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Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk

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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:15 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:It's an impossible task. They are literally never going to make movies that can live up to the original trilogy and like a quarter of the fan base is unwilling to accept anything that falls short, with another quarter of them who are going to hate anything that isn't a direct adaptation of old EU stories or video games.


    Of course there's always going to be a vocal minority of hardcore fans that won't ever be satisfied.

    But there's still plenty of old school fans, as well as millions and millions of just casual sci-fi fans that would embrace Star Wars if it was taken in a more visionary, darker toned and more riskier direction.

    Again, is Disney willing to take that sort of chance? I doubt it, but IMO that's what they have to try to do, or else yes it'll just die off into obscurity, or worse.................continue to suck and torture us with mediocre to terrible movies.



    The killer of it all, was that JJ let slip his plans for the last jedi... yes it was over the top, but it would have been great...


    Luke was going to be super zen, and almost godlike in power -- at the end of the movie he was going to use force lightning to anniahlate the entire imperial attack force while defeating his nephew and it would have been THAT that exhausted and killed him, rather than a simple trick.

    If you had coupled that with say, Kylo taking on Gollum and all those guards on his own, and killing them all so he could become the new Vader... and tweek that with Luke being in seclusion for a more "Luke" pitfall, falling in love with the wrong girl and having a daughter with her... which caused his lapse of concentration and his nephew thus getting seduced to the dark side... and so he went into meditation to think on a way to save his nephew...

    And you allowed Finn to make his big sacrifice...

    And had the blue haired chick actually be open and honest about her intentions... and had those intentions coupled with an actual lore worthy plan.

    And you cut all the freaking inappropriate jokes and the casino scenes..

    That might have been insanely cool movie worthy of ESB...
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:30 pm
  • The_Z_Man wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:It's an impossible task. They are literally never going to make movies that can live up to the original trilogy and like a quarter of the fan base is unwilling to accept anything that falls short, with another quarter of them who are going to hate anything that isn't a direct adaptation of old EU stories or video games.


    Of course there's always going to be a vocal minority of hardcore fans that won't ever be satisfied.

    But there's still plenty of old school fans, as well as millions and millions of just casual sci-fi fans that would embrace Star Wars if it was taken in a more visionary, darker toned and more riskier direction.

    Again, is Disney willing to take that sort of chance? I doubt it, but IMO that's what they have to try to do, or else yes it'll just die off into obscurity, or worse.................continue to suck and torture us with mediocre to terrible movies.



    The killer of it all, was that JJ let slip his plans for the last jedi... yes it was over the top, but it would have been great...


    Luke was going to be super zen, and almost godlike in power -- at the end of the movie he was going to use force lightning to anniahlate the entire imperial attack force while defeating his nephew and it would have been THAT that exhausted and killed him, rather than a simple trick.

    If you had coupled that with say, Kylo taking on Gollum and all those guards on his own, and killing them all so he could become the new Vader... and tweek that with Luke being in seclusion for a more "Luke" pitfall, falling in love with the wrong girl and having a daughter with her... which caused his lapse of concentration and his nephew thus getting seduced to the dark side... and so he went into meditation to think on a way to save his nephew...

    And you allowed Finn to make his big sacrifice...

    And had the blue haired chick actually be open and honest about her intentions... and had those intentions coupled with an actual lore worthy plan.

    And you cut all the freaking inappropriate jokes and the casino scenes..

    That might have been insanely cool movie worthy of ESB...


    Everybody has "their version" of what they think TLJ should have been. And that's why none of this is ever going to really work.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:49 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    Everybody has "their version" of what they think TLJ should have been. And that's why none of this is ever going to really work.


    Well, granted JJ is a notorious liar and he "could" have had a plan, or he just made all this up to make himself look good...

    not that it matters. The ship has sailed... smashed into the iceberg, and sank to the bottom of the ocean.

    Even the rats (the shill critics that Disney bought off) are starting to swim to shore now, decrying "I said it was bad all along..."
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:20 pm
  • Star Wars survived the prequels, it'll survive this silly fan backlash. Ultimately, it's for kids, and kids don't care about any of the stuff the whiny fanboys have decided to bitch about to no end. The fanboys will grow old, die off and go away, but there'll always be 6-12 year old kids. The Mouse is not concerned.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:25 pm
  • Geez, some people will just apologize for the newer Star Wars films indefinitely, I guess...
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:32 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Geez, some people will just apologize for the newer Star Wars films indefinitely, I guess...


    Who's apologizing?
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:49 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Star Wars survived the prequels, it'll survive this silly fan backlash. Ultimately, it's for kids, and kids don't care about any of the stuff the whiny fanboys have decided to bitch about to no end. The fanboys will grow old, die off and go away, but there'll always be 6-12 year old kids. The Mouse is not concerned.

    I wouldn't characterize it that way. You can only put out a bad product for so long before people start dropping, or ignoring it completely. With the Last Jedi, and Solo there has been a more sinister side to the mediocre films. They are not able to move their product, which is actually where a bulk of the Star Wars franchise lies. We went from the second largest film franchise in the world to a franchise that can't move all of its product. Toys, and memorabilia remained on shelves, things had to be discounted before they even arrived in Toy Stores to get people to buy. Not a good sign for the Star Wars brand.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:20 am
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Star Wars survived the prequels, it'll survive this silly fan backlash. Ultimately, it's for kids, and kids don't care about any of the stuff the whiny fanboys have decided to bitch about to no end. The fanboys will grow old, die off and go away, but there'll always be 6-12 year old kids. The Mouse is not concerned.

    I wouldn't characterize it that way. You can only put out a bad product for so long before people start dropping, or ignoring it completely. With the Last Jedi, and Solo there has been a more sinister side to the mediocre films. They are not able to move their product, which is actually where a bulk of the Star Wars franchise lies. We went from the second largest film franchise in the world to a franchise that can't move all of its product. Toys, and memorabilia remained on shelves, things had to be discounted before they even arrived in Toy Stores to get people to buy. Not a good sign for the Star Wars brand.


    They need to do a better job, no question. They've relied heavily on their massive, dedicated fan base, but they've lost a large portion of them at this point. I just can't imagine they won't be able to get back on track though, one way or another. Maybe not as the biggest franchise of all time, that distinction is likely gone for good. But it would take a failure of epic proportions to not be able to continue to capitalize on name recognition alone, and it's still Disney we're talking about. They might not be able to keep an aging fan base satisfied, but they've brought in almost $5 billion dollars at the box office alone in the last 2.5 years, and though merchandising isn't what it used to be, I'm sure they made a pretty penny slapping their likeness on every possible product in the mall and the grocery store over the last couple years. Even if they come back down to earth from here on out and Solo's box office is about what they can expect, that's still $300-$400 million dollars a movie. And that's pretty much worst case scenario. I don't think they're in any danger of failing as a franchise, just maybe having to change exactly what that franchise is.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:28 am
  • The_Z_Man wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:It's an impossible task. They are literally never going to make movies that can live up to the original trilogy and like a quarter of the fan base is unwilling to accept anything that falls short, with another quarter of them who are going to hate anything that isn't a direct adaptation of old EU stories or video games.


    Of course there's always going to be a vocal minority of hardcore fans that won't ever be satisfied.

    But there's still plenty of old school fans, as well as millions and millions of just casual sci-fi fans that would embrace Star Wars if it was taken in a more visionary, darker toned and more riskier direction.

    Again, is Disney willing to take that sort of chance? I doubt it, but IMO that's what they have to try to do, or else yes it'll just die off into obscurity, or worse.................continue to suck and torture us with mediocre to terrible movies.



    The killer of it all, was that JJ let slip his plans for the last jedi... yes it was over the top, but it would have been great...


    Luke was going to be super zen, and almost godlike in power -- at the end of the movie he was going to use force lightning to anniahlate the entire imperial attack force while defeating his nephew and it would have been THAT that exhausted and killed him, rather than a simple trick.

    If you had coupled that with say, Kylo taking on Gollum and all those guards on his own, and killing them all so he could become the new Vader... and tweek that with Luke being in seclusion for a more "Luke" pitfall, falling in love with the wrong girl and having a daughter with her... which caused his lapse of concentration and his nephew thus getting seduced to the dark side... and so he went into meditation to think on a way to save his nephew...

    And you allowed Finn to make his big sacrifice...

    And had the blue haired chick actually be open and honest about her intentions... and had those intentions coupled with an actual lore worthy plan.

    And you cut all the freaking inappropriate jokes and the casino scenes..

    That might have been insanely cool movie worthy of ESB...


    Yep, just goes to prove what most of us have been saying, Disney has been meddling from day one.........and like any great show or movie, you trust the smart people and get out of the way.

    It's how Netflix has gone from a joke company that mailed you DVD's to the most powerful entertainment outlet on the planet. Hire the smart people, and get the hell out of the way.

    Old school studios like Disney don't like this approach, they have layer after layer of idiots you have to wind your way through to make happy, and the end product gets watered down. It's like network TV, same thing. It's an antiquated terrible way of creating art.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 am
  • Art is in the eye of the creator, if you want it displayed tell the bean counters to put up the money and stand back and let them create, don't tell them that they can't have blood, violence, or a boob shot because Mickey Mouse won't like it, you want Mickey Mouse go to the theme park or the cartoon.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:57 pm
  • You guys remember the prequels, right?
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:13 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:You guys remember the prequels, right?


    Yeah, but didn't you hear TLJ ruined the franchise?
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:27 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:It's how Netflix has gone from a joke company that mailed you DVD's to the most powerful entertainment outlet on the planet. Hire the smart people, and get the hell out of the way.


    You do know Netflix puts out A LOT of shit, right? Bright, The Cloverfield Paradox, Hemlock Grove? Not everything they do is Stranger Things. For god's sake, they have a development deal with Adam Sandler, or have you not heard about the Ridiculous Six?
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:06 pm
  • I get Sgt's point, let the creative people do their job and get out of their way, but that's basically what they did with Rian Johnson. Sure, it's Disney so there's not going to be blood and guts and titties, but there wasn't really much of that under Lucas either, especially once he decided to kidify everything. Which he did. Disney didn't do that.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:10 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:I get Sgt's point, let the creative people do their job and get out of their way, but that's basically what they did with Rian Johnson. Sure, it's Disney so there's not going to be blood and guts and titties, but there wasn't really much of that under Lucas either, especially once he decided to kidify everything. Which he did. Disney didn't do that.


    You've got to be kidding me?

    Rian Johnson didn't so much as fart on set without a ten minute conference call with Kathleen Kennedy asking permission, and learning when, and for how long.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:57 pm
  • The_Z_Man wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:I get Sgt's point, let the creative people do their job and get out of their way, but that's basically what they did with Rian Johnson. Sure, it's Disney so there's not going to be blood and guts and titties, but there wasn't really much of that under Lucas either, especially once he decided to kidify everything. Which he did. Disney didn't do that.


    You've got to be kidding me?

    Rian Johnson didn't so much as fart on set without a ten minute conference call with Kathleen Kennedy asking permission, and learning when, and for how long.


    I assume you have recordings of these calls? What, were you working there as an intern or something?

    The point is that with both Rogue One and Solo, Lucasfilm brought in other directors to "fix" those movies, where with TLJ they didn't. So regardless of how much micromanaging they've done, which I'm sure is more than plenty, they let Rian Johnson finish his own movie, that he himself wrote. With which he seems plenty happy.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:34 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:You guys remember the prequels, right?

    I actually prefer the prequels to the sequels, though the prequels were pretty bad as well. The Last Jedi just seemed like a mish mash of ideas without a coherent direction. For example, the casino arch really seemed out of place in the movie. It was jarring, and it really just seemed like it was there to make a point about capitalism, and war time profiteering. If you want to make a point about capitalism do it in a way that fits into the context of the movie.

    People are mad at the movie not because it breaks off from the norm, people are not mad because Luke and Solo are dead, and they aren't mad because it deviates from the EU. People are unsatisfied with the movie because it has bland, uninspiring characters, the old characters such as Luke and Leia were handled poorly (Mary Poppins anyone?), the main character is uninspiring and really has no hurdles to climb, the villains are absolutely laughable, there is no eminent sense of danger, it all feels manufactured to me the viewer. The whole movie feels stiff, and contrived, forced even.

    The main problems with TLJ is that it seems like a giant spitball of ideas rather than a finished work. It is even more jarring as a viewer seeing the storyline blatantly contradicting elements in the first film. It is like this movie was trying to make every moment that "Luke I am your father" moment. The writer of the empire strikes back had to spend the whole movie setting that moment up. This movie relied on cheap shock value to keep the tension, and keep audiences watching.

    Each one of the prequels at least had a coherent plot. It was contrived, and it started to seem more like a political drama, but at least it had a direction. I can't say that about this movie.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:51 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:I actually prefer the prequels to the sequels, though the prequels were pretty bad as well. The Last Jedi just seemed like a mish mash of ideas without a coherent direction. For example, the casino arch really seemed out of place in the movie. It was jarring, and it really just seemed like it was there to make a point about capitalism, and war time profiteering. If you want to make a point about capitalism do it in a way that fits into the context of the movie.

    People are mad at the movie not because it breaks off from the norm, people are not mad because Luke and Solo are dead, and they aren't mad because it deviates from the EU. People are unsatisfied with the movie because it has bland, uninspiring characters, the old characters such as Luke and Leia were handled poorly (Mary Poppins anyone?), the main character is uninspiring and really has no hurdles to climb, the villains are absolutely laughable, there is no eminent sense of danger, it all feels manufactured to me the viewer. The whole movie feels stiff, and contrived, forced even.

    The main problems with TLJ is that it seems like a giant spitball of ideas rather than a finished work. It is even more jarring as a viewer seeing the storyline blatantly contradicting elements in the first film. It is like this movie was trying to make every moment that "Luke I am your father" moment. The writer of the empire strikes back had to spend the whole movie setting that moment up. This movie relied on cheap shock value to keep the tension, and keep audiences watching.

    Each one of the prequels at least had a coherent plot. It was contrived, and it started to seem more like a political drama, but at least it had a direction. I can't say that about this movie.


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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:17 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:I actually prefer the prequels to the sequels, though the prequels were pretty bad as well. The Last Jedi just seemed like a mish mash of ideas without a coherent direction. For example, the casino arch really seemed out of place in the movie. It was jarring, and it really just seemed like it was there to make a point about capitalism, and war time profiteering. If you want to make a point about capitalism do it in a way that fits into the context of the movie.

    People are mad at the movie not because it breaks off from the norm, people are not mad because Luke and Solo are dead, and they aren't mad because it deviates from the EU. People are unsatisfied with the movie because it has bland, uninspiring characters, the old characters such as Luke and Leia were handled poorly (Mary Poppins anyone?), the main character is uninspiring and really has no hurdles to climb, the villains are absolutely laughable, there is no eminent sense of danger, it all feels manufactured to me the viewer. The whole movie feels stiff, and contrived, forced even.

    The main problems with TLJ is that it seems like a giant spitball of ideas rather than a finished work. It is even more jarring as a viewer seeing the storyline blatantly contradicting elements in the first film. It is like this movie was trying to make every moment that "Luke I am your father" moment. The writer of the empire strikes back had to spend the whole movie setting that moment up. This movie relied on cheap shock value to keep the tension, and keep audiences watching.

    Each one of the prequels at least had a coherent plot. It was contrived, and it started to seem more like a political drama, but at least it had a direction. I can't say that about this movie.


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    Absolutely.

    Couldn't have said it any better.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:46 pm
  • You guys honestly like the prequels better than the sequels?
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:13 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:You guys honestly like the prequels better than the sequels?

    You probably don't remember that I said this right after Episode VII came out (or it may have been in the months of conversation that followed), but I stated that it didn't feel like Star Wars in some fundamental way - which the prequel trilogy did, for all its faults.

    Most of the newer Star Wars films feel more like re-branded general Sci-fi films.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:10 pm
  • Yeah I remember you saying that. I disagree, but I respect your opinion.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:48 am
  • The only movie I would say is worse than TLJ is Attack of the Clones, but that still had the Yoda fight scene so it had a redeeming quality. The only redeeming quality of TLJ was the throne room fight scene and seeing Yoda was cooler.

    And while I think Clones is probably a worse movie (because it really, really sucked), I'd probably still watch it again before I watched TLJ again
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:52 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:You guys honestly like the prequels better than the sequels?

    I didn't mind J.J Abram's take on Star Wars. To me it was perfectly mediocre. Not good, not bad, enjoyable to watch at times even. I have my gripes about it, mainly the lack of explanation about the first order, and the usage of humor at inappropriate times. It is a movie I would sit and watch for mindless enjoyment. Can't say the same about TLJ, I think TLJ is a movie that will get even worse as it ages. To me it felt like a filler, it didn't feel like a feature length film. It was schizophrenic. It didn't feel like a feature length film so much as it felt more like 3 smaller, unrelated movies -- each with a different director.

    The casino arch for example didn't even feel like a Star Wars movie. The setting, the overall plot point, it just didn't make sense for a Star Wars film. The second film, the space chase kind of gave of the vibe of a Star Wars anthology rather than an actual part to the trilogy. The third "movie" as I like to put it had more of a Star Wars vibe. Rey going to get training on what looks like a deserted planet. I kind of think the force telepathy bit was interesting between Rey and Kylo. I contend that the former two mini movies probably could have been cut out and nobody would be any the wiser.

    This movie was just pulled in so many different directions. It didn't know what it wanted to be. The humor was awkward, it came at times that destroyed tension, and it was like I was watching three different movies by three different directors. I don't think Rian Johnson had a clear vision of what he wanted it to be. There were also some confusing elements like Marry Poppins Leia. I think they should have just killed her off there, it would have given the movie more meaning and direction I think. Instead they give us a goofy deus ex machina moment. Luke's death was also strange, they could have made it so much more meaningful. Instead we got "see ya around kid".

    I like that they tried something new, it is just that it wasn't very good. Star Wars didn't know what it wanted to be.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:55 pm
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:56 pm
  • And yes, I know that most of you guys would probably actually prefer this to the one we got. I get it.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:42 pm
  • http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-h ... star-wars/

    I just happened upon this article today and it (mostly) sums up my thoughts and feelings on the subject. It's long af, but it's very well thought out and articulated (could use some editing, but that's the way it goes), if a little dramatic. If I had the time and the drive to fully express my feelings about the situation, I imagine it would come out something like this. But since I don't, I'm glad he did.

    To also be clear, I unabashedly loved The Last Jedi. And I have admitted time and time again that this opinion is probably worthless because I have now come to know a lot of members of the Johnson family. I’ve always been up front about this. So go ahead. Accuse me of bias. Throw out anything and everything I have to say. I accept it. But it also makes me want to talk about a dynamic I’ve wanted to point out for a long time, and that’s how it’s actually hard for lot of people in the entertainment industry to fake liking something. Why? Isn’t Hollywood supposed to be artificial? Well, if you haven’t noticed, we tend to be an opinionated bunch. And there have been so, so many times I’ve seen something made by someone I know, did not like it, and then felt intense anxiety as I quietly nodded and said nothing in response.

    It’s an agonizing feeling, to be honest. Which is exactly why you feel intense relief when you see something you actually love. And yes, I loved The Last Jedi. As did many, but I never thought I would love a Star Wars movie again in this way. I loved it for so many reasons, that I felt compelled to write about it opening night, for its beautiful recalculation of everything I had problems with not just in the previous film, but with the franchise in general. But perhaps I should have realized…

    Some people would not handle that recalculation well.

    But let’s make another thing clear: there is an intense difference between not liking something, or wishing it was something else, and the feeling of being betrayed by a movie and engaging in harassment.

    Cool? Cool.

    I’m glad we can agree on basic morality. The more nuanced argument, however, deals with the litany of strident people who kept insisting it was just “bad storytelling.” To the point that it has not stopped. It’s like every five seconds after I mention it, I get desperate pleas of just “IT’S BAD. JUST ADMIT IT’S BAD. WHY CAN’T YOU ADMIT IT’S BAD, WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU?!?!” Which is sort of an absurd way to talk to someone, let alone purse argumentation.

    It often comes with the assumption I am blinded by my obvious bias, and that is surely what’s preventing me from seeing that which they so clearly see as blatant ineptitude. They all seem to use the same story terms too; like how many Last Jedi haters have you seen argue that the film would fail a “screenwriting 101” test? But every time I point out that I literally wrote a book titled that, and explain why it wouldn’t, this only seems to lead to more indignation. It is downright impossible for them to think the storytelling of the film is on-point as hell, all because it does not reflect their emotional experience of watching it.

    And we really have to talk about this.

    I don’t care if you liked or didn’t like something. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But the opinion is not what matters. The point is that when you say something is “bad writing” or “bad direction,” I want to understand what you actually mean by that, and why you think that. And if you can only stammer out a few confusing words that add up to “that’s how I felt,” then I can’t understand you. And the simple truth is that applying the right words and backing them up with clarity, while showcasing an understanding of the nuance behind them, is literally what criticism is. Which is precisely why I take so much issue with critical culture trying assign a specific kind of value judgement, just because we think that’s what we’re supposed to do.

    But we shouldn’t. For example, I’ve been working on a piece that’s pretty hard on the thematic coherency of Blade Runner 2049 for like a year now, but if I use the word “bad” to describe anything about the film, you should just slap me. So when it comes to the larger discussion around The Last Jedi, and the kinds of application of language I’m seeing, I’m seeing so much language that is like “this is bad writing!” with completely mangled non-explanations of why. I’ll leave it to the following twitter comment as response: “@Alecsayswhenhes it’s like these people have no idea what the words ‘unnecessary’, ‘filler’, ‘story’, ‘character arc’, ‘undeveloped’ actually mean.”

    Throwing that kind of dismissive heat back at people is tricky. Because there is NO WAY it doesn’t come off as insulting to someone, just as there’s no way I don’t come off as highfalutin or pretentious for saying it. So it just puts me immediately back on my heels: NO, I’m not saying “you just don’t get it.” NO, I don’t think I’m the only one who understands writing. YES, OF COURSE we’re all just being subjective. AND YES, there’s endless layers of nuance and argumentation within criticism. But it’s all about treating the subject with that level of consideration, too, while clarifying the specific nature of your argument. You are not wrong for your opinion, but I come here to understand what you are really saying. And in turn, I want you to understand what I am really saying.

    So while I cannot take away your negative experience watching a given movie, what I have come to argue is that the storytelling of The Last Jedi played like a damn song, going from beat to beat with total clarity and acumen. No, I do not think it is full of bad writing. I think it is exemplary of very, very good writing.

    And I’m going to explain exactly why.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:35 am


  • Can't get the tweet to embed. Obi Wan movie news & rumors. Hot chick talking about it.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:21 pm
  • This video brings up some good points, I think. Not sure about the whole "Rey was created by the Force" thing, but good information on the whole Mary Sue situation.

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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:49 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:This video brings up some good points, I think. Not sure about the whole "Rey was created by the Force" thing, but good information on the whole Mary Sue situation.



    Also from this author: A detailed explanation of why water is not wet, why L. Ron Hubbard's books are shorter and better than you might think, how magnets cure arthritis, vaccines cause autism, and for you gals out there: how looks aren't really that important when it comes to landing the right man.


    Seriously though, Rey is the most textbook Mary Sue of all time. She's so over the top that she actually rivals the original Star Trek fanfic character the term is based on.

    Never picked up a lightsaber before, takes out a full blown evil Jedi Knight who's trained since he was a little boy.

    That's like you at age 16 waltzing up to Mike Tyson in his prime, getting into the ring with him with no training, and KO'ing him in the first round.

    It's MORONIC.

    It would not surprise me that over time this trope gets renamed the "Rey".

    Anyway, Zeb, keep at it. In another year or so, you may rival my futile 2 and a half year long defense of the Hobbit trilogy as being legit good movies... so I feel ya, I understand. When you love something and you just want it to be good, it's hard to let go.

    I was a legit Hobbit apologist... by the time the 3rd movie came out, I was still hanging on by my fingernails... "But it was filmed for 48 frames per second and no one has tried that before!"


    *sigh*
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:03 pm
  • The_Z_Man wrote:Anyway, Zeb, keep at it. In another year or so, you may rival my futile 2 and a half year long defense of the Hobbit trilogy as being legit good movies... so I feel ya, I understand. When you love something and you just want it to be good, it's hard to let go.

    I was a legit Hobbit apologist... by the time the 3rd movie came out, I was still hanging on by my fingernails... "But it was filmed for 48 frames per second and no one has tried that before!"


    *sigh*


    This isn't that. This movie grew on me. I didn't like a lot of it at first. I love Star Wars but the majority of Star Wars content that's out there I actually don't like. Despite what you may think, I am able to look at this stuff objectively and accept valid criticism and have criticism of my own.

    The Hobbit trilogy sucked but it was better than the Star Wars prequels haha.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:36 pm
  • People believe what they want to believe; it's human nature.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:50 pm
  • That is often true. I don't know if liking or not liking a movie constitutes a "belief" or not, but there's certainly some truth to what you say.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:07 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:People believe what they want to believe; it's human nature.



    It's also human nature to try to convince other people of what you believe and get them to agree with you...

    Like how certain people on Facebook stream endless political memes and posts for one side or the other, somehow thinking this will "enlighten" those folks who don't agree with them, and then get perplexed when their friends of the opposite political persuasion stop interacting with them. :roll:

    One of the breakdowns we've had in this electronic age is the ability to dialogue and have civil discussions with people who just don't see it like we do. It's a very odd little tribal thing.

    It's like with Zeb, totally disagree with him on that movie, but I DO understand where he's coming from. I've liked things for my own reasons that many other fans within a certain fan group absolutely hated, and that can be frustrating, so even though I give him a ration of crap, it's all good natured and I don't question anything about his character or make any presumptions on any essence of his character or likeability as a poster based on a movie he likes and I don't, because that's freaking ridiculous, and because opinions on movies are pretty fluid. There's stuff I used to love that I just don't love anymore, and there are things I used to hate that I found I suddenly like...

    You can disagree and be nice, you can even directly oppose a person's viewpoints and yet still like them. I firmly believe that.

    And sometimes, it isn't really to the benefit of the person who is arguing to be in the right. Like, for example, I really don't want Star Wars to suck, it's of no benefit to me that Disney is putting out these movies that make me want to throw popcorn at the screen. I'd be so much happier if I liked them.

    Like, you and I have a running disagreement about our new Offensive Coordinator, but far from carrying a grudge over it, or being mad at you because you don't see it the way I do, I'm actually HOPING that you're right and I'm wrong. :2thumbs:

    I'm just not narcissistic enough to want to be "proven" right about something that would end up ruining football for me this fall. ;) Also, if I am right about the back we drafted, and he is that special, and you are completely in the right about our OC, that would be the perfect storm, and life will be ever so sweet.

    That's the good thing about not being invested in being "right".

    It's often that case that being wrong is to our own benefit.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:33 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:People believe what they want to believe; it's human nature.

    The new Star Wars is certainly not a good film or story in my mind. It relies on deus ex machina to progress the story lines. Any medium that does that is bound to run into haters, in this case I'm included here.

    I also disagree with the assertion that Rey is not a Mary Sue. She is every bit as Mary Sue as Mary Sue herself was, and Mary Sue was supposed to be a satirical character. That is how bad Rey is written as a character. She understands Chewy better than Luke, a man who had spent years with Chewy, while she spent a few months at most with him. Her first time in the turret on the millennium falcon she shoots down three ships in one shot. First shot. Rey fixes a ship she has never been in before immediately when the former owner, Solo couldn't. She bests both Luke, and Kylo in combat with no real training. In fact, she essentially trains HERSELF when she is with Luke. This all happens without any backstory, or any explanation of why she is so strong, and able to best both a Jedi master, and a Sith knight. She just does. This is a symptom of bad character development and bad writing.

    Even though these are my observations, if Zebulon likes this Star Wars he is not in the wrong. It is just a personal preference. We all have our guilty pleasures, for example I love anime, but nobody in real life knows that I watch it. I would never admit to it in a million years either -- so I have to commend Zebulon for being so forthright about liking this Star Wars that is outright shunned by the Star Wars community. I will continue to bash on it because I was disappointed and saddened by the state of one of my favorite franchises, but if people like Zebulon like Disney's Star Wars all the more power to them. I'm not going to take it away from them, because our likes and dislikes are subjective. I will talk about it, and perhaps debate it, but at the end of the day no one here is right or wrong.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:31 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:Even though these are my observations, if Zebulon likes this Star Wars he is not in the wrong. It is just a personal preference. We all have our guilty pleasures, for example I love anime, but nobody in real life knows that I watch it. I would never admit to it in a million years either -- so I have to commend Zebulon for being so forthright about liking this Star Wars that is outright shunned by the Star Wars community. I will continue to bash on it because I was disappointed and saddened by the state of one of my favorite franchises, but if people like Zebulon like Disney's Star Wars all the more power to them. I'm not going to take it away from them, because our likes and dislikes are subjective. I will talk about it, and perhaps debate it, but at the end of the day no one here is right or wrong.


    This is where I'll disagree with you. Whatever happened to people manning up and admitting they love something that isn't great? Hell, we have whole threads on it, such as this one titled: Bad movies that everybody hates that you love.

    It's perfectly fine to love a film that isn't great. Normally, people are fine with admitting that a given film they love which most others don't is not in itself a great film, but they love it nonetheless - and that's perfectly fine. It's the opinions of some people that love the newer Star Wars films who think they are truly great and refuse to admit otherwise that annoys me.

    Just come out and admit it, it doesn't mean you love the crap any less...as Shakespeare says through Polonius in Hamlet: "To thine own self be true."
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:42 pm
  • Haha like you're any authority on what movies are or aren't great. Outside of your continually salty comments, we've actually had a pretty good, respectful conversation here.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:52 pm
  • yeah!
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    I should be in the sky with birds
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:44 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Haha like you're any authority on what movies are or aren't great. Outside of your continually salty comments, we've actually had a pretty good, respectful conversation here.

    All I know is there are a lot more people agreeing with my general consensus on the new Star Wars films now than there were in the months following Episode VII's release, and following the releases of Rogue One & Episode VIII.

    :Dunno:

    Must be sheer coincidence.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:05 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Haha like you're any authority on what movies are or aren't great. Outside of your continually salty comments, we've actually had a pretty good, respectful conversation here.

    All I know is there are a lot more people agreeing with my general consensus on the new Star Wars films now than there were in the months following Episode VII's release, and following the releases of Rogue One & Episode VIII.

    :Dunno:

    Must be sheer coincidence.


    That doesn't seem like very much to know, but as long as you understand that what you think about something has nothing to do with whether or not I like it, then we are on the same page. :2thumbs:
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:29 pm




  • Some interesting stuff.

    :salute:
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:44 pm
  • Why do you keep posting articles from shills? Look at his page - and who's sponsoring him.

    There's absolutely no way he could say anything negative about Star Wars, he'd lose big time money.

    :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:06 pm
  • I don't know what you mean. Do you even know who he is? I don't. I just happened across those videos today. And I don't know who's sponsoring him other than the Skillshare app he advertises for but I don't know what they have to do with Star Wars. Is there some other sponsor I'm missing? A quick browse through his other videos and the blog he links to reveal multiple pieces about Star Wars that are less than complimentary.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:12 pm
  • This is from the first page of the blog he links to: http://justwritemedia.com/blog/star-war ... edi-review

    Snoke’s untimely death is made all the more frustrating by the fact that it comes far too early in the trilogy. Supreme Leader Snoke is an extremely powerful force user, and a figure to be reckoned with, as is clearly shown during his scene with Rey and Kylo Ren. However, we are not given nearly enough time with him, or insight into his background, and like the character of Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace, he is quickly dispatched and forgotten.

    While The Last Jedi did not feel like a complete rehashing of previous films, this moment, and many others, directly referenced scenes in the original trilogy. The result is that the visual language of the film is at odds with its themes.

    One major complaint among fans over the past two years was that The Force Awakens felt too much like A New Hope. Now many fans have complained that The Last Jedi doesn’t even feel like a Star Wars film. But it’s not so much that Johnson failed to make a good Star Wars film, but that he relied too heavily on old tropes and imagery to help drive his story when his intention was to give us something new. Then again, in the places where he did offer entirely original material, some of it (like the Canto Bight Casino sequence) was unnecessary or underdeveloped.


    :Dunno:
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:43 pm
  • This is one of those websites that play themselves off as some "fan dude critic making it on his own" and needs support, but far from it.

    Always a clue... you never see just a youtube personality using high level unaltered clips... those cost THOUSANDS of dollars per use, and not even the big youtube stars with a million or more subscribers have the funds for that, so right off the bat you know you're dealing with a corporation with connections to the studio system who has access to all these clips. Each of these videos would probably cost a content provider at least ten grand to make in licensing fees alone... let alone the editing and scripts they are going off of here.

    And yet they have a "patreon" page? Maddening.

    IMO Nothing worse than a wealthy Hollywood insider company getting naive fans to send them money by pretending to be a fan page... worse, this is one of those sites that will pursuit lawsuits against any person who tries to countermand them, as a few people found out when they tried to argue against their various GoT perspectives.

    You link anything from this page on one of your own videos, you get the nasty gram from a Hollywood Lawyer. :twisted:

    I stumbled onto this site 2 years ago and started listening until I realized all the radical inconsistencies - often countermanding themselves, and the nonsense that was being spoken. One day they will say show X is the greatest of all time, and the next time it's show Y and show X is the worst.... it didn't take me long to realize that something was up, and then another GoT website who was small time, but had been around from the beginning, got curbstomped for taking their perspective on.... I mean, just WIPED out of existence!

    Takes some serious $$$$$$$$$ to just anniahlate a youtube channel like that. So other reviewers will tell people to stay the heck away from this site, and not even mention them....


    Notice that even the most ardent Last Jedi hatermongers, who must argue every little thing that everyone posts that is even remotely positive about TLJ-- do not comment on this sites vids...
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:02 pm
  • I've watched a few more of his videos and read a couple of his blogs and then checked out his Twitter. Even if everything you say is true, I still think he does a good job of presenting his arguments (and the opposition to them, on occasion). I don't agree with it all, and I definitely haven't taken in the majority of his content, but regardless of his motivations or inspirations, he comes across as genuinely knowledgeable on the subjects he discusses.

    Maybe it's just the fact that every Dom, Rick, & Jerry has been throwing around the terms "plot hole" and "lazy/bad writing" since this movie came out, every asshole on the internet is a critic, so when I hear a thoughtful, intelligent take that either alters or backs up my established opinion, I tend to give it credence. When I hear or read a review or critique that doesn't present pertinent information or opinion in a constructive, digestible way, and it fails to change my mind (which, despite what you guys seem to think, I am in fact open to), it just makes me more confident in my own opinion.

    Subjectively, I love this movie, I think it is a great Star Wars movie (though not without faults), and I've yet to hear or read an argument that sways me from that opinion. Objectively, I think this is a pretty good movie that suffers, in part, from trying too hard to be unpredictable and from the unfortunate responsibility of being the 2nd part in a yet to be completed 3 part story whose cohesiveness (or apparent lack thereof) remains to be fully established or realized. But also, in perception, from a vast, expansive fan base with a virtually insatiable expectation to see things exactly the way they want them to be. I know you guys think that last part is invalid or minor enough to be insignificant but I see it all the time, in virtually every conversation about why this movie is or isn't "trash", online or in person. So you'll have to forgive me if the idea sticks incautiously to my arguments.

    So yeah, whether or not Just Write is a reasonable source for conversations and information on writing, I don't know. It's one of many sources that I have used to dissect and critique my understanding and perception of the movie Rian Johnson wrote and the concepts and ideas he was attempting to convey through it.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm

Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:38 pm
  • The_Z_Man wrote:I loved this when it came out, and I love it today.

    A concise, thoughtful, and clear explanation of exactly what Last Jedi is...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdobc7jtQo&t=400s


    I watched that when it came out. Don't remember his take, though I feel like I remember him talking about expectations, and questions that were posed not being sufficiently answered. Definitely a big complaint people have that I don't really think is an issue. I'll try to watch it again when I get a chance.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:20 pm
  • Oof. That's a tough watch, man. It's all the same stuff, though. Unmet expectations. I understand why that makes people not like the movie. I do. I get it. It's fine to feel that way about it.

    He doesn't understand the movie though. And I don't mean that in like the traditional "you don't like it because you just don't get it" sense. Every specific he brings up that he doesn't think makes sense is explained in the movie. He goes on about how Luke was going to kill Ben, which he was never really going to do. He thinks Rey defeated Luke in a duel, which isn't really what happened. He doesn't think Rey should be able to use the Force because she's not Luke's daughter, which is fallacy., He doesn't think Rey would have taken the sacred texts because she "probably" agrees with Luke about the Jedi needing to end (I mean, really?), but there is no evidence of that presented in the movie, it's purely conjecture.

    While talking about the side mission to disable the hypserspace tracking he asks "why didn't they just hyperspace away and eliminate the entire plot?" which is explained very clearly in the movie, the multiple reasons why they can't do that. He bitches a lot about Holdo, and I get it, not my favorite stuff there. He bitches about space travel/physics or whatever and yeah, I get that too. It's not realistic in this or TFA. It's what it is though. if that ruins a movie for you then yeah, that movie isn't for you.

    He doesn't like that Luke Fforce projects himself because a) "we've never seen that before" and b) he ends up dying anyway, making the whole point of the Force projection moot. I could very easily go into why this is wrong and missing the entire point of the sequence, and in essence the entire movie, but I think you all at the very least understand that already, right?

    You don't like the things that happened in this movie, fine. But if you're not even going to attempt to come to an understanding of why they happened, then I'm not really interested in your opinion.
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Re: Solo (Spoilers) + Star Wars talk
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:44 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote: then I'm not really interested in your opinion.



    :) That's all you needed to say.

    Enjoy your island, dude, the beach is yours.
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