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Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
12-4. We win out. Take that negative nelly's! NFC West Champs 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
11-5. Win every final game but one. Wildcard. 8%  8%  [ 12 ]
10-6. Finish on a 6-2 hot streak. Wildcard. 36%  36%  [ 53 ]
9-7. Finish a respectable 5-3 run to end the year. Possible Wildcard. 37%  37%  [ 54 ]
8-8. Lose one game at home, lose all the road games. No playoffs. 10%  10%  [ 15 ]
7-9 or worse. Hot Seat Time for PC. 5%  5%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 147
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 Post subject: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:04 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:05 am 
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I say 6-2 because I won't stop believing. Hell, I believe 7-1 is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:09 am 
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We could be 8-0 or 1-7 right now. We play a style of football wrought with mistakes from any and every direction in any given game. We rely too much on dramatic and fortunate endings to expect to go 6-2 from here on out. It's possible, sure. And so, I will hope for it. But I'm not going to expect us to suddenly begin to take control of games and if that doesn't happen 6-2 or better from here on out is a pipe dream.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:10 am 
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I think 9-7 is most realistic. That's giving them plenty of respect. But based on what I've seen on the road this year, I just can't see more than that.

Actually, scratch that. 8-8 is most realistic IMO. I hate to say it, but there she be.

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Last edited by Aros on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:10 am 
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I cannot stop believing. 10-6. Finish strong at 6-2 one way or another. Need a win this week to hold a good tie breaker should the Vikings finish 10-6 as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:17 am 
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I'm going to go 9-7. With the trends of our opponents, combined with our trends, we should win 5 more games.

Unfortunately, we have some bad trends that we're not breaking, and it's getting more and more evident as teams get more film on us, while our offense seems to be trending upwards.

I don't have a lot of hope for the playoffs, but I really kinda gave up hope for that when we started a rookie QB. Not saying it's impossible, but it's historically improbable.

NEXT year, we're going to be the team to beat if our drafts follow the last few in success rate, and we manage to plug some holes (WR, OL).


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:21 am 
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I continue to be befuddled by this team. I think we could end up anywhere between 8-8 and 12-4, and honestly can't say which is more possible. I'm sticking with 10-6 for now. Not sure about the wild card...beating Minnesota would be a big step towards that Wild Card though

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:22 am 
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Still calling 10-6.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:29 am 
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8 and 8.

Next year is put up or shut up.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:29 am 
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With the way our offense is improving - I'm right on the 10-6/9-7 line of demarcation. That's *IF* they unf*ck this 3rd down defense garbage ASAP.

I hate each of our remaining road games (Miami is pretty good and we always seem to struggle their; Chicago w/ Cutler is not going to be the Chicago w/ Hanie we munched on last season; all the way across the country and into ANOTHER country for Buffalo, although at least it's a 4pm EDT start).

I think we go 4-1 in our five remaining home games and pull out a win on the road. I think I just talked myself into 9-7.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:35 am 
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I like 10-6

But i also feel like this could be, (what we will look back on as), a very slow start, and this Sunday we catch fire!


I dont think we need to get to 12-4 to win the division either.

Really are the 9ers going 7-2 from here on out?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:38 am 
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10 and 6... it's do or die time, i think the coaching staff and players know it's crunch time, we are either going to get a heck of a lot better and pull out these winnable games or it's next year time.... 6 and 2 rest of the way out... i can feel it...if not oh well, go mariners!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:40 am 
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That's what I'm thinking.....9-7 (and what I voted for). The pessimistic side of me is thinking 8-8 since we can't really say the ball hasn't bounced our way our share of times like it seems to most years, AND the optimistic of me is thinking 10-6, so that's were my guess is coming from (in the middle of the two). 8-8 is by NO POSSIBLE FRIGGIN WAY good enough. No friggin Mora-esque "our record is better than last year" (by only one win) BS. It's not good enough. Mediocrity is not even close to being good enough.

Why does it always happen? We finally improve on the O side of things and then (of course!) our D shits the bed. The life of a Seahawks fan. It really sucks sometimes.

Ah crap. I suppose a young, inexperienced team is expected to be inconsistent, but it really gets discouraging at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:44 am 
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10-6 or 9-7 depending on how those 49ers and Miami games go.

I say:
Vikes W
Jets W
@Fins W (but I don't feel good with saying this is a W)
@Bears L
Cards W
@Bills W
49ers L (This one is 50/50 since I think the Hawks can win this game)
Rams W

That's 6-2 to finish the year and I think 9 or 10 wins with some tie breakers will give the Seahawks a shot at the playoffs. I also think having 5 of the final 8 games at home will be a big factor. I also think playing the Fins and Bills on the road will be tough (for this team) but I think they are both winnable games (due in large part to both having lower end QB's that the defense can push around a bit).


