The 4 year plan

Scottemojo

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SalishHawkFan":g6hkfi1y said:
sorry Kearly, but pointing out what a great job they've done building this team isn't addressing the valid concerns people are having right now. No one is unhappy with their ability to build a team. We all Trust Pete and John when it comes to building this team. There are valid concerns, however, when it comes to playcalling (onsides kick anyone? 3rd and 2?). You can go back two years and see WTF? moments in Pete's playcalling which he later - admirably I might add - took the blame for.

But the biggest concern is the choice of starting Wilson now. Maybe he'll one day be that QB we've all been waiting for. But a rookie has a lot to learn and it's best for him to sit out a year or two and get acclimated to the speed and technicality of the NFL. Flynn already did that. Flynn comes from a team known for producing good QB's. Flynn already proved he can play in a regular season game with success. Wilson should never have won the job. Pete should have KNOWN better. By giving Wilson the job Pete basically said this year was expendable. We'll take what we can get. But Pete overlooked two critical things no head coach should ever overlook: A rookie can get overwhelmed, shell shocked and develop bad habits if thrown into the fire before he's ready. Wilson needed to acclimate. He's already shown signs that he's regressing, just as you yourself pointed out. The other thing is that it takes time even for a guy who is ready to start, aka Flynn, to learn how to play efficiently day in and day out. Look at Hass. Sat out two years, got the starting job, sucked (150 yds per game sound familiar?) and got benched. Then, his second time around he took off.

It takes time even for QB's who've been in the NFL a while to develop.

Wilson should have been on the bench, learning, from the get go. Flynn should have been out there getting his hands dirty from the get go. That way, Flynn develops into a quality QB much sooner and Wilson, who's developmental track was always bound to be longer than Flynn's, can get valuable experience without costing the team games.

Instead, Pete bypassed Flynn and put Wilson on the fast track. It was a mistake. Mistakes about who your starting QB should be are deadly in the NFL. Not just to the team, but to the coaches credibility. Combine that with craptastic playcalling in crucial moments and there aren't many who will retain faith in Pete no matter how fantastic he is at building a good team. Pete needs to let Flynn play. If Flynn can't cut it, worst thing that happens is he would have given Wilson time to regather himself, learn on the sidelines and have a fire lit underneath him to get better and reclaim his team. If Flynn succeeds, nobody cares anymore that Pete made a bad judgement call because he corrected it. If Flynn fails, everyone sees that Pete's judgement was correct and it was just a matter of him not really having ANY QB that was ready, but at least he now can go back to Wilson knowing that he left no stone unturned.

All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.
 

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Scottemojo":2mvyrixu said:
All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.

But the backup has more exper... er... he's more mobile and can esca... er... he's been in Carroll's system longe... er... he's got a stronger ar... er... he's three inches taller, damnit!
 

SalishHawkFan

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It DOES assume the staff didn't make the right decision. Making the decision to start a rookie QB in his first year is almost invariably the WRONG decision if you have ANYONE capable of starting instead. Look at Peytons first year. Look at any elite QB's rookie year when he was thrown into the fire. The teams that do that HAVE to do that. Choice isn't an option. They picked so high in the draft because they already sucked and needed a QB.

But when you've got THREE QB's, one with extensive experience - albeit he'd never improve past mediocre - one with excellent credentials and potential who'd already shown he can succeed in the NFL and one who's a wet behind the ears QB you took in the third round, you're making a mistake to start him.

The results of that mistake are so obvious that even Kearly sees it despite how hyped up he's been about Wilson. The guy is regressing.
 

iigakusei

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Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?
 

kf3339

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Scottemojo":30yw1088 said:
SalishHawkFan":30yw1088 said:
sorry Kearly, but pointing out what a great job they've done building this team isn't addressing the valid concerns people are having right now. No one is unhappy with their ability to build a team. We all Trust Pete and John when it comes to building this team. There are valid concerns, however, when it comes to playcalling (onsides kick anyone? 3rd and 2?). You can go back two years and see WTF? moments in Pete's playcalling which he later - admirably I might add - took the blame for.

But the biggest concern is the choice of starting Wilson now. Maybe he'll one day be that QB we've all been waiting for. But a rookie has a lot to learn and it's best for him to sit out a year or two and get acclimated to the speed and technicality of the NFL. Flynn already did that. Flynn comes from a team known for producing good QB's. Flynn already proved he can play in a regular season game with success. Wilson should never have won the job. Pete should have KNOWN better. By giving Wilson the job Pete basically said this year was expendable. We'll take what we can get. But Pete overlooked two critical things no head coach should ever overlook: A rookie can get overwhelmed, shell shocked and develop bad habits if thrown into the fire before he's ready. Wilson needed to acclimate. He's already shown signs that he's regressing, just as you yourself pointed out. The other thing is that it takes time even for a guy who is ready to start, aka Flynn, to learn how to play efficiently day in and day out. Look at Hass. Sat out two years, got the starting job, sucked (150 yds per game sound familiar?) and got benched. Then, his second time around he took off.

