253hawk wrote:Character development in my TV show? Why I never...

Except there wasn't any character development. We learned back-story, but none of the characters changed. Nor was there an overarching theme hinting at bigger things to come. Now, if this was an episode in the first couple of seasons, it's not such a big deal, but it's season 4.5. It's beyond time to get the characters doing something rather than 'fleshing' them out.

Carl's development was in the form of transitioning from a child to adolescence. He has the classic rebellious blow-up at his father, chiding him for all of his past decisions and defying him at every turn -- not stopping, not eating, not following up on safety precautions, not heeding the warning of wandering off alone -- and it nearly costs him his life, twice. He thinks he's a man until he thinks Rick's turned into a walker, at which point everything crumbles away and he realizes that he can't do it by himself. Yet not a day before, he said he'd be better off if Rick were dead. He had to kill his mother during childbirth and he thinks his baby sister is dead. Most every other father figure in his life is dead and Rick is all he has left. When faced with the decision to kill his father, the child-side wins over (for now) as he realizes that Rick is only trying to protect him because he is all that Rick has left, too -- not because he doesn't see him as a man.

Michonne's is one of acceptance. She was seemingly successful, vibrant, had a warm family yet has been the most isolated and private character of the series going all the way back to when she found Andrea. She was always fine with just surviving alone because she did it well and wanted to forget her past and prevent getting hurt again; she even spots Rick's boot print in the mud and passes up on tracking them down because she figures she's better off. Her dream reminds her of when she was happy and she realizes she'll never have that feeling again by going it alone and just surviving for the sake of survival. That's not living; she can't live on her own.

Not really sure 'where' viewers expect the show to go immediately after their home for the past year or so just got destroyed. When characters are splintered into groups by the plot, it's always about development. We'll jump around a bit between the groups, finding out a little bit more about what makes them tick when the pressure is cranked up (there hasn't been much between the farm and the prison save for some obligatory zombie-killing fan servicing scenes) until the next major obstacle presents itself. The show isn't about zombies, it's about the characters and their hard struggles together against a seemingly inevitable fate. That's what makes it such a great drama.

Characters can grow for as long as they're alive. Locking them into static behaviors from the first season or two would be dull as hell, especially as the group dynamic changes so regularly from deaths and new blood being added to it.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but don't act like I'm dumbing down the show and just want action. It might make you feel smarter to say something like that, but it's a cheap comment. Mostly because everything you said about Carl and Michonne has been pretty clearly obvious since season 3.

As I mentioned, this is the type of setup you do in the first couple of seasons, because you want your characters to move past such basic outlines (and they are basic. Rebellious teen, reticent badass with a family past). It's ok to draw outlines in the first couple episodes, because it gives you something to fill in over the course of the show, but you don't need 45 minutes to sum up those 2 traits and solidify them in the viewer's mind (this goes double in the 4th season). Breaking Bad didn't go back and try to convince us that: by the way, Walt's sick, and this is why he's doing what he does. It had already established that in season 1 and moved forward to create depth, so that by season 4, we got some mind blowing television.

The episode was like an episode of Lost - spinning its wheels and trying to pass off 'character study' as an excuse to not do anything of interest. You're right, the show isn't about zombies - it's about the people in the zombie world who have so far wandered then found a place, lost it, wandered, then found a place. No theme, no purpose, very little difference in their outlooks or as the effect of their actions. I've actually enjoyed the show so far, all told, but I did notice the pattern. I'm starting to get a Lost vibe, though. Like Lost, I really don't care about the main characters that I'm supposed to like,(except for Daryl), and I'm starting to get the impression they have no idea what to do with this huge world that has so much potential. If you're content to let Walking Dead waste its time on a teenager's histrionics, then I'm glad you enjoy it. But for me, it's a huge letdown, (For instance, why do something interesting with the plague in the first half of the season rather than drop it for another showdown with the Governor?) and it hints at a network that's trying to milk the cow.

