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 Post subject: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:55 am 
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Before the draft there was many out there who though Luke Kuechly would be a great fit for the Seahawks, some even wanted to trade up to get him. Through 5 Weeks our Rookies have been doing very well. I read an article on ESPN that caught my eye. Carolina's MB Jon Beason is doubtful for Sundays game VS Seattle and here is what Pat Yasinskas had to say about that.

Phillips seems like the better option
"The Panthers could play it safe and start Jason Phillips in the middle. Or they could take a chance and move outside linebacker Luke Kuechly to the middle, where he played in college. Kuechly isn't off to a great start and switching positions could make things more difficult for him."

So after looking at these stats how do you feel about our first two pick this year.

Luke Kuechly - 12 solo/14 ast/26 tkls/0 sks/5 tk loss/2 Pd/0 Int/0 FF/0 F rec
Bobby Wagner - 17 solo/6 ast/23 tkls/0 sks/3 tk loss/0 Pd/0 Int/0 FF/0 F rec
Bruce Irvin - 2 solo/1 ast/3 tkls/2.5 sks/0 tk loss/0 Pd/0 Int/0 FF/0 F rec

I feel pretty good about PC/JS decisions in this draft and the fact that "Kuechly isn't off to a great start" makes me even happier that we have Wagner plugging the middle for us. I'd love to see Lynch bulldoze Kuechly as a reminded he will never be worthy of his top 10 draft position.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:38 am 
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I know we've all heard it before, but really,... it's way to early to judge the draft yet,...by the end of this season we may have a better feel for the what ifs, and even then it may take a few seasons for some players to blossom,...I personally think Kuechly, Wagner, and Irvin will all turn into fine NFL players,..


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:00 am 
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Wagner is about to take off, he will end up withl far better stats than kookly. it was another stellar pic. Now if we can just find some offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:12 am 
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Chukarhawk wrote:
Wagner is about to take off, he will end up withl far better stats than kookly. it was another stellar pic. Now if we can just find some offense.


Yep!


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:21 am 
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yea i agree Wagner finally stood out to me in last weeks game . once he starts getting play recongintion we will have two great young LBs .. im sure LeRoy will stick around for another year or two. which is amazing giving the fact we all thought he woulda been goon before Tatupu


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:45 am 
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I thought it was take Keuchly or Irvin. Where does Wagner come into the talk of keuchly? I have no opinion either way as I don't know a thing about Keuchly other than people wanted us to take him instead of Irvin. I just am wondering why Wagner is in the conversation in case I'm missing something.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:47 am 
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I'm happy with the way things turned out, I wasn't too high on Kuechly as many here understandably were, dude had numbers at BC. He just didn't make enough plays on youtube videos for me to say "Wow we need this guy". But to see Wagner making plays like I want to see out of any LB, like he did last week? I can't help but feel good about B-Wagz!

Irvin? I love him, I really really really love what he is now and what he can become!

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:11 am 
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I really liked Kuechly pre-draft, but knowing what we have in Wagner and the huge upside with Irvin, there's no way I'd trade Irvin + Wagner for Kuechly + the top 2nd round defensive end in the draft.

Now, if it was a straight-up trade with Kuechly and Wagner, I'd make that trade. From what I've read, Kuechly has been going through the usual early rookie blues, adapting to the speed of the NFL and a new position, but has played pretty well the last two games. He's learning like most rookies do.

Wagner, on the other hand, has played consistent, good football. Nothing flashy, yet nothing that stands out as poor play. In reality, he couldn't have asked for a better situation to be in; the only new starter on a returning top-10 defense, playing only base defense, and sharing play calling duties with another linebacker (KJ).

Given the way it played out, though, I couldn't ask for much more.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:19 am 
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Bobby Wagner is simply better.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:19 am 
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Recon_Hawk wrote:
I really liked Kuechly pre-draft, but knowing what we have in Wagner and the huge upside with Irvin, there's no way I'd trade Irvin + Wagner for Kuechly + the top 2nd round defensive end in the draft.

