The 4 year plan

Scottemojo":udum5pqu said:

kf3339":udum5pqu said:

iigakusei":udum5pqu said:

Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

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Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

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31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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By your token then, 32 GM's passed not once but twice on Wilson in the draft. Many had QB needs but chose NOT to pick him, including us. How do you explain that? In addition at least 10 GM's passed on him before we took him in the 3rd round. Many still had QB issues but still chose to pass. Why? Just because he was too short? It couldn't be anything else?

I don't know and neither do you!

kf3339":2yhzy1cj said:

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

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Big numbers over a 2 game sample can be very inflated and misleading when you have several fluky plays like a RB taking a screen from behind the LOS for an 80 yard TD, a WR getting 10 yards beyond the secondary for an easy TD bomb, and WRs taking short slants through the secondary for huge gains. Those aren't plays that are likely to be repeated and don't have much predictive value for the QB's future performance.

SalishHawkFan":2yhzy1cj said:

Scottemojo":2yhzy1cj said:

31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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One knew they were drafting Luck. One was trying to grab RG3. One grabbed Tannehill. A couple were in the hunt for Mr. Manning. One in Florida didn't offer him as good a deal as we did. The rest already had QB's they were going with. Who would have grabbed Flynn besides Miami that didn't already have someone lined up? You aren't going to dump a QB with experience in your system for an untested FA. The Niners would have snatched up Manning, but dump Smith for Flynn? No way.

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Miami, Cleveland, Kansas City. Maybe Arizona. Maybe Jacksonville if they wanted someone other than Chad Henne or David Garrard to push their struggling young QB. It should tell you something that Flynn's OC in Green Bay got a head coaching job on a team with a gaping hole at QB and didn't want him. They hadn't drafted Tannehill during Flynn's free agency, and even if they knew they were going to, Tannehill was widely considered a project who had only played QB for a couple years. I have a hard time believing Philbin would have passed on Flynn if he thought he could be really good.

Sgt. Largent":2yhzy1cj said:

iigakusei":2yhzy1cj said:

Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

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People keep saying this. If Carroll and Schneider thought Flynn wasn't very good, then why'd they sign him and give him 10 million?

To me Flynn is a Hasselbeck type QB, not Hall of Fame material, but a serviceable QB that you can win with, and even go to the Superbowl with if all other parts of the team excel. He can read defenses, he's smart, and he can make enough plays during the course of a game to win.

But we'll never find out cause he's holding a clipboard while we throw for 120 yards a game cause we're starting a rookie QB.

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Maybe they thought he could be a decent bridge QB until they could get their QBOTF. He was signed to compete with Tarvaris Jackson before Wilson was drafted. If they didn't get a potential long-term QB in the draft, they might not have been comfortable with only Jackson and Portis at the position this year. The argument of "they gave him 10 million so they need to see what they have" is the same argument as "they gave up picks for Whitehurst so they need to start him in the regular season to see what they have." Couldn't it be possible that through camp and practices, they have already seen enough to know what that don't have?

And I'm sorry, but calling Flynn a Hasselbeck type QB is absurd to me. Hasselbeck was a very good QB in his prime who carried a good offense in 2007 with no running game, no line, and one of the worst groups of receivers in the league. It's much more likely that Flynn is a Tyler Thigpen type QB than a Matt Hasselbeck type QB.

jewhawk":5k48satf said:

SalishHawkFan":5k48satf said:

Scottemojo":5k48satf said:

31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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One knew they were drafting Luck. One was trying to grab RG3. One grabbed Tannehill. A couple were in the hunt for Mr. Manning. One in Florida didn't offer him as good a deal as we did. The rest already had QB's they were going with. Who would have grabbed Flynn besides Miami that didn't already have someone lined up? You aren't going to dump a QB with experience in your system for an untested FA. The Niners would have snatched up Manning, but dump Smith for Flynn? No way.

