What happened to heavy-weight boxing?

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What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:00 pm
  • I love heavy-weight. Why? Because people get hit HARD...they get bloodied up, they get knocked out. I like to watch fights where people get hurt bad...I'm not so much into the style or the art of it.

    It used to be the biggest fighting sport. Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Marciano, Norton, Tyson, Holyfield, etc...but now it's gone...seems like it's dropped into mediocrity ever since the mid to late 90s. These days, it's all all about welter-weights and middle-weights and stuff. So what gives? Anyone have any idea?
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  • Lack of Olympic funding, Promoters were crooked, and MMA.
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  • What he said^

    I think MMA has take a huge bite out of boxing's ass over the last 15 years.
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  • there are many more opportunities for kids these days then getting their head kicked in on a daily basis, boxing is so corrupt, MMA is on the rise and there are just too many other options these days that were not available in the 90's even. Boxing is not a hobby its a ticket OUT for most kids.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:18 pm
  • With all due respect, I don't see MMA having much of a hand in this at all, if any. None of those guys would have been world class boxers. The demise of the heavyweight division was in progress well before MMA became popular. I would blame the popularity of football much more than MMA. There are literally dozens of theories.

    My favorite theory is that the heavyweight division was largely American in the golden age. People don't fistfight as much in America period as they did in yesteryear. Kids don't fight as often, and when they do, the punishment is more severe. People fight more in other countries than they do here, which is why the talent and popularity hasn't dipped as much from South American fighters in particular, but since the people of those countries are smaller in stature, the smaller weightclasses haven't suffered as much as the larger ones.

    Another theory is that a big kid in his 20's now didn't grow up with iconic American heavyweight boxers to idolize.

    It will be back. It is going to take a bigger than life personality or two, and then kids will aspire to be the next great heavyweight again.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:02 pm
  • My favorite theory is that the heavyweight division was largely American in the golden age. People don't fistfight as much in America period as they did in yesteryear.


    True, maybe we should make drive by target practice or stomping the new sport.

    We had Olympic fighters going to the Pros pretty much year in and year out, since the funding for Boxing and almost all sports for the Olympics is now private and not subsidized by the government much of Americans traditional power sports have diminished.

    Kids used to hang out in gyms and look for the opportunity to train if they showed any guts and or talent, groomed from a young age.

    Add in they have people running around throwing up lawsuits and warnings about concussions, aggressive tendencies, death etc. Martial Arts, Boxing, Football, and anythig else where you are combating another person is being watered down by the bleeding hearts group.

    Now add the Promoters, there used to be two major boxing commisions, WBA and WBC if I remember, Promoters and the commisions went at each other and they created the IBO if memory serves, they now also have the WBO. Additionally Bob Arum and Don King were instrumental in creating a lot of questions about fixing and embezzleing money for the guys he promoted. Arum was involved in Bribes and other activity as well. Throw in HBO marketing almost every big time fight and trying to promote it themselves and decide who the contestants would be and you can see a wave of corruption and monopoly thruout the US and in Boxing in general.

    Thats another bunch of reasons it's dieing in the states.
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  • Don King and other crooks buried the credibility of Heavyweight boxing long before MMA came along. And the effect was not limited to the States. The sport practically died out in Europe (where, hugely popular, it was previously almost guaranteed prime-time viewing). The Klitschko brothers sewed up what little competition remained.

    The bitching between WBA & WBC (and subsequent fallout, resulting in a hundred meaningless other commissions and belts) didn't help.

    A quick read of what passes for the sport now is only surprising in that it still exists.
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  • I think a lot of it is what I think 30-40 years from now will plague football. Watching guys like Ali and Holyfield amongst others barely being able to put a sentence together. Its not just heavyweights. Its boxing as a sport in America. Couple that with known thievery by the Don Kings of the world and the great American heavyweight is starting at TE or Power Foward rather than boxing.

