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Largent80
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds  Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:59 pm |
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| NET Pro Bowler |
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:38 pm
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Location: SoCal
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Excuse me while I illegally download some John Mayer, then make a c.d. and shit on it. Does that count?
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OkieHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:03 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:48 pm
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Location: Oklahoma City
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Largent80 wrote: Excuse me while I illegally download some John Mayer, then make a c.d. and shit on it. Does that count? That sir, is law. If you don't do that then you will be fined!
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2013 AAR: Chris Harper
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DTexHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:00 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:55 am
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OkieHawk wrote: JesterHawk wrote: So, what about listening to a song on YouTube or Vevo? I'm not paying the artist, yet I am consuming the song. Is that wrong? It's not illegal. Don't forget Pandora, Slacker, Spotify, etc., etc... I don't use slacker or spotify, but on Pandora you are "paying" for the song, either by listening to commercials or by upgrading. The artist is being paid a royalty/licensing fee by the "radio" station and the station gets that from advertising.
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That's weak sauce!
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DTexHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:14 am |
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RolandDeschain wrote: DTex, will you ever put some blame where it belongs; with the supply chain and those in charge of it? Look how long it took for legal sales of MP3s to come around. I pirated music for more than a decade prior to easy and widespread availability of legal music online existed. I've purchased more music legally in the last 3 years than I did in my entire life up through the late 90s, and that includes the time before you could really get MP3s online. I didn't buy very many CDs because you got 1-2 good songs and a bunch of crap otherwise from most artists. From when it was realistically and easily feasible to sell music online on a large scale, to when it actually happened, is like a 15 to 20-year span of time, with the RIAA fighting it every step of the way.
Why are you blaming the consumers for this? A lot of music piracy was CAUSED by the RIAA in the first place, and their refusal to change with the times until absolutely forced to. The MPAA has not been as bad, but they've been bad enough; and they still charge ridiculous premiums for their virtual copies of movies to buy, considering the lack of distribution and manufacturing involved. Half the HD movies are cheaper to buy a Blu-ray version of than it is to buy it in HD online, legitimately; and the Blu-ray copy is better quality, and they profit well from that including manufacturing, distribution, and advertising costs.
The world thrives on making as many things conveniently available to the consumer as possible. Would you be satisfied if you could only buy milk in one container size from one source in your region? Hell to the no. You expect to be able to buy several different sizes at countless local sources, be they convenience stores, grocery stores, etc. Why do you give the RIAA and MPAA a pass on this, historically? Why is it up to the consumer to drag them kicking and screaming into the online sunlight of the 21st century, and let them get away with lamenting over the change they should have done of their own accord 15 years earlier?
Give me a friggin' break. Absolutely the system needs updating, but just because you don't like the way things are done doesn't allow you to take something by your own method. I don't like the way car dealers sell cars at different prices to different customers based on the customers skill at negotiating. That doesn't give me the right to take their property/vehicle. I don't get it when people claim that because something is priced "ridiculously high" that consumers can somehow skirt that and that makes it legitimate to take. I don't think your business/job/career would like it if consumers of your product/service were getting access to it either for free or by some other method that cuts you out.
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That's weak sauce!
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Seahawk Sailor
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:25 am |
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:23 am
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Location: Bothell
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No, it doesn't make it right to steal something, but there is a lot to be said for creating environments that foster crimes of opportunity and necessity. I use "necessity" here in the sense not that books, movies, and music are necessities per se, but rather because if someone lacks the funds to purchase something legally, the motivation becomes the same, whether they're lifting a movie or groceries for the family.
It is not the industries' fault people are stealing artistic media, but there is some onus on them when they create an environment that produces unnecessary theft and then react negatively when it happens. Kind of like parking a brand new car with the windows rolled down and a bunch of goodies in the seat in a bad Detroit neighborhood. Are you to be held accountable for what happens to the car and goodies? Absolutely not. Should you understand you kinda brought it on yourself by your own actions? Yep.
_________________ I blog, I tweet. When I'm not writing or goofing around on Seahawks.NET.
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RolandDeschain
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:43 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
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Location: Kirkland, WA
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DTex, online HD distribution of films costs almost nothing compared to their physical media counterparts. You don't think that if the cost of a product is reduced by 20% or 25% that most of that reduction should not be passed on to the consumer? Let's say oil barrel prices go down by 25% and they lower gas prices by 5%. You think that's fair?
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Seahawk Sailor
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:56 am |
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:23 am
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RolandDeschain wrote: DTex, online HD distribution of films costs almost nothing compared to their physical media counterparts. You don't think that if the cost of a product is reduced by 20% or 25% that most of that reduction should not be passed on to the consumer? Let's say oil barrel prices go down by 25% and they lower gas prices by 5%. You think that's fair? There is, however, a bit of a misconception about digital media as compared to physical media. I see it very clearly in the book industry, and the same holds true for other mediums of art. There are fewer costs associated with distribution, such as storage, shipping, manufacturing, and returns. There are, however, a number of costs which remain equal for both types of product, that often get overlooked or marginalized by folks making this argument. Costs such as author/artist payment, editing, quality control, and other such costs related to the actual creation of product remain identical. And costs from marketing, reviews, publicity, etc., still remain intact. This indicates less of a drop in cost than is assumed by the buying public. Digitalization of art also creates a sort of conundrum with value vs. cost as well. In the end, the consumer is getting the identical product - not the book, CD, DVD, etc., but the story, the music, the movie. The heart of the product is exactly the same. And in many cases, it's presented in a format which is actually better than a physical product. Now you can transport that music in bulk, anywhere you want, in your pocket. You don't have to carry around a large player and a bunch of discs. You can turn on the TV and pull up whatever movie you want, without searching through whatever library of movies you have in bookcases, storage racks, or piled into boxes under the stairs or in the garage. You can carry thousands of books with you on an airplane, and still have room for that carry-on. This implies more value for the price, and yet we expect to pay less simply because it costs less to manufacture. I too want lower prices for digital wares, but the simple economics of it show that supply and demand, not price of production, dictate cost. Price of production indicates profitability and ability to stay in the market as a viable business. _________________ I blog, I tweet. When I'm not writing or goofing around on Seahawks.NET.
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DTexHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:42 am |
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RolandDeschain wrote: DTex, online HD distribution of films costs almost nothing compared to their physical media counterparts. You don't think that if the cost of a product is reduced by 20% or 25% that most of that reduction should not be passed on to the consumer? Let's say oil barrel prices go down by 25% and they lower gas prices by 5%. You think that's fair? Sailor made a few good points about the actual "reduction" in costs. As to your oil prices example, there are so many factors that go into the price of a gallon of gas rather than just the "barrel of oil". Taxes, distribution, storage, refining, ............. oil down 25% and gas price down 5% might be correct and fair.  Of course there is public transportation, or walking/cycling, or move closer to work, choices that you can make if you feel the prices are not "fair". Sailors point about "needs" instead of "wants" is also valid. If the price on a movie, cd, or a song are higher than you want to pay, do without. Too many options for free material is out there. Books and movies are available for "free" (taxes not withstanding) at local libraries. Last time I checked, there is free tv & radio over the airwaves. I know the selection may not be current or the widest, but if you want that, I feel you should be willing to pay for what ever the artist/musician/writer/& distribution channel asks for. Ultimately, we are all individuals with different opinions on right/wrong and we all draw our individual lines in different places.
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That's weak sauce!
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RolandDeschain
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:49 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
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True, Sailor; but the fact that for years, people had to rip their own music CDs into MP3s to make them portable, and the fact that people scanned books in by hand to get digital PDF versions, and the fact that people recorded and re-encoded TV shows and movies to make them portable and convenient before these industries did what they were forced to do many years after they should have done it, has created some bitterness. Also, while how much money you save by digital distribution versus physical distribution will vary wildly, there is no arguing that it's cheaper. @DTex: Yes, I realize oil prices are only part of the price of gasoline. However, the Department of Energy says that 65 cents out of every dollar you spend on gasoline goes to the purchase of crude oil. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-effi ... price1.htmSo, one should expect a 25% price reduction in crude oil to reduce the price at the pump by approximately 2/3rds of that 25%; 16% or so. Otherwise, it's simply artificial price increases to get more profit. Price gouging, if extreme enough. DTexHawk wrote: Ultimately, we are all individuals with different opinions on right/wrong and we all draw our individual lines in different places. ...And some of us are fine with this idea, and don't push it onto others. Others, like you, try to put us in a time-out chair, pushing your perception of morals onto us. I don't tell you what you should or should not do, why do you feel the need to lecture us on your definition of stealing/pirating?
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m0ng0
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:03 am |
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:55 pm
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Location: Battle Ground, Wa
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my biggest problem with piracy is that instead of just stealing it and enjoying it, many choose to share it not just with friends but with ANYONE/EVERYONE. Why? you got what you wanted can't you just be happy with that? Are you afraid of breaking the unwritten code of piracy yet willfully break the code of society? 
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Seahawk Sailor
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:15 am |
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:23 am
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Roland, I'm right there with you on the point that the industry has been absolutely HORRIBLE about effecting change in this manner. They're absolutely causing this to happen to themselves. People want product, and if that product doesn't exist (especially because it's forced NOT to), they're going to create work-arounds, legal or otherwise. And yes, digital distribution is most definitely cheaper. That's fact. There is also price gouging in the digital marketplace. Paying $14 for a classic book, especially one that's been around since the 1930s is absolutely ridiculous, and yet that's what's happening. It's also part of the reason for the lawsuits for this very thing against publishing's "Big Six". There is absolutely bitterness over this, and that leads to more piracy, because hey, screw the man for forcing it on us. It's somehow seen as a viable strategy, though, which completely baffles me. Actually, no, it doesn't completely baffle me. It's a result of short-sighted business strategy to milk everyone for as much as they can, with piss-all thought to the long term health of the industry as a whole. We're currently seeing the book industry construct an almost exact replica of the horrible, predatory contract practices the music industry saw a decade ago. Here is the link to a number of posts by SFWA President John Scalzi's thoughts on that, starting with the post from March 6. They're well worth a read. A little off the subject of piracy to be sure, but they do paint a disturbing visual that indicates where big publishing may be heading. Hint: movies and music a decade ago. And that affects piracy. A lot. _________________ I blog, I tweet. When I'm not writing or goofing around on Seahawks.NET.
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RolandDeschain
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:24 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
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Sailor, remember when Radiohead said "KMA" to the industry, and released their new album on their website with a pay-what-you-think-it's-worth motto, and you could download it without paying anything if you wanted to? http://gizmodo.com/305566/radiohead-off ... ant-to-payI wonder how that turned out... Oh, it looks like it was a success, and that while plenty of people still downloaded it for free, many paid; and it brought the band more money than its prior album. They accomplished that by offering it for free, merely asking people to pay what they felt it was worth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Rainbow ... t_placingsYeah, you can go to hell now, RIAA/MPAA.
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Seahawk Sailor
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:38 am |
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:23 am
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Yep, yep. And sadly, nobody in the industry learned a damn thing. Except artists.
_________________ I blog, I tweet. When I'm not writing or goofing around on Seahawks.NET.
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OkieHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:39 am |
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:48 pm
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RolandDeschain wrote: Sailor, remember when Radiohead said "KMA" to the industry, and released their new album on their website with a pay-what-you-think-it's-worth motto, and you could download it without paying anything if you wanted to? http://gizmodo.com/305566/radiohead-off ... ant-to-payI wonder how that turned out... Oh, it looks like it was a success, and that while plenty of people still downloaded it for free, many paid; and it brought the band more money than its prior album. They accomplished that by offering it for free, merely asking people to pay what they felt it was worth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Rainbow ... t_placingsYeah, you can go to hell now, RIAA/MPAA. Not a fan of Radiohead, but this was genius on their part. I really thought that after their success on this that more bands would do it, sadly they haven't though.
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2013 AAR: Chris Harper
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RolandDeschain
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:58 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
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Okie, I think a large part of the problem is that many artists are tied to their music label for ridiculously long contracts; but I don't know.
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DTexHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:17 am |
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RolandDeschain wrote: DTexHawk wrote: Ultimately, we are all individuals with different opinions on right/wrong and we all draw our individual lines in different places. ...And some of us are fine with this idea, and don't push it onto others. Others, like you, try to put us in a time-out chair, pushing your perception of morals onto us. I don't tell you what you should or should not do, why do you feel the need to lecture us on your definition of stealing/pirating? So can I quote you whenever you reply on a thread that someone is doing something that is wrong/illegal? 
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That's weak sauce!
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Zebulon Dak
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:37 am |
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Once music or video or data is created it exists and nobody has the right to control whether somebody is allowed to listen to it or watch it or use it or not. Good, reasonable, honest people know when & how to contribute monetarily to the people who put in the work to create it. It's the 21st century and that's how things work now. These are the new morals because the old ones don't fit anymore. There will always be people who misuse or take advantage of the system, just like there always has been.
_________________   Tanzania¹²
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DTexHawk
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:48 am |
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Zebulon Dak wrote: Once music or video or data is created it exists and nobody has the right to control whether somebody is allowed to listen to it or watch it or use it or not. Good, reasonable, honest people know when & how to contribute monetarily to the people who put in the work to create it. It's the 21st century and that's how things work now. These are the new morals because the old ones don't fit anymore. There will always be people who misuse or take advantage of the system, just like there always has been. So any politician can use what ever music they want in their campaign and the artist/songwriter can't get them to stop. Good to know! Love these new morals!
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That's weak sauce!
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SacHawk2.0
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:09 am |
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DTexHawk wrote: Zebulon Dak wrote: Once music or video or data is created it exists and nobody has the right to control whether somebody is allowed to listen to it or watch it or use it or not. Good, reasonable, honest people know when & how to contribute monetarily to the people who put in the work to create it. It's the 21st century and that's how things work now. These are the new morals because the old ones don't fit anymore. There will always be people who misuse or take advantage of the system, just like there always has been. So any politician can use what ever music they want in their campaign and the artist/songwriter can't get them to stop. Good to know! Love these new morals! No. It's different if someone is using it for personal gain. Just like if someone is selling bootleg movies and music from the trunk of their car.
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Legal Notice: Any references made by the online entity know as SacHawk 2.0 or "Sac" in regards to "Currystopstheruns" being a pre-op tranny with an anal tampon fetish are entirely accurate.
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RolandDeschain
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Post subject: Re: Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:10 am |
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am
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Location: Kirkland, WA
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DTexHawk wrote: So can I quote you whenever you reply on a thread that someone is doing something that is wrong/illegal? It's impossible for there to be different degrees, or levels of severity with things with you, isn't it? Tiniest infraction: DEATH PENALTY. Murdering 17 people in cold blood: DEATH PENALTY. 
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