The obsession with how many titles we have

Discuss any and all sports-related topics. From the College Sports to Baseball and everything in between. RATING: PG-13
  • I think my response to the OP is that if there is a hardware obsession by other fanbases, it is an obsession with their own hardware, not necessarily an obsession with our lack of hardware. That is to be expected, championships should be enjoyed obsessively :)

    If a discussion is about how much success a town has had in sports, trophies pretty much start and end the discussion. I have no problem with that. That is a historical discussion.

    The only time trophy-talk is obtrusive is when it occurs in the middle of a conversation about how well a team has performed over a specific time range. Most NFL discussions surround the current year and might include the last couple of years. If trophies are brought into the discussion, that isn't a sign of trophy-obsession, it's a sign of someone who has lost the argument within the current scope and needs to shift terrain to somewhere more favorable i.e. the historical scope.
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  • BreesIsOverrated wrote:I just find it funny that fans from the 49ers and other fanbases obsess that we haven't won a Super Bowl yet.... and that our city supposedly sucks as a sports town. I know we only have one major modern Pro title (1979 NBA)... but I never see the same thing being said about well... pretty much any other city. What makes us so much more hated than San Diego, Phoenix, Buffalo, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Nashville, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Cincinnati...etc and many more that have accomplished in most cases the same or LESS than our city has? It's like they have some personal vendetta against Seattle winning another title.

    They hate us because Russell Wilson will blow away their stinking five golden rings. This is what it's like being at the top--get used to it.
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  • HansGruber wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    BreesIsOverrated wrote:This is the dumbest argument ever. MLB has no salary cap, NFL does. And spend it wisely? Give me a break... Ok then, lets see how the Yankees would do with a $23 Million payroll instead of a $228 Million payroll. Money is everything in maintaining a championship franchise in the modern MLB.



    THAT'S the dumbest argument ever. I guarantee you if the M's had the biggest payroll we wouldn't be saying "oh well we're not very excited about this World Series championship, we had an unfair advantage." We'd be dancing in the streets just like Yankee fans do.

    But that's what I expect out of Seattle fans, we're great at justifying mediocrity for our sports teams. Falls right in line with all the other loser mentality excuses like "the league hates us"..............."the media hates us"..............."the refs hate us"................and all the other hairbrained conspiracy theories people puke up on here.

    One thing matters, and ONLY one thing. Rings. Doesn't matter how you get em. Period.


    Yours is kind of a dumb argument because you are arguing something entirely different than what he said, and you never disproved his point. He said baseball championships are bought. Which they are. We all know who will be in the World Series before it ever happens, and there are only a few teams worth watching, who all continually try to outbid each other for a championship. Are you arguing that is false?


    Not true at all. Look at these recent World Series winners, eight of them since 1998 have won with less than a 100 million payroll


    YEAR WINNER W-L PAYROLL
    2007 Red Sox 96-66 $143,026,214
    2006 Cardinals 83-78 $88,891,371
    2005 White Sox 99-63 $75,178,000
    2004 Red Sox 98-64 $127,298,500
    2003 Marlins 91-71 $48,750,000
    2002 Angels 99-63 $61,721,667
    2001 Diamondbacks 92-70 $85,247,999
    2000 Yankees 87-74 $92,938,260
    1999 Yankees 98-64 $88,130,709
    1998 Yankees 114-48 $63,159,898

    Does it help to have a big payroll? Of course. But to say you can buy a World Series is ridiculous. It still takes properly managing, GM'ing, signings, farm system, luck with injuries, etc.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    BreesIsOverrated wrote:This is the dumbest argument ever. MLB has no salary cap, NFL does. And spend it wisely? Give me a break... Ok then, lets see how the Yankees would do with a $23 Million payroll instead of a $228 Million payroll. Money is everything in maintaining a championship franchise in the modern MLB.



    THAT'S the dumbest argument ever. I guarantee you if the M's had the biggest payroll we wouldn't be saying "oh well we're not very excited about this World Series championship, we had an unfair advantage." We'd be dancing in the streets just like Yankee fans do.

