Seahawks must prioritize O-line?

theENGLISHseahawk":2u9udf5n said:

James Carpenter showed gradual improvement and IMO deserves to enter next season the starter.

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I couldn't disagree more. Carpenter is barely the starter as it is, he is average at best. Saying Carpenter should go into the season as the starter is off the table, unless you mean deserving to start the 1st pre-season game which I would be fine with. Carp isn't even a full time player as it is, he is usually rotated with McQuistan at LG. I would give Carpenter the pre-season to compete, but for me he is on the roster bubble during the pre-season.

13-3.

Also, give Carpenter and Sweezy more time to evaluate their potential.

Carpenter actually being able to workout and condition in the off-season sans an injury from now.

And Sweezy is in his first full year of starting.

Geezus.

Seattle will prioritize upgrade. That probably means OL early. But only if the right guy is there.

Also, what if they have a future HoF type grade on ASJ or a non-short WR like Sammy Watkins? (Both are studs, IMO).

This is a very good year to draft weapons, and IMO Seattle needs one more weapon at WR/TE. I don't know WHO it will be, but with so many good playmakers in this draft there is a decent chance you might have a Percy Harvin or Dez Bryant type "bad boy" who slips into the 20s. I'd very much like Seattle to be all over that if such a scenario were to occur, moving up if necessary. Our OL needs to be better, but our weapons haven't scared anyone this year.

cover-2":3a2f8p0x said:

theENGLISHseahawk":3a2f8p0x said:

James Carpenter showed gradual improvement and IMO deserves to enter next season the starter.

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I couldn't disagree more. Carpenter is barely the starter as it is, he is average at best. Saying Carpenter should go into the season as the starter is off the table, unless you mean deserving to start the 1st pre-season game which I would be fine with. Carp isn't even a full time player as it is, he is usually rotated with McQuistan at LG. I would give Carpenter the pre-season to compete, but for me he is on the roster bubble during the pre-season.

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I wouldn't read too much into the rotating. Seattle rotated at guard the year before too when we had one of the very best run blocking lines in football. Also, I'm not defending Carp but I think "average in 2013" is fair for him, especially given his lack of experience prior to this season. IMO, our biggest problems on OL this year were at center and tackle, and that was almost entirely because of injury issues, which will likely be temporary.

theENGLISHseahawk":3dp6ofr9 said:

Thunderhawk":3dp6ofr9 said:

Yes, we were playing some of the best defenses in the league. But these are the defenses we will see 6 times per year. We have to be better. Why were we bad? Look at the sacks. Russ has to improve on getting the ball out faster but he is getting heat half a second after the ball is snapped. He has looked a little shell shocked lately. His pocket awareness has suffered down the stretch. He is running into the pressure now instead of escaping it. We have to give him more time and we need better lineman to do it.

This is an urgent need. Our LT has missed a quarter of his professional games. Our center has missed a ton. Our guards are brutal and out RT is merely average. To roll in the NFC West we have to win at the LOS and we can't do that without seriously upgrading OL.

I'm kinda surprised I even have to make these arguments...

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I'm kinda surprised you can't see the answer staring right at you. The left tackle, center and right tackle missed a large chunk of the season through injury.

If they'd played all 16 games, Seattle would've fielded an extremely competent offensive line this season including two Pro Bowlers at the two key positions (LT, C).

The depth could be better, but nobody is disputing that. You don't need to draft for depth in round one.

And if you think our guards are brutal, I'd recommend watching the other guards in the NFL. Sweezy has had an extremely efficient season and is developing nicely. James Carpenter showed gradual improvement and IMO deserves to enter next season the starter (with Bowie and Bailey fighting him for the spot).

And when you consider both players had to deal with McQuistan and a 7th round rookie at tackle for so long, it makes their performance even more remarkable.

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I'm with this.. :13:

EverydayImRusselin":2vl0fdwz said:

While a healthy Oline would obviously be better, you have to consider the fact that Okung has only played 45 games in 4 years and Unger has only played 61 games in 5 years. That's not a good track record for either one and makes it tough to count on both of them to start a full season.

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Let's also take into account that Unger didn't become an immediate starter. Chris Spencer was the center in PC's first year and Unger took over in 2011 when Tom Cable arrived. So his lack of games is somewhat down to a coaching decision.

As for Okung, I'm not sure what to recommend. A left tackle takes a very specific skill set and you usually have to be picking in the top ten to get a good one. We're clearly not going to replace Okung. Again, the team needs better depth. We need someone who can do a better job than McQuistan if Okung gets hurt again. But you don't go after that guy in round one.

And if our line remains healthy, we have a good one.

Our line has been healthy the past 6 weeks, right? It looked like the weakest aspect of this team in most of those games. That is why it needs upgrading, even when healthy we rarely won the battle at the LOS in the ground game and our pass blocking was very inconsistent.

