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 Post subject: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:09 am 
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There is a lot of random football conversation in my office. We have a large population of Cowboys and Redskins fans, so they tend to cancel each other out. Yet, I found myself having to defend Russell Wilson when one guy decided to make the statement in a discussion about QB's that "Russell Wilson is totally overrated, not a great QB at all". (I should note I live in SC, not WA)

These were his points:

He is a "game-manager"
He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
He has a low yards-per-game average
He can't win on the road
"Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
"He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"

I tried to tell this guy that his passer rating and completion percentage are the best of any rookie besides RG3. I tried to tell him that his attempts are low because Seattle is run-first. I tried to tell him that he is 4th in rushing yards among QB's, and that he escapes pressure with the best of them.

I think he is representative of many outside observers of Wilson. The bottom line is he is stuck on this stupid "game-manager" label, which may be loosely based on fact but still inaccurate.

I don't know what it will take to please this guy or others like him. Playoff-win? I asked him if he would consider Wilson a good QB if Seattle got a playoff win. His response "it will never happen, Seattle can't win on the road"

In the same breath, this guy (Dallas fan) is drinking the Kaepernick kool aide and thinks he is the re-incarnation of Joe Montana after 2 games.

This might just be anti-Seahawks bias as well. He, and almost everyone else in my office has taken to calling the Seahawks cheaters, with the combination of the Tate catch and the Sherman and Browner PED issue as evidence - possibly the only two Seahawks news stories they read all season.

I am focusing on this one guy, but I have seen this general stance by most people around here, and since I am far from Seattle I see the "national perspective" all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:40 am 
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He's a Cowgirls fan. That says it all.

Still butt hurt the "game manager" smoked his team.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:06 am 
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With respect to "dink and dunk", link him to this (essentially a Wilson TD highlight video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy6qUZWZzJc

Even though (totally overrated) Andrew Luck has 169 more attempts than Wilson, he has four fewer TD passes.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:15 am 
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One more nice video for you breaking down Wilson vs. Luck numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9re8Ehadvr4


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:40 am 
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Its all dink and dunk? I haven't seen that at all this season, ask Tom Brady whats up with that dink and dunk.

I don't know whats in the water where you live though, I know a few people outside of the PNW, and they all think Russell is the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 am 
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Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:07 am 
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I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

Sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:20 am 
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CaptainSkybeard wrote:
I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

Sigh.


AKA he doesnt know what the flip he is talkin about.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:28 am 
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Why would you get in such a conversation anyway? You never can win those types of things.

And when you cry to the rafters how good your player really is you're merely making them believe you aren't so sure yourself.

I do coffee with a group and they are the same way. I learned years ago to let them argue with themselves. After all what 'Boys fan can do much crowing about Tony Romo now a days?

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:57 am 
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"Great" is a subjective concept anyways, and it may well be premature after 11 games. Why do you care if they think he is great or not?

We have a better chance of making the playoffs than either WAS or DAL, that is what I would be hanging my hat on if I was you.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:33 am 
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It seriously sounds like that guy knows more about fantasy football than football, and doesnt actually watch RW play. Yards are a number, not a skill. A quarterback doesnt win on the road, a team does, RW has individually won on the road with beastly performances. And as far as the long ball, that's what proves what I said about him not watching. Ask the Packers and Pats how they feel about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:00 am 
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IIRC, at least 7 of his TD passes are over 20 yards.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:14 am 
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CaptainSkybeard wrote:
He is a "game-manager"
He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
He has a low yards-per-game average
He can't win on the road
"Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
"He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"


#4 was on Wilson for the first four road games, yeah. But he's improved dramatically in the last two, and anyone making judgments purely on a rookie's first four road games is an idiot anyway.

#6 tells me he isn't actually watching the games.

The rest are all byproducts of Seattle not asking him to throw as much.

Lots of ESPN zombie-watchers are stuck believing that it's not an NFL offense unless it's an air-raid offense, so that's part of it. But judging from his "fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over" comment, it's clear that he knows Seattle's offensive intentions perfectly well and is just looking for reasons to diss the Seahawks. Ask him how his Cowboys are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:05 pm 
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oregonhawkfan wrote:
Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.

This, and when he says "He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk" I have to wonder if he saw that laser to Syd that won the Pats game? Not that he'd give credit or anything. Eff ALL Cowpatties homers.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:24 pm 
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The last one I disagree with. The first statement of him being a game manager, well that's really because coaching won't let him be more.

The rest? Well.. you can't really argue them.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB? Montana was a game manager that could win you games if the running game wasn't working much as Wilson is beginning to show progress on. RAC is the name of that game, Wilson has a cannon that can break close zone coverage if the defense tries to crowd the mid field area as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:31 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB?


He might want to wait until Monday for that.. since Seattle and Dallas could both be 6-6 tomorrow night

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Hasselbeck wrote:
chris98251 wrote:
Ask him how many td's to interceptions Romo has this season and what the Cowboys record is with their deep ball non game manageing QB?


He might want to wait until Monday for that.. since Seattle and Dallas could both be 6-6 tomorrow night



Well we all know that the Cowboys do best when they have a Glory Hole to play for :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:03 pm 
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CaptainSkybeard wrote:
There is a lot of random football conversation in my office. We have a large population of Cowboys and Redskins fans, so they tend to cancel each other out. Yet, I found myself having to defend Russell Wilson when one guy decided to make the statement in a discussion about QB's that "Russell Wilson is totally overrated, not a great QB at all". (I should note I live in SC, not WA)

These were his points:

He is a "game-manager"
He has not thrown for over 300 yards once
He has a low yards-per-game average
He can't win on the road
"Other quarterbacks have more completions than he has attempts"
"He cant throw a long ball, its all dink-and-dunk"


I tried to tell this guy that his passer rating and completion percentage are the best of any rookie besides RG3. I tried to tell him that his attempts are low because Seattle is run-first. I tried to tell him that he is 4th in rushing yards among QB's, and that he escapes pressure with the best of them.