    To add to that like Fester pointed out the 15 different belts and organizations isn't doing boxing any favors. Neither is there being only a couple major promotions and then having their fighters refuse to fight each other so the promoter gets 100% of the cut. Thats why there was a Marquez v Paq 4. Its stupid.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:00 am
  • Is Lennox Lewis still the champ? :)

    Honestly I'm trying to think of the last heavy weight champ I remember, that's what I come up with.

    Ok I'm off to google this and laugh at myself, it's probably been awhile huh?
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:59 am
  • Lewis retired as the champ..About Ali..He took a lot of shots on purpose as part of his rope a dope thing..It worked but at a price..Boxing screwed themselves by being crooked..Alis 1st belt- Liston took a dive..The Russian fighters while great..doesn't help the sport in america..I hope NFL is watching...(london crap)
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:13 pm
  • A lot of politics. A lot of Americans turning towards other sports. A lack of competition and excitement in the ones now competing.
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  • IndyHawk wrote:Lewis retired as the champ..About Ali..He took a lot of shots on purpose as part of his rope a dope thing..It worked but at a price..Boxing screwed themselves by being crooked..Alis 1st belt- Liston took a dive..The Russian fighters while great..doesn't help the sport in america..I hope NFL is watching...(london crap)


    Foreman seems to be doing okay...then again he would knock almost all of his opponents by the middle of the match if not sooner.
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  • Many good points made above but the sport being "crooked" would influence all divisions, not just the HWs. The easy answer to this question is the big 3. Football, basketball and Baseball. Consider the size of those athletes. Most would be HWs. There is zero money in the sport of boxing for 90% of the fighters. Most athletes good enough to box, at a high level, are good enough to play well enough to make money somewhere in the big 3. The corruption in boxing (and required commitment) does make the decision easier to NOT box when such choices are available.

    My dad boxed pro but had to quit to support my mom and I. Made him a tough guy to get along with. LOL.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:41 pm
  • HawkWow wrote:Many good points made above but the sport being "crooked" would influence all divisions, not just the HWs. The easy answer to this question is the big 3. Football, basketball and Baseball. Consider the size of those athletes. Most would be HWs. There is zero money in the sport of boxing for 90% of the fighters. Most athletes good enough to box, at a high level, are good enough to play well enough to make money somewhere in the big 3. The corruption in boxing (and required commitment) does make the decision easier to NOT box when such choices are available.

    My dad boxed pro but had to quit to support my mom and I. Made him a tough guy to get along with. LOL.


    There is more to boxing then being just an athlete, many different weight classes and all the big three cater to a skill set specific to that sport and position. Boxing has a multitude of styles, some with speed, some with size, some are just tough bastards, some that can endure and defend.
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  • What the hell is boxing??

    Seriously though...

    I'm more interested in a guy that can master multiple styles of fighting and put that skill on full display. Rather than watch a guy that has mastered a single craft. The biggest fighters boxing has are two old guys (Pac and Floyd)...and I would rather watch the Spurs play he Spurs than see that fight.

    Boxing is going the way of MLB, it's too boring compared to the competition.
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  • ↑ The MLB thing isnt real. TV viewing maybe. Attendance however is as good and in most places better than its ever been.
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  • SouthSoundHawk wrote:What the hell is boxing??

    Seriously though...

    I'm more interested in a guy that can master multiple styles of fighting and put that skill on full display. Rather than watch a guy that has mastered a single craft. The biggest fighters boxing has are two old guys (Pac and Floyd)...and I would rather watch the Spurs play he Spurs than see that fight.

    Boxing is going the way of MLB, it's too boring compared to the competition.


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  • Nobody wants to watch two men hugging each other for 2 hours. In other words, the fighters are boring right now
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  • CALIHAWK1 wrote:↑ The MLB thing isnt real. TV viewing maybe. Attendance however is as good and in most places better than its ever been.

    Cuz it's a much better game in person than on TV. True of ice hockey too. Football on the other hand is nearly the perfect TV sport.