You can't force the board, but if a PC/JS approved OL is available in the late first, I think we have to consider it. Carpenter and Giacomini are hardly irreplaceable. Everyone except Sweezy has an injury history.

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

Snohomie":1oajql6s said:

Our line has been healthy the past 6 weeks, right? It looked like the weakest aspect of this team in most of those games. That is why it needs upgrading, even when healthy we rarely won the battle at the LOS in the ground game and our pass blocking was very inconsistent.

You can't force the board, but if a PC/JS approved OL is available in the late first, I think we have to consider it. Carpenter and Giacomini are hardly irreplaceable. Everyone except Sweezy has an injury history.

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

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In my couchchair GM opinion, if there is a solid tackle at our pick we should grab him. If not maybe try and trade back a few spots, recoup some picks and grab a solid G like Gabe Jackson and then take whatever big WR is left in rd 2.

I checked and it looks like a big chunk of Unger's missed games are from 2010 when he was IR'd after 1 game. I still think depth is going to be a big concern. I don't see us resigning both Mcquistan and Breno. Out of the 2, I prefer Breno but if he wants too much money he'll be gone. Let's not forget LJP is also a FA. I'd like to resign him too, but he may have shown too much to be cheap enough. That is going to exacerbate the Oline need though.

Again...do you want a 2nd round talent at OL or a potentially game changing talent at WR or TE? That's what is going to be available at our 1st round pick.

Mtjhoyas":1l5r4qpy said:

Again...do you want a 2nd round talent at OL or a potentially game changing talent at WR or TE? That's what is going to be available at our 1st round pick.

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Or do you want to try and upgrade the offensive line and grab a big WR in the 2nd, or grab a big WR in the 1st and hope the Oline holds up? There is an extraordinary amount of good WR in this draft. I've seen mock's with WR like Coleman falling into the 3rd. I wouldn't mind even waiting to try and grab someone like Cody Hoffman by trading back from our 2nd rd pick.

Here are the OL under contract for 2014 according to overthecap.com

Okung
Unger
Carpenter
Sweezy
Bowie
Bailey
Hauptmann

I see a starting line of Okung Carpenter Unger Sweezy Bowie

Does that seem like enough depth to risk waiting for an OL later in the draft?

Couple thoughts, of course just my opinion...

A. Nobody that should be available to us in late R1 represents anything but maybe a marginal upgrade to the current OL IMO.

B. Outside of the big Dogs at WR, we should be able to pick from a very dynamic group, and get our specific guy (ie body type, skill set, etc). OBJ, Jarvis Landry, Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams, etc.

C. If we wait til late R2, I don't think we will be looking at a dynamic WR. A pretty good one? Sure. But now you are talking about marginally upgrading the OL and WR corps with our top 2 picks. I think this is a really poor way to improve your team.

D. A 1st round pick needs to be a potential difference maker. If it is a LG, that guy better be playing at a pro bowl level and soon. And this idea doesnt just apply to OL IMO, but extends to Safety, LBer, RB, TE. The current history of late R1 OL has been pretty meh. I think getting an average starting quality non-LT OL in R1 is just antiher reason to seek another upgrade in another year or 2. It's an endless cycle of trying to upgrade, when reality shows the quality of OL play is dwindling across the league. The better athletes are being put at DE and DT.

E. And my big point; I think a dynamic threat on the perimeter with a healthy Harvin will make life so much easier for our QB and OL. If a defense has to account for 2 dynamic receiving threats, they can ill afford to just stack the box.

Good dialogue here...my biggest concern is that the yearning for an Elite OL is a pipe dream and would require drastic negligence (both draft picks and cap $) to achieve. Upgrade the downfield and perimeter threats, and I think you see the OL get a boost. Additionally, I think we can find a good raw athlete on the OL in the middle rounds and try to strike gold. Billy Turner is an intriguing option in R2.

EDIT/ADDITON: I'm not an advocate of spending premium draft capital on OL depth. For a clear upgrade to the OL? Of course. DL, WR, i am more than willing to because those types, despite health of others in front of them, without a doubt will see the field.

EverydayImRusselin":3041se5y said:

Mtjhoyas":3041se5y said:

Again...do you want a 2nd round talent at OL or a potentially game changing talent at WR or TE? That's what is going to be available at our 1st round pick.

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Or do you want to try and upgrade the offensive line and grab a big WR in the 2nd, or grab a big WR in the 1st and hope the Oline holds up? There is an extraordinary amount of good WR in this draft. I've seen mock's with WR like Coleman falling into the 3rd. I wouldn't mind even waiting to try and grab someone like Cody Hoffman by trading back from our 2nd rd pick.

Here are the OL under contract for 2014 according to overthecap.com

Okung
Unger
Carpenter
Sweezy
Bowie
Bailey
Hauptmann

I see a starting line of Okung Carpenter Unger Sweezy Bowie

Does that seem like enough depth to risk waiting for an OL later in the draft?

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Snohomie":uksotpo0 said:

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

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Only started one game in 2010 -- unless I'm mistaken wasn't he simply benched?

theENGLISHseahawk":37ma0lyx said:

Snohomie":37ma0lyx said:

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

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Only started one game in 2010 -- unless I'm mistaken wasn't he simply benched?

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I checked and he was IR'd with a toe injury.

I'd like to see more than just depth added. I don't care if they don't pick o-line in the 1st. But I would like a little more emphasis than 7th rounders and udfa projects. I would imagine that a larger ratio of quality o-linemen throughout the league were had between rounds 2 - 4.

At this point, I would like to see them put an emphasis on upgrading pass protection and better recieving options for Wilson. I don't really care how they get it done specifically. But I do care about the quality.

EverydayImRusselin":2j95x1ga said:

theENGLISHseahawk":2j95x1ga said:

Snohomie":2j95x1ga said:

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

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Only started one game in 2010 -- unless I'm mistaken wasn't he simply benched?

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I checked and he was IR'd with a toe injury.

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Which week?

theENGLISHseahawk":1h0r2ojs said:

EverydayImRusselin":1h0r2ojs said:

theENGLISHseahawk":1h0r2ojs said:

Snohomie":1h0r2ojs said:

Also, Rob, Unger was a day one starter. At guard.

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Only started one game in 2010 -- unless I'm mistaken wasn't he simply benched?

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I checked and he was IR'd with a toe injury.

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Which week?

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http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawks/2012897163_unger15.html

Early September so I assume week 2.

Snohomie":2gaiwjq8 said:

Our line has been healthy the past 6 weeks, right? It looked like the weakest aspect of this team in most of those games. That is why it needs upgrading, even when healthy we rarely won the battle at the LOS in the ground game and our pass blocking was very inconsistent.

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Max Unger has been playing hurt (shoulder, other injuries) since week one. He hasn't been remotely close to his usual self. Okung has been battling some injuries too (toe, mostly). Carolina might be the only game Okung has been 100%.

Since coming back from injury, Breno has actually played very well by his standards, and IMO he's playing his way into consideration for a second contract.

Unger's injury related decline this season has been a huge negative for Seattle's interior run blocking. On the positive side, Seattle's pass protection the last few weeks of the season was actually pretty good. If they benched Unger for Jeanpierre right now I think you'd notice a positive difference. Unger has been pretty bad.

I think any line is going to look bad when it's dinged as much as ours has been. I've always been a guy that beats the drum for investing in the OL and if it makes sense here I'm all for it. I just hope that doesn't mean passing on the next Jimmy Graham or Dez Bryant to get the next Bryan Bulaga. Seattle needs more than just OL help on offense.

English, is injury history factored into your evaluations of draft prospects on SDB? If so, why do you seem to ignore injury history as it applies to the pros? You routinely defend the line talent as adequate *when healthy* but they are routinely unhealthy. That's the point. Continuity matters and therefore durability matters. However, I think the line is inadequate even at full strength, as I explained in the OP.

Also, I agree with cover2. My NFL Game Rewind account has Carpenter on speed dial. The effort is seldom there and when it is there the talent isn't. Injuries? Conditioning? Whatever the excuse he is not a starting player on a championship team and I personally wouldn't accept him as a backup.

I've read every post in this thread. Some interesting takes but I'm still fixated on fixing OL first.

kearly":bwl3ssj0 said:

I just hope that doesn't mean passing on the next Jimmy Graham or Dez Bryant to get the next Bryan Bulaga. Seattle needs more than just OL help on offense.

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Totally agreed. This is a year we need to add future quality. 2013's draft was a pretty big whiff as it stands right now. We need 2014 to have a lot of 'the next' kind of guys. Players that allow us to let some of our higher priced/second contract guys move on.

Need notwithstanding, we need to add players that will reload. We should be in a position to draft pretty much any position group.

Kearly - good points (although everyone in the NFL is hurt by midseason, and I don't even think our OL injury issues stand out among the NFL).

But, then it goes back to the fact that our depth was so abysmal and dangerous to Wilson's health that we had to bring back our starters when they are too hurt to play well. I think my view is best summarized as this: we need one more starting caliber player on the OL, and we need a backup LT who can do a decent job, given Okung's history. IMO, OL and big target are the 2 most pressing needs at the moment.

I agree, we can't force the board (admittedly, I say that every draft). I just think we need to be as ready to take a OL as a WR or TE.