i personally think hasselbeck is done as far as being a probowl QB in this league. could he be an effective, winning QB still? maybe. the way i see it, whitehurst should be given every opportunity to win the job in training camp. if he can't, then hasselbeck should start the season as the starter. if he doesn't perform in the first 5 games, he should be benched. either way you look at it, whitehurst needs to get alot of playing time this season or what was the point in trading for him? here's the problems i have with the QB situation: 1) they should've made a definitive decision in the offseason on who was going to be their future franchise QB, play them immediately, and dispose of the others. to me, they didn't do that. 2) they traded for a QB who nobody knows what he can do and they payed alot for him with picks and money. that QB then needed to be named the starter and the other veteran should have been traded while he still had good value. 3) they decided against drafting a QB in the draft assuming the top guys wouldn't be available to them and the rest weren't as good as whitehurst. by doing that, they missed out on arguably the best QB in the draft and they could've gotten him later than expected at a much cheaper price.


the mistake they made was not making a decision between going with the veteran or going with the new QB brought in. you have to go with one or the other. then if your choice was matt, then you stand pat until next yrs draft or you draft one in this draft and groom him to be the QB of the future. now they have the problem of if matt fails, you go with whitehurst. if he's not any good, you have to still draft a future QB, give them a ton of money and you wasted a year. i would've passed on whitehurst, let matt be the QB for the year, and left the option open of drafting a QB in this draft or next yrs draft if the guy we wanted was available this yr.

Hass should start.

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I'm In!


What attracted you to the Seahawks?
“It’s a combination of what I believe the coaches are doing here, the atmosphere and what I think we’re going to do here in the future. I think we’re going to win and win a lot and be a championship team.” – Zac Miller, August 4, 2011

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Quoting Montanahawk05:
the foremost reason, by a long margin, of Seattle's continued struggles the last three years is Matt Hasselbeck. Hass's arm strength has declined to the vanishing point. [b]They're stacking the line and jumping routes because they don't respect Hasselbeck's arm.

How is it you know they didn't do exactly what you just said? They definitely could have decided there was no good option in this years draft and Seneca wasn't (with his learning disability) going to learn this system before he retires. Considering Matts injury history, the last few years, it makes sense to find the best possible option (per they're evaluation of who is available) and that could be why they only offered a 2 year deal. Maybe Charlie (while being the best option) still leaves big question as to his leadership ability. Yes he has a large contract for a back up, but its only two mil this year and only escalates to full value, if CW becomes the starter, I believe both seasons.

i understand the intent of the whitehurst trade sort of..it makes sense if you believe he is your starter. but not if he's the backup even for 1 season. youre not right about the contract. his deal is 2yrs 8mil guarenteed with 2mil in incentives. is that a backup deal or even a 1yr starter, contract alone?? he made 535K last season. then on top of that you give up a 3rd and 20spots in 2nd rd? that tells me, we got this guy to be our starter now, not a backup to compete with the incumbent. it makes no sense, you cant have it both ways. then when you make that trade, you then should trade hasselbeck.

If they thought Clausen was the answer, do you think they would have passed on him at 6? and again at 14? Thinking he would be available at 40? It doesn't add up. Most experts expected him to be gone before our first pick. To me, this only leans more towards the argument, they didn't believe Clausen to be the answer and weren't willing to invest 40+ Mill and multiple years in him. That makes CW look like a hell of a deal if that was they're belief.

i understand that, but if you dont trade for whitehurst, you then have the option of drafting a QB if one you like falls in your lap in 2010 or draft one next yr. if you kept hasselbeck and said he is your starter for 2010, you then groom a drafted guy or wait til 2011. we are paying for 2 starting QBs is my point.

(Unless you have no faith in Seneca and consider Matts recent injury history)

they couldn't stand pat with seneca and matt. if they were concerned about matts injury history, they should've traded him while he had value.

