Did not see that coming. I thought we woud be forcing a lot more this season. We have yet to score a single point on defense, either (people are saying the Cowboys game, but that was special teams points).

I have to think the lack of pass rush (same old story) has a lot to do with it.

To put it into persepctive, in our defensive glory years we once had 60+ turnovers in a season -- and that was before the league was a "passing league".

I'm hoping we start to get them in bunches as we head towards the playoffs.

FlyingGreg wrote:Did not see that coming. I thought we woud be forcing a lot more this season. We have yet to score a single point on defense, either (people are saying the Cowboys game, but that was special teams points).

False. The blocked punt in the Cowboys game WAS a defensive TD. The ball never crossed the line of scrimmage.

Even though it would be nice to force more turnovers, I think this bodes well for our future. We are depending more on good solid D (not as much lately but still good) and less on turnovers, which can be fluky and unrepeatable

HawksFTW wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:Did not see that coming. I thought we woud be forcing a lot more this season. We have yet to score a single point on defense, either (people are saying the Cowboys game, but that was special teams points).

False. The blocked punt in the Cowboys game WAS a defensive TD. The ball never crossed the line of scrimmage.

Truth - we will agree to disagree - the play occurred on a punt, which is a special teams evolution. The core defense did not score the points.

The point stands. No fumble return or interception return for a score this season. None of our 11 defensive starters have scored. No way to sugar coat or explain it away. And even if I accepted the Cowboys angle, that was 11 games ago so it's obviously an issue.

FlyingGreg wrote:

HawksFTW wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:Did not see that coming. I thought we woud be forcing a lot more this season. We have yet to score a single point on defense, either (people are saying the Cowboys game, but that was special teams points).

False. The blocked punt in the Cowboys game WAS a defensive TD. The ball never crossed the line of scrimmage.

Truth - we will agree to disagree - the play occurred on a punt, which is a special teams evolution. The core defense did not score the points.

It doesn't become a punt/special teams play until the ball has passed the line of scrimmage. The rest of your point stands.

It was a Special Teams play.

HawksFTW wrote:It doesn't become a punt/special teams play until the ball has passed the line of scrimmage. The rest of your point stands.

Sigh...this thread is not about a silly debate that makes no sense. And our regular defensive unit is not our punt block unit, regardless. I'm not in the mood to go back and forth, away from the point, debating it. Like I said (AGAIN) - no regular defensive starter has scored, and Dallas was 11 games ago. And it's still a special teams play.

This thread is about not forcing turnovers. I'm not looking for weak excuses and sugar coating to explain it.

Back to the point...

Jazzhawk wrote:It was a Special Teams play.

Don't make me break out the rule book. It isn't a special teams play until the ball is KICKED beyond the line of scrimmage. It doesn't matter what formation they line up in, or who is on the field, it matters what happens to the ball. If they line up in punt formation but throw the ball, it is still considered an offensive play. There for any action that happens before the ball crossed the line of scrimmage upon being KICKED is still in the realm of offense/defense. This isn't up for interpretation based upon what players were on the field, it is part of the rules, as stated in the rule book.

FlyingGreg wrote:
Back to the point...

Notice I said the rest of your point stands?

HawksFTW wrote:

FlyingGreg wrote:
Back to the point...

Notice I said the rest of your point stands?

Notice you keep derailing the thread by not offering opinions on why we are not forcing turnovers?

What ya got?

There were 22 special team players on the field, and 2 special teams plays called, and a bunch of special teams coaches brains rolling. It was a special teams play dude lol

HawksFTW wrote:

Jazzhawk wrote:It was a Special Teams play.

Don't make me break out the rule book. It isn't a special teams play until the ball is KICKED beyond the line of scrimmage. It doesn't matter what formation they line up in, or who is on the field, it matters what happens to the ball. If they line up in punt formation but throw the ball, it is still considered an offensive play. There for any action that happens before the ball crossed the line of scrimmage upon being KICKED is still in the realm of offense/defense. This isn't up for interpretation based upon what players were on the field, it is part of the rules, as stated in the rule book.

Unfortunately your theory doesn't hold water. At least according to the STATS PAGE on SEAHAWKS.COM
Which lists our TD's as Rushing= 6, Passing = 20, Returns= 2, Defensive = 0.

http://www.seahawks.com/team/statistics.html

TOUCHDOWNS (RUSHING-PASSING-RETURNS-DEFENSIVE)

6-20-2-0

7-12-0-2

ensett wrote:There were 22 special team players on the field, and 2 special teams plays called, and a bunch of special teams coaches brains rolling. It was a special teams play dude lol

Some people love the rules and stats and don't like to use common sense. I guess next we'll hear how high our DVOA is...

FlyingGreg wrote:

ensett wrote:There were 22 special team players on the field, and 2 special teams plays called, and a bunch of special teams coaches brains rolling. It was a special teams play dude lol

Some people love the rules and stats and don't like to use common sense. I guess next we'll hear how high our DVOA is...

