I know this is way premature, but as my bitches like to point out, I do all things premature (especially when shooting from the hip).

I find myself salivating at the thought of a Peppers or Mathews type on the Seahawks roster. Not only do they change field position, it's as if their playing offense from a defensive position. Their rush, changes everything. And, yeah, would help an offense with a rookie QB and questionable receivers.

This is year 3, and if this year doesn't work, it COULD be hotseat time for Carroll. He has to know that, so I'm not sure this staff can necessarily afford Irvin to be a project. Even if he lives up to the draft day haters prognostication, 10 sacks, that'd change so many things.

You cant have a losing season, and a draft day pick that drew tons of head-tilts, can you?

Man, they need to manufacture ways to get him going. He's got speed, tenacity and at least in college a knack for finding QB's. There's GOT TO a way to utilize that, outside of a hand down, dont ya think?

I'm with you...you don't take "projects" in the first round.

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@SeahawkGreg



"I will be thrilled with 10 wins.... If we win 14 games, I will tattoo my nuts green and blue!" --13thMan

Well, not at this stage at least.

Sadly it's looking like that is exactly what's going on. He has not impressed me at all. Hope he gets going sooner than later if ever.

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Yet another entry in the "List of Threads that Should Not Exist Before a Player's Eighth Game at the Very Earliest".

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@SeahawkGreg



"I will be thrilled with 10 wins.... If we win 14 games, I will tattoo my nuts green and blue!" --13thMan

I hear ya, man. Watching Matthews and Peppers is a thing of beauty and I find myself envious. I wanted Chandler Jones and he definitely coudlve made an immediate impact. I don't see how a project in Irvin can be that much better than Jones once all is said and done.

Easy there, wannabe mod. The question was can they AFFORD him to be a project. I am not willing to say one way or another. I dont know if he will or wont.

A good rule of thumb is to understand a thread before you criticize it, Sugarpants.

Only safe low first round picks guys! Would JPP been a bad pick? Is Vernon Ghoulston a bad pick? Wait no not what I meant!

Half Kidding aside, I don't think they can afford him to be a project that gives zero value this year. I think that will hurt the team quite a bit. Assuming no one else steps up as the other edge threat.

If he can be fairly effective in part time play by the second half of the year, it's fine in my opinion for him to be a bit of a non factor now. Not that's what I'd like but more realistic expectations. I think it's still early to have a good sense of what he's gonna bring this year. Hopefully some stuff clicks and he goes off a few times. It might take a bit though.

Pass rushers take time, they might have wanted to bring a vet as insurance, maybe even Mark Anderson if he proves healthy.

I think you take the guy with higher upside, I feel while we may feel this is OUR window starting right now, but I feel Pete and John are still very much looking ahead. We have to have a pass rusher waiting in the wings for when Clem is gone. While maybe other picks may have provided more immediate value, Bruce provides potentially huge value at a key position.

So yeah, the Hawks can afford it. Maybe it hurts them at times this year, but I think the end benefit, assuming he turns out, is good enough.

See Montana, he got it. Maybe sound out the words?

When the Giants took JPP, didn't they have Strahan, Osi, and a freak line already?

Well, it depends. If Clemons and Jones produce enough pressure, then I think they can afford to have him have a learning curve this year. If not, and we're relying on him to be a big part of the pass rush, then we'd better hope he turns it on quick.

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Rzzzzz...

Setting the timing of the question aside, it's a legit question. I think some teams have the luxury to pick a first rounder who doesn't necessarily have to make an immediate impact, but Seattle isn't really one of them. This was/is one of my major issues with the Carpenter pick. He may turn out to be a stud LG, but he was horrid at RT, and you'll never convince me that there weren't better options at that position either later in the draft or in FA...or hell, on our roster. Again, if he turns out to be a stud then all will be forgiven, but the immediate impact (postive) I think teams like ours needed did not happen.

As for Irvin? Admittedly, I wanted Cox at that pick, but after some headscratching, I came around to like the pick and can appreciate his potential...big time...but I cannot help but feel he is a project. My sincerest hope is that, like Wilson, now that he's had a taste of NFL athleticism he'll be able to QUICKLY mature and work on all the technical aspects that will be essential to his game. IF he does it quickly, then Pete and John will look like geniuses BUT the way things have looked so far indicate that we'll have to be patient. And let's face it, after a long string of losing seasons, patience is wearing thin.

