Sherman and Browner facing suspension

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Re: Sherman and Browner facing suspension
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:27 pm
  • manders2600 wrote:
    kidhawk wrote:
    manders2600 wrote:The bottom line, though, is that the league is suspending them for a failed test, not for a failed test specifically because of Adderall. Adderall is simply what players tell the public they have been taking, which in this case seems extremely unlikely.



    You say that players claim to be taking Adderall, but that is NOT the case here. Sherman has said that he is being banned for taking that particular banned substance, but is denying it and says he will be exonerated. Now, is he speaking the truth? who knows. I'm sure many guilty people make these claims, but IN THIS CASE, the player is not CLAIMING TO HAVE TAKEN ADDERALL


    Is he claiming not to have taken anything at all, or is he claiming that he will be exonerated for some unspecified reason?


    "Something I have never done," Sherman said, referring to the usage of Adderall, a drug typically prescribed to patients suffering from attention deficit disorder. Sherman added that he has not "taken anything," that would cause him to be suspended under the NFL rules for performance-enhancing drugs.


    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... suspension

    I hope he and Browner are telling the truth, they're my favorite players on this team.
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:29 pm
  • on 710 this AM they were saying Adderal is a masking agent taken to cover steroid use.
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:30 pm
  • has anybody considered they might be innocent i mean jesus christ everybody is jumping to conclusions
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:31 pm
  • From the reading I've done on adderall it says its most prevalent in colleges with high academic standards. So which one of our DB's came from a school with high standards? I wouldn't be surprised if Sherman has been taking them since his Stanford days. Hopefully they're innocent as they've stated but for now, who knows...
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:34 pm
  • kmedic wrote:I agree with PatsFan- cmon guys, when has a guy getting caught doing Adderal ever had his suspension reversed? And don't you think it's just a little too coincidental that 3 DB's on the same team get caught doing this crap within a couple months? There's obviously a bad apple in the group and I wanna know who it is.


    Every guy in that locker room knows what Adderall is and what it can do for them, and they all know it's banned by the NFL. All those guys made their own choices.

    "I wanna know who it is." I kinda lol'ed at that. So you can take him to task on the boards? There is no "bad apple", some shady character on the practice squad in the locker room whose sole purpose is to score drugs. The guys rolled the dice, a majority of guys in professional sports do at some point in their career. They got caught, they'll pay the consequences.
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Re: Sherman and Browner facing suspension
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:41 pm
  • Please let at least ONE if them have diagnosed ADHD.

    Sherman does seem very confident though. He would seem very stupid if he turns out to be clearly guilty, and he knows that.... So stay tuned...
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:43 pm
  • I'm letting it play out. Sherm and Browner seem to think they are innocent. Course who doesn't, but we'll see.
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Re: Sherman and Browner facing suspension
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:49 pm
  • Killa Kam wrote:
    manders2600 wrote:
    Is he claiming not to have taken anything at all, or is he claiming that he will be exonerated for some unspecified reason?


    "Something I have never done," Sherman said, referring to the usage of Adderall, a drug typically prescribed to patients suffering from attention deficit disorder. Sherman added that he has not "taken anything," that would cause him to be suspended under the NFL rules for performance-enhancing drugs.


    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... suspension

    I hope he and Browner are telling the truth, they're my favorite players on this team.


    Yeah, that seems way less likely to be over-turned.

    I assumed he would not choose to dispute the testing practices agreed to by the NFLPA, or try to simply say, "The test is wrong".
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:56 pm
  • I take adderall. I've taken it since I had to switch off Ritalin because it elevated my heart rate. I have a serious case of ADD which was ADHD when I was a kid. The difference it has made in my life is profound. I am a smart guy for the most part. I was pulling straight F's in school from 4th grade on (because that was the first year they gave out letter grades). My parents ran me through every psychologist and other doctor they could. No solutions were found.

    I was in and out of high school five times before finally being expelled in November of my sophomore year. I finally got a GED at age 18 1/2 due to my brother prodding me to do it. Then I took one college class and it was excruciating. I got a good grade though, as it was a writing class. Then I attempted to take a full load of classes. I failed all of them. I was put on academic probation and tried again. I passed one class and failed the rest. I got a "last chance buddy" from BYU and took only classes that completely interested me, but had nothing to do with my major. I ended up getting straight C's, but it was awful. Luckily I was in a group where I was going overseas and 12 of my credits were tied to that. That was the only thing that helped me to pass, and one art class. So I passed 16 credits. 12 study abroad, 3 art, 1 for golf. That was it. Then I just quit and went to work for a software company. I ended up quitting that job after 3 months. I couldn't handle it.

    This is where I realized I needed help. I went and saw a doctor who was younger and more into the latest and greatest treatments and not the "usual stuff". He looked through all of my school records, had me take tests, etc. He then just observed me taking this survey and said that I had the highest ADD score he'd ever seen, and I was 23 at the time. He said most people outgrow it by adulthood, but that is typically if they have ADD as a child. If they have ADHD as a child then it frequently morphs into ADD as an adult. He put me on medication. Within a week I noticed things were different. I saw the world differently. I was dare I say it, happy? I didn't sit in a chair and freak out. I could sleep. I went to a movie and sat through it. I went and got my job back after some begging and quickly soared to the top of the charts for productivity and got promoted. I decided after a year and a half to give school another try.

    I signed up for the teaching program at Utah Valley State. I ended up graduating in 3.5 years with a 3.95 GPA and perfect evaluation scores. I kept my job the entire time. I was healthy and happy and working 35 hours a week volunteering ten hours a week in elementary schools, and attending school for 4-6 hours a day. It was like night and day. Then I got my first teaching job and everything fell apart within a month. I had stopped taking my meds and I was disorganized, I couldn't remember even small details, I was exhausted, I was confused, I was depressed, I was completely failing at life. I then got back on my meds and things went haywire. It was at this point that they went through a few other meds, and finally found adderall. It took a year to get on Adderall, but I sort of limped along and did ok. The year I got on Adderall I was me again. My students ended up with the highest test scores in the school. I was being interviewed by the district to find out how my scores jumped so much, and it sort of snowballed from there. My students were excelling, and I was promoted to administration. Adderall saved my life and career I think. It also brought out the best in me. There was a clear difference on days when I didn't take my medicine. I was given almost all students with ADD or ADHD because I was able to relate to them and we got along great. I helped a lot of them to love school and to make it through the year and they came out feeling good about themselves and school.