Edit: Also the significance of Carl not killing his dead involved a terrible act of writing because of its implications: Carl had already put down his mother after she had just given birth. He must have really hated her if he couldn't do the same to his dad. Otherwise, it's a retcon because that moment showed that Carl had already grown up in a sick, sick world, and now they're trying to throw him back to a different emotional state.

The last episode seemed reasonable to me, I mean they just had the most traumatic, epic, biggest event happen (bigger than the farm exodus) that has happened in the show so far... right now the its like the quiet after an explosion so to speak. I'm not sure what else anyone expected.

We're dealing with the fallout, Rick's people are scattered, destroyed and in shock. They need to recover. That is the story.

From what I remember of the comic, none if it surprised me, seems the story line is right on track from the book.

I liked the Michonne backstory, her having a kid explains the relationship between her and Carl... Carl is going to die at some point and Michonne is going to snap. What happens to Carl in the comics? I only made it to right when they escaped the prison in the comics. Don't worry about spoiling with the Comic book. The show doesn't follow it exactly, so its cool. I believe that Laurie was killed by the governor while pregnant (or carrying the baby) when the Governor attacked the prison.

KINGGRUMPY wrote:I liked the Michonne backstory, her having a kid explains the relationship between her and Carl... Carl is going to die at some point and Michonne is going to snap. What happens to Carl in the comics? I only made it to right when they escaped the prison in the comics. Don't worry about spoiling with the Comic book. The show doesn't follow it exactly, so its cool. I believe that Laurie was killed by the governor while pregnant (or carrying the baby) when the Governor attacked the prison.

Spoiler Alert from comics..... dont look down














The comic is currently at #121, I think they got kicked out of the prison by the Governor at #48, so a lot has happened. But Carl is still alive, as is Michonne, Rick(of course), Andrea, Sophia, and Maggie.

Lizzie is a interesting development, not sure anyone will wannna mess with her.

Bobblehead wrote:Lizzie is a interesting development, not sure anyone will wannna mess with her.

That kid is a mess.

Did we just get introduced to the new villains? can anyone that has read the comics tell me? PM if you think its a spoiler.

Throwdown wrote:Did we just get introduced to the new villains? can anyone that has read the comics tell me? PM if you think its a spoiler.

In the comics, Abraham is one of Rick's biggest allies. They made him seem sorta villainish in his quick intro but I doubt they'd make him bad since he's a fan favorite.

Now entering the safe zone

Few thoughts....

So much potential but it just continues to be dragged down by spotty writing that has characters do things which don't make sense. Rick crawling at Carl acting like a zombie. Carl constantly being an idiot just to barely get away without his leg getting bit. Once or twice an episode someone gets surprised by a zombie coming out of no where that ends with them on the ground out of breath. Why would Tyreese ever leave the girls alone in the woods when he hears a random scream that COULD be someone they know? Even if it was someone from the prison, why leave three girls alone knowing full well zombies are everywhere. Sure it gave Lizzie her choking Judith moment which was well done but really? Same with having a zombie faintly resemble Glenn on the bus when Maggie is killing everything. If they are going to do things like that, have the balls to go through with it more than just on (mid)finales instead of drama that 95% of the time ends up being unnecessary. Good shows that have lots of major cast death like The Wire and Game of Thrones don't need huge set ups and hit you with a big death when you least expect it. Her having to kill Glenn would have been a major shock (not that they needed to, I like Glenn for the most part). She also easily could have killed all of them, realized Glenn isn't there, still have an emotional scene not finding him, and transition to Glenn waking up instead of sneaking a look-a-like in. It feels like they're trying to force tension that ultimately leaves you scratching your head rather than putting you in the moment. The only time I thought I would be surprised by a death was Glenn during the virus but he ended up living. (Also what happened to the virus? No more zombies eyes are bleeding...)