Funny. So if the backup QB throws a TD on a fake FG, is that considered a special teams play as well? Your "common sense" means little in this regard, because if you look at it that way, there is nothing more than offense or defense. Either you have the ball (offense) or you are trying to stop the guys with the ball (defense). The stipulations about special teams (which you won't even find that term in the rule book, outside of one mention) are simply a way to compartmentalize that aspect the game (kicking, fielding, etc).

So you can LOL and all you like, my point stands. It is still a defensive play until the moment that ball is technically out of the other team's possession (eg once it passes the line of scrimmage).


As for the rest of your post, we have been close to a number of INTs and fumbles. ET has missed 5-6 this year alone. Wright missed one, Wagner had one taken away as well. Turnovers are one of the most random things in football, so it doesn't bother too much. I am more concerned with 3rd down stops, which is a much better indicator of success.

What's the split on turnovers forced at home and away? I'm curious.

Hasselbeck wrote:What's the split on turnovers forced at home and away? I'm curious.

Thanks for bringing something meaningful to the discussion. I think it's actually pretty close. It just gets magnified when we play on the road because the games are close and we need that "dynamic event" sometimes to help.

Looking ahead to the playoffs, those are exactly the kind of plays you need to win on the road. The more the merrier.

if a QB was the holder and threw a TD, itd be a special teams TD, yeah. Same way Leon returning a kick for a TD isnt an offensive TD

ensett wrote:if a QB was the holder and threw a TD, itd be a special teams TD, yeah. Same way Leon returning a kick for a TD isnt an offensive TD

Well, isn't this interesting. From page four of the NFL rulebook:

Whenever a team is in possession of the ball, it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense.

These are the only two designations specifically laid out in the NFL rulebook. So technically, a kick return is an offensive TD.

HawksFTW wrote:

ensett wrote:if a QB was the holder and threw a TD, itd be a special teams TD, yeah. Same way Leon returning a kick for a TD isnt an offensive TD

Well, isn't this interesting. From page four of the NFL rulebook:

Whenever a team is in possession of the ball, it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense.

These are the only two designations specifically laid out in the NFL rulebook. So technically, a kick return is an offensive TD.

Ah, sweetie, you need attention?

pehawk wrote:Ah, sweetie, you need attention?

After reading some of your posts in other forums these past few days, this is hilarious coming from you. Troll harder pe.

Um, I don't really care whether you call it ST or D -- or Defensive ST. It was a terrific play by Malcolm Smith and Jeron Johnson.

HawksFTW wrote:

ensett wrote:if a QB was the holder and threw a TD, itd be a special teams TD, yeah. Same way Leon returning a kick for a TD isnt an offensive TD

Well, isn't this interesting. From page four of the NFL rulebook:

Whenever a team is in possession of the ball, it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense.

These are the only two designations specifically laid out in the NFL rulebook. So technically, a kick return is an offensive TD.

Who cares.

Earl Thomas has dropped at least eight interceptions by his own count. That accounts for a lot of it.

MontanaHawk05 wrote:Earl Thomas has dropped at least eight interceptions by his own count. That accounts for a lot of it.

Yep, a few of them would have been amazing interceptions, but some were just routine grabs. Turnovers a fluky stat, and sustaining them with any consistency is very difficult for even the best teams. The good thing is, we have had some very timely turn overs this year, which to me is more important. The quality of the turnover (field position, score of the game, timing, etc) is a bigger deal that quantity. I think a big part of it, is the lack of consistent pressure; the more pressure, the more turnovers.

Omg people. Special teams players were on the field, a punt return is a special teams play, it smells like a duck so it's a special teams play. Stop it.

Interceptions
2012:
Sherman 4
Browner 3
ET 2
Wagner 1

2011:
Browner 6
Sherman 4
Chancellor 4
Hawthorne 3
ET 2
Red Bryant 2
Trufant 1

Chancellor has DISAPPEARED this season. Browner has fallen off. Wagner is not causing the turnovers Hawthorne did. Bryant is playing injured. That's 8 TO's right there.

Forced Fumbles
2012
Sherman 3
Browner 3
Robinson 2
Irvin, Clemons, Trufant, Wright and ET 1 each

2011
Chancellor 3
Clemons 3
Smith 2
Robinson 2
bunches at 1

Again, Chancellor has DISAPPEARED. Clemons has dropped off a couple. Sherman and Browner are making up for it.

Kam Chancellor went from causing 7 TO's last year to ZERO this year.

Back on topic, I too am really surprised and dissapointed that we havnt generated more turnovers. Especially when that seemed to be a real strength even this preseason. It seems like when they come though, they come in bunches. Who knows, maybe we can get hot in that regard the last 4 weeks and into the playoffs.

I think a big part of it, besides the comlete disappearance of Kam Chancellor, is the QB's we've faced. Rodgers, Brady, etc. Those guys don't give up turnovers.