It takes time even for QB's who've been in the NFL a while to develop.

Wilson should have been on the bench, learning, from the get go. Flynn should have been out there getting his hands dirty from the get go. That way, Flynn develops into a quality QB much sooner and Wilson, who's developmental track was always bound to be longer than Flynn's, can get valuable experience without costing the team games.

Instead, Pete bypassed Flynn and put Wilson on the fast track. It was a mistake. Mistakes about who your starting QB should be are deadly in the NFL. Not just to the team, but to the coaches credibility. Combine that with craptastic playcalling in crucial moments and there aren't many who will retain faith in Pete no matter how fantastic he is at building a good team. Pete needs to let Flynn play. If Flynn can't cut it, worst thing that happens is he would have given Wilson time to regather himself, learn on the sidelines and have a fire lit underneath him to get better and reclaim his team. If Flynn succeeds, nobody cares anymore that Pete made a bad judgement call because he corrected it. If Flynn fails, everyone sees that Pete's judgement was correct and it was just a matter of him not really having ANY QB that was ready, but at least he now can go back to Wilson knowing that he left no stone unturned.

All your rhetoric boils down to the oldest and least true argument in the NFL. We aren't winning because the backup is being squandered on the bench. The idea that the backup needs to start so we can see what we got is tired, and bullshit to the core. It automatically assumes that the coach/staff has not seen enough in camp, practice, and preseason to make the right decision.

Or the starter is on the bench, and the backup is the mistake starter. Just depends on how you wish to look at things. Who is to say which is right or wrong at this point?

It is what it is.
 

kf3339

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iigakusei":133svh6n said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.
 

bellingerga

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Thanks for another great read kearly. I agree pretty much on every point.

I'm trying my best not to be dissapointed in this offense right now. Life is short afterall and every year our offense blows chunks is another year of seahawk fandom we never get back but.... I still firmly believe that they are building this team in the right direction and I'm loving the players that are in place for the most part.

I will add though, that if the offense doesn't show a gradual improvement over the course of this year, and a much larger improvement next, that Carroll and company need to be on the hot seat if not fired out right by then.

If they can show improvement week by week this year, I can still be "all in".
 

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kf3339":lfzkvk06 said:
iigakusei":lfzkvk06 said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

Is that you, Michael Lombardi? If so, please say why Flynn is the better option, not just "HOLY SHORT QUARTERBACK, BATMAN!"
 

SalishHawkFan

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Whitehurst is not Flynn. I was the only person on this board who was outraged at what we gave up to get Whitehurst. Everyone was so giddy about P&J's first draft that I got ripped into left and right for criticizing that move. Whitehurst had done NOTHING to make anyone think he'd ever amount to anything.

Flynn is not Whitehurst. Flynn HAS done things to show he can succeed in the NFL, just ask Bart Starr, Bret Favre and Aaron Rodgers. He set records none of them hold. All Flynn didn't do was show up early enough and leave late enough to get on Petes good side, then he was asked to play too conservatively in the two first preseason games. Wilsons style was always going to look great in the preseason where he's not up against anything but vanilla defenses. But when the training wheels went on, Flynn didn't shine.

Lots of great players don't shine during preseason and kick butt during the regular season. They even had a show on it on Sportscenter one time.

No, Pete chose Wilson because Pete's "unconventional wisdom" and all the grief he took for picking him and Pete's inability to move past his college football years (onsides kicks, fancy plays that only work in college, etc.) blinded him to the fact that Wilson would not have the same success in the regular season. Pete has too much college 'rah rah" in him to get past how exciting Wilson looked vs vanilla defenses and second stringers to realize that Flynn might not look as flashy, but he's got the skillset to start in the NFL right NOW.

For the record: I'd rather see Wilson succeed. I was never very hyped on Flynn. His passes are wobbly, he doesn't have a strong arm. And I think the Seahawks can still make the playoffs despite Wilson's learning curve holding them back.