    As for boxing, here's another theory I heard the other day....it's been hurt by not being on free (broadcast) TV since the 60s/early 70s.
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  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
    CALIHAWK1 wrote:↑ The MLB thing isnt real. TV viewing maybe. Attendance however is as good and in most places better than its ever been.

    Cuz it's a much better game in person than on TV. True of ice hockey too. Football on the other hand is nearly the perfect TV sport.



    As for boxing, here's another theory I heard the other day....it's been hurt by not being on free (broadcast) TV since the 60s/early 70s.


    That can't be right. I remember seeing Tyson knock out that one dude in under 10 seconds on basic TV
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  • That goes back the HBO situation with trying to promote and buy the rights to produce the fights, Pay per views etc. They have Monopolized it to a extent since they also hold the Purse strings.
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  • chris98251 wrote:That goes back the HBO situation with trying to promote and buy the rights to produce the fights, Pay per views etc. They have Monopolized it to a extent since they also hold the Purse strings.


    And some of that happened with Ncaa final fore. Not to distract the thread tho..but as I pointed out before, TBS and tNt had the Saturday final four games on while CBS had squat. They hijacked the games for mo money.
    Back on track, About 15 years ago they had Friday night fights which I think was about 3 rounder fights on Fox. Cant totally remember as it has been many years. And I had a cold one since then.

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  • SouthSoundHawk wrote:What the hell is boxing??

    Seriously though...

    I'm more interested in a guy that can master multiple styles of fighting and put that skill on full display. Rather than watch a guy that has mastered a single craft. The biggest fighters boxing has are two old guys (Pac and Floyd)...and I would rather watch the Spurs play he Spurs than see that fight.

    Boxing is going the way of MLB, it's too boring compared to the competition.


    Master multiple styles of fighting yet they almost always end up rolling around on the mat trying to get an arm bar.
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  • Greenhell wrote:
    SouthSoundHawk wrote:What the hell is boxing??

    Seriously though...

    I'm more interested in a guy that can master multiple styles of fighting and put that skill on full display. Rather than watch a guy that has mastered a single craft. The biggest fighters boxing has are two old guys (Pac and Floyd)...and I would rather watch the Spurs play he Spurs than see that fight.

    Boxing is going the way of MLB, it's too boring compared to the competition.


    Master multiple styles of fighting yet they almost always end up rolling around on the mat trying to get an arm bar.


    Which is grounded in reality. Real fights (when not broken up by spectators) tend to end up on the ground. Once there, certain moves are no longer effective and certain moves are that much more effective. Go watch early UFC when people still relied primarily on striking. The fights were still dominated by those with BJJ and Wrestling backgrounds.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Fri May 02, 2014 11:09 am
  • I think as more and more sports leagues have developed it has diluted the market. Boxing was popular when it was not competing for popularity with the NBA, NFL, and the other behemoth leagues of today. Even baseball was largely a Midwest-Northeast thing before going nationwide. Boxing was also a way for minorities to attain respectability in the eyes of Anglos-Saxons when few other avenues were available. The extreme subjectivity of outcomes also hurts the sport in a world where people are less patient with the fallibility of human judgment.

    Just a history teacher's take on the whole thing...
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  • Multiple sports & styles?

    Yes,,,and master of none. I find this cage fighting as boring as watching dry paint dry. They throw arm punches that are week, kicks that have to be staged. As someone said earlier its watching one try to get an arm bar on the others throat rather than any kind of fighting.

    If you want to see real kick boxers you need to watch the midget Chuck Norris, or Randal "Tex" Cobb. They at least has a great talent level of those sports as opposed to the new kids that can kick a bit and that's all.

    I understand my sport is out of favor right now but it isn't because of a superior product, its because of money that has decided to have this type of sport. I've always said put a real boxer in the cage with one of those guys and see how long they last. I'd wager an old fat out of shape Roberto Duran could put most if not all of those cage fighters on the floor in a pretty rapid time frame.