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Miami, Cleveland, Kansas City. Maybe Arizona. Maybe Jacksonville if they wanted someone other than Chad Henne or David Garrard to push their struggling young QB. It should tell you something that Flynn's OC in Green Bay got a head coaching job on a team with a gaping hole at QB and didn't want him. They hadn't drafted Tannehill during Flynn's free agency, and even if they knew they were going to, Tannehill was widely considered a project who had only played QB for a couple years. I have a hard time believing Philbin would have passed on Flynn if he thought he could be really good.

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Yet they all passed over Wilson several times in the draft. So by your logic, Wilson must not have seemed too impressive either.

iigakusei":1q6185zm said:

kf3339":1q6185zm said:

iigakusei":1q6185zm said:

Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

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Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

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I guess that is why there was so much demand for him in the off-season? That Detroit game was a one-off - of that I am positive. Look, I think Flynn is a good QB, but I trust the coaches that see these guys every day in practice to make the right decision.

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Yes, and it is going to be their ass on the line if they screwed up the QB position again. I'm not so sure Allen will allow a full 5 years for PC to keep experimenting with that position. Even he can see what is holding this team back from being a major force.

kf3339":1cziyr7u said:

Scottemojo":1cziyr7u said:

kf3339":1cziyr7u said:

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

Click to expand...

31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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By your token then, 32 GM's passed not once but twice on Wilson in the draft. Many had QB needs but chose NOT to pick him, including us. How do you explain that? In addition at least 10 GM's passed on him before we took him in the 3rd round. Many still had QB issues but still chose to pass. Why? Just because he was too short? It couldn't be anything else?

I don't know and neither do you!

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I think it has been made pretty clear by very many NFL people that his height was the only reason he slipped. Who knows, it may turn out to be a very good reason. Wasn't it Kiper who said if he was taller he would be a top 10 pick? I never heard anyone disagree with that. So, yes, I do know that one.

I want whoever starts to be awesome. Flynn/Wilson/Portis, I don't care. Difference is, I think our staff has earned some trust, and you do not. Forget who is waiting in the wings, this is at the heart of the disagreement on this board. I heard this same shit with Teel. People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

Scottemojo":3anewacj said:

People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

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I don't love Flynn, I just would like to see if he's good or not before we start the Russell Wilson is the best QB ever experiment.

Hell, could be they both suck, but I don't like paying a guy 10 million, then benching him for an unproven 3rd round draft pick just because he WOW'd us all in three meaningless pre-season games against 2nd and 3rd string scrubs.

All I care about is who gives us the best chance to beat the Carolina Panthers, and IMO that QB's name is Matthew Clayton Flynn.

SalishHawkFan":uuoowuef said:

Yet they all passed over Wilson several times in the draft. So by your logic, Wilson must not have seemed too impressive either.

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Not really. There's a pretty big difference between signing a reasonably priced free agent and spending an early round draft pick on someone.

Scottemojo":23q02gr6 said:

I think it has been made pretty clear by very many NFL people that his height was the only reason he slipped. Who knows, it may turn out to be a very good reason. Wasn't it Kiper who said if he was taller he would be a top 10 pick? I never heard anyone disagree with that. So, yes, I do know that one.

I want whoever starts to be awesome. Flynn/Wilson/Portis, I don't care. Difference is, I think our staff has earned some trust, and you do not. Forget who is waiting in the wings, this is at the heart of the disagreement on this board. I heard this same shit with Teel. People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

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You hit at the heart of why you and I are having a rare disagreement. I have TONS of trust in P&J to build a great defense, rushing attack, etc. But I've yet to see them make ONE move at QB that has panned out. The Whitehurst trade was terrible. TJack? Really? TJACK?!? Why let go Hass?

And if you'd believe all the people who don't want to see Flynn start, he was a lousy pick too.

Wilson might, MIGHT have potential - and I would love it if he acheives it - but I think it's a mistake to thrust him in there from the start. Flynn is an adequate QB and all we need is adequate to be a legitimate playoff contender.

I've listened to the Mariners keep telling us for a decade now that we just need to be patient a couple more years. Sorry, but the Seahawks are an adequate QB away from being dominant NOW. I'm pretty sure Flynn is at least an adequate QB. I'm pretty sure Wilson won't be adequate for another year.

