How is Bruce Irvin Doing Compared to other DE's in the Draft

I think he's done pretty good thus far but the last few games he seems to be reverting back to just speed rushing rather that working on spin or swim moves to discard his blocker. These skills will come in time with proper coaching. Overall I'm glad we have him.

Sgt. Largent":y7o5y11w said:

Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

In order drafted
Fletcher Cox - Philly = 11 tackles, 1 sack
Michael Brockers - St. Louis = 6 tackles, 1 sack
Bruce Irvin - Seattle = 7 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Quintin Coples - Jets = 15 tackles, 2 sacks
Shea McClellin - San Diego = 5 tackles, 2 sacks
Chandler Jones - New England = 33 tackles, 6 sacks, 3 forced fumbles
Whitney Mercilus - 9 tackles, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble

So what grade do you guys give Bruce halfway through his first season? While I like his POTENTIAL to be a bigtime pass rusher, I look at the stats of a full time D-End like Jones who's lighting up his rookie year........taken AFTER Irvin, and see that Irvin has a long long way to go to earn his high draft pick.

Let's be honest, Irvin has had flashes of brilliance (Green Bay game).......but for the most part has been invisible for long stretches of the season so far.

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He is primarily playing 3rd down only.... I think you forgot to mention that...or maybe you didn't know that.

hawkfan68":3fvpc75d said:

Thus making the comparison even more irrelevant.

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I wasn't the one that made the comparison.

Sgt. Largent":10ooedyc said:

sadhappy":10ooedyc said:

Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

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You don't think our D-Line's lack of a consistent pass rush this year is a problem? It certainly was in the Lion game, and I could argue was the determining factor in the loss.

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I'm on the fence with statments like this. We are ranked 7th in the league with 21 sacks. So it's not like we aren't getting to the QB. Sure 8 of those 21 are against GB but we are consistently getting 2 or more sacks in nearly every outing. So it might be unrealistic to think we should be getting 3-4 sacks a game. But it is clear that our pass rush is spotty. At times it looks brilliant, but it also disappears for long stretches.

I think we need to dial up more blitzes. It seems like we are relying on a 4 man rush way too often. It cound be worse, Jacksonville has 7 sacks TOTAL, Philly has 9.

Sgt. Largent":28j5y6g0 said:

aku":28j5y6g0 said:

When he was drafted, we hoped to get the next Aldon Smith. So far, we've gotten it. I can't see how we could be disappointed.

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We did?

Smith had 31 tackles and 14 sacks last year. Irvin is on pace for 14 tackles and 9 sacks. That's not even close.

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Through 8 games Aldon Smith last year had 12 tackles and 6.5 sacks. Irvin isn't too far off that pace this year for 8 games.

Chandler Jones has been a beast. Very good pick by the Pats

I'd give Irvin a C+. Seems like if he is facing any O lineman with decent quickness he gets easily swallowed up. But he has had a few glorious moments, so that saves him, plus I'd give him credit for being a rookie.

hawkfan68":duq6hsg0 said:

Sgt. Largent":duq6hsg0 said:

aku":duq6hsg0 said:

When he was drafted, we hoped to get the next Aldon Smith. So far, we've gotten it. I can't see how we could be disappointed.

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We did?

Smith had 31 tackles and 14 sacks last year. Irvin is on pace for 14 tackles and 9 sacks. That's not even close.

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Actually, it's closer than you think. Irvin plays less than Aldon Smith. Smith is an every down DE in 49er system. Irvin is not that in the Seahawk system. Red Bryant and Clemons get most of the reps in the current Seahawk scheme. So comparing the two is somewhat flawed logic. As others have mentioned, there is schematic difference between 49er defense and Seahawk defense. Thus making the comparison even more irrelevant.

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Actually it is a fair comparison because last year Aldon Smith was a situational player as Irvin is this year. Also Aldon is starting this year you are right but it's at LBer.

