-Read" QB who can't create anything and his stats only look good because some well designed plays have "padded his stats".

    Sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    I'd like to think that I'm a fairly well respected poster on my own board, but if I told a Seahawks fan there that Wilson was a one read QB who couldn't create...you'd find that pretty amusing as well. I'd also be wrong....just as Kearly is here.

    I get that you might be inclined to agree with him based on your respect for him. Thats all good. That's a good thing. There are posters like that on every board. I don't however have to agree with him when he says something that's flat false just because YOU respect him.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

    Pretty sure Heath Evans on NFL network had a breakdown of Kaepernick showing that he definitely stares down the guy he is throwing to the majority of the time. I don't think Kaepernick has enough games under his belt to really judge him yet. Usually takes most NFL teams having 5 or 6 games of film on a guy to really get a good solid read for how they play and to gameplan defensively for them. Even as a Seahawks fan i have a lot of respect for the 49ers. I won't lie in the fact that i am worried that you can beat us. Our run defense hasn't been the same since that first game and adding Kaepernick to that equation complicates things even more. I respect Kaepernick as a runner but not so much as a passer just yet. But i think you guys will find that Russell has gotten immensely better since the first matchup and you guys have added a more explosive element to the QB position on offense. Will be interesting to see what happens in this game. But teams don't come into our house and win to often. GL on sunday. Should be a great game. GO HAWKS!
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  • Kelly.Orr wrote:I don't care who he is. If he says something I agree with I'll agree with him. When he says stuff that's completely false I'll disagree. So far I've heard him essentially say that Kaep is a "One-Read" QB who can't create anything and his stats only look good because some well designed plays have "padded his stats".

    Sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    I'd like to think that I'm a fairly well respected poster on my own board, but if I told a Seahawks fan there that Wilson was a one read QB who couldn't create...you'd find that pretty amusing as well. I'd also be wrong....just as Kearly is here.

    I get that you might be inclined to agree with him based on your respect for him. Thats all good. That's a good thing. There are posters like that on every board. I don't however have to agree with him when he says something that's flat false just because YOU respect him.
    [/quote][/quote]

    Pretty sure Heath Evans on NFL network had a breakdown of Kaepernick showing that he definitely stares down the guy he is throwing to the majority of the time. I don't think Kaepernick has enough games under his belt to really judge him yet. Usually takes most NFL teams having 5 or 6 games of film on a guy to really get a good solid read for how they play and to gameplan defensively for them. Even as a Seahawks fan i have a lot of respect for the 49ers. I won't lie in the fact that i am worried that you can beat us. Our run defense hasn't been the same since that first game and adding Kaepernick to that equation complicates things even more. I respect Kaepernick as a runner but not so much as a passer just yet. But i think you guys will find that Russell has gotten immensely better since the first matchup and you guys have added a more explosive element to the QB position on offense. Will be interesting to see what happens in this game. But teams don't come into our house and win to often. GL on sunday. Should be a great game. GO HAWKS![/quote]

    I'm pretty sure Heath Evans is a complete moron. LOL. Can't stand that guy.

    Both Trent Dilfer and Steve Young have said something very different. I'll trust the guys who have played the position...plus my own eyes.

    Your comment about being worried about his legs is fairly typical of the way Kaep is being covered in the media. Yes. He's mobile. He looks like a freakin' deer out there sometimes. That's NOT what has SF fans excited about him tho.

    Its his passing that has shocked us. HUGE arm. Accuracy down the field. CALM. Doesn't get nervous. Has made some young QB mistakes, but doesn't make them twice.

    I've seen Wilson play and I've been impressed. I think you guys are in for a treat watching Kaep. ;-) I think these 2 teams are going to be fighting for this division every year and these 2 young QBs are part of a new breed of NFL stars.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Its his passing that has shocked us. HUGE arm. Accuracy down the field. CALM. Doesn't get nervous. Has made some young QB mistakes, but doesn't make them twice.


    First, about Kearly. I have disagreed with him quite often. I respect him, he works his ass off to study the game and has a great football mind. But I don't agree with him just because of those things, I agree with him on this because he's seeing what Niner fans are putting blinders on to avoid seeing.

    Now on to your quote. I think you guys have had to deal with Smith for so long, ANYBODY that can throw the ball down field is going to get you excited. From what I've seen of him, he is just as likely to miss a deep throw as he is to connect on it.