(again, unless you don't like who you think will be available)

then you wait to draft your guy next yr and keep matt. if you believed this, you don't make the whitehurst trade.

( which is way better than wasting the next 4 years, because you drafted a guy you don't believe will succeed)

so you waste 2yrs with whitehurst plus picks, and money while still keeping around your current 35yr old starter? if that doesnt work, you then have to draft a QB, and wait 2-3 years while he develops and lose in the meantime?

my point is you either A) keep matt, draft a QB in '10 or '11..OR.. B) trade for whitehurst believing he is your starter and trade hasselbeck...if whitehurst flops, you can then scrap him and draft your guy in '11. you cant possibly do both and have it be a success. you're paying 2 starting QBs and possibly neither are the answer. you create animosity in the locker room and between both guys. in the NFL you have to one direction with the QB position.

I guess I'm not in as big of a hurrry as some. The way I see it, Matt still gives us the best chance to win now and unless you are attempting to dump the season to be in place for a high draft pick, you try and win every game. I could see the logic, after watching Seneca last year, in thinking, if Matt gets hurt, we are doomed and CW looks like he could be a steal for a Bates style offense, so bringing him in and letting the chips fall were they may, seems logical to me.

I could see this playing out well if Matt doesn't play the whole season or doesn't perform to expectations, CW will have had some time to learn the new offense and become familiar with the guys he will be throwing to.

I think you can open a bigger can of worms rolling the dice and trying to predict the future.

We watched as PC and JS patiently waited to see who was availabe with each pich, rather than trying to trade up to grab someone, who may have been there anyway.

I think its always a smart strategy to go with what you know and see howw things fall.

But we will see.

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Quoting Montanahawk05:
the foremost reason, by a long margin, of Seattle's continued struggles the last three years is Matt Hasselbeck. Hass's arm strength has declined to the vanishing point. [b]They're stacking the line and jumping routes because they don't respect Hasselbeck's arm.

The problem with your point though, is the FO didn’t trade Matt, they traded Seneca.

It’s painfully obvious to me they feel Matt can run their offense and Charlie is a sizable upgrade over Seneca. Now their opinion could change the closer they get to regular season, or by year’s end, and if that happens so be it.

For the time being, the fact we have six running backs, six tight ends, and fourteen wide receivers in camp may suggest our offensive wows last year may be linked to something other than our QB play.

However all this shakes out, this year’s, training camp, preseason, even the regular season should be one of the most interesting (and debated I should think) since Mike Holmgren blew up Dennis Erickson’s 8 and 8 team.

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"Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis."
Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
(St. Augustine of Hippo)

"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim."
(“Ovid”)

lostlobos-

i understand your position as well but why trade for whitehurst and pay him as a starter? it makes zero sense. if you were ok with matt being the starter, fine, but then why the trade for another starter? my point was the organization needs to make a decision on who "the guy" is. i'd be livid if we traded picks and gave starter money for whitehurst if the guy starts 1 yr and flops. in the meantime, we could've drafted and developed a QB by then for 1 draft pick. basically if whitehurst isn't a better than average starter or even worse doesn't get on the field, this trade is a colossal disaster and could set us back yrs. this new regime could be a failure before it even starts. you said you were'nt in a hurry but if you think about it, you really should be.

my goodness, no offense whatsoever to you, but you're not getting it. we traded wallace for a 7th rd pick. we gave up a 3rd, 20 spots in rd 2, and 2yrs 8mil contract for whitehurst to be a backup! how do you justify that? whitehurst wasn't brought in to be the backup for a year. do you understand what i mean? they have to make a decision at QB or we're not going anywhere.

What's being left out is pretty significant detail here. Seattle wasn't the only team involved for CW's services. The Cards were also a factor. This is probably why the contract is as high as it is and the reason for overpayment. IMO, CW chose his team and agreed to terms before the Chargers and the Seahawks settled the trade. Without the initial agreement between the Seahawks and CW the trade doesn't take place. CW was brought in to compete with Matt H for the QB position and also be an upgrade as a backup. If CW unseats Matt in TC then he deserves to start. I agree with the philosophy that the best players should be on the field. If CW turns out better than Matt H, then he should play. Based on history, Matt is the superior player currently. It's his job at this point to lose.