I think he is representative of many outside observers of Wilson. The bottom line is he is stuck on this stupid "game-manager" label, which may be loosely based on fact but still inaccurate.

I don't know what it will take to please this guy or others like him. Playoff-win? I asked him if he would consider Wilson a good QB if Seattle got a playoff win. His response "it will never happen, Seattle can't win on the road"

In the same breath, this guy (Dallas fan) is drinking the Kaepernick kool aide and thinks he is the re-incarnation of Joe Montana after 2 games.

This might just be anti-Seahawks bias as well. He, and almost everyone else in my office has taken to calling the Seahawks cheaters, with the combination of the Tate catch and the Sherman and Browner PED issue as evidence - possibly the only two Seahawks news stories they read all season.

I am focusing on this one guy, but I have seen this general stance by most people around here, and since I am far from Seattle I see the "national perspective" all the time.

First off say, 27-7 bitch, your team got spanked by Russel Wilson.

Tell him the only way Tony Romo is going to a Super Bowl is if he buys a ticket.

Laugh at him and say your GM is Jerry "freakin' Jones!!!!!!

In all seriousness Cowboys fans are one of the dumbest fanbases in all of sports

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm 
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CaptainSkybeard wrote:
I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

Sigh.

Yeah, that can be less exciting then to watch Tony "the human turnover machine" Romo cough up the ball to the opposing team, I'll give him that!

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:11 pm 
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CaptainSkybeard wrote:
I will try to show him the videos. Hard to argue with that.

When I asked him if he had watched many of Seattle's games besides the Dallas game he said "i tried but I fell asleep watching him give the ball to Lynch over and over"

Sigh.



This is really weird because 1) Wilson has more throws than Lynch has carries and 2) Lynch is actually good and fun to watch

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:24 pm 
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RG3 and Romo? Where do I start. Firstly, none of those guys have Lynch and Turbin as their RB's. So just with the calibre of our backs that already tells that we are not going to rely on the passing game to be our one all be all of our offense. So there is a reason why Wilson has the pass attempts count he has. The Skins and Boys put all their chips on their QB's shoulders. If we let Wilson chuck it on every play of course his numbers will be up there too. Secondly, our approach is a little different. We try to stay efficient on O, score some points and let our D protect our leads. We are not in the business of going tit for tat on the scoreboard. We try to be balanced across the board. So in summary, Wilson does what is expected of him and he does it well and on top of that PC has a tightrope on his development. If you call him overrated this early in his career then you're totally misinformed. If anything he's won approval by a great majority on this board and that initself is a tough litmus test.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Stop arguing with stupid people. :)

His last comment belies a level of ignorance that tells me you're wasting your time even trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Wish I understood this when I was younger, but it's 100% true: You simply cannot argue with stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:08 pm 
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oregonhawkfan wrote:
Clearly the guy has no football intelligence and you will not be able to convince him even if you talk until your blue in the face. I imagine he probably uses the same arguments over and over as "evidence" by stating them louder and faster over the top of you while you try to explain anything.


Totally this. Just walk away whenever he mentions anything football related.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Wilson (R):
Cmp 63.6%
Avg 7.33
TDs 17
Int 8
Long 51
QBR 61.8
Rat 93.9

Romo (8):
Cmp 66.2%
Avg 7.36
TDs 16
Int 15
Long 85
QBR 59.7
Rat 85.9

It's true that Russell has fewer yards total and per game, but he's also a rookie who plays in an offense predicated on using the run and having offensive balance. His average per completion is almost identical to Romo's. He also has 1 more TD and far fewer picks.

As to the argument that Russell doesn't throw deep, here's an article from mid-October that belies that: http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... t&id=78502. His long of 51 yards was, I believe, actually 51 yards in the air, not YAC.

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:34 pm 
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He knows Romo has serious issues and Dallas is basically out of the playoffs. Annoyingly enough, all I hear now is how the 49ers are legit and Kaepernick completes the 49ers blah blah blah.

Honestly I think there must be a particular radio show that likes to bash the Seahawks a lot because a lot of the stuff this guy and others spout off seems like regurgitated baseless drivel.

I try not to argue with idiots but I get picked on because I am the only Seahawks guy around. I honestly think the GB thing spread so much negative stuff around that people just associate the Seahawks with something to dislike. They really hate Golden Tate and for some reason Pete because of that, I guess because he didn't apologize for winning??

Aside from talking football this guy is cool. But I can't just sit in the room an let completely inaccurate stuff be said about Wilson. By the way I was one of those Flynn guys that thought Wilson should sit a year but after the NE game I was sold.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Wilson ranks fifth in air yards per attempt. Does your coworker know what dink and dunk means?

All the other stuff is true enough, it's just not all that important. We're supposed to discredit all of Wilson's other stats because the coaches don't get him the ball as often as other QBs? That doesn't make a lot of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:05 am 
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To put this entire thing into perspective.

When is the last time you won an argument with a sports fan?

:141847_bnono:

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 Post subject: Re: Help me win an argument
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Ask him if he watched today's game. Woo!

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