Now, if it was a straight-up trade with Kuechly and Wagner, I'd make that trade. From what I've read, Kuechly has been going through the usual early rookie blues, adapting to the speed of the NFL and a new position, but has played pretty well the last two games. He's learning like most rookies do.

Wagner, on the other hand, has played consistent, good football. Nothing flashy, yet nothing that stands out as poor play. In reality, he couldn't have asked for a better situation to be in; the only new starter on a returning top-10 defense, playing only base defense, and sharing play calling duties with another linebacker (KJ).

Given the way it played out, though, I couldn't ask for much more.

Huh?

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:28 am 
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BigMeach wrote:
Recon_Hawk wrote:
I really liked Kuechly pre-draft, but knowing what we have in Wagner and the huge upside with Irvin, there's no way I'd trade Irvin + Wagner for Kuechly + the top 2nd round defensive end in the draft.

Now, if it was a straight-up trade with Kuechly and Wagner, I'd make that trade. From what I've read, Kuechly has been going through the usual early rookie blues, adapting to the speed of the NFL and a new position, but has played pretty well the last two games. He's learning like most rookies do.

Wagner, on the other hand, has played consistent, good football. Nothing flashy, yet nothing that stands out as poor play. In reality, he couldn't have asked for a better situation to be in; the only new starter on a returning top-10 defense, playing only base defense, and sharing play calling duties with another linebacker (KJ).

Given the way it played out, though, I couldn't ask for much more.

Huh?


What are you confused with, BigMeach?

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:39 pm 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
I thought it was take Keuchly or Irvin. Where does Wagner come into the talk of keuchly? I have no opinion either way as I don't know a thing about Keuchly other than people wanted us to take him instead of Irvin. I just am wondering why Wagner is in the conversation in case I'm missing something.



Well it was Keuchly vs Irvin but knowing we got a damn good MLB with our 2nd round pick who is nearly preforming or possibly out preforming the #9 pick sure makes me glad we went the route we did. Grabbing a pass rushing DE in the first and still getting Wagner in the 2nd is icing.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:49 pm 
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No point in comparing Irvin to Kuechly. They play different positions. The question will be how does Irvin compare with Coples, Ingram, etc. Other 1st round pass rushers. Lets hope Bruce has more than 1 good game this season


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:36 pm 
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From my point of view this was easy. I scouted MLBs heavily knowing that is was likely we'd need one since I figured Hawthorne was going to want a decent sized contract and we wanted more speed. I thought Wagner was far and away the best combination of power at the POA and speed. In terms of athletics there were two top candidates in Wagner and Kendricks with Keuchly being just a little bit behind in that category. Wagner was the best of the 3 at the POA. Knowing what I like in a MLB they would need to be a tough SOB that could take on Cs and Gs. Kendricks was not that. Kueckly was not that. Wagner was. Again, we come back to the combination of power and speed and Wagner was head and shoulders above the rest. I thought the only MLB in the draft that could beat Wags at the POA was Hightower, but he was far less mobile.

1st round all I wanted was a pass rusher. I didn't scout them much. From my point of view I got exactly what I wanted. I was actually truly satisfied by round 2s end. Then the awesome picks just kept on coming and coming. This will go down as an extremely good draft when all is said and done.

IMO, for the Seahawks style of defense.

Wagner > Kuechly
Wagner > Kendricks

Neither of those two ended up being MLBs anyway. Kendricks will not be in the foreseeable future with Ryans in the middle and Kueckly will not be any time soon with Beason in the middle. However, I also thought that Wagner could play just about any LB position on the field with his combination of power and speed. You can't call me a homer on this one either. In my mind, this was set in stone long before the draft ever happened. I remember texting my brother in round two after jumping out of my chair "WAGNER!!!".

Of course, my brother being a truck driver who watches ESPN for stuff to know says. "WTF is Wagner?" He wanted the best G in the draft because he's been stuck on Hutch so he wanted the Standford gaurd, who escapes me by name at the moment. (Decastro)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-am/0ap100 ... -is-Week-4


Last edited by vin.couve12 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:39 pm 
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MANUNITED23 wrote:
Bobby Wagner is simply better.


Not really. Kuechly is learning a new position plus from the game footage that I have seen of him, he looks about the same as Bobby Wagner (before last weeks game).