    The mental side of being a QB is the hardest part. It's why so many QBs that are accurate, athletic, and have a big arm fail. And once a QB is outside the pocket (most of the time, designed roll outs are an anomaly), the play has actually started to break down. Things are no longer as the coaches drew it up and it falls on the QB to now re-read the defense and try to find an opening quickly.

    The difference between the QBR from the inside the pocket to outside the pocket for Kaep is staggering. It lends merit to Kearly's view that Kaep isn't as good when plays don't go perfect. We can discredit QBR all day (again I know it's not perfect) but it does paint a generic picture of what is going on on the field.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:I don't care who he is. If he says something I agree with I'll agree with him. When he says stuff that's completely false I'll disagree. So far I've heard him essentially say that Kaep is a "One-Read" QB who can't create anything and his stats only look good because some well designed plays have "padded his stats".

    Sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    I'd like to think that I'm a fairly well respected poster on my own board, but if I told a Seahawks fan there that Wilson was a one read QB who couldn't create...you'd find that pretty amusing as well. I'd also be wrong....just as Kearly is here.

    I get that you might be inclined to agree with him based on your respect for him. Thats all good. That's a good thing. There are posters like that on every board. I don't however have to agree with him when he says something that's flat false just because YOU respect him.

    I think you better go back and read Kearly's post again because I don't know how you get that our of what he said. Where did he say, or even imply "one-read" or padded stats? Sure you're free to disagree with what he says, but I'd suggest that you try to understand it a little better before you start disagreeing with it...otherwise the credibility you are undermining is your own...
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  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    Its his passing that has shocked us. HUGE arm. Accuracy down the field. CALM. Doesn't get nervous. Has made some young QB mistakes, but doesn't make them twice.


    First, about Kearly. I have disagreed with him quite often. I respect him, he works his ass off to study the game and has a great football mind. But I don't agree with him just because of those things, I agree with him on this because he's seeing what Niner fans are putting blinders on to avoid seeing.

    Now on to your quote. I think you guys have had to deal with Smith for so long, ANYBODY that can throw the ball down field is going to get you excited. From what I've seen of him, he is just as likely to miss a deep throw as he is to connect on it.

    The mental side of being a QB is the hardest part. It's why so many QBs that are accurate, athletic, and have a big arm fail. And once a QB is outside the pocket (most of the time, designed roll outs are an anomaly), the play has actually started to break down. Things are no longer as the coaches drew it up and it falls on the QB to now re-read the defense and try to find an opening quickly.

    The difference between the QBR from the inside the pocket to outside the pocket for Kaep is staggering. It lends merit to Kearly's view that Kaep isn't as good when plays don't go perfect. We can discredit QBR all day (again I know it's not perfect) but it does paint a generic picture of what is going on on the field.



    LOL.

    The "blinders" comment is funny. We actually WATCH the Niner games. We see him play every week. I've watched most of his college games as well (tenyardtorrents is a wonderful thing). You expect me to believe that a Seahawk fan can somehow break Kaep down better than WE can when we watch him all the time? Seriously? Do you think I could possibly give you better insight into Russell Wilson than the better posters on your board can? Of course not. I don't even try.

    The QBR thing....LOL. That is a completely useless stat. Kaep has the second highest QBR in the NFL behind Manning....but I still think the thing is worthless.

    You are looking at numbers alone. Would the numbers tell you that he had a nearly 50 yard completion while scrambling to Michael Crabtree vs the Saints (GREAT throw) that was called back on a holding call? Would it tell you that he made a great throw on the run to Delanie Walker vs the Rams that should have been the game winner had Walker not dropped it? Would it tell you that he's adept at getting away, constantly keeping his eyes downfield and throwing the ball away at the last second to avoid the sack? Would it tell you that on his second NFL TD he looked left to his first covered reciever, moved to his second reciever, moved to his left and slightly backwards coming to his third read (Michael Crabtree who broke off his route) and threw the TD like it was nothing. Link Below...at 2:17. Also note on the first TD, Davis was his second option.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxtqcPPM_3E

    It's WAY too small a sample size to make anything of the QBR. An extra 70+ yards and a TD would make it look very different.

    The excitement about Kaep has nothing to do with blinders. The blinders here are in Seattle where peeps really don't want the Niners to have a great QB (and yes, it's too early to call him that). You guys should hear Steve Young on the radio here. He's beside himself over Kaep.
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  • gtcotcakya wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:I don't care who he is. If he says something I agree with I'll agree with him. When he says stuff that's completely false I'll disagree. So far I've heard him essentially say that Kaep is a "One-Read" QB who can't create anything and his stats only look good because some well designed plays have "padded his stats".

    Sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    I'd like to think that I'm a fairly well respected poster on my own board, but if I told a Seahawks fan there that Wilson was a one read QB who couldn't create...you'd find that pretty amusing as well. I'd also be wrong....just as Kearly is here.

    I get that you might be inclined to agree with him based on your respect for him. Thats all good. That's a good thing. There are posters like that on every board. I don't however have to agree with him when he says something that's flat false just because YOU respect him.

    I think you better go back and read Kearly's post again because I don't know how you get that our of what he said. Where did he say, or even imply "one-read" or padded stats? Sure you're free to disagree with what he says, but I'd suggest that you try to understand it a little better before you start disagreeing with it...otherwise the credibility you are undermining is your own...


    This isn't the only thread in which he has posted in regards to Kaep. I do my research and clearly have been playing more attention than you have.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    Thats pretty much incorrect at every level.

    Okay, let's go back you your original response than and why don't you try to break it down again. Please explain why you disagree with THIS statement on every level.

    Or actually, even better please give us your explanation for why the discrepency between the inside the pocket and outside the pocket numbers. That's what I'm trying to understand. If Kearly's explanation isn't right, what is yours?
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  • Firstly, I completely agree about Heath Evans. The majority of the NFL network pundits are hall of famers/potential hall of famers, great players, or know a lot about the game. Heath Evans is none of those things!

    Anyway, I feel before the Patriots game Kaep was good but I think people have got carried away with thinking he is a 'pocket passer', and he has dealt with the pressure well, but I still think Wilson has the edge. only 2 interceptions in his last 7 games and I'm not sure of Kaep's statistics but not sure he has had to make many big throws apart from in the game last week.

    And also, nearly all young quarterbacks, including tim tebow can throw the ball well down field (they wudn't be in the NFL if their hand eye co-ordination wasn't amazing) so I don't think that quality means much because there are other attributes that separate the good from the great.
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  • gtcotcakya wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Something to remember is that a QB throwing outside the pocket is usually one that is facing or having just escaped imminent pressure. Kaepernick is a mechanical QB- meaning that if everything goes to plan he's effective, but when things go to hell he tends to shut down mentally. That probably explains the gap in his numbers. Kaepernick has padded his stats on a few big plays that went according to plan in every game.


    Thats pretty much incorrect at every level.

    Okay, let's go back you your original response than and why don't you try to break it down again. Please explain why you disagree with THIS statement on every level.

    Or actually, even better please give us your explanation for why the discrepency between the inside the pocket and outside the pocket numbers. That's what I'm trying to understand. If Kearly's explanation isn't right, what is yours?


    Simply read my other posts on this very page.
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  • So you believe an almost 70 point difference in QBR is due solely to sample size?

    Really? :roll:
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  • NornIron wrote:Firstly, I completely agree about Heath Evans. The majority of the NFL network pundits are hall of famers/potential hall of famers, great players, or know a lot about the game. Heath Evans is none of those things!

    Anyway, I feel before the Patriots game Kaep was good but I think people have got carried away with thinking he is a 'pocket passer', and he has dealt with the pressure well, but I still think Wilson has the edge. only 2 interceptions in his last 7 games and I'm not sure of Kaep's statistics but not sure he has had to make many big throws apart from in the game last week.

    And also, nearly all young quarterbacks, including tim tebow can throw the ball well down field (they wudn't be in the NFL if their hand eye co-ordination wasn't amazing) so I don't think that quality means much because there are other attributes that separate the good from the great.


    LOL...Evans...Moron. :D

    I'm not comparing Kaep to Wilson here. I did that on another thread, but I can only use numbers in that analysis because I don't see him play every game as I do with Kaep. My opinion on Wilson given what little I have seen is that he's very good and will probably be a thorn in the side of my Niners for years to come.

    My argument here is specifically with the things people are telling themselves and the board about Kaepernick. It's nuts. Peeps clearly have NO idea what they are talking about. Kaep is FAR from perfect. He has had and issue with fumbling the snap (particularly in New England). He has taken a few sacks he shouldn't have because he was trying to push the ball downfield. He has thrown 2 picks that were clear mistakes (1 was a low snap that took his eyes off the D and he threw it right to a DB dropping into a zone, and the other was a play where he ran play action and he never got his head all the way around to spot the backside safety on a deep route to Moss). There is stuff he needs to work on to be sure...