I would like to point out that Paul Allen wipes his ass with more money than Whitehurst is paid. Also, in a year where there is no salary cap and a desire to improve the QB position, I think the trade was reasonable both in draft picks exchanged and salary.

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how exactly did we improve the position? we got a better backup? and our starter is beat up and a year further from his prime. how can you ppl be comfortable with this? this isn't 5 yrs ago when matt was a pro-bowler. let me spell this out the best i can: in the nfl today, if you don't have a franchise QB, you are going nowhere. matt isn't a franchise QB anymore and whitehurst was a franchises 3rd QB. with all due respect, if you don't understand this, i'm sorry, you're not in touch with reality.

You asked this question about a month ago, and I linked it back then. I guess you missed it. Anyway, it was Danny O'Neil who mentioned it offhand in a chat session.

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"I believe there’s merit to the idea that once something in life becomes conventional, it’s no longer the safest path to success." -Matt Waldman
"If everyone's thinking alike, no one's thinking." -Bill Walsh

Yeah I must have, I just don't buy it even still.

O'Neil had to have misheard.

No disrespect (I think you are a great poster), but I hate it when people doubt reporters or question their credibility just because. Its not just you, a lot of people do this. I mean if you are secretly John Clayton or Adam Schefter and have the cred, that's one thing, but we're all just joes who follow the game from our computer monitors, whereas these guys have conversations and sources we can only dream about, and mis-reporting is a big deal that could affect their livelihood. As such I don't make accusations of inaccuracy against them easily, and I tend to trust them.

Do they make mistakes? Sure, but its rare. O'Neil's assertion was very matter of fact, and typically if its just a rumor, a reporter won't do that.

As to the Seahawks turning the offer down, its a mistake, but its not shocking. Carroll wants to win now if possible, and without Hasselbeck, the odds of winning the (very winnable NFC West) division next year approach 0. Would I have made that trade? Absolutely. But I can understand why the Seahawks decided not to. Its also possible that they felt 3rd round compensation was not enough after the deal Philly got in division for McNabb.

I think its also probable that Hasselbeck's status as a bit of a legend here in Seattle had to have played a part in the decision as well. You don't want your brand new administration with the youngest GM in the NFL to come out of the gate dealing away a former great QB for what some fans and radio commentators might see as pocket change. It would have taken some serious stones to trade Hasselbeck, and though it would have been the right thing to do, I get why they opted not to.

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"I believe there’s merit to the idea that once something in life becomes conventional, it’s no longer the safest path to success." -Matt Waldman
"If everyone's thinking alike, no one's thinking." -Bill Walsh

I'm not questioning O'Neil.

I just refuse to believe they'd pass on the deal, maybe they did but I refuse to believe it.

It's called denial and I'm in it on this.

If that were on the table and they said no, I have little hope for this administration so I have to go into denial.

I'm fine with Hasselbeck starting because Whitehurst will probably be starting by midseason due to an injury to Hasselbeck. Whitehurst will have more time to learn the offense.

Thank you and I take no offence; I do disagree with the whole concept of valuing players by draft picks. The NFL draft maybe the world biggest lottery, with only slightly better odds than the one we play. If you follow that philosophy Chad Pennington should be a starting QB not Tom Brady. But that’s a discussion for another time.

The Seahawks traded for Whitehurst to compete with Hasselbeck, something they felt Wallace couldn’t do. The fact they traded second round slots and a third round pick doesn’t make Charlie a franchise QB or even a starting NFL QB.

Now, I have a lot more faith in Pete Carroll and John Schneider since the draft than I had before, but I’ve been around long enough to see some of the best management teams make mistakes. Perhaps they stole Whitehurst (ala Drew Brees) or just maybe they overpaid for a backup QB, only time and competition will tell.

