Mass Shootings

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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:01 pm
  • So, how does 70000 equal 3 million per year?
    Tical21
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:02 pm
  • And I'd argue at least half are lying. Even if not, 192 times per day seems way high, just of the people that responded to a survey. No way.
    Last edited by Tical21 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Tical21
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:03 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:And I'd argue at least half are lying.



    Of course you would. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    2_0_6
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:19 pm
  • I think that when asking gun owners how many times they've used their guns in a preventative manor you're likely to get a lot of inflated responses.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:29 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:I think that when asking gun owners how many times they've used their guns in a preventative manor you're likely to get a lot of inflated responses.

    Come on Zeb, think of the children! Isn't one life saved enough?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:32 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:I think that when asking gun owners how many times they've used their guns in a preventative manor you're likely to get a lot of inflated responses.

    Come on Zeb, think of the children! Isn't one life saved enough?


    I mean, it's better than none.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:17 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Nah, they'd crap their pants if they saw cops at their door with guns drawn to confiscate their guns. Unless again, they're simple minded idiots, and like I said win win if they want to die over someone taking their guns.

    Just means less dumb people in society holding up meaningful law changes to save lives.

    Unfortunately, I do think there are way too many gun owners that are simple minded idiots. Very limited subjective sample size, but I recently joined and was expelled from a my hometown community's facebook group. Very right, very pro gun. I knew most of the people, and many of them were among the absolute dumbest people I grew up with. The fact that they're all so pro gun, pro gun violence, while knowing many of these folks can't be all that stable mentally is scary AF. And yes, many of them would be waiting on their property with guns drawn when the cops come. It was my first experience with this kind of group, and I am by no means attempting to portray that all gun owners are idiots. I know tons of responsible gun owners. But you can't even afford to have a few handfuls that are not.

    But like I said, that would never happen. No body is going to homes to confiscate guns. It would too obviously end in bloodshed. There will be events to turn in your guns, lead by pro-gun right wingers. The people that don't turn in their guns will get reminders/fines by mail.




    :roll:

    As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.
    Last edited by KitsapGuy on Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Reason: Language
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    No. I'm more curious if you would personally sacrifice your guns in exchange for no more gun deaths?



    There is a difference between a gun death and a murder by firearm. What would the Police and Military have, sling shots? There are justifiable deaths by firearms.


    All right. All guns owned by private citizens in exchange for no more gun deaths by private citizens. Would you make that trade?

    It's okay to say no, man. Quit being a Nancy.



    I'm not being a Nancy, you asked a broad question that made zero sense. Outside of being selfish for the fact that I like to hunt, ya I would likely do that if in fact the gun crimes, armed robberies, and everything associated with that went to zero.


    I agree with this. As much as I enjoy the hobby and the engineering, I would agree to this in a heartbeat.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:22 pm
  • Lets just say this, two people I used to know were murdered, if they were packing a firearm they would not be, two people I know also committed suicide with a 357 Magnum, they were both depressed about their life but not treated and were fine before when they had purchased the firearms.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:38 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:Shooting someone is not be the only unit of measure when it comes to using a firearm for defensive purposes. Simply pulling out a gun and making the perp think twice about losing their life is often enough of a deterrent.


    Who the heck told you that bullshit? I've carried guns in two different jobs I've had over the last 50+ years, so I have a little knowledge about 'carrying.' There is an old expression, "If your going to pull the piece out, you gotta be ready to let the bullet fly." ( Or something like that.) Thousands of people have been killed for stupidly doing what you said.

    Good freakin' grief, have any of you gun 'enthusiasts' actually shot someone? I have.
    Last edited by KitsapGuy on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:33 pm
  • JustTheTip wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Unfortunately, I do think there are way too many gun owners that are simple minded idiots. Very limited subjective sample size, but I recently joined and was expelled from a my hometown community's facebook group. Very right, very pro gun. I knew most of the people, and many of them were among the absolute dumbest people I grew up with. The fact that they're all so pro gun, pro gun violence, while knowing many of these folks can't be all that stable mentally is scary AF. And yes, many of them would be waiting on their property with guns drawn when the cops come. It was my first experience with this kind of group, and I am by no means attempting to portray that all gun owners are idiots. I know tons of responsible gun owners. But you can't even afford to have a few handfuls that are not.

    But like I said, that would never happen. No body is going to homes to confiscate guns. It would too obviously end in bloodshed. There will be events to turn in your guns, lead by pro-gun right wingers. The people that don't turn in their guns will get reminders/fines by mail.




    :roll:

    As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.

    Must have been in a different group. In my group, not one said anything like that. In fact, my final post there was pointing out that not one said anything like that, and my subsequent discussions with the moderators were about that very point. Many said it was a justified shooting but many went way further. Has to be different groups.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm
  • LymonHawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:Shooting someone is not be the only unit of measure when it comes to using a firearm for defensive purposes. Simply pulling out a gun and making the perp think twice about losing their life is often enough of a deterrent.


    Who the heck told you that bullshit? I've carried guns in two different jobs I've had over the last 50+ years, so I have a little knowledge about 'carrying.' There is an old expression, "If your going to pull the piece out, you gotta be ready to let the bullet fly." ( Or something like that.) Thousands of people have been killed for stupidly doing what you said.

    Good freakin' grief, have any of you gun 'enthusiasts' actually shot someone? I have.



    What the hell are you babbling about? You are taught to only draw and aim at what you are willing to destroy, not shoot at everything you draw and aim on. 1000's of people have also killed others and have been prosecuted for trying to be a Cowboy. Shooting someone should be the last option available.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:07 pm
  • "Don't pull that thang out unless you plan to bang. Don't even bang unless you plan to hit somethang." - Andre 3000
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:52 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:Shooting someone is not be the only unit of measure when it comes to using a firearm for defensive purposes. Simply pulling out a gun and making the perp think twice about losing their life is often enough of a deterrent.


    Who the heck told you that bullshit? I've carried guns in two different jobs I've had over the last 50+ years, so I have a little knowledge about 'carrying.' There is an old expression, "If your going to pull the piece out, you gotta be ready to let the bullet fly." ( Or something like that.) Thousands of people have been killed for stupidly doing what you said.

    Good freakin' grief, have any of you gun 'enthusiasts' actually shot someone? I have.



    What the hell are you babbling about? You are taught to only draw and aim at what you are willing to destroy, not shoot at everything you draw and aim on. 1000's of people have also killed others and have been prosecuted for trying to be a Cowboy. Shooting someone should be the last option available.


    First I should apologize for misreading your post as reading, 'just show them your piece,' which can get you killed.' Also you made no mention of aiming your weapon, 'only pull the piece out.' Which can also get you killed.

    BTW: We've been having this gun debate on .net before you even joined .net. And by know I should know better than to get involved with idiots like you. But as long as I'm here, I might as well rant. Look at your cool avatar! Wow! A gun in 'Hawk colors & a 12!!!! Does that make your dick any bigger? Put more money in your pocket? Make your sweetie love you more. Make you feel more like a 'real man.' How about killing a deer at 200yds with a scope? If you tell me you hunt bears with only a knife and club I be impressed. But shooting a dumb critter who cannot shoot back, is just an ego trip...IMO. Are you so poor you have to kill critters in order to survive?

    And let's talk about the guy who shot & killed someone for breaking into his car. I'd bet dollars to donuts, that in that guy's heart of hearts, he wishes he just let the kids steal his freaking car. You don't think he worries about some of this kid's friends or family coming to harm him or his family? Maybe a simple drive by with a molotov cocktail or bullets. And what did him cost to hire an attorney...unless he was really stupid and didn't hire one? In the heat of the moment he made a mistake, and he knows it. And how about his dreams? Killing another human being is not some kiddy game. It's not like in the movies where the bad guy gets shot, holds his hands to his chest, and quietly dies.
    Some shit & piss themselves, some cry for their G-D or their Momma. And they usually bleed like a mother hen.

    And here's another thing no one's brought up. What about the people who are accidentally shot or killed by accident? When you pull that trigger and don't hit your target, do you think the bullet simply falls to the ground...or is there a chance it might travel another 1/2 mile or so?

    Ok, that's it...end of rant. Oh, and more thing...get of my freaking lawn!! :les:
    Last edited by KitsapGuy on Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:19 pm
  • Daaaaang Lymon dropping F bombs like Al Swearengen up in this mug.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:35 pm
  • Yeah, this is not the shack. NO F-BOMBS ALLOWED!!! :141847_bnono:

    I think I got all of them edited out. But if I missed any, please use the report button to flag them. Thanks.

    BTW, there were multiple people, not just Lymon.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:39 pm
  • Wasn't me.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:51 pm
  • KitsapGuy wrote:Yeah, this is not the shack. NO F-BOMBS ALLOWED!!! :141847_bnono:

    I think I got all of them edited out. But if I missed any, please use the report button to flag them. Thanks.

    BTW, there were multiple people, not just Lymon.


    No problem, doesn't bother me at all. You and I having been dancing together for too long to worry about something this minor. :irishdrinkers:

    And 'mother hen'? Classic!!! :lol:
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:Shooting someone is not be the only unit of measure when it comes to using a firearm for defensive purposes. Simply pulling out a gun and making the perp think twice about losing their life is often enough of a deterrent.


    Who the heck told you that bullshit? I've carried guns in two different jobs I've had over the last 50+ years, so I have a little knowledge about 'carrying.' There is an old expression, "If your going to pull the piece out, you gotta be ready to let the bullet fly." ( Or something like that.) Thousands of people have been killed for stupidly doing what you said.

    Good freakin' grief, have any of you gun 'enthusiasts' actually shot someone? I have.



    What the hell are you babbling about? You are taught to only draw and aim at what you are willing to destroy, not shoot at everything you draw and aim on. 1000's of people have also killed others and have been prosecuted for trying to be a Cowboy. Shooting someone should be the last option available.


    First I should apologize for misreading your post as reading, 'just show them your piece,' which can get you killed.' Also you made no mention of aiming your weapon, 'only pull the piece out.' Which can also get you killed.

    BTW: We've been having this gun debate on .net before you even joined .net. And by know I should know better than to get involved with idiots like you. But as long as I'm here, I might as well rant. Look at your cool avatar! Wow! A gun in 'Hawk colors & a 12!!!! Does that make your dick any bigger? Put more money in your pocket? Make your sweetie love you more. Make you feel more like a 'real man.' How about killing a deer at 200yds with a scope? If you tell me you hunt bears with only a knife and club I be impressed. But shooting a dumb critter who cannot shoot back, is just an ego trip...IMO. Are you so poor you have to kill critters in order to survive?

    And let's talk about the guy who shot & killed someone for breaking into his car. I'd bet dollars to donuts, that in that guy's heart of hearts, he wishes he just let the kids steal his freaking car. You don't think he worries about some of this kid's friends or family coming to harm him or his family? Maybe a simple drive by with a molotov cocktail or bullets. And what did him cost to hire an attorney...unless he was really stupid and didn't hire one? In the heat of the moment he made a mistake, and he knows it. And how about his dreams? Killing another human being is not some kiddy game. It's not like in the movies where the bad guy gets shot, holds his hands to his chest, and quietly dies.
    Some shit & piss themselves, some cry for their G-D or their Momma. And they usually bleed like a mother hen.

    And here's another thing no one's brought up. What about the people who are accidentally shot or killed by accident? When you pull that trigger and don't hit your target, do you think the bullet simply falls to the ground...or is there a chance it might travel another 1/2 mile or so?

    Ok, that's it...end of rant. Oh, and more thing...get of my freaking lawn!! :les:


    So the only reason anybody should hunt is out of pure need? People aren't allowed to hunt because they enjoy the time in nature, they have more respect for the meat they are eating because they understand fully where it came from, they prefer the meat because it hasn't been tainted with antibiotics, steroids or subpar living conditions, they enjoy honing a skill?

    As to your last paragraph, that has been brought up multiple times and at least once by 206 (I believe in response to you, but could be wrong.) This indicates me you are just here to dictate your opinion as fact and labeled anybody with an opposing opinion an idiot before even coming to the thread (again I could be wrong, but that is my perception.)

    Edit: sorry it wasn't in response to you but it was on the last page

    2_0_6 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    70k? Any source for that?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use
    Believe the low end comes from FBI stats, but as you'll see other estimates are in the millions.

    The data though is heavily extrapolated from a collection of small studies. Not exactly something I would consider reliable as a data scientist. The eyeball test tells you this is a little fantastic. If this were true, we would all be physically seeing guns used in defense all the time. I've seen it, what, once or twice in my life? And I've lived in some sketchy places. This is collected data from a bunch of fanatical liars.



    Shooting someone is not the only way of defending yourself with a firearm. In my training classes, they taught us many variables to be aware of (backdrop, location, imminent threat) and put us in some situations. Low light, tight quarters (front seat of a car), crowded room, hostage situation, etc. Try to get out of the threat by NOT using deadly force, but do if that is your only option. If you decide to shoot and kill the criminal and that bullet happens to kill or hurt a bystander you can be charged.

    Currently there are over 17 million people with Concealed carry permits in the US. Being that 70k have reported using their firearm in some sort of defense situation isn't out of the question.

    https://www.gunstocarry.com/concealed-carry-statistics/
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:50 am
  • peachesenregalia wrote:This thread was going very well, with people keeping it civil and having fairly reasonable discussions - until pmedic came along.

    Might want to think about that, mods.


    Right.

    Nobody was slinging insults and name calling until it happened too me.

    It’s my fault, I’ll take the blame.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:55 am
  • Hey 'Tip: That's your proof? Weak sauce, kid. While the post does say, he was told to be aware, it says nothing about the thousands of people who are shot by accident every year. As far as reading every post on this thread, you are correct, I haven't read each and every one. But I'm guessing neither have you. If you have, might I suggest, 'Get a life!'

    As far as hunting; It's only my opinion. Now, if you said anything about how hunting deer helps with over population, I might give your response more credence. Nor am I denying I've never poached a deer. But we didn't use a scope. Shot that critter from 20-30yds aware. Eating a freshly killed deer heart is quite a rush, IIRC. You can't enjoy the outdoors unless you're killing something? Really? Or how about simply taking a picture of the critter? Wouldn't that also help in honing your skills? I'm on my 76th tour of the Sun, and these days I rarely kill things; I even try to catch spiders and such, and simply throw throw out the door. Even when I fish, I only use single, barbless hooks, and only toss lures, never bait. I'm strictly a catch and release guy. Too me the thrill is in tricking the fish, not proving I can kill it.

    YMMV, you poopiehead!! (Hey, Kitsap, is it ok if I say poopiehead?) :mrgreen:
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:15 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:Hey 'Tip: That's your proof? Weak sauce, kid. While the post does say, he was told to be aware, it says nothing about the thousands of people who are shot by accident every year. As far as reading every post on this thread, you are correct, I haven't read each and every one. But I'm guessing neither have you. If you have, might I suggest, 'Get a life!'

    As far as hunting; It's only my opinion. Now, if you said anything about how hunting deer helps with over population, I might give your response more credence. Nor am I denying I've never poached a deer. But we didn't use a scope. Shot that critter from 20-30yds aware. Eating a freshly killed deer heart is quite a rush, IIRC. You can't enjoy the outdoors unless you're killing something? Really? Or how about simply taking a picture of the critter? Wouldn't that also help in honing your skills? I'm on my 76th tour of the Sun, and these days I rarely kill things; I even try to catch spiders and such, and simply throw out the door. Even when I fish, I only use single, barbless hooks, and only toss lures, never bait. I'm strictly a catch and release guy. Too me the thrill is in tricking the fish, not proving I can kill it.

    YMMV, you poopiehead!! (Hey, Kitsap, is it ok if I say poopiehead?) :mrgreen:


    Actually, I have never hunted (I do fish) and did quite a bit of backpacking when I was in my teens and 20s (starting when I was 11 I did at least one 10 day trip a year and usually several other 3 to 5 day trips.) Doesn't change the fact that other people may enjoy nature in a different way then I do. I don't feel the need to belittle them or call them names. I hope on my 76th tour (if I make it that far) I have lost not that respect for other people solely because their opinions differ.

    Way to move the goalpost on the "do you think the bullet just drops to the ground" argument btw. That is quality goalpost work.

    I have a life thank you. But yes I have read every post. While I don't have respect for some of what some people are posting in this thread, I developed that lack of respect by reading what they had to write. I figure I owe it to people to try to understand what they are saying before I start criticizing them for it. And that lack of respect is contained to what they have posted in this thread. People (all of us) get irrational about things they care about. Also my sauce game is strong, old family recipe from Italy. Haven't had one person try it that hasn't liked it.

    Your 200 yard scope argument is strange to me. You don't think it is a skill to hone to be able to hit a target where you want 200 yards out? Determine the range, drop/rise and make the proper scope adjustments? The scope is just another tool and one that requires skill to use properly. That is like saying I am bad for using downriggers when I fish. As for catch and release, native coho (non-hatchery) have to be released where I fish and barbless hooks are the regulation. I watch at least 30% of those native fish die because they swallowed the hooks too deep. I know this is different then the fishing you do and you likely experience a much higher survival rate but to me it seems such a waste to not just have those fishing salmon keep the first 2 fish. If the native Coho are in that much trouble, have no fishing seasons for a 4 year cycle (including commercial and Native American.) Oh wait, that will never happen because some of the people funding gun control (among others) would loose way too much money.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:42 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:
    KitsapGuy wrote:Yeah, this is not the shack. NO F-BOMBS ALLOWED!!! :141847_bnono:

    I think I got all of them edited out. But if I missed any, please use the report button to flag them. Thanks.

    BTW, there were multiple people, not just Lymon.


    No problem, doesn't bother me at all. You and I having been dancing together for too long to worry about something this minor. :irishdrinkers:

    And 'mother hen'? Classic!!! :lol:

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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:13 am
  • Hey 'sprey, been meaning to ask you, did you march with the proud boys in Portland? :mrgreen:
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:19 am
  • People hunting for sport is pretty ridiculous to me. Enjoying nature and murdering nature are different things in my opinion. Naval Ravikant makes a funny point saying what is going on is an “animal holocaust.” It will be interesting once we are eating mostly synthetic meat to see if hunting is still socially acceptable.

    Fish is a little different, as the human body for some reason still needs it to remain healthy.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:21 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:This thread was going very well, with people keeping it civil and having fairly reasonable discussions - until pmedic came along.

    Might want to think about that, mods.


    Right.

    Nobody was slinging insults and name calling until it happened too me.

    It’s my fault, I’ll take the blame.


    Pssst....it's 'to' not too. Yeegads, I'm channeling iRO!!! LOL!
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:29 am
  • Tical21 wrote:People hunting for sport is pretty ridiculous to me. Enjoying nature and murdering nature are different things in my opinion. Naval Ravikant makes a funny point saying what is going on is an “animal holocaust.” It will be interesting once we are eating mostly synthetic meat to see if hunting is still socially acceptable.

    Fish is a little different, as the human body for some reason still needs it to remain healthy.


    I would agree, hunting solely for sport is ridiculous (in my opinion.) If you are using the animal (meat, hide, etc.) then it isn't sport hunting even if you get enjoyment out of it.

    If you are concerned with how the animals are treated you should really look at farming before you even give hunting a glance. Many animals die much more gruesome deaths by other animals (slowly eaten alive as an example) then the humane way hunters kill (and yes I know that it doesn't always end up as humanely as it should be.)
    Last edited by JustTheTip on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
    JustTheTip
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:31 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:Hey 'sprey, been meaning to ask you, did you march with the proud boys in Portland? :mrgreen:

    Tempting, but I avoid Multnomah County like the plague. Live north of the Columbia now and even when I had a Portland address it was in Washington and Clackamas county.

    Lots to be said about that whole situation, but afraid it's PWR territory.
    Osprey
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:47 am
  • Osprey wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:Hey 'sprey, been meaning to ask you, did you march with the proud boys in Portland? :mrgreen:

    Tempting, but I avoid Multnomah County like the plague. Live north of the Columbia now and even when I had a Portland address it was in Washington and Clackamas county.

    Lots to be said about that whole situation, but afraid it's PWR territory.


    You avoid the entire county? :lol:
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:49 am
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:I find it absolutely fascinating that Sgt_Largent is cool with the idea of cops/military going door to door with guns drawn to confiscate peoples' guns.


    Not my dumb example, blame fender.

    But that's how this conversation goes. One side lays out perfectly plausible and reasonable gun reform ideas, then smashcut to fender talking about killing babies.

    You guys are awesome, don't ever change.


    Honestly at this point I'm just reading through this thread for the deflection, whataboutism and bad faith arguments. The last couple pages have included foreign governments arming ANTIFA, blaming social media platforms, and expecting a UN invasion -- fantastic work by all those involved.


    If your twisting my words about the UN, please don’t.

    “Expecting” was never said nor implied by me.

    I may not have made myself clear, let me try again.

    I do believe 100% that a nation wide gun ban and forced confiscation would spark a civil war. Not everyone believes that but I do.

    I also believe that the majority of the police AND military would not support the government in this scenario.
    Not everyone believes this but I do.

    If, I repeat if, anyone also believes these things, they should think a little deeper into how they think it would all play out. I’d first ask this, if the government didn’t have the support of “most” of the police AND most of the military, how could/would they fight a civil war?
    There are truly very few scenarios that even come close to having any chance of success.
    Seeking and receiving help from the UN is one of the plausible.

    I do not think that it will come to this in my lifetime, I do not believe that the government is coming to take my guns anytime soon.

    I do believe that the 2nd amendment will be whittled away if we allow it to happen, and that is the reason that I will oppose any attempt, I will oppose anything that I personally see as a threat to our 2nd amendment rights.

    My original statement that included “UN forces” was simply me stating that I don’t believe our military will ever stand against the people in an effort to disarm, and that I believe our government getting help from the UN is a much more likely scenario.

    There are already areas of our country where police have confiscated guns.
    Some of the videos can be seen on YouTube. The officers were following orders from above, I suppose in an effort to keep their jobs. These incidents seem to be isolated and few but they are already happening. I suspect that in some of the cases, the ordinances that allowed the confiscation will be challenged in court. Thankfully the NRA jumps on these things quickly.
    I’m not a fan of the NRA but I do support the organization financially as much as I can, I do so with reservation because they are the loudest and strongest voice any gun rights advocate has.

    I am not expecting the UN to come take my guns but I do see it as much more likely than the USA military doing so.


    I’ve stated here before, I own and control many “guns”, the government knows I own guns. They know about some of the guns I own, they do not know about every gun I own.

    Every gun I own is 100% legal to own, and I obtained all of them legally as it should be.


    I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.

    “Guns” in my eyes are “tools”, they are one of those tools that you may never need but you better have should you ever need it. The alternative is very bleak.

    Ignorance = Bliss

    All of the guns in our country will never go away, that IMHO is a fact.
    We can change laws, make new laws. We can impose bans, limit capacities, and tax bullets.
    Imagine our country if we banned and confiscated the guns, EVERY law abiding citizen turned in ALL of their guns.

    How many guns would still be out there?
    Who’s hands would they be in?

    There are as many arguments on this topic as there are opinions, like the opinions,some of the arguments on both sides are valid, some are ludicrous.

    I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, I’m simply trying to offer my perspective.
    I haven’t always been pro gun, and a supporter of the 2nd. It’s been an evolution/process.
    I’ve grown less confident in our government (the 2nd amendment side).
    I’ve spent almost 30 years working on an ambulance in and around one of the biggest cities in America, the amount of personal level violence that I’ve seen can’t be counted, most of it could have been prevented had the victims owned,carried, and been proficient with a gun. (Personal protection side)

    I wish that every “anti gun” individual would consider for 1 minuet, how much possible violence/crime was prevented by a responsible/legal gun owner. There are no statistics but there are estimates that can be looked up easily. Even the low estimates made by non pro gun organizations are almost staggering when compared to gun deaths and injuries.

    I think everyone that legally can, should own a gun or two, I don’t have a problem with those that choose not to.
    The problem starts when that person says I shouldn’t own one. The Constitution of The United States of America gives me the right.


    I hate to even think about what may/could happen should a true attempt be made to revoke that right.
    pmedic920
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:51 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:I find it absolutely fascinating that Sgt_Largent is cool with the idea of cops/military going door to door with guns drawn to confiscate peoples' guns.


    Not my dumb example, blame fender.

    But that's how this conversation goes. One side lays out perfectly plausible and reasonable gun reform ideas, then smashcut to fender talking about killing babies.

    You guys are awesome, don't ever change.


    Honestly at this point I'm just reading through this thread for the deflection, whataboutism and bad faith arguments. The last couple pages have included foreign governments arming ANTIFA, blaming social media platforms, and expecting a UN invasion -- fantastic work by all those involved.


    If your twisting my words about the UN, please don’t.

    “Expecting” was never said nor implied by me.

    I may not have made myself clear, let me try again.

    I do believe 100% that a nation wide gun ban and forced confiscation would spark a civil war. Not everyone believes that but I do.

    I also believe that the majority of the police AND military would not support the government in this scenario.
    Not everyone believes this but I do.

    If, I repeat if, anyone also believes these things, they should think a little deeper into how they think it would all play out. I’d first ask this, if the government didn’t have the support of “most” of the police AND most of the military, how could/would they fight a civil war?
    There are truly very few scenarios that even come close to having any chance of success.
    Seeking and receiving help from the UN is one of the plausible.

    I do not think that it will come to this in my lifetime, I do not believe that the government is coming to take my guns anytime soon.

    I do believe that the 2nd amendment will be whittled away if we allow it to happen, and that is the reason that I will oppose any attempt, I will oppose anything that I personally see as a threat to our 2nd amendment rights.

    My original statement that included “UN forces” was simply me stating that I don’t believe our military will ever stand against the people in an effort to disarm, and that I believe our government getting help from the UN is a much more likely scenario.

    There are already areas of our country where police have confiscated guns.
    Some of the videos can be seen on YouTube. The officers were following orders from above, I suppose in an effort to keep their jobs. These incidents seem to be isolated and few but they are already happening. I suspect that in some of the cases, the ordinances that allowed the confiscation will be challenged in court. Thankfully the NRA jumps on these things quickly.
    I’m not a fan of the NRA but I do support the organization financially as much as I can, I do so with reservation because they are the loudest and strongest voice any gun rights advocate has.

    I am not expecting the UN to come take my guns but I do see it as much more likely than the USA military doing so.


    I’ve stated here before, I own and control many “guns”, the government knows I own guns. They know about some of the guns I own, they do not know about every gun I own.

    Every gun I own is 100% legal to own, and I obtained all of them legally as it should be.


    I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.

    “Guns” in my eyes are “tools”, they are one of those tools that you may never need but you better have should you ever need it. The alternative is very bleak.

    Ignorance = Bliss

    All of the guns in our country will never go away, that IMHO is a fact.
    We can change laws, make new laws. We can impose bans, limit capacities, and tax bullets.
    Imagine our country if we banned and confiscated the guns, EVERY law abiding citizen turned in ALL of their guns.

    How many guns would still be out there?
    Who’s hands would they be in?

    There are as many arguments on this topic as there are opinions, like the opinions,some of the arguments on both sides are valid, some are ludicrous.

    I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, I’m simply trying to offer my perspective.
    I haven’t always been pro gun, and a supporter of the 2nd. It’s been an evolution/process.
    I’ve grown less confident in our government (the 2nd amendment side).
    I’ve spent almost 30 years working on an ambulance in and around one of the biggest cities in America, the amount of personal level violence that I’ve seen can’t be counted, most of it could have been prevented had the victims owned,carried, and been proficient with a gun. (Personal protection side)

    I wish that every “anti gun” individual would consider for 1 minuet, how much possible violence/crime was prevented by a responsible/legal gun owner. There are no statistics but there are estimates that can be looked up easily. Even the low estimates made by non pro gun organizations are almost staggering when compared to gun deaths and injuries.

    I think everyone that legally can, should own a gun or two, I don’t have a problem with those that choose not to.
    The problem starts when that person says I shouldn’t own one. The Constitution of The United States of America gives me the right.


    I hate to even think about what may/could happen should a true attempt be made to revoke that right.


    Image
    peachesenregalia
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:53 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:Hey 'sprey, been meaning to ask you, did you march with the proud boys in Portland? :mrgreen:

    Tempting, but I avoid Multnomah County like the plague. Live north of the Columbia now and even when I had a Portland address it was in Washington and Clackamas county.

    Lots to be said about that whole situation, but afraid it's PWR territory.


    You avoid the entire county? :lol:

    My version of fly over country. Can't avoid it completely, but do when I can since there's little distinction between City and County.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:58 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.


    This is such a weird, regressive, paranoid line of thinking to me. Even as somebody who's decided to do exactly what you recommend, I absolutely do not want to live in a country or a world where every single person is armed. I want to live in a society where most people feel safe enough to not carry. And as bad as things seem to be some times, I still believe that most people don't feel like they need to carry. And that is a good thing.
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:01 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:I find it absolutely fascinating that Sgt_Largent is cool with the idea of cops/military going door to door with guns drawn to confiscate peoples' guns.


    Not my dumb example, blame fender.

    But that's how this conversation goes. One side lays out perfectly plausible and reasonable gun reform ideas, then smashcut to fender talking about killing babies.

    You guys are awesome, don't ever change.


    Honestly at this point I'm just reading through this thread for the deflection, whataboutism and bad faith arguments. The last couple pages have included foreign governments arming ANTIFA, blaming social media platforms, and expecting a UN invasion -- fantastic work by all those involved.


    If your twisting my words about the UN, please don’t.

    “Expecting” was never said nor implied by me.

    I may not have made myself clear, let me try again.

    I do believe 100% that a nation wide gun ban and forced confiscation would spark a civil war. Not everyone believes that but I do.

    I also believe that the majority of the police AND military would not support the government in this scenario.
    Not everyone believes this but I do.

    If, I repeat if, anyone also believes these things, they should think a little deeper into how they think it would all play out. I’d first ask this, if the government didn’t have the support of “most” of the police AND most of the military, how could/would they fight a civil war?
    There are truly very few scenarios that even come close to having any chance of success.
    Seeking and receiving help from the UN is one of the plausible.

    I do not think that it will come to this in my lifetime, I do not believe that the government is coming to take my guns anytime soon.

    I do believe that the 2nd amendment will be whittled away if we allow it to happen, and that is the reason that I will oppose any attempt, I will oppose anything that I personally see as a threat to our 2nd amendment rights.

    My original statement that included “UN forces” was simply me stating that I don’t believe our military will ever stand against the people in an effort to disarm, and that I believe our government getting help from the UN is a much more likely scenario.

    There are already areas of our country where police have confiscated guns.
    Some of the videos can be seen on YouTube. The officers were following orders from above, I suppose in an effort to keep their jobs. These incidents seem to be isolated and few but they are already happening. I suspect that in some of the cases, the ordinances that allowed the confiscation will be challenged in court. Thankfully the NRA jumps on these things quickly.
    I’m not a fan of the NRA but I do support the organization financially as much as I can, I do so with reservation because they are the loudest and strongest voice any gun rights advocate has.

    I am not expecting the UN to come take my guns but I do see it as much more likely than the USA military doing so.


    I’ve stated here before, I own and control many “guns”, the government knows I own guns. They know about some of the guns I own, they do not know about every gun I own.

    Every gun I own is 100% legal to own, and I obtained all of them legally as it should be.


    I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.

    “Guns” in my eyes are “tools”, they are one of those tools that you may never need but you better have should you ever need it. The alternative is very bleak.

    Ignorance = Bliss

    All of the guns in our country will never go away, that IMHO is a fact.
    We can change laws, make new laws. We can impose bans, limit capacities, and tax bullets.
    Imagine our country if we banned and confiscated the guns, EVERY law abiding citizen turned in ALL of their guns.

    How many guns would still be out there?
    Who’s hands would they be in?

    There are as many arguments on this topic as there are opinions, like the opinions,some of the arguments on both sides are valid, some are ludicrous.

    I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, I’m simply trying to offer my perspective.
    I haven’t always been pro gun, and a supporter of the 2nd. It’s been an evolution/process.
    I’ve grown less confident in our government (the 2nd amendment side).
    I’ve spent almost 30 years working on an ambulance in and around one of the biggest cities in America, the amount of personal level violence that I’ve seen can’t be counted, most of it could have been prevented had the victims owned,carried, and been proficient with a gun. (Personal protection side)

    I wish that every “anti gun” individual would consider for 1 minuet, how much possible violence/crime was prevented by a responsible/legal gun owner. There are no statistics but there are estimates that can be looked up easily. Even the low estimates made by non pro gun organizations are almost staggering when compared to gun deaths and injuries.

    I think everyone that legally can, should own a gun or two, I don’t have a problem with those that choose not to.
    The problem starts when that person says I shouldn’t own one. The Constitution of The United States of America gives me the right.


    I hate to even think about what may/could happen should a true attempt be made to revoke that right.

    The constitution is wrong. The founding fathers didn’t have the foresight required to speak logically on this issue. If they saw what was going on, do you think they still would have allowed us to all have guns? No chance.
    Tical21
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:05 pm
  • pehawk wrote:Let's go purely hypothetical. If I was to get the infinity gauntlet, and with a snap of my fingers I could eradicate all guns AND any future gun deaths, would any of you 2nd amendment people agree to it?


    The problem with this scenario is, it does not take into account why the 2nd was written.

    I would agree to it if the only thing that mattered was gun deaths and gun violence but self protection from personal level violence is only part of the equation.

    So, my answer is absolutely not.

    Have you ever read the 2nd amendment?
    I’d assume and hope you have but it’s amazing how many on both side have not, it’s saddening actually.

    https://www.congress.gov/content/conan/ ... 7-10-3.pdf
    pmedic920
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:09 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Not my dumb example, blame fender.

    But that's how this conversation goes. One side lays out perfectly plausible and reasonable gun reform ideas, then smashcut to fender talking about killing babies.

    You guys are awesome, don't ever change.


    Honestly at this point I'm just reading through this thread for the deflection, whataboutism and bad faith arguments. The last couple pages have included foreign governments arming ANTIFA, blaming social media platforms, and expecting a UN invasion -- fantastic work by all those involved.


    If your twisting my words about the UN, please don’t.

    “Expecting” was never said nor implied by me.

    I may not have made myself clear, let me try again.

    I do believe 100% that a nation wide gun ban and forced confiscation would spark a civil war. Not everyone believes that but I do.

    I also believe that the majority of the police AND military would not support the government in this scenario.
    Not everyone believes this but I do.

    If, I repeat if, anyone also believes these things, they should think a little deeper into how they think it would all play out. I’d first ask this, if the government didn’t have the support of “most” of the police AND most of the military, how could/would they fight a civil war?
    There are truly very few scenarios that even come close to having any chance of success.
    Seeking and receiving help from the UN is one of the plausible.

    I do not think that it will come to this in my lifetime, I do not believe that the government is coming to take my guns anytime soon.

    I do believe that the 2nd amendment will be whittled away if we allow it to happen, and that is the reason that I will oppose any attempt, I will oppose anything that I personally see as a threat to our 2nd amendment rights.

    My original statement that included “UN forces” was simply me stating that I don’t believe our military will ever stand against the people in an effort to disarm, and that I believe our government getting help from the UN is a much more likely scenario.

    There are already areas of our country where police have confiscated guns.
    Some of the videos can be seen on YouTube. The officers were following orders from above, I suppose in an effort to keep their jobs. These incidents seem to be isolated and few but they are already happening. I suspect that in some of the cases, the ordinances that allowed the confiscation will be challenged in court. Thankfully the NRA jumps on these things quickly.
    I’m not a fan of the NRA but I do support the organization financially as much as I can, I do so with reservation because they are the loudest and strongest voice any gun rights advocate has.

    I am not expecting the UN to come take my guns but I do see it as much more likely than the USA military doing so.


    I’ve stated here before, I own and control many “guns”, the government knows I own guns. They know about some of the guns I own, they do not know about every gun I own.

    Every gun I own is 100% legal to own, and I obtained all of them legally as it should be.


    I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.

    “Guns” in my eyes are “tools”, they are one of those tools that you may never need but you better have should you ever need it. The alternative is very bleak.

    Ignorance = Bliss

    All of the guns in our country will never go away, that IMHO is a fact.
    We can change laws, make new laws. We can impose bans, limit capacities, and tax bullets.
    Imagine our country if we banned and confiscated the guns, EVERY law abiding citizen turned in ALL of their guns.

    How many guns would still be out there?
    Who’s hands would they be in?

    There are as many arguments on this topic as there are opinions, like the opinions,some of the arguments on both sides are valid, some are ludicrous.

    I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, I’m simply trying to offer my perspective.
    I haven’t always been pro gun, and a supporter of the 2nd. It’s been an evolution/process.
    I’ve grown less confident in our government (the 2nd amendment side).
    I’ve spent almost 30 years working on an ambulance in and around one of the biggest cities in America, the amount of personal level violence that I’ve seen can’t be counted, most of it could have been prevented had the victims owned,carried, and been proficient with a gun. (Personal protection side)

    I wish that every “anti gun” individual would consider for 1 minuet, how much possible violence/crime was prevented by a responsible/legal gun owner. There are no statistics but there are estimates that can be looked up easily. Even the low estimates made by non pro gun organizations are almost staggering when compared to gun deaths and injuries.

    I think everyone that legally can, should own a gun or two, I don’t have a problem with those that choose not to.
    The problem starts when that person says I shouldn’t own one. The Constitution of The United States of America gives me the right.


    I hate to even think about what may/could happen should a true attempt be made to revoke that right.

    The constitution is wrong. The founding fathers didn’t have the foresight required to speak logically on this issue. If they saw what was going on, do you think they still would have allowed us to all have guns? No chance.



    I think they would have been much more dismayed with media and social media and their impacts than the impacts of the availability of AR-15s.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:12 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:Hey 'sprey, been meaning to ask you, did you march with the proud boys in Portland? :mrgreen:

    Tempting, but I avoid Multnomah County like the plague. Live north of the Columbia now and even when I had a Portland address it was in Washington and Clackamas county.

    Lots to be said about that whole situation, but afraid it's PWR territory.


    I hear ya, was just goofing around.
    LymonHawk
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:18 pm
  • The 2nd amendment was written like 230 years ago when the population of the US was less than the state of Oregon, after we had just gotten done fighting wars to gain independence, when the commonly used musket took 30 seconds or more to load a single shot. We can argue to death what the founding fathers would think or do now, but nobody knows for sure. A guideline as archaic and outdated as our 2nd amendment should not be safe from careful criticism and update.
    Last edited by Zebulon Dak on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:20 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.


    This is such a weird, regressive, paranoid line of thinking to me. Even as somebody who's decided to do exactly what you recommend, I absolutely do not want to live in a country or a world where every single person is armed. I want to live in a society where most people feel safe enough to not carry. And as bad as things seem to be some times, I still believe that most people don't feel like they need to carry. And that is a good thing.


    I get it.
    In a perfect world things wouldn’t be like they are but they are, and our world is not perfect.

    For me it boils down to it’s better to have and not need than vise versa.
    pmedic920
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:21 pm
  • JustTheTip wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.


    There are lots of different posts with similar comments online. Usually in comments sections of articles. I'm not sure I've ever seen people expressing that the shooter should be killed (doesn't mean it hasn't happened), but I have seen lots of times people saying that the shooter should be charged with murder. I've also seen lots of what Tical was talking about with pro gun people saying they wish they could have taken the shot or similar sentiments.

    It's pretty concerning to me that there are who knows how many gun owners out there that are apparently chomping at the bit to get the chance to shoot someone. That seems really messed up. I'm sure it's just tough guy talk for some, but I doubt it is for all.


    And just for everybodys information, in this particular instance the homeowner didn't shoot the guy for car prowling. 2 guys had actually broken into his car, in his driveway, and he went out to confront them. When he did, one of the guys charged him, and that's the guy that got shot. They other guy ran away. You can debate whether or not it was wise to go confront some thieves rifling through your car, but once one of thieves charged at the homeowner, I can't really see how anyone can say he shouldn't have defended himself.
    Chapow
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:25 pm
  • You all have missed one point, say someone at 18 buys a gun or many guns legally, then he enlists and has a traumatic experience while say in Iraq, comes home and is not the same person that bought all those guns he has a PTSD that was miss diagnosed or not at all.

    Or you have Pmedic, always doing things legally, then a event happens where he looses his wife and daughter due to a reckless individual or group, now he is pissed of Pmedic and wants payback, he is depressed and feels he has nothing else to lose now.

    Both cases the person was fine when they purchased these weapons but life changed them, oh I certainly hope nothing ever happens to your family Pmedic it was a example, they both look like wonderful and lovely people.


    The bottom line is when screened these both passed and were upstanding people, it was later things went a different direction.
    chris98251
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:26 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.


    This is such a weird, regressive, paranoid line of thinking to me. Even as somebody who's decided to do exactly what you recommend, I absolutely do not want to live in a country or a world where every single person is armed. I want to live in a society where most people feel safe enough to not carry. And as bad as things seem to be some times, I still believe that most people don't feel like they need to carry. And that is a good thing.


    I think we should adopt it. Can you imagine the sheer joy of knowing that whoever you cut off in traffic is armed? And that a bunch of drunk people also have guns? Oh man, it would solve so many issues when 1/2 the population kills themselves or gets killed in the first year.
    Last edited by Sarlacc83 on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Sarlacc83
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:26 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:The 2nd amendment was written like 230 years ago when the population of the US was less than the state of Oregon, after we had just gotten done fighting wars to gain independence, when the commonly used musket took 30 seconds or more to load a single shot. We can argue to death what the founding fathers would think or do now, but nobody knows for sure. A guideline as archaic and outdated as our 2nd amendment should not be safe from careful criticism and update.


    Yep, and many would argue that the 2nd is even more pertinent and important now, than it was then.
    Imagine for a moment, what is the current government capable of compared to what they were 200+ years ago.
    pmedic920
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:27 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.


    This is such a weird, regressive, paranoid line of thinking to me. Even as somebody who's decided to do exactly what you recommend, I absolutely do not want to live in a country or a world where every single person is armed. I want to live in a society where most people feel safe enough to not carry. And as bad as things seem to be some times, I still believe that most people don't feel like they need to carry. And that is a good thing.


    I get it.
    In a perfect world things wouldn’t be like they are but they are, and our world is not perfect.

    For me it boils down to it’s better to have and not need than vise versa.


    Right. I understand. But wanting EVERYBODY to feel that same way seems weird to me.

    Statistically speaking, the average person is in very little danger of being violently attacked.
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:28 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:The 2nd amendment was written like 230 years ago when the population of the US was less than the state of Oregon, after we had just gotten done fighting wars to gain independence, when the commonly used musket took 30 seconds or more to load a single shot. We can argue to death what the founding fathers would think or do now, but nobody knows for sure. A guideline as archaic and outdated as our 2nd amendment should not be safe from careful criticism and update.


    Yep, and many would argue that the 2nd is even more pertinent and important now, than it was then.
    Imagine for a moment, what is the current government capable of compared to what they were 200+ years ago.


    No doubt. I hear AR-15s are especially valuable against ICBMs and MOABs.
    Sarlacc83
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:29 pm
  • Chapow wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.


    There are lots of different posts with similar comments online. Usually in comments sections of articles. I'm not sure I've ever seen people expressing that the shooter should be killed (doesn't mean it hasn't happened), but I have seen lots of times people saying that the shooter should be charged with murder. I've also seen lots of what Tical was talking about with pro gun people saying they wish they could have taken the shot or similar sentiments.

    It's pretty concerning to me that there are who knows how many gun owners out there that are apparently chomping at the bit to get the chance to shoot someone. That seems really messed up. I'm sure it's just tough guy talk for some, but I doubt it is for all.


    And just for everybodys information, in this particular instance the homeowner didn't shoot the guy for car prowling. 2 guys had actually broken into his car, in his driveway, and he went out to confront them. When he did, one of the guys charged him, and that's the guy that got shot. They other guy ran away. You can debate whether or not it was wise to go confront some thieves rifling through your car, but once one of thieves charged at the homeowner, I can't really see how anyone can say he shouldn't have defended himself.


    I'd dropped him in a second and probably the other guy also if he approached, in the dark you can't see what they have with them, secondly they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. thirdly two on one your allowed to protect yourself if you believe they have harmful intent.
    chris98251
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:33 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:The 2nd amendment was written like 230 years ago when the population of the US was less than the state of Oregon, after we had just gotten done fighting wars to gain independence, when the commonly used musket took 30 seconds or more to load a single shot. We can argue to death what the founding fathers would think or do now, but nobody knows for sure. A guideline as archaic and outdated as our 2nd amendment should not be safe from careful criticism and update.


    Yep, and many would argue that the 2nd is even more pertinent and important now, than it was then.
    Imagine for a moment, what is the current government capable of compared to what they were 200+ years ago.


    In your very own "deeply thought" scenario the US government isn't even who we would have to fight. Think about what you said before about the military and the police and the UN and then tell me exactly why what the government is capable of is such a threat that we should all be armed.
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:34 pm
  • Sarlacc83 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:I suggest that everyone that can legally own a gun does so, even if they don’t like guns or support the 2nd amendment. I suggest they get a gun, and become proficient and comfortable with it.


    This is such a weird, regressive, paranoid line of thinking to me. Even as somebody who's decided to do exactly what you recommend, I absolutely do not want to live in a country or a world where every single person is armed. I want to live in a society where most people feel safe enough to not carry. And as bad as things seem to be some times, I still believe that most people don't feel like they need to carry. And that is a good thing.


    I think we should adopt it. Can you imagine the sheer joy of knowing that whoever you cut off in traffic is armed? And that a bunch of drunk people also have guns? Oh man, it would solve so many issues when 1/2 the population kills themselves or gets killed in the first year.


    GUNWORLD
    Zebulon Dak
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:37 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Chapow wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.


    There are lots of different posts with similar comments online. Usually in comments sections of articles. I'm not sure I've ever seen people expressing that the shooter should be killed (doesn't mean it hasn't happened), but I have seen lots of times people saying that the shooter should be charged with murder. I've also seen lots of what Tical was talking about with pro gun people saying they wish they could have taken the shot or similar sentiments.

    It's pretty concerning to me that there are who knows how many gun owners out there that are apparently chomping at the bit to get the chance to shoot someone. That seems really messed up. I'm sure it's just tough guy talk for some, but I doubt it is for all.


    And just for everybodys information, in this particular instance the homeowner didn't shoot the guy for car prowling. 2 guys had actually broken into his car, in his driveway, and he went out to confront them. When he did, one of the guys charged him, and that's the guy that got shot. They other guy ran away. You can debate whether or not it was wise to go confront some thieves rifling through your car, but once one of thieves charged at the homeowner, I can't really see how anyone can say he shouldn't have defended himself.


    I'd dropped him in a second and probably the other guy also if he approached, in the dark you can't see what they have with them, secondly they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. thirdly two on one your allowed to protect yourself if you believe they have harmful intent.

    Nobody on either side is saying the homeowner wasn't justified in shooting him. Only that it is sad and should not be celebrated.
    Tical21
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:38 pm
  • Chapow wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:As an example, there was a car-prowler that was shot while charging at a gun-owner that came out of their home to confront him. There were literally dozens, if not hundreds of responses from people wishing they would be the person that got to shoot the perp, celebrating the thinning of the herd, wishing they could "give him lead poisoning." Hundreds of replies, and not one single person pointing out that what happened was sad. Sad that the guy went through whatever road that lead him to stealing from people. Sad that the gun owner felt it necessary to own a gun to protect his property. That's how I knew this situation is a lot more screwed than I thought it was.


    I know the post you are talking about and I saw at least as many anti gun people saying the homeowner should be killed for defending himself as pro gun people saying they wished they could have taken the shot. Most of the pro gun comments were along the lines of "justified shooting, I would have done the same in his place." And a lot of the those also included the sentiment of "I hope I never have to use my gun for defense.


    There are lots of different posts with similar comments online. Usually in comments sections of articles. I'm not sure I've ever seen people expressing that the shooter should be killed (doesn't mean it hasn't happened), but I have seen lots of times people saying that the shooter should be charged with murder. I've also seen lots of what Tical was talking about with pro gun people saying they wish they could have taken the shot or similar sentiments.

    It's pretty concerning to me that there are who knows how many gun owners out there that are apparently chomping at the bit to get the chance to shoot someone. That seems really messed up. I'm sure it's just tough guy talk for some, but I doubt it is for all.


    And just for everybodys information, in this particular instance the homeowner didn't shoot the guy for car prowling. 2 guys had actually broken into his car, in his driveway, and he went out to confront them. When he did, one of the guys charged him, and that's the guy that got shot. They other guy ran away. You can debate whether or not it was wise to go confront some thieves rifling through your car, but once one of thieves charged at the homeowner, I can't really see how anyone can say he shouldn't have defended himself.


    I would also agree with this as well. Anybody who actually WANTS the opportunity to shoot somebody shouldn't have access to a gun.
    JustTheTip
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