    But that's what I expect out of Seattle fans, we're great at justifying mediocrity for our sports teams. Falls right in line with all the other loser mentality excuses like "the league hates us"..............."the media hates us"..............."the refs hate us"................and all the other hairbrained conspiracy theories people puke up on here.

    One thing matters, and ONLY one thing. Rings. Doesn't matter how you get em. Period.


    Yours is kind of a dumb argument because you are arguing something entirely different than what he said, and you never disproved his point. He said baseball championships are bought. Which they are. We all know who will be in the World Series before it ever happens, and there are only a few teams worth watching, who all continually try to outbid each other for a championship. Are you arguing that is false?


    Not true at all. Look at these recent World Series winners, eight of them since 1998 have won with less than a 100 million payroll


    YEAR WINNER W-L PAYROLL
    2007 Red Sox 96-66 $143,026,214
    2006 Cardinals 83-78 $88,891,371
    2005 White Sox 99-63 $75,178,000
    2004 Red Sox 98-64 $127,298,500
    2003 Marlins 91-71 $48,750,000
    2002 Angels 99-63 $61,721,667
    2001 Diamondbacks 92-70 $85,247,999
    2000 Yankees 87-74 $92,938,260
    1999 Yankees 98-64 $88,130,709
    1998 Yankees 114-48 $63,159,898

    Does it help to have a big payroll? Of course. But to say you can buy a World Series is ridiculous. It still takes properly managing, GM'ing, signings, farm system, luck with injuries, etc.

    Yankees were 1st in MLB in payroll in 1999 and 2000... 2nd in 1998. You didn't factor inflation at all. The only outlier is the Marlins, pretty much every other winner is nowhere near the bottom for payroll.
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  • This whole argument depends largely on your perspective.

    For the casual/bandwagon fan, it seems the most important thing watching the favorite team win NOW. History is irrelevant.

    For the football fan in general, seeing great football plays , regardless of the team (to some degree).

    For the franchise and seasoned fans, wins are most important, but not always this week; the overall picture is bigger than one week. This is where the history becomes valuable, and the supposed argument that "5 rings" matters a bit. The franchise and city it's tied to are bigger than the individual players or fans, and the logo/uniform takes priority over everything else.

    For the league, they don't care who wins, so long as it increases revenue. If the product they're marketing is less than profitable, then they could conceivably find a way to make it more so, even if that means giving some teams more difficult schedules, changing rules that seem to favor a certain team's approach.

    My take. Flame away.
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  • Baseball has more teams in the playoffs and world series in the last 20 years than either basketball or football, and by a considerable margin. The only thing the uncapped payroll does is make it nearly impossible for the bottom 3-4 to compete with the rest of the league. Except, Pitt made the playoffs, the Marlins have two WS, and even KC is close.
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  • Ninerg wrote:Let's compare to another sport. Do you think Yankee fans ignore their past championships? They still take great pride in the championships that were won going back to the Babe Ruth era. They would laugh at Boston, their most heated rivals, and accuse them of being cursed since had not won any titles since they let Babe Ruth go.


    This makes them stupid. (I hate both the Red Sox and Yankees FWIW, and think that people who think that the Sox are somehow way nobler than the Yankees because they've won fewer titles are really dumb.)

    To still bask in a title won during your time as a fan is one thing. To bask in titles won before you were so much as a clump of cells is another. Do I sit around being really proud about the USA's accomplishments in the Revolutionary War? "Take that, redcoats!" That crap has nothing to do with me. Titles your team won before you were ever a fan have nothing to do with you. You can be glad, I suppose, that your team has a storied history (and yes I'm glad that the Revolution went well, as far as that goes), but to throw that in anyone else's face in the present day is just incredibly dumb and makes no sense.
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  • HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:Deleted due to language


    Cap went into effect in 1994 after they won and they were busted for cheating the cap. That's why the other owners kicked DeBartolo out of the club. Well, that and the criminal stuff


    What were they cheating? Just curious. I was young at the time and still in grade school so I wouldn't know.
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  • dopeboy206 wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:Deleted due to language


    Cap went into effect in 1994 after they won and they were busted for cheating the cap. That's why the other owners kicked DeBartolo out of the club. Well, that and the criminal stuff


    What were they cheating? Just curious. I was young at the time and still in grade school so I wouldn't know.