    ...but it seems most peeps here are trying to write him off as a flash in the pan, or one trick pony, or whatever more out of HOPE then any actual real information.
    Last edited by Marvin49 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • gtcotcakya wrote:So you believe an almost 70 point difference in QBR is due solely to sample size?

    Really? :roll:


    Quite simply? Yes. Watch the games. Wonderful things happen when you put numbers in CONTEXT.

    Kaep has 5 starts. FIVE. What did Wilsons #s look like after 5 games? Should I have drawn all my conclusions from those games? Perhaps WATCHING those games would have given me a different story.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    gtcotcakya wrote:So you believe an almost 70 point difference in QBR is due solely to sample size?

    Really? :roll:


    Quite simply? Yes. Watch the games. Wonderful things happen when you put numbers in CONTEXT.

    Kaep has 5 starts. FIVE. What did Wilsons #s look like after 5 games? Should I have drawn all my conclusions from those games? Perhaps WATCHING those games would have given me a different story.

    looking at what Sando wrote, guys with lots more games, like Alex Smith and Sam Bradford, never got better outside the pocket. Why is Kaepernick the exception?
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    gtcotcakya wrote:So you believe an almost 70 point difference in QBR is due solely to sample size?

    Really? :roll:


    Quite simply? Yes. Watch the games. Wonderful things happen when you put numbers in CONTEXT.

    Kaep has 5 starts. FIVE. What did Wilsons #s look like after 5 games? Should I have drawn all my conclusions from those games? Perhaps WATCHING those games would have given me a different story.

    looking at what Sando wrote, guys with lots more games, like Alex Smith and Sam Bradford, never got better outside the pocket. Why is Kaepernick the exception?


    OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!


    So you have youtube highlights as your evidence?

    I openly admit I haven't seen tons of Kaep but what I have seen from as a passer hasn't made think "wow he's one of the best in the league". His running ability scares me much more than his arm. I HAVE seen him miss wide open guys quite often in such a small sample size. Every QB misses guys but IMO I have seen an alarming amount of misses. Like I said, I think you guys like Kaep so much because he is NOT Alex Smith
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  • Also like to add that I'm sure Kearly has watched tons of tape on Kaep. It's almost a job for the guy. He's said over numerous threads that he wanted the Hawks to draft him. I would even wager that he has watched more "tape" on Kaep than most Niner fans.
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  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!


    So you have youtube highlights as your evidence?

    I openly admit I haven't seen tons of Kaep but what I have seen from as a passer hasn't made think "wow he's one of the best in the league". His running ability scares me much more than his arm. I HAVE seen him miss wide open guys quite often in such a small sample size. Every QB misses guys but IMO I have seen an alarming amount of misses. Like I said, I think you guys like Kaep so much because he is NOT Alex Smith



    Sigh...No....I WATCHED THE GAMES. Am I speaking a different language? LOL. I don't know how to make this more clear...

    As for the Highlight reel on Youtube, I MADE it. I POSTED it. I WATCHED THE GAMES (maybe if I say it a bunch of times people will see it...lol).

    As for missing an "alarming number of times", the 65+% comp % would disagree with you. So would his 8.4 yards per attempt (best in the NFL among starting QBs). Then again, I've been saying stats don't tell the whole story...so disregard that. :D

    The only player he's had an issue with on overthrows is Vernon Davis. They haven't quite been on the same page. Vernon has told Colin that he's not as fast as Colin thinks he is and to take something off the ball when throwing to him. LOL. They have a running joke that Vernon wants Colin to stop working out so much (gymrat) because his arm is already strong enough. LOL.
    Last edited by Marvin49 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • amill87 wrote:Also like to add that I'm sure Kearly has watched tons of tape on Kaep. It's almost a job for the guy. He's said over numerous threads that he wanted the Hawks to draft him. I would even wager that he has watched more "tape" on Kaep than most Niner fans.


    I don't doubt it. I knew the Niners were going to take a QB last year so I got my hands on everything I could find in regards to just about every draft eligable QB there was.

    I was SOOOOOOOOO happy they didn't take Gabbert. LOL!! WHEW!!

    Some of his criticism is correct in regards to Kaep...WHEN HE WAS IN COLLEGE. The "One-read" thing in particular. It just isn't the case anymore. Now there are times that he stays on his #1 longer than he should because he is always trying to hit the big play...the deep pass. THAT is fair, but he has thrown multiple TDs this year to his second or 3rd options.