As far as Lizzie goes, anyone who read the comics think they are doing the Ben story line through her? I won't say any spoilers but it gets pretty dark. All the parallels are too close for it not to be IMO or at least a version of it. I think we'll find out Carol covered up for her killing Karen and the other guy.

I'm excited for Abraham. His character is bad ass and Michael Cudlitz is a solid actor. His addition makes me think a few more characters will be killed off this season though.

Even with spotty writing sometimes, the story at least has a direction and is layering in mostly interesting story lines. I definitely like this season more than anything since season 1. I'm hoping Scott Gimple starts to hit his stride and the year experience bleeds into next season. I doubt it's possible but I would love for AMC to keep Breaking Bad writers in house and have them help out with TWD. Most are probably working on their own projects now though with all their success.

twisted_steel2 wrote:

KINGGRUMPY wrote:I liked the Michonne backstory, her having a kid explains the relationship between her and Carl... Carl is going to die at some point and Michonne is going to snap. What happens to Carl in the comics? I only made it to right when they escaped the prison in the comics. Don't worry about spoiling with the Comic book. The show doesn't follow it exactly, so its cool. I believe that Laurie was killed by the governor while pregnant (or carrying the baby) when the Governor attacked the prison.

Spoiler Alert from comics..... dont look down














The comic is currently at #121, I think they got kicked out of the prison by the Governor at #48, so a lot has happened. But Carl is still alive, as is Michonne, Rick(of course), Andrea, Sophia, and Maggie.

Is rick still alive? I gotta catch up... Haha, I've enjoyed the comic storyline over the show thus far

mistaowen wrote:Few thoughts....

So much potential but it just continues to be dragged down by spotty writing that has characters do things which don't make sense. Rick crawling at Carl acting like a zombie. Carl constantly being an idiot just to barely get away without his leg getting bit. Once or twice an episode someone gets surprised by a zombie coming out of no where that ends with them on the ground out of breath. Why would Tyreese ever leave the girls alone in the woods when he hears a random scream that COULD be someone they know? Even if it was someone from the prison, why leave three girls alone knowing full well zombies are everywhere. Sure it gave Lizzie her choking Judith moment which was well done but really? Same with having a zombie faintly resemble Glenn on the bus when Maggie is killing everything. If they are going to do things like that, have the balls to go through with it more than just on (mid)finales instead of drama that 95% of the time ends up being unnecessary. Good shows that have lots of major cast death like The Wire and Game of Thrones don't need huge set ups and hit you with a big death when you least expect it. Her having to kill Glenn would have been a major shock (not that they needed to, I like Glenn for the most part). She also easily could have killed all of them, realized Glenn isn't there, still have an emotional scene not finding him, and transition to Glenn waking up instead of sneaking a look-a-like in. It feels like they're trying to force tension that ultimately leaves you scratching your head rather than putting you in the moment. The only time I thought I would be surprised by a death was Glenn during the virus but he ended up living. (Also what happened to the virus? No more zombies eyes are bleeding...)

As far as Lizzie goes, anyone who read the comics think they are doing the Ben story line through her? I won't say any spoilers but it gets pretty dark. All the parallels are too close for it not to be IMO or at least a version of it. I think we'll find out Carol covered up for her killing Karen and the other guy.

I'm excited for Abraham. His character is bad ass and Michael Cudlitz is a solid actor. His addition makes me think a few more characters will be killed off this season though.

Even with spotty writing sometimes, the story at least has a direction and is layering in mostly interesting story lines. I definitely like this season more than anything since season 1. I'm hoping Scott Gimple starts to hit his stride and the year experience bleeds into next season. I doubt it's possible but I would love for AMC to keep Breaking Bad writers in house and have them help out with TWD. Most are probably working on their own projects now though with all their success.

I agree with everything you said, some really odd writing at times. For example, I don't think I'll ever get over how the show treated Andrea's character versus the comic, I mean really? What was the point.

The Lizzie/Ben thing is interesting. The show seems to touch on the same stories/or situations as the comics, but sometimes just uses different characters, so I could totally see that.