But Wilson shouldn't be thrust into the fire so soon. He's just not ready and he'll regress. He might never realize his potential BECAUSE he's starting now. Flynn IS ready. Flynn should have started all along.
 

iigakusei

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kf3339":kidx4iyy said:
iigakusei":kidx4iyy said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

I guess that is why there was so much demand for him in the off-season? That Detroit game was a one-off - of that I am positive. Look, I think Flynn is a good QB, but I trust the coaches that see these guys every day in practice to make the right decision.
 

Scottemojo

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kf3339":7emcc49n said:
iigakusei":7emcc49n said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.
31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?
 

SalishHawkFan

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Scottemojo":60u0bsv6 said:
kf3339":60u0bsv6 said:
iigakusei":60u0bsv6 said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.
31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?
One knew they were drafting Luck. One was trying to grab RG3. One grabbed Tannehill. A couple were in the hunt for Mr. Manning. One in Florida didn't offer him as good a deal as we did. The rest already had QB's they were going with. Who would have grabbed Flynn besides Miami that didn't already have someone lined up? You aren't going to dump a QB with experience in your system for an untested FA. The Niners would have snatched up Manning, but dump Smith for Flynn? No way.
 

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SalishHawkFan":21zxiipz said:
Scottemojo":21zxiipz said:
kf3339":21zxiipz said:
Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.
31 other GMs, some in desperate quarterback straights, saw those same two games and did not chase after Mr. Flynn. How do you explain that he was such a bargain after those two games?
One knew they were drafting Luck. One was trying to grab RG3. One grabbed Tannehill. A couple were in the hunt for Mr. Manning. One in Florida didn't offer him as good a deal as we did. The rest already had QB's they were going with. Who would have grabbed Flynn besides Miami that didn't already have someone lined up? You aren't going to dump a QB with experience in your system for an untested FA. The Niners would have snatched up Manning, but dump Smith for Flynn? No way.

But Smith's never thrown for 6 TDs and 480 yards!!!!11!!11!!1
 

Sgt. Largent

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iigakusei":2wpgf0me said:
Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

People keep saying this. If Carroll and Schneider thought Flynn wasn't very good, then why'd they sign him and give him 10 million?

To me Flynn is a Hasselbeck type QB, not Hall of Fame material, but a serviceable QB that you can win with, and even go to the Superbowl with if all other parts of the team excel. He can read defenses, he's smart, and he can make enough plays during the course of a game to win.

But we'll never find out cause he's holding a clipboard while we throw for 120 yards a game cause we're starting a rookie QB.
 

SalishHawkFan

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Sgt. Largent":1jwhku7b said:
iigakusei":1jwhku7b said:
Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

People keep saying this. If Carroll and Schneider thought Flynn wasn't very good, then why'd they sign him and give him 10 million?

To me Flynn is a Hasselbeck type QB, not Hall of Fame material, but a serviceable QB that you can win with, and even go to the Superbowl with if all other parts of the team excel. He can read defenses, he's smart, and he can make enough plays during the course of a game to win.

But we'll never find out cause he's holding a clipboard while we throw for 120 yards a game cause we're starting a rookie QB.
This.
 

CANHawk

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Sgt. Largent":3gy24gsl said:
iigakusei":3gy24gsl said:
Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

People keep saying this. If Carroll and Schneider thought Flynn wasn't very good, then why'd they sign him and give him 10 million?

To me Flynn is a Hasselbeck type QB, not Hall of Fame material, but a serviceable QB that you can win with, and even go to the Superbowl with if all other parts of the team excel. He can read defenses, he's smart, and he can make enough plays during the course of a game to win.

But we'll never find out cause he's holding a clipboard while we throw for 120 yards a game cause we're starting a rookie QB.

Because that's what it cost to get him in the door and see what he looks like in our system. Same as Charlie. Anything less and he was a Dolphin. Turns out once he was in our door and in our system, he wasn't all that impressive, but at least they took the chance. They paid the money to turn over the rock and see what was there.

If anything I think they deserve some credit for not going out of their way to pound the round peg into the square hole simply because they paid the round peg a bunch of dough. Hey, I too wanted Flynn to start while Russell sat on the bench taking "mental reps" and developing behind the scenes too (preferably as #3 on the depth chart behind Tarvaris if I had MY way), but Flynn didn't win the competition so he's the one on the bench. Tarvaris apparently shit the bed altogether so he isn't even here anymore.

And that's just the way it is. Coach weighed this and debated this much more that anyone here and coach figured that the rookie gave us the best chance to win; knowing full well that rookies will struggle and that rookies can be maddeningly inconsistent. That still speaks volumes to me, regardless of how much y'all think y'all know.
 

kf3339

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Seahawk Sailor":2hcgdvhe said:
kf3339":2hcgdvhe said:
iigakusei":2hcgdvhe said:
Do you not remember everyone saying the same thing about Whitehurst? Could it be possible that Flynn just isnt very good?

