Wilson vs. Kaep straight up.... who do you take?

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Wilson or Kaepernick?

Wilson
181
92%
Kaepernick
16
8%
 
Total votes : 197

  • Both are damn good

    I don't see what the debate is about
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    Shaz
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  • Marvin, while I agree that Largent's "it isn't even close" statement is over the top, you can't compare their first 5 starts. Kaepernick studied and learned for a year-and-a-half, plus playoff experience through the NFCCG. Wilson's first 5 starts were right off the bat as a rookie. That is NOT comparable, no matter how much you may want it to be.

    Kaepernick is taking twice as many sacks and is fumbling the football FIVE TIMES MORE than Wilson. Those are the two really telling ones. Even if you completely remove his 4 fumbles @ Foxboro, he's fumbling quite a bit more per game than Wilson, and I'm including every game for Wilson in that average.

    If Kaepernick keeps fumbling and taking sacks (the latter one points to better athleticism/pocket presence by Wilson, IMO) the way he has been, he's never going to be a great QB.
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  • Marvin,

    Wilson started out slow because the playbook was held back for him as a rookie. How about we just look at the last 6 games between the two?

    TDS: Wilson: 11 Kaep: 7
    Avg QB rating: Wilson: 113.5 Kaep: 100
    Turnovers: Wilson: 1 INT 3 fumbles Kaep: 2 INT 8 fumbles
    Avg comp %: Kaep 66.4 Wilson 64.1

    Kaep has been good since he's taken over but Wilson has been even better. I mentioned this in another thread, the Niners defense is still what is carrying the team. Wilson is now carrying the Seahawks.

    Also the Seahawks have played the #20, #8, #17, #5, #11, and #24 ranked defenses. While the Niners have played #9 twice, #5, #32, #17, and #27 ranked defenses. Take the average ranking of the defenses faced and the Seahawks have played the 14.1 ranked defense while the Niners have played the 16.5 ranked defense.

    Also as Sando has pointed out, Wilson leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 (when we started opening the playbook for him) and he is second to only Aaron Rodgers in qb rating in the past 10 weeks
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  • amill87 wrote:Marvin,

    Wilson started out slow because the playbook was held back for him as a rookie. How about we just look at the last 6 games between the two?

    TDS: Wilson: 11 Kaep: 7
    Avg QB rating: Wilson: 113.5 Kaep: 100
    Turnovers: Wilson: 1 INT 3 fumbles Kaep: 2 INT 8 fumbles
    Avg comp %: Kaep 66.4 Wilson 64.1

    Kaep has been good since he's taken over but Wilson has been even better. I mentioned this in another thread, the Niners defense is still what is carrying the team. Wilson is now carrying the Seahawks.

    Also the Seahawks have played the #20, #8, #17, #5, #11, and #24 ranked defenses. While the Niners have played #9 twice, #5, #32, #17, and #27 ranked defenses. Take the average ranking of the defenses faced and the Seahawks have played the 14.1 ranked defense while the Niners have played the 16.5 ranked defense.

    Also as Sando has pointed out, Wilson leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 (when we started opening the playbook for him) and he is second to only Aaron Rodgers in qb rating in the past 10 weeks



    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Marvin, while I agree that Largent's "it isn't even close" statement is over the top, you can't compare their first 5 starts. Kaepernick studied and learned for a year-and-a-half, plus playoff experience through the NFCCG. Wilson's first 5 starts were right off the bat as a rookie. That is NOT comparable, no matter how much you may want it to be.

    Kaepernick is taking twice as many sacks and is fumbling the football FIVE TIMES MORE than Wilson. Those are the two really telling ones. Even if you completely remove his 4 fumbles @ Foxboro, he's fumbling quite a bit more per game than Wilson, and I'm including every game for Wilson in that average.

    If Kaepernick keeps fumbling and taking sacks (the latter one points to better athleticism/pocket presence by Wilson, IMO) the way he has been, he's never going to be a great QB.


    Wilson played at a big division school against top competition. Kaep played at Nevada. Kaep was raw as Sushi coming in. Yes, he had a year to sit and it worked wonders, but lets not make it out like he is a seasoned vet. These are his first 5 NFL starts. You guys are making it out like he has topped out and won't improve. He has HUGE potential to get even better. Is Wilson the only one who shows promise?