    49ers cheated the cap to sign Deion Sanders from the Saints, Ken Norton Jr from the Cowboys, and a few other players.

    More info here:
    http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-27/s ... ken-norton

    Most old-school fans who were around back then remember it well. They had to cheat to get the ring in 1994, and it pissed off the other owners so bad that they continued to sue DeBartolo until he finally gave the team to family members.

    The 49ers were the epitome of bought and paid-for championships. They're the primary reason the salary cap was implemented (along with Dallas and Washington).

    And since the salary cap?

    JACK SQUAT. They've won nothing. There weren't even any 49er fans left in San Francisco (except for the older folks).

    That entire fanbase is a joke, and even gets laughed at in the Bay Area. Don't believe me? Go down there to a sports bar and watch what happens when one of the 49er posers talks trash to a Raiders fan. It's hilarious.
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  • I guess, for fairness, I should also mention that the only SuperBowl championship John Elway ever won was when Denver was cheating the cap as well. So it wasn't just the 49ers. The Broncos cheated the cap, and were never heard of again too.
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  • HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:Deleted due to language


    Cap went into effect in 1994 after they won and they were busted for cheating the cap. That's why the other owners kicked DeBartolo out of the club. Well, that and the criminal stuff


    What were they cheating? Just curious. I was young at the time and still in grade school so I wouldn't know.


    49ers cheated the cap to sign Deion Sanders from the Saints, Ken Norton Jr from the Cowboys, and a few other players.

    More info here:
    http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-27/s ... ken-norton

    Most old-school fans who were around back then remember it well. They had to cheat to get the ring in 1994, and it pissed off the other owners so bad that they continued to sue DeBartolo until he finally gave the team to family members.

    The 49ers were the epitome of bought and paid-for championships. They're the primary reason the salary cap was implemented (along with Dallas and Washington).

    And since the salary cap?

    JACK SQUAT. They've won nothing. There weren't even any 49er fans left in San Francisco (except for the older folks).

    That entire fanbase is a joke, and even gets laughed at in the Bay Area. Don't believe me? Go down there to a sports bar and watch what happens when one of the 49er posers talks trash to a Raiders fan. It's hilarious.


    You're sense of Niner history never ceases to amaze me. The idea that other owners pushed Eddie D out because of things that he did prior to 1994 is absurd. But please, don't let me intrude on your delusions
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  • BreesIsOverrated wrote:Yankees were 1st in MLB in payroll in 1999 and 2000... 2nd in 1998. You didn't factor inflation at all. The only outlier is the Marlins, pretty much every other winner is nowhere near the bottom for payroll.


    How'd you get from "you can buy a world series title" to "it's only fair if bottom of the payroll teams win?"

    Here's the facts, the Yankees have had the highest payroll in baseball for like 100 years now, and only have what, 26 titles? That's only a 25% success rate. So no, you can't always just buy yourself a title.

    But to get back on track, I have no problem with other fanbases obsessing over titles..........cause that's all that matters. There are no qualifications as to who should be able to enjoy them, or when you were born, or how they were won, or what sport they were won in. That's the beauty of sports, taking pride in your teams win or lose.
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  • Ad Hawk wrote:This whole argument depends largely on your perspective.

    For the casual/bandwagon fan, it seems the most important thing watching the favorite team win NOW. History is irrelevant.

    For the football fan in general, seeing great football plays , regardless of the team (to some degree).

    For the franchise and seasoned fans, wins are most important, but not always this week; the overall picture is bigger than one week. This is where the history becomes valuable, and the supposed argument that "5 rings" matters a bit. The franchise and city it's tied to are bigger than the individual players or fans, and the logo/uniform takes priority over everything else.

    My take. Flame away.


    Agreed. In example; If my Dawgs won the next 5 nattys, none of them would be more important to me than '91. They would all have the exact same value in my heart, in my head. It's about team legacy, past, current and future.

    I sincerely doubt any of us would be so quick to dismiss our 5 rings if we had them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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  • NorCal wrote:You're sense of Niner history never ceases to amaze me. The idea that other owners pushed Eddie D out because of things that he did prior to 1994 is absurd. But please, don't let me intrude on your delusions


    I never stated DeBartolo was pushed out for spending BEFORE 1994. The owners just got pissed and created the salary cap.