Objectively, if guys like Irvin and Carpenter turn into high-caliber players, even if it takes a season or two, then I'm happy, but in the short term my teeth are being worn down. My point is this: the team can afford a project much more than it can a bust, but IMO those projects all need to be accelerated.

sure they can. That is IF the secondary really is as good as most on this board think they are. The Clemmons resigning was huge, it takes some pressure off of Irvin. Remember Jason Peirre Paul was drafted roughly the same spot in 2010. He had a whole 4.5 sacks as a rookie, only to burst out his 2nd year with 16. Just because a few players have played well right from the start, you shouldn't be deluded into thinking that everyone is the same. The truth is most players take a year or 2 to reach their potential. Look at Chancellor played sparingly as a rookie, but you can hardly be disappointed in that considering he's now a team leader.

I beleive Irvin will get better each and every game and it may not be until NOV, but I think he'll have an impact on this team. I agree with the above person who said, give him half a season. If he's still not doing anything than give him a hard time. I don't understand the extreme impatience on this board. If a guy isn't playing great right out the gates it's panic mode on here.

Under few circumstances do I think PC on the "hot-seat" at the end of the year. We had the talent to win 8-10 games this year. If we don't reach this range than I'll be extremely disappointed. If we don't get to that number than we'll most likely have our answers concerning the long term status of our QB's.

@Jkent82, spot on just because you and others think our window is open I don't and I'm confident JS/PC are far nearer my stance than yours.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

Hell NO! I want success NOW!

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"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk
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Bitter pill to swallow (but I'm man enough to swallow).

I'm wondering the same thing. Not because I dislike Irvin. I like him a lot, and I think he'll be a good player.

I'm speaking entirely in hypotheticals here, not making projections.

For 2012, yeah, we need him now. 1st round picks don't need to start, but they need to at least make some big plays. The team isn't constructed to survive without a situational edge rusher who can bring the pressure.

Of course, it's dumb to judge a pick by their first year. You draft for the future. But we are in trouble if we don't get pressure from Irvin, and Carroll needs at least a season like last year (where we all think the team is progressing, even if we aren't hugely successful). Just the way it is in the NFL.

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Sarlacc, on comparing .NET to Soccer: And why not? It's a bunch of people running around in circles, feigning pain, and never scoring.

Agree with Montana here. It's one game, and he did get pressure in that game. And to be fair, nobody on the d line except Mebane got much in the way of penetration. But already we have a thread with project and Pete in the same sentence as "hotseat"

Chandler Jones gets one sack in a game where his team is ahead and he's the "should have beenLet's give it a little more time and have a little more confidence in Petes abilities.

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"God Bless the Seattle Seahawks" Cortez Kennedy

At this point our pass rush looks like every year since 84. So, let him play.

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I may be only an amateur psychologist, but I doubt the thread would exist if you weren't worried that he will be a project.

FWIW, I expect Irvin to get more chances against Dallas' offense. Romo doesn't like the quick dink-and-dunk stuff that Arizona used to dodge our edge rush; he prefers to wind up and look for a 400-yard touchdown on every play.

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I think pressure up the middle was even more important than another edge rusher and that's why they got Jason Jones. The combo of Jones with Clemons may improve the rush a lot this year while Bruce gets up to speed.

We will need to draft a younger version of Jason in the next year or so as well, in
my opinion.

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Maybe we already have them in Sruggs and Howard, Both look promising prospects. I taking the wait and see approach. It's easy to get discouraged with what we saw on Sunday. But we went all last year with a mediocre pass rush and still was a top 10 defense. In a few weeks I think we'll start to hit our stride as a team.

Ha! I'm just trying to make sense of the pick and it's the only thing that makes any sense to me. I really like him but the timing is all wrong if your team is at anymore than darkhorse status. DE's are rarely ever immediate hits. But his speed have ever seen anything like it? He just needs a bit of technique and 15-20 lbs of muscle and he may change the position much like L.T. did for linebackers or Ronnie Lott for safeties. That may be a bit of an overreach but with the direction the NFL is going it's plausible.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

This should have just been the first line and I'd facebook like it.

But to the rest of it, they made it clear there was a 4 year plan for this organization. Whether they meant we would be a winning team by then, or it'll take 4 years to become that is unknown. We are on year 3 with a promising young, fiery, and mostly unexperienced defense. It took Carroll a few years to get USC where he wanted it, even if college is a different monster than the NFL, but in respect to recruiting and getting 'what you want' takes time.' IMO there is no way Carroll is on the hot seat this season unless we go 0-16. Paul Allen knew there was a 4 year plan and I imagine he will trust the braintrust til that point. Purely going off talent this team should be a 9-10 win team without any outside factors like lucky breaks. As much as I think we should have steamrolled the Cards, they are 8-2 in their last 10 games, which is tied with only the Pats.