    Why am I going into so much detail? Well.... partially because I have ADD and you can see it come across in my posts. But partially because I hate to see these medications demonized. The FDA is attempting to remove Adderall from the shelves and replace it with Vyvanse, which is a medication that works on the same receptors, but has additional binders and fillers that help to prevent abuse, but also I am extremely allergic to and I can't function on Vyvanse or any other medication. Adderall is the thing that holds my life together and its cousins in the same family of medications gave me a life. They gave me a career, a wife, children, and all things I never could have gotten without treatment.

    I say this with a totally open mind. There is a possibility that we have several players with severe enough cases of ADD that it warrants treatment. You never know. There is also a chance that they think it helps them to play better, or to learn their playbooks, or they were kids who suffered from ADHD and now suffer from Adult ADD like I do, and received it from a doctor who performed the appropriate testing, but failed to get the appropriate waiver from the league (look at the amount of waivers for ADD meds in baseball, it's astronomical, but I can say as a former baseball player that a lot of us kids with ADHD were good at baseball... it was an extremely large amount actually). Look at the compulsive behaviors of athletes. Tightening and retightening gloves, shoes, etc. Adjusting and readjusting chin straps. "Ceremonies" before and during plays that border on obsessive compulsive. I feel that having a good case of ADD can help in sports. I never took my medication before games, and I always felt like I played better off of it. But I did take it everyday when I didn't have a game or after it, because then I could focus on the remainder of my life. I think adrenaline took care of me during game time and my focus was good and such. If anything, I felt like Ritalin/Adderall caused me issues during games. I'd get very dehydrated, my blood sugar would drop, I'd cramp like crazy, etc. But in a normal day it was fine and all went well.

    My hope is that athletes who are abusing it realize that whether they think they are a role model or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is that if they are using the medication improperly then they are creating more issues within the medical community and with the FDA which then creates a stigma and doctors stop prescribing it for those who genuinely need it. But... if players truly need it, and have documentation, then they need to get the proper clearances and get the appropriate waiver from the league. It is the same with many medications. Did you know that athletes can take synthetic testosterone and many do? They need a waiver and league approval because they may suffer from low testosterone. It runs in families. There are a large percentage of athletes who are exceptional who have conditions that allow them to be on medications that don't give them a competitive advantage (such as amphetamine salts like adderall and synthetic t like androgel, testim, and others). They just help the person to fix a chemical imbalance and restore them to a normal level where they are playing and functioning in life at a level they wouldn't be otherwise. I am one of those people, and I hope like heck that these guys did this on the up and up. The chances of 3 of our 8 or so DB's having ADD are slim I guess, but you never know. One or two could be legit, and another could have tried it because the others were using it.

    Another interesting factoid... ask a friend in the Air Force who flies what they carry in their pocket with them. My last discussion with my doctor about adderall and the fear of it being banned was met with a discussion on the fact that most pilots are given adderall by the military to help them focus and make it on long flights, particularly in combat. Soldiers on the ground are frequently given it as well for the same reasons. They use it to pep them up and keep them functioning and to keep their mind from wandering during difficult circumstances, lack of sleep, lack of food, etc. It is a lifesaver for many of our troops. If it was as dangerous as some people say I don't think it would be given out that freely. But I'm biased as I've been given a life by my treatment for ADD. I hope that athletes and others take it seriously that these medications are the difference maker in many children and adult lives and if they are just horsing around then they are damaging the great treatments for a serious disorder and hurting those of us who depend on it for life. But they are also hurting themselves and their teammates by not getting waivers properly and such. If they had, then I don't think there would be an appeal needed, even if they did get the prescription legitimately. They should have learned from Moffit last year. You need to follow protocol and it won't be an issue. If they did, then I apologize for acting like they didn't, but this is something that is very important to me and as many as 5-10 kids in a classroom at any given moment.
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:06 pm
  • CrimsonWazzu wrote:
    kmedic wrote:I agree with PatsFan- cmon guys, when has a guy getting caught doing Adderal ever had his suspension reversed? And don't you think it's just a little too coincidental that 3 DB's on the same team get caught doing this crap within a couple months? There's obviously a bad apple in the group and I wanna know who it is.


    Every guy in that locker room knows what Adderall is and what it can do for them, and they all know it's banned by the NFL. All those guys made their own choices.

    "I wanna know who it is." I kinda lol'ed at that. So you can take him to task on the boards? There is no "bad apple", some shady character on the practice squad in the locker room whose sole purpose is to score drugs. The guys rolled the dice, a majority of guys in professional sports do at some point in their career. They got caught, they'll pay the consequences.



    Wait, so you think this scenario played out? Sherm wants to up his game so after careful introspective thought, convinces himself, hey, let me try taking Adderal and get away with it. I'll ask my primary care doctor or some other shady doctor for a Rx and "roll the dice". Maybe my buddy BB will do the same....

    I'm sorry I don't buy that- I think the much more believable scenario was, some dude on the roster, maybe on the active or practice squad, or maybe even an agent, says to Sherm and Browner over dinner or drinks, "yo dude, you guys need to show the 49ers what's up on national TV, I got some good stuff to give you that edge, maybe get you an INT or 2 in front of the whole nation. You might get caught but I got a way for you not to." Of course, it didn't work, but the fact is, my belief is that these guys got influenced by someone. That same someone was probably the same guy who told Winston Guy that this stuff might make him into a starter instead of a bench warmer.

    It's like the guy who got Alex Rodriguez into trouble with roids. Alex didn't obtain the PED's himself- it was a crony who infiltrated his social circle.
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  • Still hoping this was a case of contaminated specimens. Seems more likely because both players got hit for the same thing at once.
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:16 pm
  • kmedic wrote:
    CrimsonWazzu wrote:
    kmedic wrote:I agree with PatsFan- cmon guys, when has a guy getting caught doing Adderal ever had his suspension reversed? And don't you think it's just a little too coincidental that 3 DB's on the same team get caught doing this crap within a couple months? There's obviously a bad apple in the group and I wanna know who it is.


    Every guy in that locker room knows what Adderall is and what it can do for them, and they all know it's banned by the NFL. All those guys made their own choices.

    "I wanna know who it is." I kinda lol'ed at that. So you can take him to task on the boards? There is no "bad apple", some shady character on the practice squad in the locker room whose sole purpose is to score drugs. The guys rolled the dice, a majority of guys in professional sports do at some point in their career. They got caught, they'll pay the consequences.



    Wait, so you think this scenario played out? Sherm wants to up his game so after careful introspective thought, convinces himself, hey, let me try taking Adderal and get away with it. I'll ask my primary care doctor or some other shady doctor for a Rx and "roll the dice". Maybe my buddy BB will do the same....