What I don't think makes the comparison fair is that Aldon Smith is on a much better defense with better players around him giving him better chances.

jlwaters1":1zddqc7b said:

I think we need to dial up more blitzes. It seems like we are relying on a 4 man rush way too often. It cound be worse, Jacksonville has 7 sacks TOTAL, Philly has 9.

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If the Hawks truly want to be considered an "elite" defense, then they're going to have to get consistent pressure with just their four down linemen.

I agree with your blitzing comment, but only too a point. What I'd like to see is more creative blitz packages, and not just rush Thomas or a DB off the edge when we need to get pressure. Blitzes can expose a defense as we saw in Detroit, which is why our front four need to do better.

I'd give him a c+ so far. Seems like he needs to develope a few more moves than just a speed rush. Think he has a good future ahead of him. I'd assume they try and get him to add a little weight this off season and become an every down DE eventually.

hedgehawk":26sorzhg said:

I'd give him a c+ so far. Seems like he needs to develope a few more moves than just a speed rush. Think he has a good future ahead of him. I'd assume they try and get him to add a little weight this off season and become an every down DE eventually.

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Good points! We Seattle fans seem to be "driven for perfection". There are some here who won't settle for a "Top 10" producer. While you and I may question Pete's wisdom in drafting Irvin in the First Round of the Draft, we cannot say that Pete did not have a very specific use for Bruce in his first year. Young players take a year or two to develope into their full potential. Most here are expecting a stronger team for next year and are looking forward to a 11-5 season where Bruce will show even greater production.

Sgt. Largent":1h3iudq0 said:

Since we're at the midway point of the 2012 season, I thought it'd be interesting to compare Irvin's stats to the other D-Lineman taken in the first round that the Hawks were rumored to be interested in.

In order drafted
Fletcher Cox - Philly = 11 tackles, 1 sack
Michael Brockers - St. Louis = 6 tackles, 1 sack
Bruce Irvin - Seattle = 7 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Quintin Coples - Jets = 15 tackles, 2 sacks
Shea McClellin - San Diego = 5 tackles, 2 sacks
Chandler Jones - New England = 33 tackles, 6 sacks, 3 forced fumbles
Whitney Mercilus - 9 tackles, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble

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I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

But in any case, providing snap counts on defense thru week 8 might add some perspective.

490 defensive snaps - Chandler Jones = 33 tackles, 6 sacks, 3 forced fumbles
296 defensive snaps - Quintin Coples = 15 tackles, 2 sacks
272 defensive snaps - Fletcher Cox = 11 tackles, 1 sack
217 defensive snaps - Bruce Irvin = 7 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
215 defensive snaps - Michael Brockers = 6 tackles, 1 sack
201 defensive snaps - Shea McClellin = 5 tackles, 2 sacks
079 defensive snaps - Whitney Mercilus = 9 tackles, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble

By the way, Bruce Irvin leads all Seahawk defensive linemen in special teams snaps with 41 thru week eight. The trio of Mebane, Bryant and Branch are all tied for second with 28 special teams snaps each.

For those interested in snap counts, Football Outsiders is your source and friend >>> http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts2012

I'm sorry, I've forgotten who Bruce Irvin is.

Sgt. Largent":18gv9wzy said:

sadhappy":18gv9wzy said:

Just feels like searching for problems where there really isn't one to me.

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You don't think our D-Line's lack of a consistent pass rush this year is a problem? It certainly was in the Lion game, and I could argue was the determining factor in the loss.

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That IMHO is a concern and a contributing factor in our losses this season. Putting the qb on his back, even if it isnt a sack affects the way a qb thinks , how long he's willing to hang onto the ball, produces "happy feet". Too many comfortable drop backs for Stafford. Oh yeah, he's a pretty damned good player too. 300 yards good.

hawkfan68":3p2bb1f9 said:

I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

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Aside from the sack totals, which can be deceiving, have you noticed him disrupting the passer? Causing errant throws or flushing the QB out of the pocket?

Are his sacks blows assignments or dd he beat them with moves?

Basically, what i'm asking, is when he's not getting sacks, what have you seen. That's the best way to assess him. Because 4.5 sacks is only 5 plays to assess from.