    As for the fumbles, of course that can't continue. It WILL improve. Thats part of him being as raw as he is. He never took a snap in college. Its something he will learn and improve on. I'm sure Wilson made a few mistakes in those first few games, did he not?
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  • Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.
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  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I included the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes. Kaep is effectively a rookie. He is learning on the job. Hell, as you have seen he still has trouble with the center exchange.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and Kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.
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  • Marvin I don't think that's the general thought of Seahawks fans at all

    Yeah you have a few dumbasses that are obviously bias homers but overall we all believe Kaep is a very good QB and will continue to be so
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    AbsolutNET wrote:WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. Are you trying to tell me that 9er fans think Kap is better, and Hawks fans think Wilson is better?


    Some Seahawks "fans" seem to think Kaepernick is better. WHIP OUT THE BAN STICK! :lol:

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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.[/quote]


    Have you even read the whole of my first post? In the SAME POST I made the comparison with Wilsons LAST 5. I didn't pull the #5 out of thin air...that is the number of starts that Kaep has. It's just that simple.

    I'm not making Kaep out to be Montana...I'm saying that it's an argument over whos better, Wilson or Kaep.

    I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?
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  • Shaz wrote:Marvin I don't think that's the general thought of Seahawks fans at all

    Yeah you have a few dumbasses that are obviously bias homers but overall we all believe Kaep is a very good QB and will continue to be so


    I understand that. ;-) Thanks.

    It's always the extremes you argue with...just like in politics. Its the same on our boards as well. When I say "you guys", I'm aware I'm most often talking with the less clear-sighted people on the boards. ;-)
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  • Marvin49 wrote:
    amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:

    Well...

    1) Kaep hasn't started 6 games...he has started 5. He came in for an injured Alex Smith in that first Rams game. I also MADE that comparison in my post...so not sure why you are rehashing the argument unless its just to try to scew the number to throw in a 3TD game for Wilson


    2) My entire argument isn't that "Kaep is better". I'm saying its not a case that it "isn't even close" You can say that Kaep had a full year, but you can also say that Wilson came in MUCH more pro ready than Kaep did. Kaep was RAW when he was drafted.


    I would counter that with Wilson has left the past two games early. Wilson has 143 attempts over that span and Kaep has 145. So they have nearly the same attempts but Wilson is doing more.


    LOL, is that how it works now?

    Sigh.

    Anything to make the number say what you want, right? I uncluded the last 5 games for Wilson in my initial post (which are better than Kaep), but that just wasn't enough? LOL. Say what you want about the respective defenses, but I'd like to see Wilson go into Foxborough in December and knock off the Pats with 4 TD passes.

    I have alot of respect for Russell Wilson, but you guys are making it out like he's the next Montana and kaep is just a flash in the pan. Its pretty comical. LOL.


    And the Niner fans are making Kaep out to be the next Montana after he's only played 6 games. It goes both ways.

    You were skewing your facts by comparing their first 5 games when you know Wilson was a rookie with a limited playbook coming off an offseason where he split reps. Kaep had much more time to get a feel with the playbook and Kaep has a superior offensive coach.

    Let's just throw out those numbers than. Wilson still leads the NFL in QBR since week 6 and second highest QB rating the past 10 weeks. He's been playing at some of the highest level of all the QBs in the league for quite awhile now.

    I think Kaep is playing at a high level right now. The question is who would I want straight up and if I'm basing that decision off of right now, I gotta go with Wilson due to performing better. It's not a knock on Kaep.[/quote]

    Oh...and BTW, Kaep didn't even get to split his reps...HE WASN'T THE STARTER.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?


    Like I said, QBR since week 6. Sando has stated it multiple times on his blog.

    I think you're missing the point. Both have potential to be really good but potential is potential for a reason. It is not yet achieved. If we are basing a decision purely off what is directly in front of us right now, Wilson is barely ahead.