    As far as 2 guys hugging I agree the heavy weights have gotten out of hand with that. But the lighter weights are great to watch. anything above middleweights they need to be told to either fight or get points taken away. That will speed things up.

    And the worst thing is the greatest announcer of all time, Michael Buffer being forced to do commercials with Flo to make a living.

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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Sat May 03, 2014 11:54 pm
  • Not heavy weight, but that Mayweather vs. Maidana fight was damn entertaining. Best Mayweather fight in a long while.
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  • The Radish wrote:Multiple sports & styles?

    Yes,,,and master of none. I find this cage fighting as boring as watching dry paint dry. They throw arm punches that are week, kicks that have to be staged. As someone said earlier its watching one try to get an arm bar on the others throat rather than any kind of fighting.

    If you want to see real kick boxers you need to watch the midget Chuck Norris, or Randal "Tex" Cobb. They at least has a great talent level of those sports as opposed to the new kids that can kick a bit and that's all.

    I understand my sport is out of favor right now but it isn't because of a superior product, its because of money that has decided to have this type of sport. I've always said put a real boxer in the cage with one of those guys and see how long they last. I'd wager an old fat out of shape Roberto Duran could put most if not all of those cage fighters on the floor in a pretty rapid time frame.

    As far as 2 guys hugging I agree the heavy weights have gotten out of hand with that. But the lighter weights are great to watch. anything above middleweights they need to be told to either fight or get points taken away. That will speed things up.

    And the worst thing is the greatest announcer of all time, Michael Buffer being forced to do commercials with Flo to make a living.

    :les:


    I'm with ya, Les. I can't stand watching MMA/UFC. It's bad boxing/striking followed by minutes of two dudes struggling to wrestle each other into submission. Are there some good fights, knockouts and impressive talent? Definitely. But the majority is shite and I think is taking away some great talent that could land in boxing.

    UFC is like watching two dudes who wrestled their entire life get into a street fight. "Oh yeah, they threw a few punches and then started trying to beat each other on the ground, saw that outside of a bar last Thursday."

    Boxing is masterful and controlled fighting. I just enjoy the structure and competition of going toe-to-toe, I guess.
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  • MMA isn't taking any great talent from boxing. Boxers usually are taught from a very young age with the exceptions of a few late bloomers (Sergio Martinez and BHop). Most MMA fighters have wrestling backgrounds and the few that do have some hands in the octagon would be bums in the ring.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Sun May 04, 2014 10:39 pm
  • MMA was really interesting as a concept. When it took a Jiu jitsu fighter against a kickboxer to see what style was better, or a karate fighter against a street brawler. It was really compelling. But now, it is basically all a hybrid, as the previous poster said, wrestling mixed with dirty boxing. In the vast majority of the fights, nothing of note happens. The numbers are dropping quickly, and it figures to be all but extinct within the next few years, as it is simply a bad product. The sweet science, it is not.

    To hit on Mayweather really quickly, I think this fight was a perfect blueprint for how to beat him, and a more talented fighter would have. Again leads me to believe that he would get absolutely carved up by Manny. He doesn't have the power to keep Manny off of him. Barring a perfect punch that catches Manny well enough to put him to sleep, it is a one-sided fight. Floyd hasn't fought anybody in years and years, and I think we're starting to find out why. He'll never again fight anybody that he has a risk of losing his perfect record to. Sad.
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  • Klitcho bros only fight "tomatoe cans". Or they hug for two hours like a poster said. Boring at this point. I do think we just need an exciting phenom from America to galvanize interest. Then there needs to be some honest boxing instead of
    gimmicky stuff. Could happen! I edit to add: if the sport wants to survive there needs to be rules that address the elephant in the room or these same concerns we all have and make them audible. No fight rigging, no bogus clinching or reach strategies, rules that inhibit polital control from promoters and the like....
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  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    The Radish wrote:Multiple sports & styles?

    Yes,,,and master of none. I find this cage fighting as boring as watching dry paint dry. They throw arm punches that are week, kicks that have to be staged. As someone said earlier its watching one try to get an arm bar on the others throat rather than any kind of fighting.