    I'm sorry I don't buy that- I think the much more believable scenario was, some dude on the roster, maybe on the active or practice squad, or maybe even an agent, says to Sherm and Browner over dinner or drinks, "yo dude, you guys need to show the 49ers what's up on national TV, I got some good stuff to give you that edge, maybe get you an INT or 2 in front of the whole nation. You might get caught but I got a way for you not to." Of course, it didn't work, but the fact is, my belief is that these guys got influenced by someone. That same someone was probably the same guy who told Winston Guy that this stuff might make him into a starter instead of a bench warmer.

    It's like the guy who got Alex Rodriguez into trouble with roids. Alex didn't obtain the PED's himself- it was a crony who infiltrated his social circle.


    It wasn't exactly a crony who infiltrated his circle. It was his dumb cousin who worked as basically A-Rod's messenger boy. He went on Alex's directions to get a list of items in the DR under the guise of going to visit the family. Then he was traveling with A-rod everywhere, just as that guy who was with Bonds all the time. He didn't come to Barry, it was the other way around. It was the same with A-rod's cousin. He made a living as A-rod's "bodyguard", but was really just his gopher, and finally the Yankees had to ban him from all team facilities. Then they found out Alex was putting him up in hotel rooms wherever the team stayed and put an end to that as well showing him the clause in his contract that said if he used PED's they could void it. So the guy stayed away. He still keeps getting spotted on road trips however and with A-Rod during the offseason.

    There isn't some case here where some baddy got a hold of Alex and convinced him to use PED's. Alex felt his game slipping (look at his last year in Texas and his first in New York). No way he took them only in Texas for a short time and then stopped. It was more likely he started to slip in Texas after about year 2 and then took them when he got to New York and it was pretty obvious as he gained at least 20 pounds of muscle. I pointed this out and was blasted by Yankees fans who claimed he was just growing into his body, but those who used the same argument on Bonds were labeled as delusional.

    Alex was the instigator, not some slimy back alley guy. It was his kid cousin who was not that intelligent and idolized Alex. He was also not afraid to get busted bringing drugs into the country, because Alex would get him off by paying fines and such, but Alex couldn't be caught himself bringing a year's worth of drugs into the country. This is the same system Sosa was using. Having a drug mule bring stuff in from the DR where it is VERY easy to get and getting it into the states. That is why they didn't have the paper trail guys from the US did who were buying it from "aging prevention" docs through the internet in the USA or through Balco and Victor Conte.
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  • I'm not saying this situation is exactly the same as Alex's history, but I am saying that there is likely someone who is offering this stuff to the players, and to me it looks like someone who is in the social circle of the DB's. I really do not believe that Sherm and BB de novo thought that they should take Adderal out of the blue. Someone convinced them they could get away with it and fed it to them.
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  • they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season
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  • So there are three scenarios:

    1) They used Adderall to study playbooks/game film. It's widely used in the NFL to help study, just like it's widely used among college campuses in the US.

    2) They used Adderall to mask physical PEDs (this theory hasn't been tested publicly but makes sense as a rumor and would explain the sudden outburst of Adderall in NFL circles).

    3) They tested positive for something else but are publicly claiming Adderall because the league can't say what PED is actually is. This eliminates the stigma associated with physical PEDs.

    Well now Sherman says he never took Adderall which doesn't make ANY sense on any level for him to say that regardless of which of the above is true.
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  • Sarlacc83 wrote:Still hoping this was a case of contaminated specimens. Seems more likely because both players got hit for the same thing at once.


    Adderall is VERY easy to test for. Contaminated samples aren't likely unless they were all peeing into the same cup. The cup does the test. It has a strip of material on it that lights up for certain drug interactions. The cup is taken into a room and depending on the CBA the player is either watched, or they are in a room with somebody immediately outside the door. The sample is labeled with their name. They urinate in the sterile cup (they break the seal). They then put the cup in a compartment and the cup is removed from the compartment immediately upon their exit and the preliminary tests are run by observing the strip on the side. If something comes up they send off a "b" sample to a lab for further testing. This is how they then differentiate between a specific drug and just a class of drugs. For example, they can test positive for opioids, but then they can run a more specific test and find out what levels and such are going through the blood. I am sure a large percentage of players test positive for opioids due to post game use for immediate pain relief and are just sort of seen as no big deal and "par for the course", but when an amphetamine is picked up then they investigate further. This is probably why they are waiting an appeal. If it has gone to a lab and is verified as adderall, and they find a legitimate doctor who isn't a "farm" and their agent forgot to send in waiver paper work, or it was in process and for some reason there was a mixup (such as the player was given the go-ahead over the phone from the union, but it was a mess up in the process) then it could get thrown out. Another possibility is that they were prescribed the medication legitimately by a doctor during the lockout and called the union. They were told they couldn't get a waiver at that time as there was no contact between players and the league or teams, then they continued using it "as needed" (if that is how the prescription was written) then it could be seen as a paperwork snafu.

    Those are the only cases where I can see that it was a mixup, but a contaminated sample is nearly impossible. However, I have had it happen to me once, it was an under-reading of a medication and they thought I wasn't taking it and was then diverting it. So the failure of the test was because I didn't have the drug in my system. They figured it was a one time thing and the test was just wrong. I never had an issue before or after that and they cleared it from my chart (I am in pain management and am pee tested every 28 days by a VERY ethical clinic). So I've been down this road every 28 days following the normal and best protocol for the last 4 years. They also check your pee temp by the way to make sure you weren't sneaking any in. Funny, but true.
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  • SharkHawk wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Still hoping this was a case of contaminated specimens. Seems more likely because both players got hit for the same thing at once.


    Adderall is VERY easy to test for. Contaminated samples aren't likely unless they were all peeing into the same cup. The cup does the test. It has a strip of material on it that lights up for certain drug interactions. The cup is taken into a room and depending on the CBA the player is either watched, or they are in a room with somebody immediately outside the door. The sample is labeled with their name. They urinate in the sterile cup (they break the seal). They then put the cup in a compartment and the cup is removed from the compartment immediately upon their exit and the preliminary tests are run by observing the strip on the side. If something comes up they send off a "b" sample to a lab for further testing. This is how they then differentiate between a specific drug and just a class of drugs. For example, they can test positive for opioids, but then they can run a more specific test and find out what levels and such are going through the blood. I am sure a large percentage of players test positive for opioids due to post game use for immediate pain relief and are just sort of seen as no big deal and "par for the course", but when an amphetamine is picked up then they investigate further. This is probably why they are waiting an appeal. If it has gone to a lab and is verified as adderall, and they find a legitimate doctor who isn't a "farm" and their agent forgot to send in waiver paper work, or it was in process and for some reason there was a mixup (such as the player was given the go-ahead over the phone from the union, but it was a mess up in the process) then it could get thrown out. Another possibility is that they were prescribed the medication legitimately by a doctor during the lockout and called the union. They were told they couldn't get a waiver at that time as there was no contact between players and the league or teams, then they continued using it "as needed" (if that is how the prescription was written) then it could be seen as a paperwork snafu.