    DeBartolo was pushed out because of what did IN 1994. Jerry Jones was largely behind that movement, still angry that the 49ers signed away Ken Norton Jr. with a BS contract that paid a performance bonus against the previous season (what should have counted as guaranteed money).

    I understand how that might confuse you since you've only been a 49ers fan for 2 years now. Had you actually watched football in the early 1990's, you would recall very clearly all the news about the owners trying to push DeBartolo out of the league for cheating the cap. Jerry Jones went on national TV and said in no uncertain terms that your owner was a cheat, that the contract he signed with Norton was cheating, and that the owners were looking into it.

    Then, mysteriously, DeBartolo is summoned to New York, pressured to sell the team, refuses to do so. A few years later, he's caught buying off some senator, and guess who headed up the council that forced him to give up control of the team? You guessed it - Jerry Jones.

    Of course, the last thing I expect of any 49er fan is to know anything at all about football history. Your fanbase is the most casual fairweather fanbase in the NFL, with most of your own fans not knowing a single thing about your own history.

    Like I said before, your own city laughs at 49er fans. Go to any sports bar in the Bay Area it's a running joke that a 49ers fan is a Giants fan when they're doing well, a Sharks fan when they're doing well, and a Raiders fan when they're doing well. Admit it - the last time you were a serious football fan, you were wearing a black and silver Gannon jersey and rooting for the Raiders in Superbowl 37.
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  • It doesn't bother me teams talking about past Championships. England will always talk about the 1966 World Cup and teams like Ajax who won four European cups, Celtic with one in 1967, a lost final and several semi finals. These teams are all unlikely to win these Championships any time soon, if ever but the fact is they won them when so many big teams/countries have not.

    When the Seahawks win a championship, i'll probably hark on about it forever, no matter how good or bad the teams of the future are.
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  • The most hilarious thing? The 49ers kept on cheating the salary cap (and losing) all the way up to 2000, when it was finally proven by the league:
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... salarycap/
    http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/2- ... 766725.php

    Guess who headed up those investigations? Tom Benson of the Saints. Why would he care? Because the 49ers cheated the cap in 1994 to sign Deion Sanders (and win the last SuperBowl they would ever win), and he was pissed ever since. There was even a rumor that the investigation into DeBartolo's corruption scandal was prompted by Tom Benson getting into the ear of some very influential friends.

    DeBartolo was so hated by other owners in the NFL that they voted unanimously to take over control of the 49ers and sell the team. That was when DeBartolo finally gave the team to his family.

    What's funny is that 49ers fans aren't even aware of this stuff. I can keep posting articles all day long. Because I was actually around back then and remember all of it.

    See, many of us Seahawk fans have been fans since we were young kids. And we have always been fans. We were fans in 1992 when our team sucked worse than the Mariners. We stayed fans.

    Most Seahawk fans know a lot more about NFL history than 49er fans because unlike 49er fans, we don't change allegiances every year based on who's playing well.

    I know, I know... you really have liked the Giants forever. Well, expect for back in the 90's, when you were an Athletics fan. And somewhere in there you were a Raiders fan, so you're kinda an NFL fan, right?
    Last edited by HansGruber on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:Deleted due to language


    Cap went into effect in 1994 after they won and they were busted for cheating the cap. That's why the other owners kicked DeBartolo out of the club. Well, that and the criminal stuff


    What were they cheating? Just curious. I was young at the time and still in grade school so I wouldn't know.


    49ers cheated the cap to sign Deion Sanders from the Saints, Ken Norton Jr from the Cowboys, and a few other players.

    More info here:
    http://articles.philly.com/1994-09-27/s ... ken-norton

    Most old-school fans who were around back then remember it well. They had to cheat to get the ring in 1994, and it pissed off the other owners so bad that they continued to sue DeBartolo until he finally gave the team to family members.

    The 49ers were the epitome of bought and paid-for championships. They're the primary reason the salary cap was implemented (along with Dallas and Washington).

    And since the salary cap?