    If you want to see real kick boxers you need to watch the midget Chuck Norris, or Randal "Tex" Cobb. They at least has a great talent level of those sports as opposed to the new kids that can kick a bit and that's all.

    I understand my sport is out of favor right now but it isn't because of a superior product, its because of money that has decided to have this type of sport. I've always said put a real boxer in the cage with one of those guys and see how long they last. I'd wager an old fat out of shape Roberto Duran could put most if not all of those cage fighters on the floor in a pretty rapid time frame.

    As far as 2 guys hugging I agree the heavy weights have gotten out of hand with that. But the lighter weights are great to watch. anything above middleweights they need to be told to either fight or get points taken away. That will speed things up.

    And the worst thing is the greatest announcer of all time, Michael Buffer being forced to do commercials with Flo to make a living.

    :les:


    I'm with ya, Les. I can't stand watching MMA/UFC. It's bad boxing/striking followed by minutes of two dudes struggling to wrestle each other into submission. Are there some good fights, knockouts and impressive talent? Definitely. But the majority is shite and I think is taking away some great talent that could land in boxing.

    UFC is like watching two dudes who wrestled their entire life get into a street fight. "Oh yeah, they threw a few punches and then started trying to beat each other on the ground, saw that outside of a bar last Thursday."

    Boxing is masterful and controlled fighting. I just enjoy the structure and competition of going toe-to-toe, I guess.


    Boxing isn't fighting, it's to fighting what the British standing shoulder to shoulder and firing at each other was to war.
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  • The Radish wrote: I've always said put a real boxer in the cage with one of those guys and see how long they last. I'd wager an old fat out of shape Roberto Duran could put most if not all of those cage fighters on the floor in a pretty rapid time frame.


    Really disagree. This has been tried, over and over. A pure striker in a MMA bout gets destroyed. An MMA fighter goes for the take down, gets him on the mat, fight is over.

    No matter how talented a boxer is, if he finds himself on the mat, game over. Without a doubt. And he will eventually end up on the mat, having to grapple, it's just a matter of when.

    Now there has been some striker/kick boxer type fighters who have had some success, but they learned to defend take downs, and learned to grapple a bit to get back on their feet. But those skills at an elite level would take years and years to master. A boxer couldn't learn something like that in a few months. It would basically be changing sports and devoting themselves to MMA full time for years, abandoning their old sport.

    Put an MMA fighter in boxing gloves, in a boxing match, the boxer wins. Put a boxer in an octagon in an MMA bout, MMA fighter wins. Pretty simple.


    Edit;

    I literally put about 10 seconds into this search, googled 'boxers who tried mma', my first result, didn't even look past it.

    http://fightland.vice.com/blog/another- ... ken-by-mma

    it was too late for the former boxing champion-turned-mixed martial artist; the time for heeding was past, and Mayorga, soft around the middle now and with only one MMA fight to his name (an ill-gotten TKO victory over a tomato can he beat with an illegal knee to the spine), walked into a cage in Nicaragua and promptly and inevitably got submitted by middleweight Rene “Level” Martinez, who may never be as good a mixed martial artist as Mayorga was a boxer (a world champion in two divisions, a 29-8-1 record, a cover story in Ring Magazine), but who, unlike Mayorga, is actually a mixed martial artist and not a dabbler and who did exactly what any mixed martial worth the name would do and has done every time a boxer dares/dared to try MMA: He took him down as soon as humanly possible and submitted him. No need to stand in the way of an artist’s fists when there are other options on the table.