Now, Kuechly was drafted 9th overall for a reason. He was the best cover LB in the draft (behind our Bobby Wagner) but he is also a sound tackler and has an uncanny IQ for the game.

I would prefer Irvin + Wagner over Kuechly + 2nd round pass rusher for sure. The only knock on Wagner compared to Kuechly is height. Wagner is more athletic (though Kuechly is very athletic in his own right) and is arguably better at the LOS (Wagner has long arms). The only noticeable area will be Football IQ, but hopefully Bobby Wagner can become a strong leader in the middle.


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:50 pm 
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El_Rey wrote:
MANUNITED23 wrote:
Bobby Wagner is simply better.


Not really. Kuechly is learning a new position plus from the game footage that I have seen of him, he looks about the same as Bobby Wagner (before last weeks game).

Now, Kuechly was drafted 9th overall for a reason. He was the best cover LB in the draft (behind our Bobby Wagner) but he is also a sound tackler and has an uncanny IQ for the game.

I would prefer Irvin + Wagner over Kuechly + 2nd round pass rusher for sure. The only knock on Wagner compared to Kuechly is height. Wagner is more athletic (though Kuechly is very athletic in his own right) and is arguably better at the LOS (Wagner has long arms). The only noticeable area will be Football IQ, but hopefully Bobby Wagner can become a strong leader in the middle.

The one thing Kueckly had over every other LB in the draft is a natural knack for playing in space while also having a full understanding of his defense and the players around him (ie pass coverage). It was perfectly illustrated in a pick 6 he had. He had a short zone that also meant he could get to the flat. They had one receiver lined up to the left side of the field (his right) with the strong side away from him so he was essentially playing a weak side nickel LB role and the only way he could affect the route of that lone WR is if they tried to throw a slant to the open area between him and the corner. He knew is before the ball was snapped and made a B line right for that area. Pick 6 and it was because of his understanding of the game and the play call. Kueckly needed work at the POA, IMO. People gave him a lot of cred for making so many tackles, but it was my humble opinion that most of those tackles came downfield where if he would have taken on the OL and plugged his gap the RB wouldn't have gotten as far, but instead he goes for the tackle AROUND the OL and abandons his gap assignement. Thus, the RB gets more yards than they should have regardless if Kuechly made the tackle or not.

He's playing WLB and I think that suits him best right now. He's at his best playing in space and the WLB gets to do that more than the others. Kendricks will likely end up on the weak side as well, but Philly does't have anything better to offer on the strong side. They Just let Rolle go in favor of Moten. Rolle will end up on someone's team because he can run a little and loves to hit. Hates special teams and plays out of control though. The special teams part of it is the reason why he was cut for the most part. Couldn't keep the WLB job over there.


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Bruce and Bobby have played well for us so far. Though I do expect them to improve even more as the season moves along.

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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:16 am 
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I'm a USU alumn, so I'm big on Wagner

BUT

I think Kuechly will turn out to be a great player. After all, he was a LB drafted in the top ten. It's one of the easier positions to adapt to the NFL. Any LB drafted in the top ten is sure to be a impact player in the NFL. It's pretty much guaranteed.

Wait........
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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:57 am 
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Before the draft, a few people (including myself) remarked that Wagner was like a 2nd round version of Kuechly. Great in coverage, pretty good at tracking the ball, fast. But not good at attacking behind the LOS. I was a big fan of Kuechly, but to get him the Seahawks would have probably had to give up their 1st and 2nd to move up high enough. I'd much rather have Irvin + Wagner, no doubt. Not to mention the extra 4 picks we got in rounds 4-7.


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:12 am 
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Kendricks just missed a huge open field tackle and Mendenhal scores.


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 Post subject: Re: Kuechly vs Irvin vs Wagner
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:05 am 
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Love what Wagner is bringing.

I thought Wagner was a better fit for playing the middle than Kendricks, but I still would have been fine with Kuechly. I loved his coverage ability.

However my number one choice ever was Lavonte David. Still wish we could have found a way to snag him and still found a MLB and a pass rusher.


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