    JACK SQUAT. They've won nothing. There weren't even any 49er fans left in San Francisco (except for the older folks).

    That entire fanbase is a joke, and even gets laughed at in the Bay Area. Don't believe me? Go down there to a sports bar and watch what happens when one of the 49er posers talks trash to a Raiders fan. It's hilarious.


    So wait if they cheated to get Deion then they won 1 title in the salary cap era right?
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  • dopeboy206 wrote:So wait if they cheated to get Deion then they won 1 title in the salary cap era right?


    Yes, they won the 1994 Superbowl, first year of the salary cap. Later proven to be cheating the cap. So not sure if that counts, since they were not playing under the cap.
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  • I think what makes me laugh is when the Niner fans say we are 0-37 when they were 0-35. We should have had SB XL in year 28.
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  • The funny part is between Jerry and Benson is they have tried to leverage everything they could as an advantage, Jones wanting to use advertising revenue and not share merchandiseing income, Benson with the Bounty gate situation. Yet those two had created the biggest uproar over it and as you stated led commitees to oust someone that was more creative at circumvention then they were.
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  • chris98251 wrote:The funny part is between Jerry and Benson is they have tried to leverage everything they could as an advantage, Jones wanting to use advertising revenue and not share merchandiseing income, Benson with the Bounty gate situation. Yet those two had created the biggest uproar over it and as you stated led commitees to oust someone that was more creative at circumvention then they were.


    Yeah. Tom Benson even went as far as attacking DeBartolo on a personal and business level. I read somewhere that Benson was the one that got in the feds' ears about the political corruption scandal. He was pissed off about Sanders. And then Jerry came along and signed him. It's a funny club.
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  • MidwestHawker wrote:
    Ninerg wrote:Let's compare to another sport. Do you think Yankee fans ignore their past championships? They still take great pride in the championships that were won going back to the Babe Ruth era. They would laugh at Boston, their most heated rivals, and accuse them of being cursed since had not won any titles since they let Babe Ruth go.


    This makes them stupid. (I hate both the Red Sox and Yankees FWIW, and think that people who think that the Sox are somehow way nobler than the Yankees because they've won fewer titles are really dumb.)

    To still bask in a title won during your time as a fan is one thing. To bask in titles won before you were so much as a clump of cells is another. Do I sit around being really proud about the USA's accomplishments in the Revolutionary War? "Take that, redcoats!" That crap has nothing to do with me. Titles your team won before you were ever a fan have nothing to do with you. You can be glad, I suppose, that your team has a storied history (and yes I'm glad that the Revolution went well, as far as that goes), but to throw that in anyone else's face in the present day is just incredibly dumb and makes no sense.


    You're a weirdo. Most people pump their fists at Revolutionary War victories.
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  • HansGruber wrote:I guess, for fairness, I should also mention that the only SuperBowl championship John Elway ever won was when Denver was cheating the cap as well. So it wasn't just the 49ers. The Broncos cheated the cap, and were never heard of again too.

    What are you talking about, Hans? Elway won 2 SBs--SB MVP in the second one.
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  • HawkWow wrote:
    Ad Hawk wrote:This whole argument depends largely on your perspective.

    For the casual/bandwagon fan, it seems the most important thing watching the favorite team win NOW. History is irrelevant.

    For the football fan in general, seeing great football plays , regardless of the team (to some degree).

    For the franchise and seasoned fans, wins are most important, but not always this week; the overall picture is bigger than one week. This is where the history becomes valuable, and the supposed argument that "5 rings" matters a bit. The franchise and city it's tied to are bigger than the individual players or fans, and the logo/uniform takes priority over everything else.

    My take. Flame away.


    Agreed. In example; If my Dawgs won the next 5 nattys, none of them would be more important to me than '91. They would all have the exact same value in my heart, in my head. It's about team legacy, past, current and future.

    I sincerely doubt any of us would be so quick to dismiss our 5 rings if we had them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    We got cheated in 91 having to co-champ it. What would've happened if they let us play Miami? Miami sure as hell didn't want to find out. That debacle was a huge step towards a BCS playoff. All the old guys grasping at "tradition" who run the NCAA have to die off before we can get a true playoff system in college football.
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