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    Not a big shock, he's a huge Giants/Jets fan. He refers to Belicheat regularly as Evil Little Bill. The joke for awhile was everytime the Giants lost, he killed a Stark. Just thought this was kind of cool.
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  • Screw that lazy slug. He needs to finish his job. Quit fawning over him or he never will.
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  • AVL wrote:Screw that lazy slug. He needs to finish his job. Quit fawning over him or he never will.


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  • Parks and Rec already spoiled the end of Game of Thrones for me damn it. Khaleesi marries Jack Sparrow? I guess it makes sense if you read the books.
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  • Martin is like the exact mirror opposite of the Seahawks. Where the Seahawks start slow and finish well, Martin's first three books of the SOIAF series were great, then the writing and the story took a nose dive. He's being propped up by HBO. I'll finish the series because I've come this far, but he's really not as great a writer as everyone thinks.
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:Martin is like the exact mirror opposite of the Seahawks. Where the Seahawks start slow and finish well, Martin's first three books of the SOIAF series were great, then the writing and the story took a nose dive. He's being propped up by HBO. I'll finish the series because I've come this far, but he's really not as great a writer as everyone thinks.


    Perfect quote here. Slogged through the last two books just to see the end, but I'm not expecting much.
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  • he better not kill us too.
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  • If Martin likes us, we're doomed. This is going to be red wedding all over again.
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  • jkitsune wrote:If Martin likes us, we're doomed. This is going to be red wedding all over again.


    It's worked well for us so far, the Purple wedding with the big choking scene was last week.
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  • I enjoyed the Game of Thrones books as much as anybody, but he's overrated as a writer, I agree.

    Then again, most of this forum slaughtered me when I said that Tolkien wasn't as great of a writer as most people think, too.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Then again, most of this forum slaughtered me when I said that Tolkien wasn't as great of a writer as most people think, too.


    That's because you're blatantly incorrect. Have you read all of Tolkien's works? Have you read all of the History of Middle Earth books? You're out of your element here, James. Tolkien is an all-time great, no debates possible.
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    Then again, most of this forum slaughtered me when I said that Tolkien wasn't as great of a writer as most people think, too.


    That's because you're blatantly incorrect. Have you read all of Tolkien's works? Have you read all of the History of Middle Earth books? You're out of your element here, James. Tolkien is an all-time great, no debates possible.

    *yawns to self*

    Alright, Peaches. Whatever you say, bro. BRB while I read 63 consecutive paragraphs describing a blade of grass in the Shire because that's what makes great writing.

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  • You just proved that you haven't even come close to reading all of Tolkien's works. Still, go ahead and pass judgement based on the one or two books you've written. Maybe we should judge bands on just their most popular albums? Or restaurants on just their most popular dishes?
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  • I never claimed to have read everything by Tolkien. Also, it's natural for human beings to judge everyone and everything on what they supposedly are best at, Peaches. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! :)

    If you prefer, I can say "Lord of the Rings' writing quality is overrated to a considerable degree."

    That better?
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    If you prefer, I can say "Lord of the Rings' writing quality is overrated to a considerable degree."

    That better?


    That is better, and I can agree to an extent, however it IS the tone-setter for almost all modern fantasy and high fantasy. No-one's fictional world, mythology and sociology is more realized than Tolkien's. His writing can become a little bit obtuse at times, but given the genre, it's perfect.
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    If you prefer, I can say "Lord of the Rings' writing quality is overrated to a considerable degree."

    That better?


    That is better, and I can agree to an extent, however it IS the tone-setter for almost all modern fantasy and high fantasy. No-one's fictional world, mythology and sociology is more realized than Tolkien's. His writing can become a little bit obtuse at times, but given the genre, it's perfect.


    Without Tolkien I seriously doubt fantasy table top RPG would exist as they drew heavily on his work as well.
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  • Nobody here would likely know what Lord of the Rings is if not the the rise of the hallucinogenic drug culture in the 60s. http://lincolnfreedtheslaves.blogspot.c ... unter.html

    It caught the right wave at the right time, and exploded. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm not bashing it for its success; I just wish people would be a little more honest about the quality of Lord of the Rings itself, know what I mean? It's kind of like, it gets treated the opposite of the way Twilight does in popular culture. Twilight gets bashed for being poor writing and catching on at the right time with a certain major demographic and it exploded in overall popularity, but it's seen as a bad thing by much of society whereas the same phenomenon with Lord of the Rings is seen as a positive and people defend it viciously.

    If I decide to read Tolkien's best writing, what do you suggest? I know I always have strong opinions, Peaches, but they are open to changes and adjustments. My mind is not closed. I've only read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. If you want to "wow me" with what Tolkien can do, tell me the one thing to read by him that may adjust my thinking.
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  • I don't know who ever accused Martin of being a great writer. Hell of a story teller though.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Nobody here would likely know what Lord of the Rings is if not the the rise of the hallucinogenic drug culture in the 60s. http://lincolnfreedtheslaves.blogspot.c ... unter.html

    It caught the right wave at the right time, and exploded. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm not bashing it for its success; I just wish people would be a little more honest about the quality of Lord of the Rings itself, know what I mean? It's kind of like, it gets treated the opposite of the way Twilight does in popular culture. Twilight gets bashed for being poor writing and catching on at the right time with a certain major demographic and it exploded in overall popularity, but it's seen as a bad thing by much of society whereas the same phenomenon with Lord of the Rings is seen as a positive and people defend it viciously.

    If I decide to read Tolkien's best writing, what do you suggest? I know I always have strong opinions, Peaches, but they are open to changes and adjustments. My mind is not closed. I've only read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. If you want to "wow me" with what Tolkien can do, tell me the one thing to read by him that may adjust my thinking.


    The children of Hurin is a good start. It's better if you've read the Silmarillion beforehand, but a great stand-alone tale on it's own. they haven't released the Lay of laithan - the tale of Beren and Luthien - by itself yet, but it's available in unfinished tales and in the Silmarillion, slightly different versions in each. Tolkien was a fantastic writer, and LOTR is a fantastic book. Comparing it to Twilight makes you look really dumb, by the way, even though I get that you were just using an analog to show how popularity can mask poor writing. LOTR is not poorly written by any means. You have to put in the context of the genre to appreciate what Tolkien was able to achieve.
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  • You thinking that I actually compared Twilight to LotR makes you look dumb, actually. I never compared the two. I made reference to the phenomenon of catching the right social consciousness tidal wave at the right time, which both did.

    I'm not planning to read everything Tolkien ever wrote, I said give me your one best shot to convince me he's a "fantastic writer", which based on LotR and The Hobbit, he is not.

    The Silmarillion or The Children of Hurin, which one? Guessing the latter?
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:You thinking that I actually compared Twilight to LotR makes you look dumb, actually. I never compared the two. I made reference to the phenomenon of catching the right social consciousness tidal wave at the right time, which both did.

    I'm not planning to read everything Tolkien ever wrote, I said give me your one best shot to convince me he's a "fantastic writer", which based on LotR and The Hobbit, he is not.

    The Silmarillion or The Children of Hurin, which one? Guessing the latter?


    Yeah, Children of Hurin. Silmarillion just provides context, and the bulk of the children of hurin's story is already in the Silmarillion, but the Children of Hurin book they released is the best version of it, the most realized, anyway. It's not a long read, couple of evenings should be good enough. I couldn't put it down the first time I read it.
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  • Alright, I'll give it a read before too long.
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  • OkieHawk wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    If you prefer, I can say "Lord of the Rings' writing quality is overrated to a considerable degree."

    That better?


    That is better, and I can agree to an extent, however it IS the tone-setter for almost all modern fantasy and high fantasy. No-one's fictional world, mythology and sociology is more realized than Tolkien's. His writing can become a little bit obtuse at times, but given the genre, it's perfect.


    Without Tolkien I seriously doubt fantasy table top RPG would exist as they drew heavily on his work as well.


    You say this as if it was anything other than a travesty.
    Machine-wrapped, with butter?

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  • cdallan wrote:
    OkieHawk wrote:
    Without Tolkien I seriously doubt fantasy table top RPG would exist as they drew heavily on his work as well.


    You say this as if it was anything other than a travesty.


    Actually, I do. Spent a lot of time as a kid playing D&D and other tabletop RPG's. Are you saying that imagination is a bad thing?
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  • Stephen King fanboy thinks Tolkien isn't a "fantastic" writer. Well I'm sold. ;)
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  • *wasn't. obvs.
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  • Tolkien did terrible work editing the original Oxford English Dictionary. That book is so obtuse.

    And does anyone really care about the voluminous contributions he made to the etymology of our language via his expertise of ancient pre-Norman/Saxon barbarian tongues while he was a professor at Oxford?

    The guy clearly knows much less about written English than our very own iRo.
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  • You can have a fantastic story to tell without being a fantastic writer. Go ahead and be smarmy, but there are a lot of people that agree with me regarding Tolkien, even though it's not a popular opinion to have. :)
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:You can have a fantastic story to tell without being a fantastic writer.


    Impossible. Who could ever make such an assertion.

    Zebulon Dak wrote:I don't know who ever accused Martin of being a great writer. Hell of a story teller though.
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  • Aye, I agreed with you, and you're still in here flippin' me crap as if you believe otherwise, regarding Tolkien. :)
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  • It's because you say things like this:

    RolandDeschain wrote:BRB while I read 63 consecutive paragraphs describing a blade of grass in the Shire because that's what makes great writing.
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  • Yeah, but I had a valid point with my facetious statement, did I not? :lol:
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  • Not that I know of.
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  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Not that I know of.

    Yeah, nobody but me thinks that Tolkien gets a little long-winded describing details that don't matter. GOT ME THERE!
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  • Well now I highly doubt that, Roland.
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  • Yet you said I didn't have a valid point when I said that earlier...Hrm...Alrighty then.
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  • I didn't say that. You may have made a point so valid, so epic, so tragic, so poignant, that it will alter the course of humanity for generations to come. I just don't know what it is.
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  • I don't know shit about shit, I've literally read less than 70 books my whole life (the majority in the past 4 years though FWIW), and most of it is probably not considered very good in the realm of literature and what not, but I know of everything I've read nobody developed characters or interesting story lines like Martin. Those first 3 books were unreasonably gripping. I keep trying to find other books that can recreate that feeling and I've yet to be able to do so.
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  • Wow, I didn't know your reading experience was that limited.
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  • Hell yeah. I didn't start reading till fall 2010. Before that I was always just out in these skreets getting this yaper.
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  • I guess you could say that before fall 2010 I

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  • Well, I'm happy to see you join the ranks! :thirishdrinkers:
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  • My only real regret is that I didn't read LOTR before I saw the movies. But back then I just didn't have the attention span for the readin.
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  • Yeah, I've done that with almost nothing. I always try to read the books first for films based on books; at least, if it's a book I'd ever really want to read.

    ...Now go read The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. :devil:
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  • I read The Gunslinger. Wanted so badly to get into but just couldn't. Just way too slow for me. I'm sure it gets better from there but I need it to grab me to keep going. I'll give it another shot at some point.
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  • The first book is rather different from the rest in a number of ways. Read #2, then decide whether to move forward or not.
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  • It's in the queue.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Not that I know of.

    Yeah, nobody but me thinks that Tolkien gets a little long-winded describing details that don't matter. GOT ME THERE!


    Give me an actual example of this. I think you're wrong.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:You can have a fantastic story to tell without being a fantastic writer. Go ahead and be smarmy, but there are a lot of people that agree with me regarding Tolkien, even though it's not a popular opinion to have. :)


    There are also a lot of people who think Nickelback makes the best music ever, and that Tchaikovsky was boring and obtuse.

    Yes, I will be smarmy to these types because they are intellectually lazy, and of substandard intelligence. They are mock-worthy and have created that situation themselves. I don't see them as any less stupid simply because the other cattle share their stupidity.
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  • HansGruber wrote:
    There are also a lot of people who think Nickelback makes the best music ever, and that Tchaikovsky was boring and obtuse.

    Yes, I will be smarmy to these types because they are intellectually lazy, and of substandard intelligence. They are mock-worthy and have created that situation themselves. I don't see them as any less stupid simply because the other cattle share their stupidity.


    You are something special, for real. I picture you as a balding pudgy guy who has money, and thinks that is what makes them special. Keep painting with that broad brush and maintaining your elitist attitudes. :roll:
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