    Those are the only cases where I can see that it was a mixup, but a contaminated sample is nearly impossible. However, I have had it happen to me once, it was an under-reading of a medication and they thought I wasn't taking it and was then diverting it. So the failure of the test was because I didn't have the drug in my system. They figured it was a one time thing and the test was just wrong. I never had an issue before or after that and they cleared it from my chart (I am in pain management and am pee tested every 28 days by a VERY ethical clinic). So I've been down this road every 28 days following the normal and best protocol for the last 4 years. They also check your pee temp by the way to make sure you weren't sneaking any in. Funny, but true.


    That's good information. I was assuming, however, that the NFL drug policy tests for a bunch of different drugs at once, but then again, what do I know about the secret society that is the National Football League.
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  • GeorgeKush wrote:they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season


    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    GeorgeKush wrote:they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season


    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.

    i thought you could play while it is being appealed. that's what happened to eric wright. his suspected adderall use was announced on 11/9 and he hasn't even started serving his suspension yet. i think it starts next week for him, which is 3 or 4 weeks after the announcement. and i agree, this suspension will be upheld. it just might be delayed and he might have to serve 2 of those games at the beginning of next season.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    GeorgeKush wrote:they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season


    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.


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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    GeorgeKush wrote:they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season


    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.


    Don't worry. You are wrong.

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  • Sarlacc83 wrote:
    SharkHawk wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Still hoping this was a case of contaminated specimens. Seems more likely because both players got hit for the same thing at once.


    Adderall is VERY easy to test for. Contaminated samples aren't likely unless they were all peeing into the same cup. The cup does the test. It has a strip of material on it that lights up for certain drug interactions. The cup is taken into a room and depending on the CBA the player is either watched, or they are in a room with somebody immediately outside the door. The sample is labeled with their name. They urinate in the sterile cup (they break the seal). They then put the cup in a compartment and the cup is removed from the compartment immediately upon their exit and the preliminary tests are run by observing the strip on the side. If something comes up they send off a "b" sample to a lab for further testing. This is how they then differentiate between a specific drug and just a class of drugs. For example, they can test positive for opioids, but then they can run a more specific test and find out what levels and such are going through the blood. I am sure a large percentage of players test positive for opioids due to post game use for immediate pain relief and are just sort of seen as no big deal and "par for the course", but when an amphetamine is picked up then they investigate further. This is probably why they are waiting an appeal. If it has gone to a lab and is verified as adderall, and they find a legitimate doctor who isn't a "farm" and their agent forgot to send in waiver paper work, or it was in process and for some reason there was a mixup (such as the player was given the go-ahead over the phone from the union, but it was a mess up in the process) then it could get thrown out. Another possibility is that they were prescribed the medication legitimately by a doctor during the lockout and called the union. They were told they couldn't get a waiver at that time as there was no contact between players and the league or teams, then they continued using it "as needed" (if that is how the prescription was written) then it could be seen as a paperwork snafu.

    Those are the only cases where I can see that it was a mixup, but a contaminated sample is nearly impossible. However, I have had it happen to me once, it was an under-reading of a medication and they thought I wasn't taking it and was then diverting it. So the failure of the test was because I didn't have the drug in my system. They figured it was a one time thing and the test was just wrong. I never had an issue before or after that and they cleared it from my chart (I am in pain management and am pee tested every 28 days by a VERY ethical clinic). So I've been down this road every 28 days following the normal and best protocol for the last 4 years. They also check your pee temp by the way to make sure you weren't sneaking any in. Funny, but true.


    That's good information. I was assuming, however, that the NFL drug policy tests for a bunch of different drugs at once, but then again, what do I know about the secret society that is the National Football League.


    They do. The strip in the cup method lights up for different drugs. Like mine is supposed to show opioids, benzodiazapines (for anxiety), amphetamines (for ADD), and synthetic testosterone (for low testosterone). If any of those don't "hit" on the one pee test I take, then they can have me re-test in 24 hours, they can send it off to a lab for further testing, etc. They also do pill counts though. My test showed that I hadn't taken my anxiety medication (which I had). They didn't send it off to a lab for further testing or take a b sample, because I had never had that strip not "hit" when I took the test. They assumed it was a failure on the part of the test due to my consistency, and my passed tests in the subsequent months gave them the proof they needed to wipe it off my record as a defective test cup (it happens). I guess this is another area where it could happen. If they took a league approved supplement that "hit" for amphetamine use, and was sent off and revealed to be adderall, then the league can buy that supplement they approved off the shelf, test it, and find out that the manufacturer (keep in mind, this is NOT uncommon) put a prescription ingredient in it (this happens in China all the time with non-regulated suppplements... they will slip in a high concentration of prescription meds they get on the black market to have the desired effect). This is part of what the issue was with "Star Caps" that were the big story for the Williams' guys and Will Smith and somebody else a few years ago. The supplement was supposedly approved, but the ingredients had changed and there was no way they could have known they were ingesting something illegal when the hotline they call said star caps were approved for use. It was outdated info they were given and they felt it wasn't their responsibility to know the specific formulation if they were taking something that was on the "clear" list.
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  • If this testing happened in a game in September then why is it coming out now? DOes it really take over two months to confirm a positive test?
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  • I hate the internet sometimes.
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  • Neither player has had a date set for an appeal, according to La Canfora, and both players continue to deny taking any banned substances. La Canfora reports that Browner has told people he puts no supplements in his system at all, as he is already in the drug program and gets tested regularly.

    Sherman told Steve Wyche of the NFL Network that Adderall -- which everyone heard is what got Sherman and Browner in trouble with the league -- is "something I have never done" and said he had not "taken anything."

    Making matters even more complicated is the same-day-testing coincidence. La Canfora reports that it is possible one or both parties could submit to a lie-detector test as part of the evidence submitted on their behalf -- and the players are also looking into any irregularities with the testing that could have resulted in both testing positive more or less at the same time.


    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-o ... l/21140988
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  • Sarlacc83 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    GeorgeKush wrote:they will probably appeal and then won't have to serve their suspensions till next season


    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.


    Don't worry. You are wrong.