Bruce Irvin on paper is exactly what this defense needed. PURE speed from a hybrid LE/DE type player. His main knock was he didn't have the 'NFL pass rush repertoire' and relied on just being more athletic. So far that seems what he still has, but he is young and very moldable. Every interview points out he is willing to work and improve, and I guess as fans that's all we can hope. We just need to trust we have the coaching to make him elevate his play to what he can be. DE is a tough position for young players since they are going against for the most part, the best linemen in the league, and it is hard to get a JPP or Aldon Smith to immediately make an impact. I personally wanted Chandler Jones because he seemed to be incredibly NFL ready and to this point seems to be just that for the Pats. But they draft very well for value every year, so it is expected.

All in all, a 7-9 team shouldn't just take a shot on a player in the first round for hopes on what he could be. We are unorthodox in a sense where we plug players in to a spot that they can succeed more than any other standard position, and I'm sure the hope for this season is Bruce can learn, improve, and still see a lot of playing time while making some impact. If he can consistently make pressure this year even if it doesn't result in sacks, I think that is enough to warrent a first round draft pick for him.

They did, but just because you don't have the front line strength doesn't mean you shouldn't take the better long term player. I mean you have to weigh things out in terms of immediate impact, overall risk, ceiling, etc, but I'd rather go this route.

Personally I much prefer a long term "willing to take risks" FO than a short term "Win now/keep my job" GM, unless you are legitimately in the closing of your proverbial window. I think things just turn out better generally.

Now I do think Pete and John thought Irvin could impact this year, they said as much. So we probably need to see him do that to at least fill their expectations for this year. At the end of the year I don't think one can say "He's a defensive end, they take a long time to develop, adjust to NFL etc etc" as an excuse for him if he is a complete failure in his role this year. While it's okay not to write him off as a bust and it's a valid response to his career chances, it's not for what he was supposed to be this year. So that would be a disappointment in my opinion.

I'm optimistic he figures it out sooner than later. He's got the tools and the coaching to do it. Course he will probably be in some gray area of production and everyone will have something to say come next year's off season.

I think this here is key. DE's are hard to hit on in general, particularly speed rushers. They gotta take shots to get one as it's tough to win without one. And even more so when your are trying to win via the "elite" defense ground game route.

Yes, since we started a rookie QB, which tells me they think that rookie is the future, this basically becomes a project year with hopes that we can still win big while we go thru the rookie lumps. So we can allow Irvin some time to grow as well.

If Flynn was our starter i'd say the answer was no, as then it woudl be more of a win now type scenario.

I have a feeling that by the end of the season both Wilson and Irvin will be playing like first round picks. I'm also pretty certain we might have to take some lumps along the way and i'm ok with that. Half step back now for 5 steps forward next season.

And I really hope that Carroll allows them to both keep playing thru any lumps that might arise.

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Okay, fair point. I kid because I know you can take it, Buttercup.

They can afford a project about as well as they can afford a game winning drive by the likes of Kolb while they left irvin on the field.

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"Improvement" can come from who you play-

I thought that abomination of a dog avatar was horrible but Kiper seriously? Are you trying to make everyone want to kill you or just being a contrarian for the lolz? Now that I have been here a minute I get your whole modus operandi but there are limits.

"Loser" symbol or not that man knows less about football than my non-sports liking Aunt.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

No, wrong yet again, We had the game winning drive, but did not execute.

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I didn't bother reading everyones posts, but the answer is NO, NEVER, HELL NO! !st round picks should be first year starters that make some sorta impact on your team. Unless it's a QB that you wanna understudy. Save the projects for the 5th round and later.

Why let facts stand in the way of another chance to be a "Debbie Downer". I admit that I'm pragmatic and want results before I fully jump in but Verndog is ridiculous and does it on purpose in my opinion.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

This is pretty much the same reason I made that "trade - phone call" thread a couple weeks ago. There might have been some opportunity out there, particularly with the Eagles, to add a pass rusher to this roster as insurance for Bruce Irvin. Much of the season is still ahead of us, but we are more than 1 game in. We've had 4 preseason games of Irvin to look at and lots of TC reports. The expectation was that Irvin probably would struggle in 2012, but there was hope that he could be an Aldon Smith/Von Miller story. So far, it appears very likely that he's going to be the former, not the latter. And that's a problem, because Seattle has banked on Irvin to be the latter- as evidenced by how they provided no competition whatsoever for the Raheem Brock role.