    I like to compare it a little bit to pitchers in baseball. When a young pitcher comes on, you don't really know how good he is until he plays for awhile. He might be as good as he looks but than he might just be catching everyone off guard and once everyone knows what he is about, he suddenly isn't as good. This holds true for both Wilson and Kaep.
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  • I think with both fanbases there is such a passion due to how we're playing that it's created this "We rule the world" mentality which of course is ok

    I think both teams have cemented themselves as the 2 most Physical and baddest teams in the NFL
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  • Shaz wrote:I think with both fanbases there is such a passion due to how we're playing that it's created this "We rule the world" mentality which of course is ok

    I think both teams have cemented themselves as the 2 most Physical and baddest teams in the NFL


    That much we can agree on. ;-) I was aguing with a Pats fan last week. All he was talking about was how the SEC linebackers were the most physical in the NFL and "better" than the 49ers LBs. :shock:

    Um...wha!?!

    LOL!

    Yeah...and Danny Woodhead is more physical than Marshawn Lynch, right? Lunatics in every forum.
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  • amill87 wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:I'm not sure exactly which QBR you are talking about. If it's the ESPN one I'm linking below, then Colin is second only to Peyton Manning in total QBR.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    If you mean regular QB rating, then the number are better for Wilson, but not SOOO much better that this isn't even a comparison. Kaep has only started 5 games in his entire career and he's had a rating higher than 100 3 times. You guys want to keep setting aside Colins numbers based on his "experince" of sitting on the bench for 1.5 years. I'm willing to give Wilson credit for the fact that he's improved dramatically, but are you unwilling to see that kaep has done this in 5 freaking starts and might have a SIMILAR trajectory upwards?


    Like I said, QBR since week 6. Sando has stated it multiple times on his blog.

    I think you're missing the point. Both have potential to be really good but potential is potential for a reason. It is not yet achieved. If we are basing a decision purely off what is directly in front of us right now, Wilson is barely ahead.

    I like to compare it a little bit to pitchers in baseball. When a young pitcher comes on, you don't really know how good he is until he plays for awhile. He might be as good as he looks but than he might just be catching everyone off guard and once everyone knows what he is about, he suddenly isn't as good. This holds true for both Wilson and Kaep.


    Well, I don't have the numbers in front of me to compute that so I'll trust you on that one. To be honest tho, even though Colin being second on that list looks pretty impressive, I'm not really a fan of QBR.


    If all you are saying is that right now Wilson is slightly ahead of Colin then we have nothing to argue about. Colin has only started 5 games, so I'd anticipate him being much better 6 starts from now than he is now...altho that would be next year...if I'm doing the math right hopefully the season opener of next year. :D
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  • Marvin49 wrote:

    Finally...athletic ability. This one is tough to judge. Wilson is 5'11", 206, very mobile, and has a good arm. Kaep is 6'4 or 6'5", 230+, and is also very mobile....and has a CANNON of an arm.


    So, in conclusion....the argument can be made that either guy is "better". I, of course would take Kaep, but suggesting it "isn't even close" is simply lunacy.


    Good arm? Lets be clear here, Russ has a CANNON of arm as with sweet touch on his passes. Kap, I've seen him fling it but don't know if he's got the touch like Russ.
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  • QBR is a joke. Every week there's some huge discrepancy on there; either a QB who should be much higher, or one that should be much lower. Until/unless they release the math on how they calculate it in its entirety, it's not to be trusted.

    It surprises me that so many 49ers fans claim Kaepernick's sack & fumble numbers don't matter...
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  • Both are good quarterbacks and young.. both fanbases should be happy they have an excellent future at that position... I read something twitter today about how no QB drafted by the Chiefs has won an NFL game since 1987. WOW
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  • Ask me this question after next years season. To fully compare the two i think kaep needs more games under his belt. Also we will see which one has the "sophmore slump".
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  • I think both QB's are too smart and good to suffer a Sophomore Slump
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  • I believe that the debate comes down to only one question... and only one answer.

    Whose name is on the ball?

    Just in case you really didn't know, click here.

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    your World Champion Seattle Seahawks.. how sweet is that!!
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  • Excellent trolling of this thread, onanygivensunday. Made me laugh. :)
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:QBR is a joke. Every week there's some huge discrepancy on there; either a QB who should be much higher, or one that should be much lower. Until/unless they release the math on how they calculate it in its entirety, it's not to be trusted.