    My biggest concern with Kaep tho when he was drafted was his delivery. Really long with inconsistent angles. Just...Odd. They appear to have doe something with it. Not sure what. It's still a bit funky, but his delivery is MUCH faster than it was in college.

    I'm not trying to slam Kearly or something. I don't even know him. I simply completely disagree with his assessment of the player Kaep is RIGHT NOW.
    Last edited by Marvin49 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!

    I do waste my time watching Niner games. I record most of their games on Direct TV, I like knowing the competition. I see that you don't, no biggie, but it explains your rose colored glasses. I was on point with Colin in college too, Seattle was in the QB market that year.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!

    I do waste my time watching Niner games. I record most of their games on Direct TV, I like knowing the competition. I see that you don't, no biggie, but it explains your rose colored glasses. I was on point with Colin in college too, Seattle was in the QB market that year.


    Sigh...Rose Colored glasses.

    I have direcTV as well but not the Sunday Ticket. I have 2 kinds and don't have the time to watch all the games I would like on Sundays. That's why I am not saying anything to you guys about Wilson. I've seen most of the National games he's played, but thats not enough to form an opinion I'd argue for. I've watched football tho for almost 30 years so I know what I'm seeing when I watch football. That was the reason I DEPARATELY wanted the 49ers to draft Aaron Rodgers over Alex Smith. LOL. I kept hoping they would trade Alex and somehow trade back into round one to get Aaron (I was obviously deparate as that would clearly never happen). Aaron probably would never have become what he is now in that Nolan/Singletary disfunction, but I liked Aaron MUCH, MUCH more than Alex.

    Yeah...I really liked Colin in college, but I have to admit the delivery really threw me. They have done some work with him tho. Its MUCH faster now than it was in college. I'm also not wild about the way he sometimes holds the ball Walter Payton-style...and that's NOT a complimant. He holds it like a loaf of bread sometimes. He seems to be better at tucking it away (when he's not fumbling the snap) in recent weeks...but it had me nervous.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!

    I do waste my time watching Niner games. I record most of their games on Direct TV, I like knowing the competition. I see that you don't, no biggie, but it explains your rose colored glasses. I was on point with Colin in college too, Seattle was in the QB market that year.


    Sigh...Rose Colored glasses.

    I have direcTV as well but not the Sunday Ticket. I have 2 kinds and don't have the time to watch all the games I would like on Sundays. That's why I am not saying anything to you guys about Wilson. I've seen most of the National games he's played, but thats not enough to form an opinion I'd argue for. I've watched football tho for almost 30 years so I know what I'm seeing when I watch football. That was the reason I DEPARATELY wanted the 49ers to draft Aaron Rodgers over Alex Smith. LOL. I kept hoping they would trade Alex and somehow trade back into round one to get Aaron (I was obviously deparate as that would clearly never happen). Aaron probably would never have become what he is now in that Nolan/Singletary disfunction, but I liked Aaron MUCH, MUCH more than Alex.

    Yeah...I really liked Colin in college, but I have to admit the delivery really threw me. They have done some work with him tho. Its MUCH faster now than it was in college. I'm also not wild about the way he sometimes holds the ball Walter Payton-style...and that's NOT a complimant. He holds it like a loaf of bread sometimes. He seems to be better at tucking it away (when he's not fumbling the snap) in recent weeks...but it had me nervous.

    My concerns about Kaep are more conjecture based on non mechanical things, and I won't share them here because they are about his personality, and they are my opinion only. I will say San Fran coaches have done tons with his footwork and release. The way he carries the ball probably won't change much, it has been a part of his game for a while now, and besides, the second a scrambling QB tucks the ball, the D knows he isn't throwing. Some of the issues that plagued Matt Hasselbeck never really went away either. Colin's hands are smallish, fumbles may always be an issue, especially in cold weather games. It always plagued one of our best quarterbacks of yester year, Dave Kreig.

    On topic, the reason Seattle should try to get him out of the pocket is that as of yet, he has not been effective there, and in pass situations, we will have Irvin chasing, and he is faster than Colin. We had two different players, Wagner and Irvin, chase Cam Newton down from behind, so we do have the speed.

    Will we? Probably not. Jason Jones is out for the year, and was ineffective for weeks now anyway, but we don't collapse the pocket all that well. I like Colin's ability to hit sideline throws over defenders, which is often what we try to make QBs do, so he will probably hit a few there.

