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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:49 am 
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chris98251 wrote:
My worry as history has shown is that you move those two guys and they get a hitting coach that actually finds the flaw in what they are doing and bang All Stars. Been our history since I can remember. Ackely was a solid hitter till he came here, was doing well in Minors, same with Smoak.

Yeah Major league pitching is typically better but both initially hit up here and then fell off, Major League Pitching adjusted to them , they have not adjusted back. Usually that is a small thing as the chess match between hitters and pitching is always ongoing. One of the flaws of the Mariners over the years in my opinion. Good hitters have come in here and died also in trades. There is a reason and I don't know what it is. The hitters background argument has went away, they moved the fences in, what else?



while I understand your frustration and concern (all M's fans have the right to assume the worst of any move the team makes), i dont know of a hitter leaving here and "bang.. All-Star" happening (alteast no more than any other team), nor the impression we are a "AAA club" that only develops young players and ships them off. A-Rod and Griffey spent many successful years here in Seattle. Beltre was no better after he left Seattle.

Adam Jones is the club's one big mistake. Every club has that.

As for Smoak and Ackely, I would think that any major league player could list infinite ways in which the major leagues is far different and more challenging then the minors. and while Smoak, Ackely and Montero seem to have been washouts in terms of hitting, Seger, Franklin and Zunino seem to be adjusting quite well. Most minor leaguers see some success before pitching adjusts (i mean they are millionaire pitchers for what its worth). and while we can certainly blame coaching on their lack of development, they've had plenty of coaches. they both went back down to the minors and did little there (Smoak did turn into a fairly respectable average hitter, but he has limited power as a first baseman).

But more specifically, they dont serve a purpose with this club at the moment. Ackely just gave way to a 240 million dollar signing. Unless he suddenly becomes the centerfielder of the future (which is doubtful) then he's a good piece to move on. Smoak represents a bit more in terms of power and average than Ackely, but is as maddeningly inconsistent. Now Logan Morrison steps in to fill the same role as Smoak, only a little better.

there is more of a chance we move them on and they fade into the same role they fill for us than any chance of turning into all stars. And if a change of scenery was the motivation, then great for them. we cant change their scenery and keep them, so whats the point of keeping them? Let's say the new manager brings in a hitting coach of great merit, why not have better players around to work with him?

Both these players have positions being taken by better players. thats why they are tradeable pieces. if we get Gardner and Price (speculation ofcourse, ive no idea if we are going for either) for Smoak and Ackely (and a couple other pieces) arent we intrinsically better for it given we have Hart, Cano, Morrison already occupying their positions? who cares if they get better somewhere else? We would get better without them


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Going back, Cruz, Morse, Tartabull, Varatek, those are off the top of my head. I have been around for a while and remember a lot of guys we passed on and became stars, pitchers as well like Lowe.

Just saying we have had a history of bailing on guys jsut about the time they get it figured out.

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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:23 pm 
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I wouldn't give up on Ackley. I think they might have figured out what he was doing wrong. Last year when he was swinging earlier in the season he would be falling away from home plate as he was swinging which is a damn near impossible way to swing.

He corrected that towards the end of last year and had a huge August. I am hoping they actually identified the problem and figured it out because it was obvious to me watching that he had fixed that problem and the results followed in a big way.


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:28 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
Going back, Cruz, Morse, Tartabull, Varatek, those are off the top of my head. I have been around for a while and remember a lot of guys we passed on and became stars, pitchers as well like Lowe.

Just saying we have had a history of bailing on guys jsut about the time they get it figured out.


Cruz had it figured out before they traded him, they just overpaid for relief help. That is actually true in the Varitek case as well. The varitek case was extremely annoying because they packaged him up with Derek Lowe and got Heathcliff Slocumb. Slocumb was close to being released and we gave them two good future major league players for him.


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:46 pm 
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bigtrain21 wrote:
chris98251 wrote:
Going back, Cruz, Morse, Tartabull, Varatek, those are off the top of my head. I have been around for a while and remember a lot of guys we passed on and became stars, pitchers as well like Lowe.

Just saying we have had a history of bailing on guys jsut about the time they get it figured out.


Cruz had it figured out before they traded him, they just overpaid for relief help. That is actually true in the Varitek case as well. The varitek case was extremely annoying because they packaged him up with Derek Lowe and got Heathcliff Slocumb. Slocumb was close to being released and we gave them two good future major league players for him.


While Tartabull had a nice rookie year for us, i dont think he made more than one all star appearance. Morse had one good year when Seattle traded him. and while Cruz had a couple nice years in Toronto (two) thats not exactly damning. I dont like to talk about Varitek.

Ive been around awhile as well... i guess outside of Adam Jones I just dont see a "history" of bailing on younger guys (again, atleast not anymore than anyone else) who turn into phenoms. I mean the Twins bailed on david Ortiz... and we can say we've turned the tables and become quite the career boosters for players as well (Langston, Randy Johnson, Brett Boone, Olerud... that list would stretch alot deeper).

Either way, its subjective. I dont see Ackely having "figured it out"... but lets say you're right. What do we do with him?


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I would start at zero again, let him work in the Rainers, yeah a step back but he needs to get his consistency back, He really isn't a Center Fielder either, not by regular standards with arm and range. The problem I have is he is too good and smart not to figure it out. If we unload him it will be for peanuts at this point. He is a dilemma; if we could showcase him having his stroke back and we have a logjam we could at least get decent compensation. 12t round pick for a couple prospects just to move his salary, which isn't all that much is a total washout.

My thoughts of him getting it and it haunting us and trading him for peanuts versus your question are a conundrum.

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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:47 pm 
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I would like to mention that David Ortiz was traded with Varitek if I remember correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:52 pm 
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CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
I would like to mention that David Ortiz was traded with Varitek if I remember correctly.


Nope. Derek Lowe.


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:28 pm 
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bigtrain21 wrote:
CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
I would like to mention that David Ortiz was traded with Varitek if I remember correctly.


Nope. Derek Lowe.


Ahh, okay. When did we trade Ortiz?

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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:53 pm 
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CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
bigtrain21 wrote:
CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
I would like to mention that David Ortiz was traded with Varitek if I remember correctly.


Nope. Derek Lowe.


Ahh, okay. When did we trade Ortiz?


He was David Arias when he was Mariners property and we traded him as a player to be named later in the Dave Hollins trade.


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 Post subject: Re: Mariners to sign Cory Hart
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:18 pm 
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bigtrain21 wrote:
I wouldn't give up on Ackley. I think they might have figured out what he was doing wrong. Last year when he was swinging earlier in the season he would be falling away from home plate as he was swinging which is a damn near impossible way to swing.

He corrected that towards the end of last year and had a huge August. I am hoping they actually identified the problem and figured it out because it was obvious to me watching that he had fixed that problem and the results followed in a big way.

Ackleys problem is between the ears. Its lack of confidence and a horrible approach for the AB's. Correctable, if he isn't a total headcase, which is still up for debate.

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