    Also, onus. The onus is on you to see the squiggly line telling you the word is wrong.


    There's also a word "owness"

    http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/owness.html

    But thanks for being the forum grammar Nazi. Every forum needs one, I'm just glad you were here in time to point out my mistake..........now I can sleep well tonight knowing you're on watch.
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  • iigakusei wrote:If this testing happened in a game in September then why is it coming out now? DOes it really take over two months to confirm a positive test?


    Like I've said elsewhere. If you test positive in the piss cup (which is considered initial screening or preliminary testing), then the sample goes off to a lab for a more in depth test. This is common practice.
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  • JSeahawks wrote:
    Neither player has had a date set for an appeal, according to La Canfora, and both players continue to deny taking any banned substances. La Canfora reports that Browner has told people he puts no supplements in his system at all, as he is already in the drug program and gets tested regularly.

    Sherman told Steve Wyche of the NFL Network that Adderall -- which everyone heard is what got Sherman and Browner in trouble with the league -- is "something I have never done" and said he had not "taken anything."

    Making matters even more complicated is the same-day-testing coincidence. La Canfora reports that it is possible one or both parties could submit to a lie-detector test as part of the evidence submitted on their behalf -- and the players are also looking into any irregularities with the testing that could have resulted in both testing positive more or less at the same time.


    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-o ... l/21140988


    Why is Browner in the system? Did he test positive for something at the combine? Is this why he was cut and went to Canada for a while (a la Ricky Williams)? I had never heard he was in the system, so this is interesting. If he's in the system already, wouldn't he be looking at longer than 4 game suspension? Sherman isn't in the system, and would get 4 games as a first timer, correct? Or does this mean he failed 2 tests over the last 2 seasons and is now in the system and up for a suspension.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    What?

    Appeal process will be done this week, which means suspensions will be immediately served.

    Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall a NFL drug suspension being lessened or overturned. The owness is on the player for knowing what's going into his body, no excuses.


    Don't worry. You are wrong.

    Also, onus. The onus is on you to see the squiggly line telling you the word is wrong.


    There's also a word "owness"

    http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/owness.html

    But thanks for being the forum grammar Nazi. Every forum needs one, I'm just glad you were here in time to point out my mistake..........now I can sleep well tonight knowing you're on watch.


    Actually, there isn't a word owness (from your very own link). And you're welcome. You deserve only the best.
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Re: Thoughts on the Browner/Sherm Fiasco
Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:02 pm
  • SharkHawk wrote:I take adderall....


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  • SharkHawk wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:
    Neither player has had a date set for an appeal, according to La Canfora, and both players continue to deny taking any banned substances. La Canfora reports that Browner has told people he puts no supplements in his system at all, as he is already in the drug program and gets tested regularly.

    Sherman told Steve Wyche of the NFL Network that Adderall -- which everyone heard is what got Sherman and Browner in trouble with the league -- is "something I have never done" and said he had not "taken anything."

    Making matters even more complicated is the same-day-testing coincidence. La Canfora reports that it is possible one or both parties could submit to a lie-detector test as part of the evidence submitted on their behalf -- and the players are also looking into any irregularities with the testing that could have resulted in both testing positive more or less at the same time.


    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-o ... l/21140988


    Why is Browner in the system? Did he test positive for something at the combine? Is this why he was cut and went to Canada for a while (a la Ricky Williams)? I had never heard he was in the system, so this is interesting. If he's in the system already, wouldn't he be looking at longer than 4 game suspension? Sherman isn't in the system, and would get 4 games as a first timer, correct? Or does this mean he failed 2 tests over the last 2 seasons and is now in the system and up for a suspension.


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  • Pathetic.


    If this turns out to be true...these guys should be done for the rest of the season. There is no excuse for these kinds of activities to be going on. These are suppose to be Professionals, they should act like it. Never understood how atheletes could be given a great gift like playing Professional sports, only to do something stupid like this (fighting, driving like poop, etc.) only to piss on it.


    Again, IF this is true...looks like I'll be purchasing a new Wagner jersey. I can't support this blatant disrespect to the fans team, and PNW.


    Hope it turns out to be a faulty test!


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  • SouthSoundHawk wrote:Pathetic.


    If this turns out to be true...these guys should be done for the rest of the season. There is no excuse for these kinds of activities to be going on. These are suppose to be Professionals, they should act like it. Never understood how atheletes could be given a great gift like playing Professional sports, only to do something stupid like this (fighting, driving like poop, etc.) only to piss on it.


    Again, IF this is true...looks like I'll be purchasing a new Wagner jersey. I can't support this blatant disrespect to the fans team, and PNW.


    Hope it turns out to be a faulty test!


    Go. Hawks.


    Hate to keep posting this but.....

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  • I just got through listening to John Clayton on Bob and Groz's show ... and he seemed to indicate that there's been no definitive word as to what substance they tested positive for.

    I'm just throwing this out there just as a hypothetical. Now, my expertise is in the counseling/clinical end -- not on the testing end, so I'm not totally sure about this. With both of these guys both appearing to be health conscious, I'm wondering about the possibility that they actually took some sort of herbal supplement -- such as Valerian Root, Ginseng, or Passionflower. Some people believe that these are useful for treatment of ADHD ... so I don't at all preclude the possibility that Sherman and Browner may have used some sort of herbal supplement that just so happens to have very similar byproducts (that are tested in the urine) to Adderall. Again, the Chemical Dependency side of things is not my particular field of expertise (mine's as a Mental Health Counselor) ... just throwing that out there as a possibility.
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  • That Miami loss cost us a chance to make the playoffs. Even if we won every home game, which against SF will be hard they way the played Sunday. I do not see us making the playoffs. So let these suspensions take place now. make them miss the final 4 and prepare for next season. I see next season as a make or break for Pete. 4th year in his program, a losing season will not be taken lightly. SO take the suspensions now...no one ever gets out of it by appealing...so just do it now.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:I just got through listening to John Clayton on Bob and Groz's show ... and he seemed to indicate that there's been no definitive word as to what substance they tested positive for.

    I'm just throwing this out there just as a hypothetical. Now, my expertise is in the counseling/clinical end -- not on the testing end, so I'm not totally sure about this. With both of these guys both appearing to be health conscious, I'm wondering about the possibility that they actually took some sort of herbal supplement -- such as Valerian Root, Ginseng, or Passionflower. Some people believe that these are useful for treatment of ADHD ... so I don't at all preclude the possibility that Sherman and Browner may have used some sort of herbal supplement that just so happens to have very similar byproducts (that are tested in the urine) to Adderall. Again, the Chemical Dependency side of things is not my particular field of expertise (mine's as a Mental Health Counselor) ... just throwing that out there as a possibility.