    Mayorga is only the latest in a long line of professional boxers who have deluded themselves into believing that skill sets between combat sports are transferrable and that toughness is enough to win a fight. From James Toney to Ray Mercer and now to Ricardo Mayorga, the list of the hopefuls whose hopes were quickly dashed by a choke is growing long.
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Re: What happened to heavy-weight boxing?
Tue May 06, 2014 10:28 am
  • Tical21 wrote:MMA was really interesting as a concept. When it took a Jiu jitsu fighter against a kickboxer to see what style was better, or a karate fighter against a street brawler. It was really compelling. But now, it is basically all a hybrid, as the previous poster said, wrestling mixed with dirty boxing. In the vast majority of the fights, nothing of note happens. The numbers are dropping quickly, and it figures to be all but extinct within the next few years, as it is simply a bad product. The sweet science, it is not.

    To hit on Mayweather really quickly, I think this fight was a perfect blueprint for how to beat him, and a more talented fighter would have. Again leads me to believe that he would get absolutely carved up by Manny. He doesn't have the power to keep Manny off of him. Barring a perfect punch that catches Manny well enough to put him to sleep, it is a one-sided fight. Floyd hasn't fought anybody in years and years, and I think we're starting to find out why. He'll never again fight anybody that he has a risk of losing his perfect record to. Sad.



    I guess you havent watched Paq lately.
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    CALIHAWK1
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  • The Radish wrote:I've always said put a real boxer in the cage with one of those guys and see how long they last. I'd wager an old fat out of shape Roberto Duran could put most if not all of those cage fighters on the floor in a pretty rapid time frame.


    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvme71 ... 2010_sport
    Fight starts around the 9:00 minute mark.
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    Spounge84
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  • single biggest problem with professional boxing as i see it is it's not a real competition. prized prospects are carefully groomed and they fight nothing but cans and over the hill journeyman for years so they can amass a crazy looking win loss record which the promoters like. On the contrary a talented fighter who doesn't have good backers will never really get a change to move up in the ranks,.

    It's a corrupt system that doesn't develop a critical mass of good young fighters. it's like the Dallas Cowboys of combats sports - stars and scrubs.

    Wether you like MMA or not, the big fight promotions are all about competition. You're expected to fight frequently, the matchmakers put you with guys at your level and if you win you move up, you lose you move down. That simple. no protecting some fighters while ignoring others, no putting hotshots against cans to pad their records. Boxing needs to get back to that if it wants to have a chance to compete.

    And les/radish, if you think a boxer with no takedown defense can whoop an MMA fighter of similar caliber you are out of touch with reality my friend. That notion has been tested over and over for like, 25 years now. the result is the same every time. Boxer gets taken down and choked out.

    best regards,

    -h
    RIP Les. We will miss you.
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    Happy
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  • You guys are right, I didn't consider the take down part of it at all.

    thanks for letting me know.

    As I said, I realize my favorite is old potatoes now. I didn't really find fault with yours just said I didn't like it.

    There are really boring cage matches too,,,sadly.

    :les:
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    On to week two. Week one was not a fluke!
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    The Radish
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  • CPHawk wrote: Boxing isn't fighting, it's to fighting what the British standing shoulder to shoulder and firing at each other was to war.


    Welp, when the boxers, announcers, media and every one else calls an upcoming match a "fight," one can deduce that they will be "fighting."

    What is it then? You say it's not fighting and then include a ridiculous comparison to outdated war tactics... Please help me figure out what boxing is - if it is not a form of fighting.
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  • Les, an MMA fighter who's style I think you would enjoy is Chuck Liddell. He was as close to a pure striker as you'll get in top level MMA. He had amazing take-down defense, the jujitsu guys simply could not get him on the ground. Exciting fighter, always went for the knockout. I'd be curious to see what you think of his style after watching one of his highlight reels on youtube.

    I like boxing; it's the sweet science. It needs a full-on commitment to competition and fighter development to bring it back to it's former glory. I just don't see any entity in the fight game who has the focus and the capacity to make that happen.
    RIP Les. We will miss you.
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  • What happened to boxing? It went off the air.
    Richard Sherman doesn't just wanna get in your head, he wants to build a vacation home there.

    R. Sherman: "I don't want to be an island. I want to be a tourist attraction. You come, I take your money & you go."
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