Seattle said that pass rush was their top priority during the offseason. They repeated this over and over. Before and after the draft, Carroll talked about finding his Von Miller. Seattle had chances to sign or trade for other pass rushers and didn't. I look at that body of evidence, and I think it's pretty clear that they didn't plan on Irvin waiting until year 4 to start contributing.

I say this as a huge pre-draft fan of Irvin's, and a huge fan of this FO, but I think that calculation was a big gamble, and it already looks like it is a gamble they will lose. Irvin has special talent as a pass rusher, but he might be even more raw than project-passrusher-posterchild JPP was in terms shedding blocks. In TC, he was getting stonewalled by Alex Barron. In the preseason, he was a total non-factor until the final (and most meaningless) preseason game, a game against Oakland, who is terrible and wasn't even really trying in that game. Now we've seen him be a non-factor against AZ, who had a terrible and injury depleted line and a terrible QB.

Does this mean Irvin will bust? Of course not. Does this mean that we can definitively say that Irvin will not be Von Miller right away? No, we can't even say that, because stranger things have happened. Can we say that it's looking doubtful that he'll be Von Miller? Yeah, that's probably safe to say at this point, as early as it is. He looks years away from being a complete pass rusher right now.

Can Seattle afford for Irvin to be a project? No, not really. As said above, Carroll's language and expectations were that the pass rush was a major problem- a top priority. It's not something he hopes is fixed in a few years- it's something he wants fixed NOW. It's hard to criticize Carroll though. He had no real shot at Mario Williams in FA. Cliff Avril was franchised. And who knows, maybe John Schneider did make some phone calls around the 53 cut down looking for pass rush help. I'd be a little surprised if he didn't. My only complaint was that Seattle passed on Vinny Curry in round 2, who looks an awful lot like Chris Clemons jr. on tape (fittingly, he went to the Eagles). But Seattle needed a fast MLB, and they had the 3rd rounder reserved for Wilson, so it is what it is.

If this problem continues all season, I hope people realize that we might see two offseasons in a row where pass rush is the top priority. Carroll won't rest until this issue is fixed. As a defensive mind, and as a former DB, he appreciates pass rush more than most. Irvin has a ton of ability, but I think we might have to wait a painfully long amount of time before he cashes in on it.

I do not mind them trying to get him going, as long as they do not do it on our 3 yard line on 3rd down and put him in for Red Bryant who just batted down a pass on 2nd down, and then have AZ run to his side and score a TD when if Red was in it would have been stopped!! Use Irvin on 3rd and long only! I mean honestly I like big red being in there on 3rd downs, he seems quicker this year and he is a ball batting beast!!!!

Good post kearly. I don't necessarily agree with Irvin being the Alex Smith of pass rushers but like you said, stranger things have happened. I don't know why, but I immediately thought of Derrick Burgess when you made that comparison.

I think Irvin will be stellar this season. Maybe 4 or 5 sacks. Some might be disappointed, but I fully expect Scruggs and Howard to put up solid production in the sack department as well (3 or 4 from Scruggs, 2 from Howard possibly) so hopefully that'll keep the pass rush from being completely anemic.

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Too soon to tell. Going to need to see him in some different scenarios against some different competition before I pass anything resembling judgement. I seem to remember being all bunged up with dread after the first few games last year when Clem had bugger all for sacks, but he did pretty alright last year when it was all said and done. Some scenarios and schemes freeze some pass rushers out, and some scenarios and schemes give them opportunities to shine. have to see him against a few different looks before I can have anything resembling an opinion.

I'll get back to you with an opinion of some sort after week four. Hopefully he has about 4 or 5 sacks by that point and it'll be a big Bruce Irvin love-in around here by then.

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well no wonder that alex smith was such a bad quarterback for so long..that was the real reason.

First post guys. Happy to be starting now. My belief is that yes the hawks can wait a half season or a full one for irvin to light a spark and learn his techniques. I mean, if the hawks play D like they did last year would u give up on PC's plan for it? We have clemons still (looks super legit) and up graded innterior pressure with jones.

I love everyone's armageddon spirit...AFTER ONE GAME! it was predicted and fully implemented by everyone. chill lets see what happens in a few weeks.