    None of those herbals you mentioned show up ina drug test, as I take them all for anxiety and have never showed positive. beside that, Aderrall is an amphetamine, and none of those herbs would ever test positive as such.

    I keep seeing people saying that the nfl hasn't said what substance they tested positive for, but yesterday there was a giant ticker on the top of nfl.com saying they tested positive for Aderall so unless the nfl has backtracked from that?
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  • As a neurologist, I have deep concerns about the over-prescription of Adderall and other amphetamines, especially to children. I understand that for many who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, these drugs can be an effective treatment. But the long-term risks are not worth the short-term benefits.

    Most neuroscientists are predicting a HUGE growth in the rate of neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers and ALS over the next 20 years, and we expect to see this trend in younger patients than in the past. We are especially concerned about the children who have been prescribed these drugs for ADD/ADHD, as long-term use of the drugs are known to accelerate the onset of these diseases and will begin manifesting symptoms fairly early for these patients, potentially as early as their 30's/40's.

    There is strong evidence to support this theory, and one need look no further than the housewives who were prescribed amphetamines for depression and weight loss from the 1940's-1970's. Starting in the 1980's, we began to see a HUGE spike in Parkinsons and other NDDs among women shortly after menopause. A number of researchers began to study the trend, and discovered that many of these cases were women who had taken amphetamines earlier in life for an extended period of time - generally 2-5 years.

    I won't go too much further into it, as much of the research on this topic is readily available online, and it is off-topic. I only mentioned this out of concern for SharkHawk and other posters who have said they use Adderall and it has been effective for them.

    There are more effective non-amphetamine alternatives available on the market which do not pose anywhere near the same risk. And many of the symptoms patients experience when not taking these drugs are actually the result of amphetamine withdrawal, and should not be viewed as proof of the drug's efficacy. I beg each of you currently on these classes of drugs to find a quality psychiatrist who can speak with you about the alternatives and potentially find you a much safer medication without the addictive and dangerous side effects.

    Sorry again for the temporary hi-jack... I'll shut up now.
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  • xCalibur wrote:That Miami loss cost us a chance to make the playoffs. Even if we won every home game, which against SF will be hard they way the played Sunday. I do not see us making the playoffs. So let these suspensions take place now. make them miss the final 4 and prepare for next season. I see next season as a make or break for Pete. 4th year in his program, a losing season will not be taken lightly. SO take the suspensions now...no one ever gets out of it by appealing...so just do it now.

    actually a new york giants player beat it once so somebody has won the appeal before
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  • I've been researching grounds for overturning the suspensions via the appeal process and I found this article to be most interesting:

    http://www.sportsdatallc.com/2012/06/01/giants-brown-has-ped-suspension-overturned/

    (SportsData) — New York Giants running back Andre Brown had his four-game suspension for use of performance-enhancing drugs overturned on Friday.

    Brown was suspended in late March for violating the National Football League’s policy on PEDs and the third-year pro appealed the decision, saying the violation was due to a clerical error.

    “I don’t know what I can and cannot say,” Brown said on May 22, according to NFL.com. “It was something that I’ve been on since I’ve been in the league, which was Adderall. I just forgot to fill out some paperwork and that was it.”

    An Achilles tendon injury cost Brown, a fourth-round draft pick of the Giants in the 2009 NFL Draft, his entire rookie season before he was released by the team prior to the 2010 season.

    The 25-year-old has spent time with the Denver Broncos, Indianapolis Colts, Carolina Panthers and Washington Redskins, appearing in four professional games and rushing twice for negative-1 yard combined heading into this season and his return to the Giants.


    It sounds like the only possible way to overturn a suspension is if you not only have a prescription, but have somehow not properly notified the league of your need to use this drug. In one sense, having Richard Sherman write, "Not worried" makes me feel a bit better. He can't discuss it but it sounds like he knows that he has a legitimate reason for taking Adderall.

    A few other things that I've learned is that Browner was on some sort of a program. Not sure what this means but someone in the Seattle media tweeted something about being tested 3 times a week. Anyone with additional information on what type of "program" this might be would be helpful..I think Softy was the one who tweeted it.

    Also, this argument won't fly. You are responsible for what's in your body- end of story.
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  • xCalibur wrote:That Miami loss cost us a chance to make the playoffs. Even if we won every home game, which against SF will be hard they way the played Sunday. I do not see us making the playoffs. So let these suspensions take place now. make them miss the final 4 and prepare for next season. I see next season as a make or break for Pete. 4th year in his program, a losing season will not be taken lightly. SO take the suspensions now...no one ever gets out of it by appealing...so just do it now.


    Um, no it didn't. We are still in contention for playoffs.

    Expecting things to happen is why so many people are freaking out about a loss.
    Get off the ledge and man up.
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  • HansGruber wrote:As a neurologist, I have deep concerns about the over-prescription of Adderall and other amphetamines, especially to children. I understand that for many who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, these drugs can be an effective treatment. But the long-term risks are not worth the short-term benefits.

    Most neuroscientists are predicting a HUGE growth in the rate of neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers and ALS over the next 20 years, and we expect to see this trend in younger patients than in the past. We are especially concerned about the children who have been prescribed these drugs for ADD/ADHD, as long-term use of the drugs are known to accelerate the onset of these diseases and will begin manifesting symptoms fairly early for these patients, potentially as early as their 30's/40's.

    There is strong evidence to support this theory, and one need look no further than the housewives who were prescribed amphetamines for depression and weight loss from the 1940's-1970's. Starting in the 1980's, we began to see a HUGE spike in Parkinsons and other NDDs among women shortly after menopause. A number of researchers began to study the trend, and discovered that many of these cases were women who had taken amphetamines earlier in life for an extended period of time - generally 2-5 years.

    I won't go too much further into it, as much of the research on this topic is readily available online, and it is off-topic. I only mentioned this out of concern for SharkHawk and other posters who have said they use Adderall and it has been effective for them.

    There are more effective non-amphetamine alternatives available on the market which do not pose anywhere near the same risk. And many of the symptoms patients experience when not taking these drugs are actually the result of amphetamine withdrawal, and should not be viewed as proof of the drug's efficacy. I beg each of you currently on these classes of drugs to find a quality psychiatrist who can speak with you about the alternatives and potentially find you a much safer medication without the addictive and dangerous side effects.

    Sorry again for the temporary hi-jack... I'll shut up now.