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:49 am 
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I see this right now as an 8-8 or 9-7 team after the Lions game (which I thought we would win when I predicted 9-7 or 10-6).

So I voted 9-7 just to stay positive.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:51 am 
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I voted for 10-6. I'm predicting an undefeated home campaign and 1 win on the road out of the 3 remaining.

I think all 3 road games are winable. But the defense needs to get it together and start forcing more turnovers. That's what really saved us the last half of last year. We were able to create alot of turnovers, so far this year we haven't been so lucky/fortunate.

If we are able to win 10 games this year- regardless if we make the playoffs than it will have been a successful year, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:51 am 
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Aros wrote:
I think 9-7 is most realistic. That's giving them plenty of respect. But based on what I've seen on the road this year, I just can't see more than that.

Actually, scratch that. 8-8 is most realistic IMO. I hate to say it, but there she be.



This is what I say, if you step back and look at it without being a fan this is what you get.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:57 am 
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The two games that aren't "should win" are Chicago and SF. SF we can beat but they are a better team until we prove otherwise, imo. And, I can't very well pick us to win 3 of 3 on the road, so I went with 5-3 to finish out.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:57 am 
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I am going to make a bold prediction. 11-5. Further, the one remaining loss will NOT be Chicago like we all predict.

It will be either buffalo or Miami.

Never predicted before, so if this is wrong I probably never will again :)


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:02 am 
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I'm losing my optimism so I don't even want to say what I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:17 am 
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I guess there's something I'm forgetting about here (I'm down today due to personal issues as well as coming off a real disappointing loss). PC's teams historically finish well, ie much better in the 2nd half of the season....at least since he's been with the Hawks (have to ask our resident Pete Carroll expert sc85sis to see if that was a trend as well prior to him coming here : )

I guess that's a bit of optimism to grab at. Something that I think is quantifiable and tangible.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:26 am 
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I put 8-8 for this season. It's where I have been ever since PC made the decision to start Wilson for this year. While I initially felt this was a mistake and Flynn should have been the guy this year it's now a moot point. He is starting to progress some but we still have too many issues with our passing game to expect anything better.

In addition I really didn't like our defensive effort this last game, and hope they make changes for the second half of the season.

But really an 8-8 season, with a one game variable (7-9 to 9-7) is realistic. No playoffs this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:32 am 
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I'll say 9-7.. losses to Chicago, Buffalo and San Francisco.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:43 am 
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Since every game has gone down to the wire, we can expect 4-4 the rest of the way. But since 5 of 8 are at home, I’ll predict 5-3, putting us at 9-7 and missing the play offs. So while everyone’s “chillin” and touting moral victories, I’ll be rooting for the AFC at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Rooting for the AFC? Meaning so whoever goes into the playoffs instead of us get beat?

Not sure what you meant (and not saying there's anything wrong with that either I guess).

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:12 pm 
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From what I have seen on the road, I really don't see how we win anymore on the road this year and we will probably lose to the Niners at home, so I see a disappointing 8-8.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:23 pm 
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I have to agree about missing the playoffs. I really concurred with people thinking that the last time was the wait-and-see, this-is-it moment of the season. To be realistic about optimism, about having truly turned the corner and showing that the team is firing on most of our cylinders, we HAD to win that game. A tough game, a game against a better-than-their-record, playing-with-a-chip, their-season-depends-on-this home team that still almost lost...........BUT still a game that probably forecast the remainder of the season.

I dunno. Seems like I'm bi-polar today. But it feels like we'll win 9 games and that's not enough in the currently excellent NFC.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:27 pm 
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gargantual wrote:
Rooting for the AFC? Meaning so whoever goes into the playoffs instead of us get beat?

Not sure what you meant (and not saying there's anything wrong with that either I guess).


I'm saying we need all these teams to lose, preferably to AFC teams to have a shot for the Wildcard.

1
Atlanta
South 7-0-0
2
Chicago
North 6-1-0
3
N.Y. Giants
East 6-2-0
4
San Francisco
West 5-2-0
5
Minnesota
North 5-3-0
6
Green Bay
North 5-3-0
7
Arizona
West 4-3-0


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Ahhh....get it now!

My brain ain't working right today. We'd be playing all NFC teams throughout the playoffs.


Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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Last edited by gargantual on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Minn - Win (Dominating win similar to Dal game)
NYJ - Loss (*trap game*)
@Mia - Win (Wilson magic in the 4th)
@Chi - Loss (worst loss of the year)
Ariz - Win (Revenge)
@Buf - Win (Defnese wins it)
SF - Win (by a FG)
STL - Win (Dominating win for momentum into the playoffs)

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:47 pm 
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NFC Playoffs
#1 ATL 14-2 (L - @ NO, @ TB)
#2 CHI 12-4 (L - HOU, @ SF, @ DET)
#3 NYG 12-4 (L - @ ATL, @ BAL)
#4 SF 11-5 (L - @ NO, @ NE, @ SEA)
#5 SEA 10-6 (L - NYJ, @ Chi)
#6 GB 10-6 (L @ NYG, @ CHI, @ MIN)

#7 MIN 9-7
#8 PHI 9-7
#9 DAL 8-8
#10 TB 8-8

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:53 pm 
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8-8 and yet another year of Seahawks' medicority. As Dom said, that leaves next year as put up or shut up time. Considering the history of this franchise, it could be very quiet.


By the way Wenhawk ^^^^ the Beagles at 9-7? Um, very unlikely IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Minn - Win
NYJ - Win
@Mia - Loss
@Chi - Loss
Ariz - Win
@Buf - Loss
SF - Win*
STL - Win

9-7

* Could easily be a sweep by the 49ers, even though I have it as a W. That game will determine if we have a winning record or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:51 pm 
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I went with 10-6. Pete is all about "finishing strong" and it's a great time to do that. Wilson's newfound pocket presence and red-zone efficiency should prove to be propulsive benchmarks for this offense. We'll be able to outscore NFC West offenses at home that we couldn't on the road with a young offense, and our defense won't have to deal with another scoring machine like Tom Brady or Matt Stafford this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:19 pm 
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8-8..Pete keeps his job with the rookie QB excuse ( though it does make sense )

Next year 10+ wins or coaches should be fired.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:36 pm 
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You guys are all wusses :D!

This is how it's going down

vs. MIN - 28-10
vs. NYJ - 24-6
@ MIA - 17-16
@ CHI - 31-10
vs. ARI - 21-17
@ BUF - 14-3
vs. SF - 28-6
vs. STL - 21-20

Finish the season 12-4.

BELIEVE

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Let me explain to you why Pete Carroll is a great damned coach,
Pete knows what is happening to his team, We can go over all the X's and O's but what was apparent from the physical signs of that defense was that they are starting to lose focus. All the talks about getting out-schemed, all the chippy attitude that has worked in the past being replaced by lagish running to the sidelines and miscommunication on the field. These guys are showing the early (but fixable) signs of "checking out". This is the drawbacks of having a very young team but like i said it is fixable and further still i think this week Pete fixes it. I think it's safe to say i have been one of the most negative people on this board since Sundays loss but i think we can all agree that 4-4 -- while no where near this teams shown potential-- is about where we expected to be going through that charge of the light brigade of a first half schedule. I feel this has compounded by the fact that Detroit shifted from a team we would have trouble with to a team we were supposed to beat along the course of their season. We are not in a good position to win playoff contention in our current situation.


but did you guys forget who these guys are?

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I'm reminded of that scene from Kill Bill Vol II when Kiddo is sitting there finally facing off with Bill after going through utter hell to get there. Bill lets out the now classic line "You didn't think it would be that easy did you?" to which Kiddo responds something to the effect of "Yeah... I sorta did."

These are the freaking DRAMA KINGS, they be like that sometimes. I predict Pete Carroll is gonna put them on a 300 style high and have them go on a run the table charge.


12 - 4

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Also doesn't hurt that WT3 will be back to fill up our one major weakness on defense so.....

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:32 pm 
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I think you're wrong Todd, and I'm not the rose-colored glasses type, as you know. I know we've looked pedestrian at best the last couple road games, but all were easily winnable if we make a single play or two. I know that our defense is feeling embarrassed after that lousy showing in Detroit (even though it was against the #4 offense), after all the accolades they've received this season. Russell Wilson has improved noticably every week, and I think our Defense is gonna regain its confidence this weekend against the Vikes. If we lose, at home against the Vikes, then I will acquiesce to your interpretation of our team. But if we win... Especially if it's a convincing win, then I say this season is not dead by a long shot, contrary to your 8-8 prediction. If we lose at home this Sunday? This season is probably close to dead... Ain't gonna happen though! Damnit!

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
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MontanaHawk05 wrote:
I went with 10-6. Pete is all about "finishing strong" and it's a great time to do that. Wilson's newfound pocket presence and red-zone efficiency should prove to be propulsive benchmarks for this offense. We'll be able to outscore NFC West offenses at home that we couldn't on the road with a young offense, and our defense won't have to deal with another scoring machine like Tom Brady or Matt Stafford this year.