    It surprises me that so many 49ers fans claim Kaepernick's sack & fumble numbers don't matter...


    I actually agree which is why I didn't use it in my initial post.

    The Sack numbers have alot to do with his line...they are the best in football (by alot) at run-blocking, but pass blocking? Not so much.

    As for the fumbles...they absolutely do matter, but it's something that is gonna get fixed. It has mostly to do with Kaep never playing under center at Nevada. all but 2 of his fumbles have been fumbled snaps and one was on a run against the Bills. Only one of his fumbles have been the "got hit and lost the ball" variety since he became the starter.

    The cold and rain in Foxborough on top of that didn't help...and yes, I'm aware he may have the same issue in Seattle.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Excellent trolling of this thread, onanygivensunday. Made me laugh. :)


    LOL. Me too.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:QBR is a joke. Every week there's some huge discrepancy on there; either a QB who should be much higher, or one that should be much lower. Until/unless they release the math on how they calculate it in its entirety, it's not to be trusted.

    It surprises me that so many 49ers fans claim Kaepernick's sack & fumble numbers don't matter...


    I don't like QBR much either but it is impressive how highly they both rank. It does generally show if a QB has a bad game or a good game. It's not perfect but Aaron Rodgers is gonna have a higher QBR than Josh Freeman.
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  • I admit that I badly wanted the Seahawks to draft Kaepernick two years ago. When Carpenters name was called I was very disappointed but in hindsight, I now understand better the PC/JS rebuild process. I really, really appreciate the abilities of PC/JS to evaluate talent and the fact that they didn't mind taking a chance on a non-typical 5-11 QB with hugh upside. Kaepernick ticked a lot of boxes for me when I researched him two years ago and he is showing in his limited number of starts that he will indeed be a very, very good QB. I was very upset that he was drafted by a division rival, especially SF. I knew that Kaepernick was going to be a franchise QB and would produce well in the NFL and I still believe he's on a path to becoming a very good QB one day. Then, along came this years draft. RW, a 5-11 QB, really?

    Russell Wilson came into the season with the Seahawks as a fairly raw rookie, had to compete and split reps through training camp and the preseason, had to learn consistency with his receivers while playing actual games instead of in practice. The coaches wern't sure he could handle the entire offense, so they spoon fed him in the first few games until it became obvious that the kid could handle much closer to a full playbook. The end result for Wilson is that he has improved in every game and just keeps getting better and better as the season winds along. Wilson is still learning and will end up not only as a pro-bowl QB, but one of the top tier QB's in the league for years to come.

    If one compares Wilson and Kaepernick on all of their qualities as QB's, they are, at this time, pretty close, however this poll would be better evidence of which is better with a full season used to compare their stats and games. How about next year? They both should be the starters for their respective teams and the comparison would be much more meaningfull.

    QBR is supposed to be a measurement of QB efficiency, Wilson's efficiency, so far, has been just great and the good news is that he's improving leaps and bounds every single week. I am starting to think that Wilson's height at 5-11, along with his mobility, is actually an advantage over taller QB's, he can "get lost" behind the hugh linemen playing all around him. Wilson is just starting to show what he can do IMO. Poise? Intangilbles? No comparison between the two.

    At this point in time I'd much rather have Wilson leading the Seahawks as he has the smarts, work ethic, football IQ and most of all extreme confidence to be a strong leader. Kaepernick may not ever catch up to Wilson in those categories of QB makeup. San Francisco is lucky to have a good QB like Kaepernick, but the Seahawks are even luckier to have a fantastic young QB and team leader like DangeRuss on their team for the next 10-15 years. We all, as Seahawks fans should be happy because we do indeed have our franchise QBOTF. Kaepernick should be happy if he just continues to develop and maybe one day San Francisco will have the same. So, yes I like them both, but Russell Wilson is going to show the world and I'd take him over Kaepernick - straight up - any day.
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  • Barthawk wrote: I read something twitter today about how no QB drafted by the Chiefs has won an NFL game since 1987. WOW

    I believe that's correct.

