Help me win an argument

The Essential Online Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute. RATING: PG-13
Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:09 am
  • There is a lot of random football conversation in my office. We have a large population of Cowboys and Redskins fans, so they tend to cancel each other out. Yet, I found myself having to defend Russell Wilson when one guy decided to make the statement in a discussion about QB's that "Russell Wilson is totally overrated, not a great QB at all". (I should note I live in SC, not WA)

    These were his points:

    He is a "game-manager"
    He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
    He has a low yards-per-game average
    He can't win on the road
    "Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
    "He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"

    I tried to tell this guy that his passer rating and completion percentage are the best of any rookie besides RG3. I tried to tell him that his attempts are low because Seattle is run-first. I tried to tell him that he is 4th in rushing yards among QB's, and that he escapes pressure with the best of them.

    I think he is representative of many outside observers of Wilson. The bottom line is he is stuck on this stupid "game-manager" label, which may be loosely based on fact but still inaccurate.

    I don't know what it will take to please this guy or others like him. Playoff-win? I asked him if he would consider Wilson a good QB if Seattle got a playoff win. His response "it will never happen, Seattle can't win on the road"

    In the same breath, this guy (Dallas fan) is drinking the Kaepernick kool aide and thinks he is the re-incarnation of Joe Montana after 2 games.

    This might just be anti-Seahawks bias as well. He, and almost everyone else in my office has taken to calling the Seahawks cheaters, with the combination of the Tate catch and the Sherman and Browner PED issue as evidence - possibly the only two Seahawks news stories they read all season.

    I am focusing on this one guy, but I have seen this general stance by most people around here, and since I am far from Seattle I see the "national perspective" all the time.
    User avatar
    CaptainSkybeard
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 904
    Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:08 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:40 am
  • He's a Cowgirls fan. That says it all.

    Still butt hurt the "game manager" smoked his team.
    @SeahawkGreg

    Image

    "I will be thrilled with 10 wins.... If we win 14 games, I will tattoo my nuts green and blue!" --13thMan
    User avatar
    FlyingGreg
    * Master Chief *
    * Master Chief *
     
    Posts: 7490
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:19 am
    Location: CVN-68


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:06 am
  • With respect to "dink and dunk", link him to this (essentially a Wilson TD highlight video).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy6qUZWZzJc

    Even though (totally overrated) Andrew Luck has 169 more attempts than Wilson, he has four fewer TD passes.
    User avatar
    Jac
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 678
    Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:50 am


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:40 am
  • Its all dink and dunk? I haven't seen that at all this season, ask Tom Brady whats up with that dink and dunk.

    I don't know whats in the water where you live though, I know a few people outside of the PNW, and they all think Russell is the truth.
    Image
    3elieve
    User avatar
    Throwdown
    * NET Baller *
     
    Posts: 19136
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:02 am
    Location: Graham, WA


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 am
  • Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.
    Welcome to Mr. Wilson's Magic Show
    Strong safety Kam Chancellor, a 6-foot-3, 232-pound rhinoceros in cleats.....REED ALBERGOTTI
    Put them together, and this long-limbed, fleet-a-foot foursome forms a formidable force. ....Clare Farnsworth referencing the "Legion of Boom"
    oregonhawkfan
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 2044
    Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:08 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:07 am
  • I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

    When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

    Sigh.
    User avatar
    CaptainSkybeard
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 904
    Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:08 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:20 am
  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

    When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

    Sigh.


    AKA he doesnt know what the flip he is talkin about.
    Wolf grey all day every day.
    User avatar
    VHawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2524
    Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:44 am
    Location: Naples, FL


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:28 am
  • Why would you get in such a conversation anyway? You never can win those types of things.

    And when you cry to the rafters how good your player really is you're merely making them believe you aren't so sure yourself.

    I do coffee with a group and they are the same way. I learned years ago to let them argue with themselves. After all what 'Boys fan can do much crowing about Tony Romo now a days?

    :roll:
    Image
    On to week two. Week one was not a fluke!
    User avatar
    The Radish
    * NET Radish *
     
    Posts: 18655
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:18 pm
    Location: Spokane, Wa.


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:57 am
  • "Great" is a subjective concept anyways, and it may well be premature after 11 games. Why do you care if they think he is great or not?

    We have a better chance of making the playoffs than either WAS or DAL, that is what I would be hanging my hat on if I was you.
    "Check out my 2012 NFL Draft Grades. I just gave the worst grade ever to Seattle." - WalterFootball.com
    User avatar
    AgentDib
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2131
    Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:08 pm
    Location: Seattle


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:33 am
  • It seriously sounds like that guy knows more about fantasy football than football, and doesnt actually watch RW play. Yards are a number, not a skill. A quarterback doesnt win on the road, a team does, RW has individually won on the road with beastly performances. And as far as the long ball, that's what proves what I said about him not watching. Ask the Packers and Pats how they feel about that.
    ----
    ensett
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1522
    Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:26 am


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:00 am
  • IIRC, at least 7 of his TD passes are over 20 yards.
    User avatar
    PlinytheCenter
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2823
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:47 pm
    Location: In Bruges


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:14 am
  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:He is a "game-manager"
    He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
    He has a low yards-per-game average
    He can't win on the road
    "Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
    "He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"


    #4 was on Wilson for the first four road games, yeah. But he's improved dramatically in the last two, and anyone making judgments purely on a rookie's first four road games is an idiot anyway.