    I appreciate the info. As a neurologist I'm sure you see a lot. For me, it's a quality of life issue. Quite honestly if I hadn't been put on amphetamines in my mid-20's I am 100% certain I would have committed suicide or been permanently placed in a place for people who are a threat to themselves. So for me it's a quality of life issue. I had no quality of life from the time I was basically able to walk and talk and my mid-20's. If that means I end up with Parkinson's, then honestly it is worth the risk for me at this point. I wouldn't survive otherwise, and I did try every possible combination, therapy, etc. etc. before going the Ritalin then adderall route. If it was there my psychiatrist and I made a very serious decision and considered all consequences and attempted all options. It is never to be taken lightly and to me, it should be the last resort.

    I have a 9 year old son who is as ADHD as I was at his age. We don't treat him with anything, except lots of love, tons of daily reminders and scheduling, and behavioral modification stuff we do as teachers (my wife and I are both certified teachers, and she has 16 years experience and a doctorate equivalent, so we have picked up a lot on educational psychology... probably as much as we can get without going to med school I'd guess). I'm not saying we're perfect, but we know the risks and for our son it is an absolute last resort, not a first or even second resort. The closest I've come to "drugging" him was to have him drink 4 oz. of Coca Cola when his brain is so scattered that he can't even put a sentence together and focus long enough to get his homework done. We do this rarely, and most of the time I or my wife act as his concentration center of his brain, which is precisely what I'd do for my students, by setting tiny goals, pointing at individual problem, creating milestones throughout the day, etc. I know the impact these medications have for sure. I just don't want to see them demonized for reasons like athletes using them or for recreational use. I also feel that as an adult I had to make the very serious decision of whether or not I wanted a life or wanted to continue with what I had. I took life and I'll live with the aftereffects. I can tell you for certain though that the difference was night and day. I know they are overprescribed, but I can absolutely and unequivocally guarantee you that I am one of the 1% of people who needs these medications in order to live. Honestly. I derive no enjoyment from taking them. I don't take them on weekends or holidays, workdays only. I don't get a "high", and I take the smallest dosage possible.

    Sorry to off-track myself there... just felt it was worth responding to, and I didn't take my adderall today because I have been sick. :)
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Who knew the Taiwanese were so interested in NFL drug suspensions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... on-_PQISU#!


    This is pretty bizarre. Does Taiwan really watch our news that closely?
    The news broke on this late YESTERDAY!
    Good for a belly-laugh (and I bet Bears fans will love the end).

    I literally laughed out loud (yeah...yeah...I've always hated that "LOL" crap for some reason).

    Oh, and superb posts SharkHawk btw.
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  • Basis4day wrote:
    xCalibur wrote:That Miami loss cost us a chance to make the playoffs. Even if we won every home game, which against SF will be hard they way the played Sunday. I do not see us making the playoffs. So let these suspensions take place now. make them miss the final 4 and prepare for next season. I see next season as a make or break for Pete. 4th year in his program, a losing season will not be taken lightly. SO take the suspensions now...no one ever gets out of it by appealing...so just do it now.


    Um, no it didn't. We are still in contention for playoffs.

    Expecting things to happen is why so many people are freaking out about a loss.
    Get off the ledge and man up.


    You are technically right but to continue to piss away winnable games makes your margin for error zero.

    It has nothing to do with manning up.
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  • HansGruber wrote:Sorry again for the temporary hi-jack... I'll shut up now.


    Appreciate your post as well. Very timely, informative AND pertinent to the thread's conversation. (I think anyway)
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  • Tech Worlds wrote:
    Basis4day wrote:
    xCalibur wrote:That Miami loss cost us a chance to make the playoffs. Even if we won every home game, which against SF will be hard they way the played Sunday. I do not see us making the playoffs. So let these suspensions take place now. make them miss the final 4 and prepare for next season. I see next season as a make or break for Pete. 4th year in his program, a losing season will not be taken lightly. SO take the suspensions now...no one ever gets out of it by appealing...so just do it now.


    Um, no it didn't. We are still in contention for playoffs.

    Expecting things to happen is why so many people are freaking out about a loss.
    Get off the ledge and man up.


    You are technically right but to continue to piss away winnable games makes your margin for error zero.

    It has nothing to do with manning up.


    I like to think of myself as a glass-half-full guy as far as our team goes, but even before news broke about the adderall, my gut feeling was that losing Sunday had torpedoed our playoff chances. Don't want to think that, but it's what feels likely. Was hoping for an invigorated, new look on-the-road Hawks.

    Suspension of disbelief has its breaking point.....
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    gargantual
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  • SharkHawk wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:As a neurologist, I have deep concerns about the over-prescription of Adderall and other amphetamines, especially to children. I understand that for many who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, these drugs can be an effective treatment. But the long-term risks are not worth the short-term benefits.

    Most neuroscientists are predicting a HUGE growth in the rate of neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinsons, Alzheimers and ALS over the next 20 years, and we expect to see this trend in younger patients than in the past. We are especially concerned about the children who have been prescribed these drugs for ADD/ADHD, as long-term use of the drugs are known to accelerate the onset of these diseases and will begin manifesting symptoms fairly early for these patients, potentially as early as their 30's/40's.

    There is strong evidence to support this theory, and one need look no further than the housewives who were prescribed amphetamines for depression and weight loss from the 1940's-1970's. Starting in the 1980's, we began to see a HUGE spike in Parkinsons and other NDDs among women shortly after menopause. A number of researchers began to study the trend, and discovered that many of these cases were women who had taken amphetamines earlier in life for an extended period of time - generally 2-5 years.

    I won't go too much further into it, as much of the research on this topic is readily available online, and it is off-topic. I only mentioned this out of concern for SharkHawk and other posters who have said they use Adderall and it has been effective for them.

    There are more effective non-amphetamine alternatives available on the market which do not pose anywhere near the same risk. And many of the symptoms patients experience when not taking these drugs are actually the result of amphetamine withdrawal, and should not be viewed as proof of the drug's efficacy. I beg each of you currently on these classes of drugs to find a quality psychiatrist who can speak with you about the alternatives and potentially find you a much safer medication without the addictive and dangerous side effects.

    Sorry again for the temporary hi-jack... I'll shut up now.


    I appreciate the info. As a neurologist I'm sure you see a lot. For me, it's a quality of life issue. Quite honestly if I hadn't been put on amphetamines in my mid-20's I am 100% certain I would have committed suicide or been permanently placed in a place for people who are a threat to themselves. So for me it's a quality of life issue. I had no quality of life from the time I was basically able to walk and talk and my mid-20's. If that means I end up with Parkinson's, then honestly it is worth the risk for me at this point. I wouldn't survive otherwise, and I did try every possible combination, therapy, etc. etc. before going the Ritalin then adderall route. If it was there my psychiatrist and I made a very serious decision and considered all consequences and attempted all options. It is never to be taken lightly and to me, it should be the last resort.