    Todd Blackledge was the last one. He was drafted #7 overall in the famous QB class of the 1983 draft. His last starts for the Chiefs occurred in the 1987 season, wherein he finished 1-1.

    Source of Blackedge's career starts for KC... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... acTo00.htm

    And here's a source for the list of QBs drafted by KC... http://www.fantasyfootballchallenge.com ... backs.html
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  • Niner fans have a distinct handicap in using numbers to say whether Kaepernick is better than Wilson; all the numbers say that Alex Smith should be the starter in San Fran.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Kaepernick is taking twice as many sacks and is fumbling the football FIVE TIMES MORE than Wilson. Those are the two really telling ones. Even if you completely remove his 4 fumbles @ Foxboro, he's fumbling quite a bit more per game than Wilson, and I'm including every game for Wilson in that average.

    If Kaepernick keeps fumbling and taking sacks (the latter one points to better athleticism/pocket presence by Wilson, IMO) the way he has been, he's never going to be a great QB.


    Where exactly are you getting your stats from anyway? Wilson has been sacked 11 times in his last 5 games and Kaepernick has been sacked 10 times. This is the second thread I've seen on this board in the last day where Wilson has make believe numbers out of thin air to make him look better than he is and to make Kaepernick look worse.

    This is silly that I actually have to fact check the stats you guys throw out because some of you are so dishonest with numbers and facts.
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  • Disp wrote:Where exactly are you getting your stats from anyway? Wilson has been sacked 11 times in his last 5 games and Kaepernick has been sacked 10 times. This is the second thread I've seen on this board in the last day where Wilson has make believe numbers out of thin air to make him look better than he is and to make Kaepernick look worse.

    This is silly that I actually have to fact check the stats you guys throw out because some of you are so dishonest with numbers and facts.


    NFL.com. Where are you getting yours from?

    http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/profile
    http://www.nfl.com/player/colinkaeperni ... 86/profile

    Wilson has 26 in 14 games, which is 1.85 sacks per game. Kaepernick has 14 in 5 games, which is 2.80 sacks per game. That's a pretty big sack-per-game differential, don't you think? 33% more sacks for Kaepernick, to be precise.

    Looks like you're the one with the make-believe numbers on this board; or you're using some selective metric somewhere, perhaps.
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  • Here's a hint: Add up the sacks from Kaepernick's last 5 games.

    I'll help:
    Kaepernick
    NE = 2
    Mia= 4
    STL=3
    NO=0
    CHI=1
    Total=10


    Wilson:
    Buffalo=2
    Ari=1
    Chi=2
    Mia=2
    NY=4
    Total=11
    Last edited by Disp on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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  • Actually, scratch that, 2 of his sacks were in a game where he wasn't the starter; so the math is 14 in 6 games, technically, though he didn't play a full game. We'll give him the benefit of lowering his sack rate and assuming 6 full games, though. 2.33 sacks per game, differential of 21%.
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  • Disp wrote:Here's a hint: Add up the sacks from Kaepernick's last 5 games.


    Here's a hint: When you're playing an NFL game, sacks still count even if you weren't the named starter for that game.

    Another hint: Don't try to use perceived technicalities to avoid the other issue in this discussion regarding Kaepernick, which is fumbles.
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  • Ok let's compare their last 6 games:

    Wilson = 12
    Kaepernick = 13

    You're right. Looking at the stats, Kaepernick is indeed taking double the sacks Wilson is.

    RolandDeschain wrote:Another hint: Don't try to use perceived technicalities to avoid the other issue in this discussion regarding Kaepernick, which is fumbles.


    Perceived technicalities? Your entire argument was founded on you doing first grade addition wrong to suit your point.
    Last edited by Disp on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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  • Wilson's taking more sacks as of late, which I want to see stop. No doubt about that. You're using it to pump up Kaepernick's stats, though. Whatever, ignore the sack thing if you want, you can cherry-pick sets of games all you want but for QBs that actually earned their starting spots, you use their year-to-date stats for an overall accurate representation. The good and the bad.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Wilson's taking more sacks as of late, which I want to see stop. No doubt about that. You're using it to pump up Kaepernick's stats, though. Whatever, ignore the sack thing if you want, you can cherry-pick sets of games all you want but for QBs that actually earned their starting spots, you use their year-to-date stats for an overall accurate representation. The good and the bad.


