Russell Wilson VS Every Single Rookie Starter of Past 20 Yrs

amill87

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Throwdown":p6ptlwm7 said:
Now Flynn might be better than Rodgers? I done heard it all.

You are better than that. I did not say Flynn is better than Rodgers. Mearly pointed out what stats show you. Do not try to belittle your opposition by making bold inaccurate statements.


theENGLISHseahawk":p6ptlwm7 said:
Who are the people 'clinging' to that? Not one person to my knowledge has argued there is 'no way' Flynn could do better. He might do better, he might not. What most people argue is - the coaches made this decision based on judgements we could never hope to make. And the coaches had no agenda, because THEY signed Flynn in the first place. They judged Wilson was the better choice.

And most people are happy to roll with that without the weekly sky-is-falling bitch-fest just because a rookie QB is going to have growing pains.

You talk about people being irrational, yet there's nothing more irrational than clinging to one games worth of evidence to draw a conclusion. A game that has absolutely zero relevance to Flynn's situation in Seattle. He lost the job, thems the facts. Nobody is ignoring flaws within Wilson's game, they are embraced. Some people don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water because a rookie QB has had a rocky road early in his career. Perhaps - just maybe - there's a long term benefit to getting the growing pains out of the way? That's not settling for mediocrity, that's striving for the long term. It could easily be argued that settling for mediocrity is going with the former 7th round pick who's been a back up virtually his entire career (college and NFL) who couldn't beat out a third round rookie for the gig in Seattle. The same guy who after that wonderful display against Detroit, generated a free agent market that can be kindly referred to as 'lukewarm' at best. Who knows what he'd be doing right now if Seattle hadn't signed him? He might be back in Green Bay, still being a backup.


So clinging to 5 games of subpar QB play is rational? You claim Flynn has too small a sample size, so does Wilson.

Funny that you seemed to skip my first post in this thread because I addressed the whole "why did noone sign Flynn" thing. Why did no-one draft Wilson before the third round if he was so good? The argument goes both ways.

Also you may be one to blindly follow every decision the coaches make and agree with them but I do not. Almost every week, the fans are calling for Bevell's head yet we are supposed to trust him when he likely wanted Wilson to start as well? What about Carroll? Is he some kind of QB guru? Or can he actually get a QB worth a damn without having the best prospects in the country knocking down his door?
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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amill87":3imbg6su said:
So clinging to 5 games of subpar QB play is rational? You claim Flynn has too small a sample size, so does Wilson.

Funny that you seemed to skip my first post in this thread because I addressed the whole "why did noone sign Flynn" thing. Why did no-one draft Wilson before the third round if he was so good? The argument goes both ways.

Also you may be one to blindly follow every decision the coaches make and agree with them but I do not. Almost every week, the fans are calling for Bevell's head yet we are supposed to trust him when he likely wanted Wilson to start as well? What about Carroll? Is he some kind of QB guru? Or can he actually get a QB worth a damn without having the best prospects in the country knocking down his door?


What am I clinging to from those five games? Have I used anything from those five games in my argument? Have you even read what I just wrote?

This is the problem with your 'argument'. First of all, you make spurious claims like, "People cling to the line of reasoning that there is no way Flynn could do better" yet when challenged as to who has actually made this opinion (nobody has) you just ignore it. You try and argue people are irrational for backing a coaching decision which appears to be a lot more educated than either you or I could ever hope to make visiting an internet chat forum. You argue people are looking beyond Wilson's flaws (they aren't, in fact I've written an entire article on them) and are 'settling for mediocrity'... when actually people are just willing to let this play out, back the team and see if a rookie quarterback can show progress over the course of the season. That to me is the very definition of a rational approach.

Nobody is saying YOU should blindly follow the coach's logic, but you better have some good evidence to back it up. No offense, but your own personal judgement is miniscule compared to the analysis made by an entire coaching staff who had zero agenda having both signed Flynn and drafted Wilson. I'm not challenging anything here - I would've supported PC's choice whether Flynn or Wilson started the year. So it's not up to me to provide any kind of 'evidence' to back up my position as humble fan.

As for 'why didn't anyone draft Wilson earlier' - well isn't it obvious? He's a 5-10 quarterback and conventional wisdom says he's unlikely to succeed. There have been a number of stigma's around the league, some have stuck - others have been disproved. Shorter QB's have worked in the league but most don't get a chance and that is understandable. That is why Wilson lasted until the third. There's no mystery why he lasted until he did in the draft.

Flynn's situation is different because despite having that big game against Detroit in an actual NFL game, without the height restrictions, with the whole 'Green Bay' schtick - his market was cold as ice in free agency. There's an obvious distinction why Wilson lasted until the third. So what was the issue with Flynn? Is it - just maybe - he isn't as good as some people hoped?
 

SalishHawkFan

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bestfightstory":32t4f33y said:
Wow! This guy really has Seahawks fans figured out!! Where have you been all our lives?

And how tall are you?

Seriously, the OP knows how to build a strawman argument.

The REAL bone of contention isn't whether Wilson has potential. Haven't heard a single fan say he doesn't. The bone of contention is whether Flynn would give the Seahawks a better chance to win NOW.

The key comparison isn't every rookie QB who started day one for the previous 20 years. Even if Wilson ranked at the top of that list it wouldn't matter. The key comparison is how does Wilson's first five games compare to TJacks first five last year. Last season the Hawks pass pro was atrocious. Way worse than this year. This years crew has given up 10 sacks so far. Not great. Last years gave up 10 sacks IN THE FIRST TWO GAMES. This year we have an excellent rushing attack. Last year at this time our ground game was tepid. 60 yards rushing per game less. This year, Golden Tate is finally getting it. He's become a pro. Last year, Golden Tate was still trying to get it. This year, we can pass to our TE's. Last year, our TE's were too busy with pass pro.

Yet despite all that, last season thru 5 games TJack had a higher QB rating and passed for 60 more yards per game and the Seahawks averaged more points per game than the first five games under Wilson.

It isn't even debatable. Despite Wilson's potential, he's a downgrade at QB over Tavaris Jackson RIGHT NOW. That isn't to say he won't improve beyond TJack.

The thing is, does ANYONE on here believe that Flynn isn't a better QB option that TJack? NO. Nobody thinks that for a minute. Which means it isn't even debatable that RIGHT NOW, Matt Flynn is the best QB on this team. He SHOULD be starting.

Steve Young sat on the bench in San Fran for four years because the best QB was starting. Aaron Rodgers, same thing.

The fact that Russell Wilson is the 6th best rookie QB to start day one in the last 20 years just goes to show how desperate most teams are that start their rookie QB's. Teams with better starting QB options simply do not start them, not even if their name is Rodgers or Young.
 

MontanaHawk05

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amill87":4j92tia9 said:
Wilson has yet to prove he can consistently step up in the pocket and beat the blitz with his arm, not his legs. Brees can do this, that is why he is so good.

Two responses. First, don't judge after five games.

Second of all, when you actually watch Brees, he's not really a stand-tall pocket passer. He spends many snaps sliding, shuffling, and frenetically skittering around behind the line of scrimmage looking for targets, exhibiting what everyone would call "happy feet" on most other quarterbacks. But it works for Brees.

People talk about "stepping up in the pocket", and they're right for some snaps (Wilson will have to do this at times), but in this case it sounds like taking a football platitude and assuming it applies to a QB that operates differently. Brees compensates for his height with liberal movement, creating lanes for himself with frequent shuffling that makes him look jittery and almost panicky if not for the epic touchdowns that result. He employs a much bigger pocket for himself than most QB's do, and Wilson is showing signs of figuring out his pocket too. That's how he'll succeed if he ever does.
 

MontanaHawk05

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SalishHawkFan":r2agkczo said:
It isn't even debatable. Despite Wilson's potential, he's a downgrade at QB over Tavaris Jackson RIGHT NOW. That isn't to say he won't improve beyond TJack.

By what standard do you keep concluding this? Wilson is miles ahead of T-Jack in every relevant category except yards per bloody game.
 

amill87

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@montana

Youre right. I was a bit too generic about wilsons pocket but he needs to learn how to evade and decide.

@english

Im sorry my friend but youre missing the point. The point is stats dont show everything. And there are tons of people who thonk flynn cant be better than wilson. Hell if that were true wouldnt everyone want flynn since it would make the team better
 

SalishHawkFan

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MontanaHawk05":cf86h9j7 said:
SalishHawkFan":cf86h9j7 said:
It isn't even debatable. Despite Wilson's potential, he's a downgrade at QB over Tavaris Jackson RIGHT NOW. That isn't to say he won't improve beyond TJack.

By what standard do you keep concluding this? Wilson is miles ahead of T-Jack in every relevant category except yards per bloody game.
Points per game being a pretty relevant category. And if you give this years team an extra 60 yards passing, they not only beat AZ, they probably don't have to win on a Hail Mary vs GB and maybe they pull it off vs the Rams.

Oh, and what relevant category did Wilson beat out TJack in at the first five game mark? I keep bringing it up, but no one gives any tangible evidence to refute it. Because they can't, it's irrefutable.
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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amill87":r68ieqby said:
@english

Im sorry my friend but youre missing the point. The point is stats dont show everything. And there are tons of people who thonk flynn cant be better than wilson. Hell if that were true wouldnt everyone want flynn since it would make the team better

That's your response? That I'm missing the point?

Deary me, what a weak as piss debate this is. You throw a bunch of stuff out there, hope it sticks, and when someone challenges you they're 'missing the point'. Good evening, sir.
 

amill87

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@montana

Youre right. I was a bit too generic about wilsons pocket but he needs to learn how to evade and decide.

@english

Im sorry my friend but youre missing the point. The point is stats dont show everything. And there are tons of people who thonk flynn cant be better than wilson. Hell if that were true wouldnt everyone want flynn since it would make the team better
 

scutterhawk

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JSeahawks":3pbhiw5s said:
Hawkadeus":3pbhiw5s said:
Sad that the boa guy feels the need to turn every thread into a joke. Sorry for bothering bringing facts and figures to the table. One would think it would stoke more conversation. Maybe I should focus more on developing schtick. Seems to be what plays on this site as Mr bestfightstory is proving.

Don't worry about the trolls. Thank you for the thoughtful post. Keep it up.
Yeah, no need to let someone who disagrees with the facts you provided get to you, because if you do, it will give him satisfaction knowing he has needled, and it worked.
He's wrong, and doesn't even know it.
 

MontanaHawk05

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SalishHawkFan":32o4pdmr said:
Points per game being a pretty relevant category. And if you give this years team an extra 60 yards passing, they not only beat AZ, they probably don't have to win on a Hail Mary vs GB and maybe they pull it off vs the Rams.

Oh, and what relevant category did Wilson beat out TJack in at the first five game mark? I keep bringing it up, but no one gives any tangible evidence to refute it. Because they can't, it's irrefutable.

To label Wilson a worse quarterback than Tarvaris Jackson because he fell 60 passing yards short of making his 3-2 team 5-0 is ludicrous and smells of reaching, not analysis. Same with sticking to the first five games, which is convenient for your argument but hardly an adequate sample size or fair for a rookie QB.

To address your actual point, T-Jack averaged 6.0 ppg last year. Wilson is on track for the exact same number.

T-Jack had a .73 TD-turnover ratio last year. Wilson is at .71 right now.

T-Jack had a 60% completion rate last year. Wilson is at 63.2%.

T-Jack got sacked 2.8 times last year (18 times by Week 5). Wilson's at 2.0 (10 sacks), and don't tell me that pass protection has suddenly improved. We all know how inconsistent this line has been this year except for Unger. Our right side is awful.

T-Jack has Wilson's YPA beat by about 0.4, his sack yardage beat by about 1.0, and his YPG beat by about 43 yards (T-Jack had a whopping 206 YPG), all of which fall under the "gee, big deal" category and can be easily explained away with the coaching decisions. T-Jack also stuck religiously to the right side of the field, threw his receivers into collisions (Baldwin is still recovering from T-Jack), and stood in the pocket like a statue waiting to get sacked with the ball. Wilson does none of this. I'm really failing to see the big downgrade here.
 

SalishHawkFan

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zhawk":34wmo5r1 said:
how do you like him now? :stirthepot:
I think he turned a huge and important corner today. It's his job to lose. He proved he's a winner. It helped that they finally seemed to take the training wheels off.
 

lukerguy

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I thought this thread had a comparison chart. I'm trying to dig that one up, anyone remember which thread it was in?

It was a list of all of the rookies and had their first 5 game stats.
 

volsunghawk

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SalishHawkFan":2gtqh1yh said:
MontanaHawk05":2gtqh1yh said:
SalishHawkFan":2gtqh1yh said:
It isn't even debatable. Despite Wilson's potential, he's a downgrade at QB over Tavaris Jackson RIGHT NOW. That isn't to say he won't improve beyond TJack.

By what standard do you keep concluding this? Wilson is miles ahead of T-Jack in every relevant category except yards per bloody game.
Points per game being a pretty relevant category. And if you give this years team an extra 60 yards passing, they not only beat AZ, they probably don't have to win on a Hail Mary vs GB and maybe they pull it off vs the Rams.

Oh, and what relevant category did Wilson beat out TJack in at the first five game mark? I keep bringing it up, but no one gives any tangible evidence to refute it. Because they can't, it's irrefutable.

Pssst. I pointed out the flaws in your "60 more yards first 5 games" argument a couple of different times in different threads. You just chose not to acknowledge it.
 
OP
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Hawkadeus

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I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

Come on people. Team over ego. We're all Seattle Seahawks fans!
 

SharkHawk

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I read the argument several times on this page that Wilson lasted until the 3rd, so he must have some inherent flaw. This argument is then used to justify the reasoning for starting Flynn. So to those who keep bringing this up... have you bothered to consider what round Flynn was drafted in? Hint..... it was NOT the third round. Care to explain why?
 

MysterMatt

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What are/were the QBs on the list's red zone rankings/effectiveness? 3rd downs? The comparisons in the list don't really address the points of a lot of the people who haven't been happy with Wilson and the OP appears to ignore that. I'm not, nor have I been, beating the drum for Flynn, but the way some people categorize those who think he is the better choice for this season at least as midget haters and so on are every bit as lame. To be honest, the conclusions you can reach using the OP's little list are minimal. In the meantime, I'm hoping Wilson matures into s legit NFL starter.
 

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