But honestly I love the comic, I love the show, even with the holes, and questionable writing, I still wouldn't miss it.

mistaowen wrote:Few thoughts....

So much potential but it just continues to be dragged down by spotty writing that has characters do things which don't make sense. Rick crawling at Carl acting like a zombie. Carl constantly being an idiot just to barely get away without his leg getting bit. Once or twice an episode someone gets surprised by a zombie coming out of no where that ends with them on the ground out of breath. Why would Tyreese ever leave the girls alone in the woods when he hears a random scream that COULD be someone they know? Even if it was someone from the prison, why leave three girls alone knowing full well zombies are everywhere. Sure it gave Lizzie her choking Judith moment which was well done but really? Same with having a zombie faintly resemble Glenn on the bus when Maggie is killing everything. If they are going to do things like that, have the balls to go through with it more than just on (mid)finales instead of drama that 95% of the time ends up being unnecessary. Good shows that have lots of major cast death like The Wire and Game of Thrones don't need huge set ups and hit you with a big death when you least expect it. Her having to kill Glenn would have been a major shock (not that they needed to, I like Glenn for the most part). She also easily could have killed all of them, realized Glenn isn't there, still have an emotional scene not finding him, and transition to Glenn waking up instead of sneaking a look-a-like in. It feels like they're trying to force tension that ultimately leaves you scratching your head rather than putting you in the moment. The only time I thought I would be surprised by a death was Glenn during the virus but he ended up living. (Also what happened to the virus? No more zombies eyes are bleeding...)

As far as Lizzie goes, anyone who read the comics think they are doing the Ben story line through her? I won't say any spoilers but it gets pretty dark. All the parallels are too close for it not to be IMO or at least a version of it. I think we'll find out Carol covered up for her killing Karen and the other guy.

I'm excited for Abraham. His character is bad ass and Michael Cudlitz is a solid actor. His addition makes me think a few more characters will be killed off this season though.

Even with spotty writing sometimes, the story at least has a direction and is layering in mostly interesting story lines. I definitely like this season more than anything since season 1. I'm hoping Scott Gimple starts to hit his stride and the year experience bleeds into next season. I doubt it's possible but I would love for AMC to keep Breaking Bad writers in house and have them help out with TWD. Most are probably working on their own projects now though with all their success.

Great post. Sunday's episode caused me to yell at the TV because of characters doing stupid things...AGAIN. After 4(ish) years of apocalypse, everyone who's still alive would be a damn commando. No lowering your gun DURING a zombie fight to watch an emotional reunion.

Okay.

Still not much happening. It's become clear the second half of season 4 was an attempt to develop characters besides the main core while making Terminus the eventual destination for the start of season 5. I'm sure one or two characters will be killed off dramatically and then all the groups will link up. It's too bad the writing staff can't make intelligent conversations, making this second half mostly a time filler with some zombie death. The drastic change in pacing from the beginning of the season is upsetting. I wish Bob got more time this season. He feels much more authentic of an actor than most of the cast even if the dialogue isn't great. Maybe that's just me remembering him as D'angelo Barksdale in the Wire.

More stupid decisions to push the plot forward like Maggie leaving alone for zero reason even though Bob agreed he was going to stay with her and then hiding between dead bodies perfectly in view for Sasha. Daryl after four years of being cautious without question opens the door because it was a dog earlier even though you can see zombies outside it. Whatever.

I think it's the same crew that was in the house with Rick a few episodes ago who picked up Daryl at the end. Not sure how they will tie in, maybe they are from the Terminus? The Hunters eventually? My gut is telling me Beth was developed to be killed off soon by whoever was in the car. Still waiting for the cannibals to show up.

^^ I think Daryl's going to skin whoever was in that car... whether Beth turns up alive or not.

Edit: I didn't realize this isn't the shack when i posted this pic, feel free to remove it if needed mods.