I'm also seeing that my worst fears have come true: By throwing Wilson in too soon we may be wasting his potential. It happens to lots of QB's who had the misfortune of being thrust into the starting job year one. Some thrive (RG3), some don't. Wilson isn't thriving out there. He's getting worse. Even Kearly admits it. THAT, more than anything else, is why we should be starting Flynn.

Sgt. Largent":1ifn559t said:

Scottemojo":1ifn559t said:

People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

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I don't love Flynn, I just would like to see if he's good or not before we start the Russell Wilson is the best QB ever experiment.

Hell, could be they both suck, but I don't like paying a guy 10 million, then benching him for an unproven 3rd round draft pick just because he WOW'd us all in three meaningless pre-season games against 2nd and 3rd string scrubs.

All I care about is who gives us the best chance to beat the Carolina Panthers, and IMO that QB's name is Matthew Clayton Flynn.

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That is exactly what I was referring too. Coach has already seen it, your demands are because you think he is not as smart as you in these things.

Besides, I was not aware you were paying Matt Flynn. Unless you are Paul Allen, then you can say whatever you want.

Sgt. Largent":rqli7jkq said:

All I care about is who gives us the best chance to beat the Carolina Panthers, and IMO that QB's name is Matthew Clayton Flynn.

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And yet there is basically ZERO data to back that up.

There's zero data to refute it too.

SalishHawkFan":ryusinlg said:

Scottemojo":ryusinlg said:

I think it has been made pretty clear by very many NFL people that his height was the only reason he slipped. Who knows, it may turn out to be a very good reason. Wasn't it Kiper who said if he was taller he would be a top 10 pick? I never heard anyone disagree with that. So, yes, I do know that one.

I want whoever starts to be awesome. Flynn/Wilson/Portis, I don't care. Difference is, I think our staff has earned some trust, and you do not. Forget who is waiting in the wings, this is at the heart of the disagreement on this board. I heard this same shit with Teel. People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

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You hit at the heart of why you and I are having a rare disagreement. I have TONS of trust in P&J to build a great defense, rushing attack, etc. But I've yet to see them make ONE move at QB that has panned out. The Whitehurst trade was terrible. TJack? Really? TJACK?!? Why let go Hass?

And if you'd believe all the people who don't want to see Flynn start, he was a lousy pick too.

Wilson might, MIGHT have potential - and I would love it if he acheives it - but I think it's a mistake to thrust him in there from the start. Flynn is an adequate QB and all we need is adequate to be a legitimate playoff contender.

I've listened to the Mariners keep telling us for a decade now that we just need to be patient a couple more years. Sorry, but the Seahawks are an adequate QB away from being dominant NOW. I'm pretty sure Flynn is at least an adequate QB. I'm pretty sure Wilson won't be adequate for another year.

I'm also seeing that my worst fears have come true: By throwing Wilson in too soon we may be wasting his potential. It happens to lots of QB's who had the misfortune of being thrust into the starting job year one. Some thrive (RG3), some don't. Wilson isn't thriving out there. He's getting worse. Even Kearly admits it. THAT, more than anything else, is why we should be starting Flynn.

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I do not disagree with you that these guys have had a tough time getting their hands on the right QB. And yet, outside of Dalton, nobody ever says who they should have taken that is so much better. And Pete said he really liked Dalton, so even if he is not on this team, he was considered, which actually reflects well on their judgement. They also tried to get Peyton Manning to talk to them, so it isn't like they ignored his possibilities. They ignored Mallett, and that is looking like a decent decision too. Other than that, who could they have taken? Or signed? Kolb? Yeah, me neither.

I don't think they are flawess, but who the hell is when it comes to evaluating NFL talent? I think they have earned the leeway to see this through.

SalishHawkFan":3gmrwbp7 said:

Scottemojo":3gmrwbp7 said:

I think it has been made pretty clear by very many NFL people that his height was the only reason he slipped. Who knows, it may turn out to be a very good reason. Wasn't it Kiper who said if he was taller he would be a top 10 pick? I never heard anyone disagree with that. So, yes, I do know that one.