:th2thumbs:

Finally some sense in this thread. Reading through here, you'd think we got blown out horribly by Detroit. We went down to the wire with these guys, and it seemed we tried to rock the Tampa 2 and we are at our best in man, everyone knows that.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:45 pm 
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I say 9-7. Which I think is respectable and reasonable given where the team is in it's development. Is it what we as fans want? No. But it's not some sort of abomination. I know many fans have "WIN NOW OR ELSE! I'VE BEEN A FAN FOREVER AND AM SICK OF THIS!" mentalities. But that crap doesn't matter to Pete or these young players learning to play in this league and with one another. That crap is for drunk fans screaming at their dogs or calling into sports radio yelling that they want Charlie Whitehurst to start because it's simply something different. We have one of the youngest teams in the entire league and a rookie qb learning the league and his position at this level. If your introductory phase with such a team is 9-7, and you have every reason to believe they'll improve upon what they've learned, and that the team can fill some of the gaps that do in fact remain next offseason. I don't see how fans can see that as a failure. Hell, I don't ever see 8-8 as one either. 7-9 would be disappointing. But there would still be reason to be more optimistic heading into next season, having found your qb, your young team having gained valuable experience and having less holes to fill.

And as for the "Hot seat time for PC" comment, I couldnt disagree more. Even with 7-9. Pete has built this team from the ground up. He didnt inheret it like Harbaugh did in SF. This is HIS team, and its heading in the right direction. Just because you dont like 7-9 seasons to start the regime, doesnt mean you fire the guy who oversees the entire organization. Doing so would pretty much mean starting over from scratch. Seeing as how youd be bring in a new guy who wants to do things his way. This defense is built for Pete, and Pete only. Good luck fitting this personnel into another scheme. Same goes for your qb. You bring in a new regime, what are the odds they are cool with a qb of Wilson's stature? We've seen just how many people in the league and media simply do not believe he can be successful. Decent chance your new HC/GM thinks similarly. Firing Pete now would be idiotic, IMO. Had we done the same after Holmgren's first 4 seasons, (9-7, 6-10, 9-7, 7-9), all you "I've waited too damn long!" fans would never have gone to the damn Super Bowl.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:18 pm 
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I think 10-6 will be it. I still have a lot of faith in the offense continuing to grow and the defense is gonna be fine in my opinion. We don't play as many Qb's capable of murdering us done the stretch. I mean Jay Cutler is the best QB we face and I'd love to face him in a game where we force him to play dink and dunk. We get SF at home and I still believe we are capable of winning games in the road just fine. We will probably manage to lose 2 close ones, even if I want to say 7-1 that's just not to reasonable. 9-7 is the absolute worst I see.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:58 pm 
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As many have said, this is a completely different team at home ... and 5 of our final 8 games are at home. Since the beginning of the Pete Carroll Era, the Seahawks are 13-7 at home. Given the huge turnover in personnel since 2010, that's a pretty impressive record. This is how I see the schedule shaking down ...

Vikings (Win)
Jets (Win)
Bears (Loss)
Cardinals (Win)
49ers (Win)
Rams (Win)

And I see us going 1-1 with the Bills and Dolphins (not sure which one we beat, but will get one of them).

I see 10-6 and a Wildcard bid very much in play for this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:09 pm 
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After listening to Pete in his Post Game Pressor, I can hear some real determination "kicking in". I'm not sure why it takes so long for Pete's team to "get it in gear" the last couple of seasons.....but it does. If they cannot hit "second gear" against the Vikings this Sunday, then we can "kiss our ass goodbye" for a Playoff spot. Lately, it appears that the Offense and Defense are going in two opposite directions. However, if .....and when, all three aspects of this team "kick in" simultaneously, we can beat the Niners at Home on December 16th.

Picking a final win scenerio? This team's temperment is too fragile right now to even make such a prediction. They seem to play like a Wall Street stock chart. Should they beat the Viks as well as the Dolphins, they have a "chance" at Post Season play. If they can go into Chicago and win there, I'd say that their mental toughness begins to "steamroll" their final games of the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:45 pm 
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I think 9-7 feels most likely based on having +2 home games in the last 8. This team kind of feels like a 9-7 team too. Our team can compete with the best, but it can lose to bad teams too. The fact that our second half schedule is easier is less comforting as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm 
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I firmly believe this team is capable of 10-6 and even 11-5. I remember watching the mock game in training camp, at the very tail end of this mock game, and I saw Wilson managing the game at the 2 minute mark and was impressed with his composure even then... along with his flashes of brilliance. Its mid season and Wilson looks like he is emerging with very good familiarity of the people playing around him, including the OL, and it really seems like the whole offense is starting to approach the moment when it all clicks together into a powerhouse offense.

If the Hawks start taking solid leads in games, I think the close margins will disappear. And I fully expect the niners to get more then beat at home because Wilson will be seeing them for a second time, the Rams and the Cards don't really seem like they will have much more than the heart teams play other divisional teams with.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll: After 8 Games, How Do The Hawks Finish?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:59 pm 
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12-4


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