    I'm using your criteria that you guys cherry picked; Wilson's last 6 games. If you want to use Wilson's season-long sack rate then why won't you use his season long completion % or yards per attempt? Or are those irrelevant to you because they don't look as good?
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:It surprises me that so many 49ers fans claim Kaepernick's sack & fumble numbers don't matter...


    Well, unfortunately, your stats are incorrect. You are claiming 1.8 fumbles per game based upon dividing his entire season's fumbles by his 5 games started. Kaepernick had 9 fumbles throughout the entire season, but 3 of those were in games he was not the starter.

    If we are throwing out the NE game with 4 bad QB-Center exchanges, as you said, Kaep would have 2 fumbles in 4 starts, or 5 in 13 games.

    Kaeprenick has fewer INT's per game during those first 5 starts than Wilson (over Wilson's first five or the entire season, either way).

    So, essentially, Kaepernick has fumbled more per game (but fewer of those fumbles have been lost) and Wilson has thrown more picks.
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  • Let's just add up the quarters each one played, then; since Wilson was pulled halfway through one game, and 3/4ths of the way through another, and Kaepernick had two partial games as well.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Let's just add up the quarters each one played, then; since Wilson was pulled halfway through one game, and 3/4ths of the way through another, and Kaepernick had two partial games as well.


    It's still a bit misleading, as Kaepernick was used for wildcat/option plays earlier in the season. So, you can look at the NYG game, and say "Wow, Kaepernick was sacked twice", but the reality is that he was only called in for a couple of running plays that weren't successful.
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  • These are all averages, not totals.

    Russell Averages (full season):

    16 pass completions
    25 pass attempts
    62.4% completion rate
    193 yards
    7.86 per pass
    1.5 passing TDs
    0.64 interceptions
    1.9 sacks
    11.5 sack yards
    96.6 rating
    5.6 rush attempts
    29 rush yards
    5.23 yards average
    0 rush TDs
    0.36 fumbles
    0.2 lost fumbles


    Russell Averages (last 5 games):

    15 pass completions
    24 pass attempts
    63.6% completion rate
    212 yards
    9.28 per pass
    1.6 passing TDs
    0.2 interceptions
    2.2 sacks
    0 sack yards
    110.8 rating
    6.6 rush attempts
    49 rush yards
    6.92 yards average
    1 rush TDs
    0.4 fumbles
    0.2 lost fumbles

    Kaep Averages (5 games started):

    17 pass completions
    26 pass attempts
    66.7% completion rate
    217 yards
    8.58 per pass
    1.4 passing TDs
    0.4 interceptions
    1.8 sacks
    11.2 sack yards
    103.1 rating
    6.4 rush attempts
    40 rush yards
    5.82 yards average
    0 rush TDs
    2 fumbles
    0.3 lost fumbles
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  • manders2600 wrote:It's still a bit misleading, as Kaepernick was used for wildcat/option plays earlier in the season. So, you can look at the NYG game, and say "Wow, Kaepernick was sacked twice", but the reality is that he was only called in for a couple of running plays that weren't successful.

    If he had 2 sacks on 2 plays and wasn't the only QB on the field, I'd be willing to discount them. Despite what Disp thinks about me, I'm being reasonable about it. Call sack average on the year a wash, then. We'll focus on the fumbles, which are more important, anyways.
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  • this is soo easy, Wilson plays for the Hawks, Kapp plays for?????

    no brainer
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  • sc85sis wrote:These are all averages, not totals.