    Mostly, I want to see what he does if he has to play from behind. that is one thing we have not seen from him, outside of the game where he was subbing against the rams.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:OK...I don't know how else to put this...WATCH THE GAMES. He is ACCURATE outside the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. When he was drafted Trent Dilfer said he was the most accurate QB he had ever seen on the run. If you don't believe me, I have in on Youtube as a part of all of the Niner picks that year. I also have a video of a bunch of his college film where he is...wait for it...running and throwing accurately downfield. I can supply that as well but my assumption is that you wouldn't want to waste your time watching Niner vids (I'd be the same way...lol).

    This is college tape. I get that, but he has shown signs of the same stuff both in practice and in games. Some plays have been called back on holding and some have been drops by the TE/WR (Delanie Walker can be maddening at times).

    Alex Smith and Sam Bradford have NEVER shown signs of that on any level. Alex in particular...and I like Alex...lol. My assumption isnt "yeah, he'll get better because they all do". Its that I'VE SEEN HIM DO IT!!

    I do waste my time watching Niner games. I record most of their games on Direct TV, I like knowing the competition. I see that you don't, no biggie, but it explains your rose colored glasses. I was on point with Colin in college too, Seattle was in the QB market that year.


    Sigh...Rose Colored glasses.

    I have direcTV as well but not the Sunday Ticket. I have 2 kinds and don't have the time to watch all the games I would like on Sundays. That's why I am not saying anything to you guys about Wilson. I've seen most of the National games he's played, but thats not enough to form an opinion I'd argue for. I've watched football tho for almost 30 years so I know what I'm seeing when I watch football. That was the reason I DEPARATELY wanted the 49ers to draft Aaron Rodgers over Alex Smith. LOL. I kept hoping they would trade Alex and somehow trade back into round one to get Aaron (I was obviously deparate as that would clearly never happen). Aaron probably would never have become what he is now in that Nolan/Singletary disfunction, but I liked Aaron MUCH, MUCH more than Alex.

    Yeah...I really liked Colin in college, but I have to admit the delivery really threw me. They have done some work with him tho. Its MUCH faster now than it was in college. I'm also not wild about the way he sometimes holds the ball Walter Payton-style...and that's NOT a complimant. He holds it like a loaf of bread sometimes. He seems to be better at tucking it away (when he's not fumbling the snap) in recent weeks...but it had me nervous.

    My concerns about Kaep are more conjecture based on non mechanical things, and I won't share them here because they are about his personality, and they are my opinion only. I will say San Fran coaches have done tons with his footwork and release. The way he carries the ball probably won't change much, it has been a part of his game for a while now, and besides, the second a scrambling QB tucks the ball, the D knows he isn't throwing. Some of the issues that plagued Matt Hasselbeck never really went away either. Colin's hands are smallish, fumbles may always be an issue, especially in cold weather games. It always plagued one of our best quarterbacks of yester year, Dave Kreig.

    On topic, the reason Seattle should try to get him out of the pocket is that as of yet, he has not been effective there, and in pass situations, we will have Irvin chasing, and he is faster than Colin. We had two different players, Wagner and Irvin, chase Cam Newton down from behind, so we do have the speed.

    Will we? Probably not. Jason Jones is out for the year, and was ineffective for weeks now anyway, but we don't collapse the pocket all that well. I like Colin's ability to hit sideline throws over defenders, which is often what we try to make QBs do, so he will probably hit a few there.

    Mostly, I want to see what he does if he has to play from behind. that is one thing we have not seen from him, outside of the game where he was subbing against the rams.[/quote]








    Well, you got me curious about your personality concern. Seems like a model kid with confidense and doesn't get nervous.

    I respect it tho if you don't want to share them. No worries. I just hope its not about the tattoos. Sigh. That article was pretty sad.

    I remember Dave Kreig. Doesn't he still hold the fumble record for a career?

    I know you guys have ALOT of speed on D so I have no doubt that people can chase Colin down. This will be a tough game with 2 really good defenses.

    Its funny you mention those passes outside the numbers. That is PRECISELY what Alex has never been able to do on anything remotely considered a consistant basis. He simply couldn't do it. He's always over throw the pass by 5-10 yards. I can't tell you the look of frustration on Michael Crabtrees face after those throws. Crab is viewed aroudn the league as something of a disappointment, but he is really starting to play well now that Kaep is back there. He has all but replaced Vernon Davis as the "go-to" receiver.
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  • Marvin49 should listen to the Dilfer interview posted in this forum.
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  • pehawk wrote:Marvin49 should listen to the Dilfer interview posted in this forum.


    Which one. Link it and I will.
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