I don't require every show that I watch have good writing. Post-apocalyptic setting with zombies, greasy hair and guns is entertainment enough for my daughter and I to bond for an hour before the school week begins.

Emily Kinney could get it...

Throwdown wrote:Emily Kinney could get it...

Co-signed. It's crazy that she is 28 right? They make her look young in the show but she still looks young in real life.

I hope Carroll feeds that little brat that tried to suffocate the ass kicker to some zombies.

SacHawk2.0 wrote:I hope Carroll feeds that little brat that tried to suffocate the ass kicker to some zombies.

I was more angry about her killing the bunnies

POSSIBLE SPOILER....

















So, I googled Terminus after watching the episode. Terminus was Atlanta's original name. You would think that they would come up with a better name if in fact they are headed back to Atlanta...

I completely forgot to watch on Sunday, and when I remembered today, I thought about reading the recap instead.

Should've gone with my first impulse.

Sure glad they tried to make us think Sasha and Maggie died. But that would've made the show interesting and the writing hard.

Sarlacc83 wrote:I completely forgot to watch on Sunday, and when I remembered today, I thought about reading the recap instead.

Should've gone with my first impulse.

Sure glad they tried to make us think Sasha and Maggie died. But that would've made the show interesting and the writing hard.

I was more inclined to think they'd find Bob wandering around with intestines hanging... Guess we were both disappointed.

I did not see that coming...

Wow, this was the darkest episode of the series so far. Messed up, for sure.

Best episode of the season, maybe of the series to me.

Throwdown wrote:Best episode of the season, maybe of the series to me.

Agreed

Only two episodes left this season. Just enough time for everyone to finally get to Terminus.

The preview doesn't look too promising. They set the bar high with this one.

ending was awesome! thought it was going to be a boring episode when it first got going...

Need a babysitter?

jawilljr wrote:Need a babysitter?

That's just wrong. Haha

Really solid episode I'd say, it's just too bad most of the second half has felt like filler. It was written by the shown runner Scott Gimple and he wrote most of the prior good episodes in past seasons, so it makes sense the dialogue felt improved. Carol did a terrific job acting. Preview for next week looks like it's going to keep ramping up the intensity to the finale which is what the show does best.

Also, burning zombies? That was awesome. Best zombie interaction since season 1.

Terminus creeps me out...

I'm really interested to see what Daryl does to this group of ruffians...

Throwdown wrote:Terminus creeps me out...

Yeah, I've seen some memes floating around about Terminus... Possible spoilers so I won't share.

Throwdown wrote:Terminus creeps me out...

Yeah, that lady looks like she's going to fatten them up for filleting time... I think next week has some wild twists in store.

Throwdown wrote:Terminus creeps me out...

that's what I said when I saw that creepy old lady

Tasha Yar got old! Sure hope the finale makes up for some slow episodes....

My suspicion is that the people there are cannibals. At least that's the feel I got at the end.

The finale looks like it's gonna be a good one though. Can't wait for it.

I'm also getting a canniblistic vibe from that Terminus lady.

Terminus = Government/Illuminati & secret experiments.

I don't get why Terminus would go through the trouble of posting signs all over the state and running a radio broadcast for people to come on the off-chance they even have a working radio to begin with -- if they're just going to eat them anyway. Clearly anyone who's survived this long has some tangible skills that are worth something...and they're just going to be the meatballs for Spaghetti Tuesday? They had gardens and vegetables all over the place, so they're just going to throw morality out the window and eat people because 'Muricans love their meat?

I mean, I know cannibalism is pretty much a staple of any post-apocalyptic survival scenario, but it'd be really sloppy for the writers to shove it in right NOW, especially for how well-off Terminus seems (no guards anywhere and the flimsiest chain link gate ever.) There is something very weird about that place but I don't think and hope to hell it's not cannibalism.

This finale is crap so far...I doubt the last 2-3 minutes can salvage this

Cannibals?