From the games i've seen, which were three (GB, Lions, Niners and Dallas), Irvin was a non factor aside from the GB game.

Young2Rice":2nlviler said:

hawkfan68":2nlviler said:

I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

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Aside from the sack totals, which can be deceiving, have you noticed him disrupting the passer? Causing errant throws or flushing the QB out of the pocket?

Are his sacks blows assignments or dd he beat them with moves?

Basically, what i'm asking, is when he's not getting sacks, what have you seen. That's the best way to assess him. Because 4.5 sacks is only 5 plays to assess from.

From the games i've seen, which were three (GB, Lions, Niners and Dallas), Irvin was a non factor aside from the GB game.

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Pretty sure that's four my friend.

Sgt. Largent":1k9jhzz8 said:

hawkfan68":1k9jhzz8 said:

I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

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My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

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I think jason jones is the most vauable linemen

Pressure in the A gap moves the qb and allows ends to use speed and chase down. He will get paid next year...without inside pressure we are kind of stuck...

zayden185":3c5ni6i7 said:

Sgt. Largent":3c5ni6i7 said:

hawkfan68":3c5ni6i7 said:

I think Irvin is doing well. He's not a full-time DE at this point and his sack numbers are the second highest.

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My concern isn't his sack total, it's his tackle total. Didn't Carroll say after he was drafted that he fully expected Irvin to develop into full time DE, and not just a "pass rush specialist?"

I know Irvin is still developing, but if the Detroit game proved anything, it's that our D-Line desperately needs him to get consistent pressure on the QB. We're now halfway through the season, it's time for Irvin to step up. This D can't afford for him to be absent on the stat sheet anymore.

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I think jason jones is the most vauable linemen

Pressure in the A gap moves the qb and allows ends to use speed and chase down. He will get paid next year...without inside pressure we are kind of stuck...

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MVP DL on passing downs at least.

Other than that minor caveat I reckon you pretty much summed it up. Jones moves the qb off his launch point and into the damage path of the ends. He's proving his point that he deserves to get paid.

Jville":in1kj9zm said:

I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

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You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

Sgt. Largent":19uo1mqd said:

Jville":19uo1mqd said:

I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

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You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

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Double edge sword of the scheme.

Sgt. Largent":3o7x6elc said:

Jville":3o7x6elc said:

I'm not sure how useful these statistical summaries are for comparing different players used in different ways in different systems. Whitney Mercilus, for example, is actually listed as a linebacker who has seen more snaps on special teams (109) than on defense (79) thru week 8.

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You kinda illustrated my concern. The criticism of most draft experts was that Irvin was a pass rush specialist, and therefore not worthy of such a high pick.......and your snap count list proves that.

This is also in direct contrast to what Carroll said at the draft which was Irvin was not going to just be a pass rusher, that he was going to be developed into a full time DE.

Will Irvin be great someday? Maybe, but right now we're not getting enough production out of that DE spot opposite Clemons, and it's hurting our pass defense.

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Development time. Your talking about development time. Most rookies need time to develop their game in high school, college, and the NFL.

The draft objective that sticks in my mind is the selection of players with unique characteristics. Bruce Irvin as well as Jaye Howard have unique attributes that John and Pete covet. However, Bruce and Jaye both arrived with narrow specialties that limit their usefulness early on in their careers. Jaye Howard in fact has yet to see the field during the regular season.

I think the criticism that John and Pete have placed too much emphasis on specialists is a valid argument by outsiders. However, the current Seahawk program is structured to bring in and develop young players every year and turn over the roster in a planned manner.

So .... it may take two or three years to broaden the skill sets of Howard and Irvin and turn them into three down players. I for one was very relieved with the news that Chris Clemons signed a three year contract. In Seattle's current program, where a player is drafted is a reflection of perceived supply and demand of skill sets .... and not a reflection of perceived return on investement in the short term.

What I see is a program designed to dominate the division. Striving to understand it and watch it unfold is the fun part. :th2thumbs: