Hello all....first time poster. I drift around on a lot of different Seahawk forums and I am surprised at the impatience of some fan posts I have seen. It seems like some people expect the team to be built of 22 pro-bowlers and future HOF candidates. The hatred I have seen towards PC is unbelievable.

We have one of the best defenses Seattle has ever had. The running game is solid. Our rookie QB is having issues, but he really hasn't had a bad game yet....at least not compare to the Seahawks normal fare at QB of late. We have been a play or two from being 5-0 this season after playing some very tough teams.

Personally, if we go 8-8 this season, but we can progress to the point that we are a very strong team next year and years to come, I will be very happy.

Sorry for being such a grump on my first post, but the "instant gratification" attitude is really wearing thin.

Edit: Now that I have had a little time to go through some of the thread, I would also like to apologize of starting what appears to be the 1000th thread of saying the same thing. It appears there has been a number of newbees on the site lately that have starter similar threads.

What unbearable hatred toward Pete are you talking about? I must have missed it. I have seen Bevell hatred but not for Caroll.

Always best to read the forum a bit before posting and you appear to be one of the few that's noticed that.

Welcome to Seahawks.net, glad to have you.

_________________

The SuperB owl ladys have left the building with our thanks.

Instant gratification? We have a team that is potentially better than 8-8 and we're damn tired of being happy with 8-8. I don't know what you're really talking about, though. Attitude around here has been pretty good if you consider how it was in 2009.

_________________

Please don't get me wrong, I really wasn't complaining about any posts from this site specifically. It is just a general feel from visiting multiple Seahawks sites. Over at the Times, there are about a dozen "fans" that seem like they are already prepared to break out the tar and feathers for PC.....but then again, it IS the Times forum. At just about every site, there has been at least one or two that were ready to declare Wilson a bust after the first game.

This team has been rebuilding the day PC and JS came onboard. It is as if a lot of fans out there do not understand the accomplishment that have been made is a short time towards that rebuilding.

To ParisPC07: Would you be happy with a 8-8 season this year if it would guarantee at least 10-win seasons for the next 10 years? Of course nobody can guarantee that, but I don't think PC/JS are building to win the SB as soon as possible, I think they are building for a dynasty. Call me a homer, but I think it would be nice to have a Seahawk dynasty.

Honestly, I only thought this was an 8 win team at the least, 10 if everything went right no matter which QB we have going right now.

But I don't know where it comes from, but its a very vocal minority IMO that are being impatient. To me, to come as far as we have its a damn near miracle, this team in 2009 had NO HOPE AT ALL!

_________________

3elieve

This place would have been unbearable if we had lost last Sunday Throw, and I think that the OP was stating was was obvious in the past week before that game.

And by the way......

_________________

It has been said.. year 3 of a 4 year complete/total/burn it to the ground/start from scratch/ rebuild... i am totally with the OP.

Russell Wilson will be the truth.. He will write a book.. It will be read in every home in Seattle.. And it will be good.

I would've taken the longest hiatus EVER

_________________

3elieve

I keep hearing this, and not sure what the logic is behind it. We're also a play or two from being 1-4, and if not for a horrific replacement ref call, 2-3.

This is the NFL, just about EVERY game comes down to a play, or a drive to decide the winner and loser. That's why it's hard to support a rookie QB who's going to struggle in his first year with these very important plays and drives.

_________________
If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.

Because this team and seattle sports in general have been mired in continual mediocrity for years now. Many of us feel like the Hawks have built a super bowl caliber defense and run game, and yet, the terrible passing game would, if the season ended now, keep this otherwise superbowl caliber team from even making the playoffs. That is how bad the passing game has been. With even a decent passing game, this team is 5-0. Instead, it is last place in a very good division.

I personally do not want to see a season where the rest of the team is so freakin awesome be wasted while we wait and see if a 5'10" rookie 3rd rounder can beat the odds. Admittedly, no one knows if Flynn would do better, but I would want to at least see what he can do considering how RW3 has played.

That said, I don't think many of the anti-wilson crowd hate PC or JS. I think they are great. They have built a great team except for in one area. But I will say that they need to both prove that they understand the QB position and can get a guy in here who can play, or they will run themselves out of town, because so far their decisions there have not been impressive.

Well, compared to being down 21+ points near the end of the game, I would say we have improved in this area. Granted, most if not all of the credit can go to the defense for keeping us in the game.

In 2008, we lost 7 games by 10 points or more.
In 2009, we lost 9 games by 10 points or more.
In 2010, again, we lost 9 games by 10 points or more.
In 2011, we only lost 4 games by 10 points or more.

Yes, the offense needs to be more productive to win those close games, but the fact that they are close is a big step in the right direction.

EDIT: BTW, I do not agree that the call in the GB game was "horrific". It was a reasonable call given the situation.

Here is the deal. This team is very young. We should be good for years to come.

But in this pushbutton world, people "want it now". Unfortunately this is a game and not a keyboard.

_________________

And you don't think that it takes time (or are willing to allow for) a rookie QB time to develop? What are our other options? You mentioned you would like to see what Flynn could do. Are you willing to accept QB play at the level we had in game 1 by going with Flynn? Starting over?

I hear people complaining about the QB play and I don't see the issue other then getting the ball into the end zone. Wilson has 6 INTs, but most of those can't really be attributed to Wilson. Most of them have just been bad luck. He is moving the ball and has a decent completion percentage.....even with his throw aways. His accuracy and decision making appears to be good.....at least to the point where the coaches can work with it.

So, what other QB options did or do the Seahawks have. Sure, Flynn might be an improvement, or he be worse then Wilson in the long run.....basically, he is nothing more then a rookie with more bench time under his belt.

We see things much the same way.

There are only a handfull of the same posters on .net that are always saying negative things about PC and RW. Basically the general poster here are big PC fans and most of the non emotional ones understand the RW decision and where the team is going.

_________________
Seahawks + PC/JS + Russell Wilson = Superbowl XLVIII +

Its a splint vs a cast really.. Splint is going to be better in the short term, but a cast fixes it for the long haul. Would much rather be sitting here for the next 10 years with a franchise QB then to have a quick fix and go back into a revolving door offense until we get lucky.

That is good to hear. I can understand the "emotions" and the frustrations. I have been frustrated as well, especially after the Rams game. However, I have been a fan of the Seahawks ever since they became a franchise and this team is one of the best I have ever seen. They might not even make the play-offs this season, especially given how the Division is shaping up, but I would expect to see a solid SB run within the next couple of seasons.

There is no guarantee that Marshawn Lynch will continue to play like this for years to come. We all know how sharp the decline is for feature RBs. There is no guarantee that this defense will always play like this or that the salary cap will allow all the players to be kept when they are due for their second contracts.

Just like there is no guarantee that Matt Flynn would do better than what RW3 has done. My point is that this year, the passing game thus far is keeping an otherwise superbowl caliber team out of the playoffs. The team went out and spent money to get Flynn. Flynn has a 480 yard and 6 TD game in the regular season under his belt. Because the passing game has struggled, I would like to see what Flynn can do. If he also struggles? Fine, bench him and play whoever. Having a 5'10" 3rd round rookie QB miss a few starts is not going to kill him though.

I want this team to do everything it can to win now because it can win now, and there is no guarantee of anything down the road. In my opinion, it is asinine to just assume that we will always have the #1 defense and one of the best running games every year going forward. Win now while you know you can.

Why are all the people that disagree with you labeled "emotional" or "negative?"

This is a forum, it's full of differing opinions. Just because some of us are critical, doesn't mean we aren't using logic to back up our opinions. As in until our passing offense no longer sucks ass, we're entitled to be critical of Wilson and PC's decision to start him.

_________________
If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.

Impatience? Instant gratification? Maybe know your audience, dude. You may be content with 8-8. Some of us have supported this team without missing a season, for every year of the franchise's existence. I want to win. And I have no respect for fans who are 'okay' with 8 losses and mediocrity.

To each their own but we are of a different breed.

_________________
"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk
"BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)

Please don't imply things out of context. I said I would be happy with being 8-8 IF it was working towards being a winning dynasty for years to come. If Wilson was a 3-4 year starting vet, then NO, I would not be happy with being 8-8 this season.

I also want to see the Seahawks win.....and, I also have been a year-to-year fan ever since the franchise was established.

To the OP: there are several threads you could have squatted and done this in. Take a moment to scan even the first page of the Hawks forum.

+1 on NO hate of PC or RW here (by anyone here I believe). I've stated a raised brow in Pete's direction on the RW start decision, but "hate" towards either that is not.
Your thread is full of misinformation, get with the program is all I can suggest.

I think this is a dangerous mindset. There are no guarantees in the NFL, too many variables to assume we'll be good for years to come.

- injuries
- player changes every year
- performance fluctuations
- coaching continuity

The NFL is a win now league, you HAVE to put your best players on the field every single week. We don't know if the defense will be this good next year. We don't know if key players will leave via free agency. We don't know if the injury bug will jump up and bit us next year. We don't know if key players will be as good in future years as they are this year.

To say "let's let Wilson develop to the detriment of this year in hopes that he's really good in future years" is good way for people to lose their jobs if things don't work out.

_________________
If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.

I don't understand why some don't want to even see if Flynn could be the real deal. If you want to talk pipe dreams ir is far less likely that Wilson will become good enough in time for the playoffs to be effective than it is that Flynn could be what this team needs to be elite and it's not like he is going anywhere for the next four years minimum.

Next year will be the last year of many of our key players contracts. We won't likely keep them all so we could easily regress. We could possibly be missing our window right now.

Does anyone believe we have a legitimate shot at beating the Niners with our offense right now? The Niners are not the Panthers. We could get blown out. Sure Flynn might not change that but he just might also. You just don't know unless you try and Wilson will get better on or off the field. If you believe he won't then you are not being honest.

_________________
The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.

A lot of the disagreement seems to stem from a fundamental difference of opinions in how QBs develop.

Some folks think QBs develop best on the bench.

These people are usually calling for Flynn. They think that his 4 years of bench sitting give him a veteran understanding of the game that will result in immediate improvement at the QB position. And they also believe that Wilson will develop by sitting. It's a best-case situation for them to have Flynn start and Wilson sit and learn.

Others folks think QBs need playing time to develop.

These people are usually insistent on sticking with Wilson as the starter. Wilson has more actual game experience at the college and pro levels now, and they feel that sitting him is wasting time. Additionally, they don't believe that Flynn's time on the bench means he is more prepared to lead a pro offense.

I fall into the second camp, and I don't think you have to look any further than our own Matt Hasselbeck for evidence. He sat for two years in the same Green Bay QB factory that Flynn hails from, and he still stunk it up in his first season as a starter. Only through playing time did he develop into the guy who led us to the SB.

_________________


Super Bowl XLVIII Champions

Also from the same QB factory came a QB named Aaron Rodgers, who was the MVP last year, and had no growing pains from holding a clipboard for years.

I have no problems with a starting a rookie, as long as said rookie is better equipped to run the offense than the other QB's on the roster. Those of us in the Flynn camp don't think Wilson is there yet, and is actually hurting our chances at making the playoffs in 2012.

_________________
If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.

Also, Aaron Brooks. Notice what happens when that backup QB leaves the QB factory and goes elsewhere, as opposed to being a 1st round draft choice who isn't sitting to develop, but instead just waiting out a HOFer's last years.

I don't think Wilson is immune to rookie struggles, but I don't think that Flynn is immune from struggling with a new team and unfamiliar supporting cast, either. And I think Wilson's talent dwarfs (no pun intended) Flynn's. It's a sure thing that his work ethic does. In other words, I think Wilson and Flynn may be neck and neck when it comes to who the best QB is right now, but I believe that Wilson will improve faster than Flynn and deliver better results, and he must play to develop.

_________________


Super Bowl XLVIII Champions

I'd be banned today for throwing around F bombs in the main forum.

_________________
Tanzania¹² "ALERT THE LEGION!!!"

Unless you count being on a team that goes 6-10 as growing pains.

_________________
Super Bowl Champions XVLIII

I already apologizes for that. Please don't make me apologize again, I hate apologizing....just ask my wife.

Yes, I was a bad boy for posting before reading, but I was so excited to be a .net member.



I'm not sure what "misinformation" you are talking about. I thought I was clear that I wasn't necessarily talking about this forum. I was talking about Seahawk forums as a whole (and there are a lot of them). The hate for PC is there....believe me.

If people thought that way, NOBODY would every draft a rookie QB until there was no other choice. A rookie QB needs time to develop. Some of them can come right onto the field and preform very well, but most can't.

You said it better then I could.

Right most can't, so you agree with me. There's a reason that in the history of the league, only a handful of rookie QB's have performed well right out of college.

We can talk all day about upside and who gives us a better chance of winning in future years, but you'll never convince me that Wilson gives us the best chance to win now. This is evident by his poor passer rating, inability to score in the red zone and the Hawks #31 rank in passing.

_________________
If there is no Seahawk football in heaven, then we will never die.

Correct me if I am wrong RnH, but when some wanted to see what they had in Whitehurst, didn't you, as an ardent Hasselbeck supporter, point out quite often that we needed to trust the guys who get to see them both in practice every day?
And if that was you, what changed?

_________________
SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need

You are right, we COULD talk about it all day, and I'm not convinced that Flynn would give us any better chance then Wilson. The inability to score is definitely a concern, but the stats are meaningless to me. Stats will only tell you what you want to see. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

I guess to elaborate a little more (I have time at the moment and am bored)....if I was the coach, and based on my limited knowledge, I would have started Flynn at the start of the season. My reasoning is that Flynn was the more experienced QB at the time, even though it was not much more experience. However, the coaches have a lot more info then I do and they decided to start Wilson for what ever reason.

Wilson has not done too bad. He has hit a learning curve that one would expect from a rookie, but overall, he hasn't done bad. As I said the TDs are a concern, but I believe that will eventually be worked out. I base this on the fact that they offense CAN move the ball.

The reason I am against "changing horse" is that the whole team is affected. Flynn will have his own "learning curve" he will have to overcome. The whole offensive dynamics change. The OC will have to relearn what plays work best for Flynn vs Wilson. The blocking scheme may have to change. And the routes may have to change. We could be faced with the possibility of having to start from square one....all on a "what-if....could-be" possibility. I do not think the Seahawks would come out ahead by scraping any offensive plan built to date.

So, did everything switch? Those who wanted to see Whitehurst (me included) are now onboard with keeping Wilson playing while the ardent supporters of Matt want to see the back up?

_________________
Super Bowl Champions XVLIII

Bizarro world.

_________________
SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need

AMEN BROTHA!!!!
It is going to take a season or two for Wilson to develop into a top notch QB. He might start clicking by the middle of this season for all we know. I am patient because this young team is going to be bad ass! Plus, our division is getting tough and the whole league is scared of the NFC West. It's gonna be a fun ride.

There are two different things being discussed here. The underlying debate is about Flynn vs. Wilson, and that colors every other viewpoint including the perception that being patient means sticking with the rookie Wilson and being "impatiences" would be going with Flynn. I suspect that Wilson vs. Flynn is the argument that the OP is really addressing, and not the issue of how pressing the desire to win should be for fans.

When it comes to Wilson vs. Flynn it makes sense to leave it up to the coaching staff. They have more information and I think that PC is indeed doing his best to win now. The complete rebuild metaphor is misapplied to this team. PC kept many veterans as depth in his first year to give us a better chance to win. He put an injured TJack into a game when CW was struggling. Consider TJack's presence here last year at all as a high floor guy who knew the system. I am not at all worried that Carroll is intentionally sacrificing 2012.

As for winning now vs. being patient and considering the future? Winning now is a very reasonable desire from a fan viewpoint. Tickets, parking and concessions are expensive. Some of the same people arguing for patience in this thread are the same types who have said they are not going to watch a game on their TV because things weren't going well at the time. When I hear somebody say they wouldn't mind finishing 8-8, all that signifies to me is that they don't very much invested in this season. There is nothing wrong with that but don't expect people with more invested to share your opinions.

_________________
"Check out my 2012 NFL Draft Grades. I just gave the worst grade ever to Seattle." - WalterFootball.com

What evidence have you seen this year that would support the notion that Flynn would be playing better? The problem is, with the Flynn supporters is that their opinions are based on hopes, not any definable production from the preseason or anything else. Please don't bring his 2 (2.5 games total)starts as evidence. Those are irrelevant at this point in time. -- different, schemes, supporting cast, ect. If those 3 games were really an indication of his true ability than he should have won the job easily. He didn't so I consider the Lion's '11 game an outlier. Just as RW Chiefs game was an outlier.

My take on this is simple. PC has the most comprehensive data on both of these QB's, dating back to OTA's. If anyone was qualified to decide who starts, it would be him. He knows all the factors and has weighed them and determined RW is the best man for the job. It's that simple. I support PC, because I beleive he would start whomever was best regardless of circumstance. In Pete I trust. Now in a few weeks if RW isn't averaging 200- 225 yards a game or is struggling to convert on 3rd down, or turning the ball over alot, I would expect and hope that PC would make a change if he felt that the QB play wasn't up to scratch.

However, I was very encouraged by what I saw in the Carolina game. I would expect more improvement this week as PC allows the offense to open it up more.

Scottymojo, I can't quote big posts on my cell but to answer your question it is a simple no, I never trusted this coaching staff regarding the QB position
So I have never said trust the coach's
I've seen to many bad decisions by coach's over the years to ever take that stance.

With Hasselbeck I simply believed he was the better QB just like Flynn right now. The only time I really didn't care was the choice between Tjack and Whity. It was just as bad either way. I do question why Carroll pulled Lynch for the Browns game
Was he trying to ensure that Jackson looks like the better option?

Hopefully that helps.

_________________
The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.

Thanks for clearing that up.
It still supports my contention that this isn't about Flynn/Wilson, but is about trust in Carroll.

_________________
SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need

I agree, this is the opposite of Jackson vs Whitehurst. We know both of these QB's are much better. It's not even a question of who will be the better QB in the long run, it is (at least to me) the question of are we giving up a possible super bowl run to develop a rookie.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Flynn is the best QB in the world but as good as the rest of the team is even a top 15 QB might be enough and I do believe Flynn has a good shot at that.

I also one that believes a rookie always benefits from watching for a while before getting thrust onto the field. I also don't believe even if Flynn won a super bowl that Wilson doesn't have a future here. His work ethic will get him his shot and Flynn becomes great trade bait.

_________________
The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.

Other than using the word "impatiences," which isn't even a word unless you are speaking French, I thought you made a great first post Nunya. Spot on with every point.

I think the reaction is in part because we aren't really used to a situation like this. Pete and John have created progress so fast that we've taken it for granted already. Now it's as if those two aren't creating progress fast enough. Amazing right? A few people that just hoped to have a decent team five years down the road in 2010 are now besides themselves that we are "wasting" a top 3 defense. Notice that I said a few. I don't think they represent most Seahawks fans. I think it's really just a case of a "vocal minority."

Not that anything is wrong with that. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Me? I'm just going to sit back and enjoy what's coming around the corner. It's going to be glorious. Hell, can you imagine if this was happening in the NFC West from two years ago? We'd be like the Texans of the NFC.

What gets to me is the whole "instant gratification" thing. We're Seahawks fans. We're one of the most long suffering fandoms out there. To accuse us of wanting instant gratification is like telling an innocent man who's been behind bars 20 years that he's in a hurry to get out or a 30 year old virgin that he's only interested in sex.

This team can win this year. We as Seahawks fans know all too well how rarely things come together like this season has and how easily it can all evaporate away. No one understands the vaporous nature of future potential like a Seahawks fan. You grab your chances when they present themselves and they are presenting themselves THIS season. So you take your shot NOW, while you can. The future holds promise, but the future holds unknowns as well. Injuries, bad schedules, upsets, bad bounces and bad refereeing. and that's just scraping the top of the iceberg of things that could rob us of the potential that the future holds. No one even is willing to mention that Wilson, like every rookie QB, could turn out to be a bust. At which point we wasted this golden opportunity.

_________________
Richard Sherman doesn't just wanna get in your head, he wants to build a vacation home there.

R. Sherman: "I don't want to be an island. I want to be a tourist attraction. You come, I take your money & you go."

Impatient? We have far too patient.

This fan base has been subjected to 35 years of mediocrity.

I think it's time to win.

_________________

Why do you not trust this regime on QBs? If Matt Hasselbeck was still here, would you start him over Wilson or Flynn? And before you say "yes", which man I hope you don't, keep in mind that Russell Wilson has a higher 2012 passer rating than Hasselbeck does so far. Wilson also has something Hasselbeck does not: a future in the NFL.

I see a FO and coach that values the QB position tremendously and is always at work to improve the position, not just at the starting job but at the backup spots as well. I thought before the draft that Russell Wilson was a homerun pick by some team. When that team was the Seahawks, it solidified my opinion that this regime "gets it" when it comes to QBs, too. The Eagles are strongly believed to have badly wanted Wilson too later in the same round. Would anyone dispute Andy Reid's QB credentials?

And even if they are wrong on both Flynn and Wilson, the truth is that the resources they spent on both combined is roughly the same as what the team has spent on Brandon Mebane. If they felt they had to, they could easily move on to the next option on the table- a loaded 2013 draft class for QBs.

And this right here is why it is an absolute godsend that fans aren't involved in the running of the team's business. WE may have been suffering for 35 years. This current regime, however, isn't burdened by that. They're not going to be forced into knee-jerk decisions based on an emotional reaction to that history. They inherited a crap team 2.5 years ago and have set about implementing a plan to change the philosophy, culture, and direction of the team. They're not 35 long years into a fruitless quest. They're just over the halfway point in implementing their plan. For them, a QB failing to pan out isn't suddenly a long slog into memories of Mirer, Stouffer, McGwire, etc. It's just a QB failing to pan out, spurring the team to go with "plan B". It doesn't carry the same weight (and therefore, isn't panic-inducing for them).

_________________


Super Bowl XLVIII Champions