OR WE CAN OVERREACT TO THAT RIGHT NOW -_-'

two words... mario f'ing williams

Do you think he would have any more success if he was in more of a Mathews role? Like a outside 3-4 linebacker, move him around, or even stack him over Clem at times. I feel like the coach need to get more creative with him, they are just lining him up and hoping his speed works. Maybe his football IQ will improve over the season and the game will slow down for him. At this point he looks to be overwhelmed and over thinking.could be why the coaches are keeping it simple for him.

Standing him up sounds like a good idea I also like the idea of Clemons and Irvin stacked. That could be a potent combo off the edge.

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"Tracy Porter lost his manhood when Marshawn stiff armed him" some dude on youtube.

I really like this idea. However I think the real issue is that Irvin does not know how to engage blockers. If you watch Mathews he does a great job using his hands once hes engaged with the linemen. It looks like Irvin just tries to run by them and if doesn't work he quits.

That's a great point. It's almost like he is back at West Virginia being put on the line trying to outmuscle 310 pound behemoths. He's not ready for that. He should be in more of a Wide 9 look to give his speed an advantage.

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I don't think he is a project, a project normally is not set to start game 1 and continue to be in the starting roster. He is a rookie and will have to go through some downs before he figures thinks out, I think he will be just fine after another 4 or 5 games, he has the physical tools, he just need to understand the speed and tune his mind, when to rush, whether it is on snap or delayed rush, but he is definitely a fast guy. He has only potential to go up, how soon is the question, that we will have to see.

Mario Williams?
Look, I understand where you guys are coming from to some degree, I too would like to see a glimps or two from the kid showing why PC & JS made the decide to take him (he wouldn't have made it to the second round), so apparently they scouted him pretty hard, and felt he was going to be solid,,Maybe not right away, but somewhere down the road.
PC and JS pick for football smarts as well as self motivation and athletic abilities, and so far they've found some real gems, so, "I'm In"

I think maybe we can. I went back today and watched the defense during the second half of last week's game, and I noticed something surprising. Our four man pass rushing was actually working. With one or two exceptions, Irvin was not a part of that. With Clemons on one side and Bryant on the other, we were actually getting a solid amount of pressure. When I was trying to remember the game, I thought we had been sending blitzes regularly, but that wasn't true.

For the record, while Irvin had one near sack (which caused the interception that Clemons' offsides penalty nulled), he definitely didn't get regular pressure. Everyone already knew that, but it leads to my next point: I'm not sure we can afford for Irvin to not be a project. If they try to force the issue with him, I think we'll be worse off than if they rely on the actual disruption that Bryant causes. I'm okay with Irvin getting his reps, but at this point I think it would be better if they keep him on the bench in the red zone and other critical situations. There's no reason they couldn't work him in as he progresses. The guy actually has some potential to hurry the QB so it's not a total waste as long as we're not talking about do-or-die situations.

Yes, we can afford a "project." Of course, that depends a bit on how you define the word.

IIRC, Irvin was picked specifically to play the LEO position. Since we re-signed Clemons, that means that our LOTF can step back a bit from the spotlight of being a mid first round pick and take some time to learn the pro game. In fact, he'll not be playing LEO much while Clem is healthy. He'll be playing other roles he's not as well suited for physically. I trust that the coaching staff are looking for ways to use Irvin productively.

Sacks come in bunches and streaks, on the team and on the individual level. Clem has been our best pass rusher for two years had 11 sacks per season. That means that he did not get a sack in every game. Even the best sack artists in NFL history seldom (never?) got a sack in every game of a season. The fact that Irvin didn't get a sack against AZ does not concern me much. I think he'll come around, and soon. I expect a half dozen sacks from him this year, at least.

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Loaded question.

A lot of how you might respond is how you expect a "project" to perform in his rookie season. If you expect it to be subpar from Week 1 through Week 16, then no, I imagine you can't afford that type of project.

If you expect struggles early on and then growth which leads to promising production later in the season, then yeah, I think that's a project you take on if the potential payoff is big.

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If Irvin has potential at OLB, you can expect him to end up there once a real DE is found. Carroll is always moving guys around and tweaking things. He enabled Bryant, experimented with Curry, adjusted to Mebane's strengths (he looked good in Arizona), all kinds of stuff. If Irvin's a Clay Matthews type waiting to happen, Pete will figure it out. Malcolm Smith certainly has no monopoly on the position yet. (And I agree that Irvin should be used as a Wide 9 for the moment, not lined up tight - several others made that point earlier in the year).

I'm cautiously curious about what Greg Scruggs can do at DE. You never know who's going to emerge on this team.

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