    #6 tells me he isn't actually watching the games.

    The rest are all byproducts of Seattle not asking him to throw as much.

    Lots of ESPN zombie-watchers are stuck believing that it's not an NFL offense unless it's an air-raid offense, so that's part of it. But judging from his "fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over" comment, it's clear that he knows Seattle's offensive intentions perfectly well and is just looking for reasons to diss the Seahawks. Ask him how his Cowboys are doing.
    GO HAWKS!!!

    Visit my Seahawks blog at 17power.blogspot.com!

    Follow me on Twitter at @17power
    User avatar
    MontanaHawk05
    * 17Power Blogger *
     
    Posts: 11260
    Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:05 pm
  • oregonhawkfan wrote:Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.

    This, and when he says "He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk" I have to wonder if he saw that laser to Syd that won the Pats game? Not that he'd give credit or anything. Eff ALL Cowpatties homers.
    From the white sands
    To the canyon lands
    To the redwood stands
    To the barren lands

    Image
    User avatar
    hawksfansinceday1
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 11230
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:38 am
    Location: Vancouver, WA


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:24 pm
  • The last one I disagree with. The first statement of him being a game manager, well that's really because coaching won't let him be more.

    The rest? Well.. you can't really argue them.
    February 2, 2014... the day the dream was finally realized
    User avatar
    Hasselbeck
    * NET Sage *
     
    Posts: 4864
    Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 4:55 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:28 pm
  • Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB? Montana was a game manager that could win you games if the running game wasn't working much as Wilson is beginning to show progress on. RAC is the name of that game, Wilson has a cannon that can break close zone coverage if the defense tries to crowd the mid field area as well.
    Image

    To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!!
    Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. :les:
    Member of the 38 club.
    User avatar
    chris98251
    .NET Hijacker
     
    Posts: 10628
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:52 pm
    Location: Renton Wa.


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:31 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB?


    He might want to wait until Monday for that.. since Seattle and Dallas could both be 6-6 tomorrow night
    February 2, 2014... the day the dream was finally realized
    User avatar
    Hasselbeck
    * NET Sage *
     
    Posts: 4864
    Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 4:55 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:42 pm
  • Hasselbeck wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB?


    He might want to wait until Monday for that.. since Seattle and Dallas could both be 6-6 tomorrow night



    Well we all know that the Cowboys do best when they have a Glory Hole to play for :)
    Image

    To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!!
    Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. :les:
    Member of the 38 club.
    User avatar
    chris98251
    .NET Hijacker
     
    Posts: 10628
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:52 pm
    Location: Renton Wa.


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:03 pm
  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:There is a lot of random football conversation in my office. We have a large population of Cowboys and Redskins fans, so they tend to cancel each other out. Yet, I found myself having to defend Russell Wilson when one guy decided to make the statement in a discussion about QB's that "Russell Wilson is totally overrated, not a great QB at all". (I should note I live in SC, not WA)

    These were his points:

    He is a "game-manager"
    He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
    He has a low yards-per-game average
    He can't win on the road
    "Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
    "He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"


    I tried to tell this guy that his passer rating and completion percentage are the best of any rookie besides RG3. I tried to tell him that his attempts are low because Seattle is run-first. I tried to tell him that he is 4th in rushing yards among QB's, and that he escapes pressure with the best of them.

    I think he is representative of many outside observers of Wilson. The bottom line is he is stuck on this stupid "game-manager" label, which may be loosely based on fact but still inaccurate.

    I don't know what it will take to please this guy or others like him. Playoff-win? I asked him if he would consider Wilson a good QB if Seattle got a playoff win. His response "it will never happen, Seattle can't win on the road"

    In the same breath, this guy (Dallas fan) is drinking the Kaepernick kool aide and thinks he is the re-incarnation of Joe Montana after 2 games.

    This might just be anti-Seahawks bias as well. He, and almost everyone else in my office has taken to calling the Seahawks cheaters, with the combination of the Tate catch and the Sherman and Browner PED issue as evidence - possibly the only two Seahawks news stories they read all season.

    I am focusing on this one guy, but I have seen this general stance by most people around here, and since I am far from Seattle I see the "national perspective" all the time.

    First off say, 27-7 bitch, your team got spanked by Russel Wilson.

    Tell him the only way Tony Romo is going to a Super Bowl is if he buys a ticket.

    Laugh at him and say your GM is Jerry "freakin' Jones!!!!!!

    In all seriousness Cowboys fans are one of the dumbest fanbases in all of sports
    SEATTLE SEAHAWKS SUPERBOWL XLVIII CHAMPIONS!

    May the spirit of our friend The Radish live on forever!
    User avatar
    Sports Hernia
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 11483
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:36 pm
    Location: Lombardi Land


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm
  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

    When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

    Sigh.