I want whoever starts to be awesome. Flynn/Wilson/Portis, I don't care. Difference is, I think our staff has earned some trust, and you do not. Forget who is waiting in the wings, this is at the heart of the disagreement on this board. I heard this same shit with Teel. People love the backups when they think the coach is stupid.

Click to expand...

You hit at the heart of why you and I are having a rare disagreement. I have TONS of trust in P&J to build a great defense, rushing attack, etc. But I've yet to see them make ONE move at QB that has panned out. The Whitehurst trade was terrible. TJack? Really? TJACK?!? Why let go Hass?

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The answer to this question is so ridiculously easy that it amazes me people continue to ignore it.

23 turnovers in 2010. 23 compared to 12 TD passes. For someone demanding 2-3 years in the 7 million dollar per year range. Tarvaris Jackson gave us better stats for half the price. (Even on the Titans, Hass still turned the ball over 18 times.)

SalishHawkFan":gm80cezh said:

There's zero data to refute it too.

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The onus is on the one making the claim that Flynn is the best chance we have for a W at Carolina. And since you know that's just as likely to be false as true, you're equivocating here.

SalishHawkFan":366pghpl said:

You hit at the heart of why you and I are having a rare disagreement. I have TONS of trust in P&J to build a great defense, rushing attack, etc. But I've yet to see them make ONE move at QB that has panned out. The Whitehurst trade was terrible. TJack? Really? TJACK?!? Why let go Hass?

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You want reasons we let Hass go? I'll give you twenty one million reasons.

Zebulon Dak":21dxmbq8 said:

Sgt. Largent":21dxmbq8 said:

All I care about is who gives us the best chance to beat the Carolina Panthers, and IMO that QB's name is Matthew Clayton Flynn.

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And yet there is basically ZERO data to back that up.

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But he used the middle name. Everyone's Mom knows using the middle name makes things more serious...

Theretofore, I insist that Russell Carrington Wilson should remain the starter for the American football match against the Panthers of Carolina!

And everyone knows that "Carrington" carries WAY more stroke than Clayton.

bestfightstory":12xuvdd9 said:

kearly-you are a great writer.

Sorry, though. Unlike you, I did not want to lose for draft position in 2010. And I felt rewarded and vindicated in that approach by the BeastQuake playoff victory.

In 2011, I was not on board with you and 50% or more of this fanbase who wanted the Seattle Seahawks to 'Suck For Luck'. I was not comfortable with losing in the moment. I was not content with concrete failures today in exchange for the fantasy of successes tomorrow.

In the same fashion. I am NOT comfortable with these unnecessary losses in 2012. In the preseason while others were picking sides i decided that whichever quarterback steps behind center would become saddled with my expectation that he do enough to lead this team to victories. I echo the words of Seahawk2K, above. This team is built to win and right now RW is holding it back.

Already, after week 4, Seahawks fans are starting to talk about next year in glowing terms like some default coping mechanism against broken dreams.

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Not just 2013.. but FOUR years from now.

I'm with you completely.. this team should be winning TODAY. Maybe we're ahead of schedule on this plan, but that's the nature of the beast.

SalishHawkFan":mxkkmvqt said:

There's zero data to refute it too.

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That's not even an argument.

Scottemojo":1uwyed6l said:

31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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Are those the same 31 that passed on Wilson for 2 1/2 rounds at a far, far cheaper price?

There...used your logic against you. 8)

Verndog":woy58fnw said:

Scottemojo":woy58fnw said:

31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?

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Are those the same 31 that passed on Wilson for 2 1/2 rounds at a far, far cheaper price?

There...used your logic against you. 8)

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Not really. It is a pretty well established media factoid that Wilson would have been a first round pick if he was 3 inches taller. They may be right, maybe height will be his undoing as a QB.

Why do you think nobody but us wanted Flynn, and then at a greatly reduced price? Certainly Manning was a hot commodity, and he could barely throw at the time. There were plenty of teams in the market for that upgrade, even teams that could not fit Manning under the cap without lots of restructuring/and or cuts. And Manning has never thrown for 480 yards and 6 touchdowns in just one game.