This I do know for sure, if you improve your roster every year and play your best players every year, your odds to win a championship improve every year.

So far, I think Pete and John have improved the roster over last year, I believe they’ll start the best players they have, and I hope they do the same thing next year.

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"Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis."
Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
(St. Augustine of Hippo)

"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim."
(“Ovid”)

Easy, count the Pro Bowl votes he gets. And how is it lame? It's my prediction that he is going to do a very good job, unfortunately a lot of people that make it to the Pro Bowl do so a year after they played lights out.

If you want more "quantification" I'll speculate he completes better than 60% of his passes, has a minimum of 1.5 TD to INT ratio, holds a better than 5.0 ypc average rushing and holds on to more than half of his fumbles. How else do you get Pro Bowl votes? *shrug*

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Joe Vellano, DT, 6'1", 300lbs, 61 tkls 14 TFL, 6 sacks" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc_yzeVi-eU, Mike Catapano 6'4" 271
QB Jordan Rodgers 6'1" 212# 2539 Yards, 60% completion 15td/5int

Thank you and I take no offence; I do disagree with the whole concept of valuing players by draft picks. The NFL draft maybe the world biggest lottery, with only slightly better odds than the one we play. If you follow that philosophy Chad Pennington should be a starting QB not Tom Brady. But that’s a discussion for another time.

The Seahawks traded for Whitehurst to compete with Hasselbeck, something they felt Wallace couldn’t do. The fact they traded second round slots and a third round pick doesn’t make Charlie a franchise QB or even a starting NFL QB.

Now, I have a lot more faith in Pete Carroll and John Schneider since the draft than I had before, but I’ve been around long enough to see some of the best management teams make mistakes. Perhaps they stole Whitehurst (ala Drew Brees) or just maybe they overpaid for a backup QB, only time and competition will tell.

This I do know for sure, if you improve your roster every year and play your best players every year, your odds to win a championship improve every year.

So far, I think Pete and John have improved the roster over last year, I believe they’ll start the best players they have, and I hope they do the same thing next year.[/quote]


very well said. we're in agreement on that philosophy. i guess im just impatient and want to settle this QB situation and dont want it to be a distraction as the season progresses. i believe you'll see what i mean when you hear about a "QB contriversy" all season long. its annoying to fans and the team as you know.i completely disagree with the whitehurst trade. you're first major trade cant be a colossal disaster. that usually spells bye-bye to the new admin. especially if it involves the QB. i agree with the rebuilding thru the draft and it will take awhile but you know the nfl. they preach patience but they don't have any. its win soon or you're gone. im afraid that if this trade is a disaster, PC and JS wont get the time they need to complete the rebuild then its back to square one. we shall see but i guarantee you that all you'll be hearing all season long is about the QB situation and we
'll all be tortured with QB controversy talk. i surely hope im wrong.

If you read my post again you may see that I said "a desire to improve the QB position". I think that desire was predicated on the need to replace Seneca Wallace with a promising young QB that better fits Bates system and has the potential, unlike Wallace, to start after learning the system and being tutored by Hasselbeck. Pete Carroll obviously thinks that Whitehurst was his guy because his talents fit better than other FA's available and also has better potential than any QB's in the draft.

I understand your statement that "without a franchise QB, you are going nowhere." However, the bottom line IMO is that franchise QB's do not grow on trees and as such must be found early, before they become a franchise QB. If you go after an established franchise QB you'll pay a mint in draft picks and cash. To obtain a future franchise QB (before he becomes a franchise QB) obviously requires exceptional ability to research and evaluate all options available. I think this is what PC and JS did and based on their evaluations, Whitehurst was their guy. I believe they felt he was probably better than what the draft picks traded to aquire him would have brought and they didn't see a draftable QB to their liking. I would be interested to know what your solution for the Hawks not having a franchise QB might be.

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