    Yeah, that can be less exciting then to watch Tony "the human turnover machine" Romo cough up the ball to the opposing team, I'll give him that!
    SEATTLE SEAHAWKS SUPERBOWL XLVIII CHAMPIONS!

    May the spirit of our friend The Radish live on forever!
    User avatar
    Sports Hernia
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 11483
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:36 pm
    Location: Lombardi Land


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:11 pm
  • CaptainSkybeard wrote:I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

    When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

    Sigh.



    This is really weird because 1) Wilson has more throws than Lynch has carries and 2) Lynch is actually good and fun to watch
    ----
    ensett
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1522
    Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:26 am


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:24 pm
  • RG3 and Romo? Where do I start. Firstly, none of those guys have Lynch and Turbin as their RB's. So just with the calibre of our backs that already tells that we are not going to rely on the passing game to be our one all be all of our offense. So there is a reason why Wilson has the pass attempts count he has. The Skins and Boys put all their chips on their QB's shoulders. If we let Wilson chuck it on every play of course his numbers will be up there too. Secondly, our approach is a little different. We try to stay efficient on O, score some points and let our D protect our leads. We are not in the business of going tit for tat on the scoreboard. We try to be balanced across the board. So in summary, Wilson does what is expected of him and he does it well and on top of that PC has a tightrope on his development. If you call him overrated this early in his career then you're totally misinformed. If anything he's won approval by a great majority on this board and that initself is a tough litmus test.
    Image
    User avatar
    rastahawk
    * Just Chillin' *
     
    Posts: 1007
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:51 am
    Location: Los Angeles


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:36 pm
  • Stop arguing with stupid people. :)

    His last comment belies a level of ignorance that tells me you're wasting your time even trying.
    “We need to be challenged, ... and we need to be under the gun to respond.” --Pete Carroll
    User avatar
    nanomoz
    *GOLD SUPPORTER*
    *GOLD SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 4611
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:20 pm
    Location: UT


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:01 pm
  • Wish I understood this when I was younger, but it's 100% true: You simply cannot argue with stupid.
    Image
    User avatar
    SNDavidson
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1437
    Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:22 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:08 pm
  • oregonhawkfan wrote:Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.


    Totally this. Just walk away whenever he mentions anything football related.
    President of the Perfect Parents Society - est. 2013
    User avatar
    JesterHawk
    * Smackmeister *
     
    Posts: 7033
    Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:56 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm
  • Wilson (R):
    Cmp 63.6%
    Avg 7.33
    TDs 17
    Int 8
    Long 51
    QBR 61.8
    Rat 93.9

    Romo (8):
    Cmp 66.2%
    Avg 7.36
    TDs 16
    Int 15
    Long 85
    QBR 59.7
    Rat 85.9

    It's true that Russell has fewer yards total and per game, but he's also a rookie who plays in an offense predicated on using the run and having offensive balance. His average per completion is almost identical to Romo's. He also has 1 more TD and far fewer picks.

    As to the argument that Russell doesn't throw deep, here's an article from mid-October that belies that: http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... t&id=78502. His long of 51 yards was, I believe, actually 51 yards in the air, not YAC.
    Help bring peace to the South LA / Puget Sound communities. Are you in?
    http://www.abetterla.org | http://www.abetterseattle.com
    User avatar
    sc85sis
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
    *SILVER SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 4792
    Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:40 am
    Location: Southern CA


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:34 pm
  • He knows Romo has serious issues and Dallas is basically out of the playoffs. Annoyingly enough, all I hear now is how the 49ers are legit and Kaepernick completes the 49ers blah blah blah.

    Honestly I think there must be a particular radio show that likes to bash the Seahawks a lot because a lot of the stuff this guy and others spout off seems like regurgitated baseless drivel.

    I try not to argue with idiots but I get picked on because I am the only Seahawks guy around. I honestly think the GB thing spread so much negative stuff around that people just associate the Seahawks with something to dislike. They really hate Golden Tate and for some reason Pete because of that, I guess because he didn't apologize for winning??

    Aside from talking football this guy is cool. But I can't just sit in the room an let completely inaccurate stuff be said about Wilson. By the way I was one of those Flynn guys that thought Wilson should sit a year but after the NE game I was sold.
    User avatar
    CaptainSkybeard
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 904
    Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:08 pm


Re: Help me win an argument
Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:34 pm
  • Wilson ranks fifth in air yards per attempt. Does your coworker know what dink and dunk means?

    All the other stuff is true enough, it's just not all that important. We're supposed to discredit all of Wilson's other stats because the coaches don't get him the ball as often as other QBs? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
    User avatar
    aku
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 116
    Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:50 am


Re: Help me win an argument
Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:05 am
  • To put this entire thing into perspective.

    When is the last time you won an argument with a sports fan?

    :141847_bnono:
    Image
    On to week two. Week one was not a fluke!
    User avatar
    The Radish
    * NET Radish *
     
    Posts: 18655
    Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:18 pm
    Location: Spokane, Wa.


Re: Help me win an argument
Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:29 pm



It is currently Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:29 pm

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE OFFICIAL NET NATION FAN FORUM ]




Information
  • Who is online