Then how do you explain the New Englund and Detroit games performance. You don't post results like that and put him in the same class as Whitehurst! Not at all.

Is that you, Michael Lombardi? If so, please say why Flynn is the better option, not just "HOLY SHORT QUARTERBACK, BATMAN!"

Simple, in those two games he showed himself to be able to read defenses, make adjustments at the line and most importantly move the offense and score points. Would it happen if he starts for us in regular games? I don't know. But I see no reason not to find out. Remember, Hass was sat down by Holmgren. He probably learned more at that point than continuing to play and get worse.
 

Sgt. Largent

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CANHawk":144to9yr said:
And that's just the way it is. Coach weighed this and debated this much more that anyone here and coach figured that the rookie gave us the best chance to win; knowing full well that rookies will struggle and that rookies can be maddeningly inconsistent. That still speaks volumes to me, regardless of how much y'all think y'all know.

I don't think that Schneider and Carroll thought before the season started that Wilson gave us the best chance to win in 2012.

I think they thought that Wilson has a huge upside, and that he's our QB of the future, therefore start him and hope that our defense and running game would keep us in games long enough for Wilson to develop quickly due to how smart he is and how hard he works.

The problem with this mentality is that it can take years for Wilson to develop. So yeah the upside is that in 2-3 years we might be good enough to compete for a Superbowl. The downside is we're banking on our defense and running game to still be dominant years from now.

IMO this is the NFL, you play to win NOW, not in 2-3 years. The players and fans deserve the BEST product on the field now.
 

Scottemojo

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SalishHawkFan":3b9fdlmn said:
It DOES assume the staff didn't make the right decision. Making the decision to start a rookie QB in his first year is almost invariably the WRONG decision if you have ANYONE capable of starting instead. Look at Peytons first year. Look at any elite QB's rookie year when he was thrown into the fire. The teams that do that HAVE to do that. Choice isn't an option. They picked so high in the draft because they already sucked and needed a QB.

But when you've got THREE QB's, one with extensive experience - albeit he'd never improve past mediocre - one with excellent credentials and potential who'd already shown he can succeed in the NFL and one who's a wet behind the ears QB you took in the third round, you're making a mistake to start him.

The results of that mistake are so obvious that even Kearly sees it despite how hyped up he's been about Wilson. The guy is regressing.

Starting a rookie is a gamble. But this was a move not entered into lightly, and made based on the player's potential being much higher than the next guy(Flynn) with a full understanding that the road would be bumpy. And I do not care one bit about all Flynn's years in the NFL, he had precisely as many wins as Charlie Whitehurst before coming here. 132 NFL throws is not a seasoned veteran with pelts on the wall, and the fact that he didn't wreck the Ferrari when he got to drive it against the Lions last year does not mean he can drive the Checker Marathon here in Seattle. Flynn is barely more than a rookie himself.

Last year, Pete made a point of saying that you don't really know what a QB can do until he has over 30 starts in the NFL. He said this in defense of Tarvaris, who passed the 30 start milestone during the 2011 season. Well, this preseason, what did Pete say about Tarvaris? We know what we have in Tarvaris. He really does believe that it takes two full seasons to know what you have. Of course, really crappy QBs andwer taht question a lot faster, see Charlie Whitehurst.

Think about that. Flynn had exactly a 2 start advantage on Wilson, which is now gone, by the benchmark we KNOW Pete uses.

Saying that the game in Detroit should decide if Flynn starts here is dumb beyond the pale, and as dumb as saying Wilson should start because he had the highest Lewin index score ever recorded. With a two game difference in real NFL start experience, pretending that Flynn is some kind of veteran who should have been handed the starter job is a bullshit premise based, not on knowledge of what you know, but a reaction to what you have seen and don't like. Anything has to be better than this is no way to choose your starter.

That said, I don't know if Wilson is going to be very good. I just know he won the job by doing things right both on and off the field. I know that he has made mistakes, but I also know that the flashes of talent from him are there, while he is a tick or two off on making plays, he has not been fooled be defenses as many times in 4 games as Romo got fooled by in just one game last night. Even the 3 picks on Sunday, did even one of them come from him being fooled by a defense? Nope. Not one.

I heard, and said, both of those same tired arguments with Charlie, We need to see what we have on the bench, and nothing can be worse than what we are seeing on the field right now. I was wrong. I have no real reason to assume that Pete has lost his judgement in this area in the meantime.
 
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