    I have a 9 year old son who is as ADHD as I was at his age. We don't treat him with anything, except lots of love, tons of daily reminders and scheduling, and behavioral modification stuff we do as teachers (my wife and I are both certified teachers, and she has 16 years experience and a doctorate equivalent, so we have picked up a lot on educational psychology... probably as much as we can get without going to med school I'd guess). I'm not saying we're perfect, but we know the risks and for our son it is an absolute last resort, not a first or even second resort. The closest I've come to "drugging" him was to have him drink 4 oz. of Coca Cola when his brain is so scattered that he can't even put a sentence together and focus long enough to get his homework done. We do this rarely, and most of the time I or my wife act as his concentration center of his brain, which is precisely what I'd do for my students, by setting tiny goals, pointing at individual problem, creating milestones throughout the day, etc. I know the impact these medications have for sure. I just don't want to see them demonized for reasons like athletes using them or for recreational use. I also feel that as an adult I had to make the very serious decision of whether or not I wanted a life or wanted to continue with what I had. I took life and I'll live with the aftereffects. I can tell you for certain though that the difference was night and day. I know they are overprescribed, but I can absolutely and unequivocally guarantee you that I am one of the 1% of people who needs these medications in order to live. Honestly. I derive no enjoyment from taking them. I don't take them on weekends or holidays, workdays only. I don't get a "high", and I take the smallest dosage possible.

    Sorry to off-track myself there... just felt it was worth responding to, and I didn't take my adderall today because I have been sick. :)


    I'm sorry, I wouldn't normally do this, and it's definitely not the purpose of this thread, but as a psychiatrist, I think the blanket generalizations you have made about prescription stimulants are misleading. I do not claim to be an expert in dementia, but my particular area of focus going forward is neuropsychiatry, and this is a particularly hot topic. You're a neurologist so I won't patronize you by claiming to know more about this topic, but I do feel I have some ground to speak. Correlational studies, particularly retrospective studies, do not prove this point. Current prescription stimulants, specifically ritalin and its successors, did not begin being prescribed for ADD/ADHD until the mid-60s. Its use prior to that is difficult to study for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the difficulty in obtaining medical records from 30 years ago (if these studies are conducted in the 1980s). These sorts of studies are prone to all sorts of bias, most specifically recall bias, but we don't need to get into that here. The effects of prescription stimulants are, of course, different from street-made methamphetamine, which has its own slew of issues.

    Long-term use of these drugs is not 'known' to accelerate the onset of Alzheimer's, certainly not in the majority of patients who take these medications. I have not seen any convincing, rigorously-designed studies that suggest this. If you have them, I would love to see them, and please feel free to PM me their citations. I'm perfectly happy to learn something new about my profession, but as you are aware, stimulants are widely prescribed, and neurodegenerative disorders are an extremely hot issue right now, and therefore I find it difficult to believe the research is as convincing as you say if it is not more widely disseminated among prescribers.

    That said, what I really disagree with is the following:

    Your description of the benefits as 'short-term.' SharkHawk, I believe, made a very nice point. ADHD is not about short-term benefits, as it can severely impact the intellectual and social growth and development of a child. It impacts grades, college applications, job applications, and life trajectory. ADHD is NOT a disease that individuals grow out of reliably, contrary to popular belief, and up to 2/3 of children diagnosed in grades 1-4 with ADHD persist with symptoms into adulthood. Amphetamines can have known cardiovascular and abuse-related risks which are clearly concerning, but the distinction between risk and benefit is not that clean-cut.

    Your assertion that there are "more effective" non-amphetamine alternatives available which do not pose anywhere near the same risk. This may be a bit ticky-tack, but I want to clarify that these non-amphetamine alternatives, such as atomoxetine, modafinil (off-label), buproprion, etc, are NOT more effective on an individual basis. Atomoxetine is the most promising of these, and probably is approximately as likely (percentagewise) to relieve symptoms when prescribed, de novo, to children between grades 1-4 for the treatment of ADHD. It is not the case that you can substitute mixed amphetamine salts for atomoxetine in long-term patients and expect continued symptom remission. Moreover, as many of them are (relatively) new, particularly atomoxetine which is still under patent, their long-term side effect profile is more opaque. That does not NECESSARILY mean that they are 'far safer,' particularly for individuals with seizure disorders or other medical comorbidities.

    Amphetamine salts, such as ritalin, adderall, concerta, focalin, and others remain, and will continue to remain a valuable tool for ADHD. It is not the first medication I would prescribe for ADHD, and I think that over time amphetamine salts will be relegated to second-line status for ADHD in children who fail a trial of strattera (atomoxetine). I think behavioral interventions, just as SharkHawk suggested, can be very effective as well, and obviously this decision should be made carefully with each patient, parent, and child.

    Thanks.
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  • As far as Sherman not being worried goes, it doesn't make me feel any better.

    I see it as Sherman just being Sherman, cocky and no shame. It's why we love him and could be why he get's in trouble.

    Every PED suspension begins with a player being clueless of how it ended up in his system or confident it will be explained away.
    hawkmanj
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  • Very well said. I went through at least a 2 month trial of each of these medications. Wellbutrin (bupoprion) was the most successful for me, but I had massive panic attacks and elevated heart rate. To me the tradeoff wasn't worth it, because rather than one dosage a day of Adderall XR I was on Wellbutrin (450 mg), buspar, ambien, and several cortisone inhalers (long and short term) to help with the breathing difficulties I was having from hyperventilating myself from the anxiety causing effects of wellbutrin. So which is better for me? The one amphetamine salts drug or Wellbutrin (which is known to cause seizures at dosages around this size), buspar (which you can OD on if taking any grapefruit or grapefruit juice by accident), ambien (long list of side effects, including amnesia, sleep walking, eating, and driving, etc., and cortisone which breaks down tissues in the body. I'll take adderall thanks. Much safer when all matters are considered.

    I'm glad we have docs who care and do their research and want to do what's best for their patients. To tie it back on topic...hopefully that is what the case was with the guys here if it wasn't just a simple faulty test.

    Keep up the great work and research guys. You're doing the world a lot of good.

    And yes... I have been on these long term with no bad effects. All of my problems are related to disc degeneration and a surgeon slicing a nerve in half in my leg on a surgery, followed by a nice 4 month battle with C-Difficile. Yeehaw!
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  • More like clostridiYUM difficile...
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