    Russell Averages (full season):

    16 pass completions
    25 pass attempts
    62.4% completion rate
    193 yards
    7.86 per pass
    1.5 passing TDs
    0.64 interceptions
    1.9 sacks
    11.5 sack yards
    96.6 rating
    5.6 rush attempts
    29 rush yards
    5.23 yards average
    0 rush TDs
    0.36 fumbles
    0.2 lost fumbles


    Russell Averages (last 5 games):

    15 pass completions
    24 pass attempts
    63.6% completion rate
    212 yards
    9.28 per pass
    1.6 passing TDs
    0.2 interceptions
    2.2 sacks
    0 sack yards
    110.8 rating
    6.6 rush attempts
    49 rush yards
    6.92 yards average
    1 rush TDs
    0.4 fumbles
    0.2 lost fumbles

    Kaep Averages (5 games started):

    17 pass completions
    26 pass attempts
    66.7% completion rate
    217 yards
    8.58 per pass
    1.4 passing TDs
    0.4 interceptions
    1.8 sacks
    11.2 sack yards
    103.1 rating
    6.4 rush attempts
    40 rush yards
    5.82 yards average
    0 rush TDs
    2 fumbles
    0.3 lost fumbles



    aw nevermind
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    manders2600 wrote:It's still a bit misleading, as Kaepernick was used for wildcat/option plays earlier in the season. So, you can look at the NYG game, and say "Wow, Kaepernick was sacked twice", but the reality is that he was only called in for a couple of running plays that weren't successful.

    If he had 2 sacks on 2 plays and wasn't the only QB on the field, I'd be willing to discount them. Despite what Disp thinks about me, I'm being reasonable about it. Call sack average on the year a wash, then. We'll focus on the fumbles, which are more important, anyways.


    And, in that case, whether you look at season totals or just the first five starts of each QB, Kaepernick has fumbled more per game (but lost fewer of those fumbles) and Wilson throws more picks.

    Now, the sample size on this is incredibly small, so I'm not really sure you can tell anything definitively, but Wilson turns the ball over (fumbles lost and picks thrown) more than Kaepernick.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:Niner fans have a distinct handicap in using numbers to say whether Kaepernick is better than Wilson; all the numbers say that Alex Smith should be the starter in San Fran.


    Uh...no they don't.

    Kaeps average yard per COMPLETION is FAR, FAR higher than Alex and his overall numbers are comparable...which is really saying something considering Kaep has only started 5 games. Alex has also NEVER thrown 4 TDs in a game. Thier rushing statistics aren't even close.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:If he had 2 sacks on 2 plays and wasn't the only QB on the field, I'd be willing to discount them. Despite what Disp thinks about me, I'm being reasonable about it. Call sack average on the year a wash, then. We'll focus on the fumbles, which are more important, anyways.


    I agree about the fumbles; they're a problem that needs to be fixed, and Wilson definitely fumbles less. Kaepernick is doing what every single QB in history, including Wilson does in their first few games, and that's either fumbling or throwing picks. You're straight up bending statistics to fit your agenda and being dishonest about it though. My point from the beginning is they're both great qb's with bright futures, and Wilson is not on a whole different tier that Kaepernick might never get to like you've been saying.
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  • OK...I think we're getting everything twisted here about what should "count" and what should not.

    To me, it's only fair to count starts. Kaep was primarily in a run package for most of the season so it wasn't a conventional offense. There were even times that both Smith and Kaep were on the field. There were times he was sacked that were simply trick plays that didn't work and he had to eat the ball.

    He came in and played for the very first time on a real non-mop-up situation in the first Rams game. He did tho come into that game having not prepped as the starter and the team was already 10 points behind halfway through the second quarter.

    Given all that, I think it's only really fair to look at Kaeps last 5 games. All starts. We can debate all day which 5 of Wilsons starts to compare to so that's why I used both his first 5 and last 5 in my initial comparison. I think that's fair.

    As far as the sacks and INT numbers go, Kaep does take some sacks, but he actually has excaped quite a few...sacks that Alex could not escape. One of the reasons tho that he does take some sacks is that he is looking to hit the home run on every play. He takes ALOT more deep drops than Alex did and counts on his protection to hold up...and it doesn't always do so. As far as the fumbles, He has only fumbled in the last 5 games ONCE as a result of getting hit. One was the horrible pitch play that never should have been called and the rest are fumbled snaps. He needs to clean that up, no question, but that is a result of never taking a snap from center in 4 years of college football and a cold, wet ball in Foxborough. He will improve.

    COmparing Wilsons first 5 games to his last 5 show HUGE improvement. He looks like he is on his way to being a very good QB. I simply don't understand why SOME of you don't see that Kaep will imrove as well.
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