Tension in the Mariners front office

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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:42 am
  • If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:01 pm
  • Pat Gillick and Lou got us those wins, Lou and Pat had historic clashes with Armstrong and Lincoln but winning kept a lot under wraps, Pat and Lou both left becasue of Lincoln and Armstrong.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:09 pm
  • Sports Hernia wrote:If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......


    He and Armstrong have pretty much run the show since 1993... I think he became ultimate leader in 2003?
    Last edited by Uncle Si on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:11 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Pat Gillick and Lou got us those wins, Lou and Pat had historic clashes with Armstrong and Lincoln but winning kept a lot under wraps, Pat and Lou both left becasue of Lincoln and Armstrong.


    Its not about who got the wins. Trust me I'm not trying to give them any credit. (Those clashes being Lou never feeling he had enough hitting to win)

    I'm saying their experiences in management are deep in the big hitter-ace pitcher mentality because of those successes

    Thus a Cano-Ibanez-Morales/King-Iwa-Price team is their perfect scenario
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:57 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......


    He and Armstrong have pretty much run the show since 1993... I think he became ultimate leader in 2003?


    Yes. He retired from running Nintendo of America around the release of the Gamecube in the US. I always admired him as the CEO of NOA--took his directives from Japan well but still saw how unique the US market was and made the right moves in the video game business.

    Just goes to show that being a good leader in one field doesn't mean you can do the same in another.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:51 pm
  • shouldnt be a surprise at all. fans have been calling for howie and chucky to step down for years now
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:27 am
  • This is an awesome expose.
    Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:This is an awesome expose.
    Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.


    Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

    I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:01 am
  • Happypuppy wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:This is an awesome expose.
    Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.


    Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

    I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.



    A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

    I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

    The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:37 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:

    A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

    I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

    The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.



    How about this. If it does not show incompetence I do not not what does.

    "By mid-day Friday, Seattle had heard that some team bid nine years and $225 million for Robinson Cano, so the Mariners upped their bid to $240 million and 10 years before apparently realizing the initial bid had come from themselves, too."

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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:08 pm
  • Happypuppy wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:

    A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

    I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

    The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.



    How about this. If it does not show incompetence I do not not what does.

    "By mid-day Friday, Seattle had heard that some team bid nine years and $225 million for Robinson Cano, so the Mariners upped their bid to $240 million and 10 years before apparently realizing the initial bid had come from themselves, too."

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas- ... urking.ece



    there's no question of the incompetence. there is two decades of frustration thats easily trackable. why is every attempt to find some sort of rationality in all this somehow defending these two... its just not.

    we've married ourselves to Cano. Like it or not. I've been hoping for a change at the top since Lou was tossing bases in the Kingdome. But we are here, as an organization.

    given that, do we really want to wholesale change right before the winter meetings? this is not a rhetorical question... i'm really asking.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:12 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Happypuppy wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:This is an awesome expose.
    Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.


    Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

    I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.



    A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

    I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?


    The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.


    I thought they needed 2 RH bats more than anything. Cano does nothing to change that.

    Personally, I think it is a mistake to assume advanced metrics is exclusive to low payroll. Boston, anyone?
    But far beyond those philisophical directions, if it's true that Seattle has a culture of no dissension from the lower ranks combined with a couple of guys who micromanage the manager, there will NEVER be success in Seattle.

    The Cano signing isn't the mistake, it's just a single piece of evidence that these guys are idiots. If they actually did outbid themselves, it takes on a whole new layer of ineptitude, because that would be a mistake made exclusively out of fear.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:23 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Happypuppy wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:This is an awesome expose.
    Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.


    Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

    I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.



    A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

    I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?


    The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.


    I thought they needed 2 RH bats more than anything. Cano does nothing to change that.

    Personally, I think it is a mistake to assume advanced metrics is exclusive to low payroll. Boston, anyone?
    But far beyond those philisophical directions, if it's true that Seattle has a culture of no dissension from the lower ranks combined with a couple of guys who micromanage the manager, there will NEVER be success in Seattle.

    The Cano signing isn't the mistake, it's just a single piece of evidence that these guys are idiots. If they actually did outbid themselves, it takes on a whole new layer of ineptitude, because that would be a mistake made exclusively out of fear.



    I get why outbidding yourself is a mistake... but why is signing the top free agent in the MLB sign they are idiots?

    Again, i'm just trying to round this conversation out. Cano is a Mariner. whats next?
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:48 pm
  • We are the Washington Redskins of the MLB with even less success. Just a straight up incompetent organization. I want to like the Ms, but I can't look at them with anything but slight disdain after their very public opposition to the Seattle basketball arena. I can't truly like this team until the current leadership is completely eradicated.

    I read the article, and there's nothing about it that surprised me.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:52 pm
  • It doesn't mean they are idiots. To my eye, it means they are desperate. If they accidentally outbid themselves, then they are idiots.

    But mostly, it just appears that intellectual dishonest, and in the case of the guy accused of rape, actual dishonesty, is part of the way they do business. So thinking that the Cano move may be undone by some other crappy move is both kneejerk, but still likely accurate.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:08 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:It doesn't mean they are idiots. To my eye, it means they are desperate. If they accidentally outbid themselves, then they are idiots.

    But mostly, it just appears that intellectual dishonest, and in the case of the guy accused of rape, actual dishonesty, is part of the way they do business. So thinking that the Cano move may be undone by some other crappy move is both kneejerk, but still likely accurate.


    No argument from me... And the desperation started with their attempts to sign Fielder

    I guess I'm just all in on this because.... Well really what choice is there. It either blows up in our face and the end of Jack Z and Lincoln follow...or it works and we start winning games.

    But like a long boring poker game, at least now its all in
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:10 pm
  • This piece should have been written a few years earlier. I rememeber when Baker and USSM were going back and forth and it seemed Baker was more interested in maintaining access to the program over hard hitting journalism. I am pleased that he published this at all though.
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Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:08 pm
  • Cano is a piece but I am not that keen on the Price rumors if true. The cost I am hearing us steep. We lost some good players last time for an arm.

    We can move Franklin and we have a log jam at first with Smoak and Montero. Maybe package both for a out fielder.

    I hate to give up in Ackerly but he is not an outfielder. He is a pretty decent infielder. We could keep franklin and move him if a good deal was to be had.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:37 pm
  • The Cano move is to little to late. Mariners should have signed Fielder a couple of years ago, instead of trading for Montero. The Cano deal had to be done for PR reasons, need to get those butts in the seats. The whole article just shows what a mess the front office is IMO and should of been reported years ago.

    Anyone know of a good Mariner forum?
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:43 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Smelly McUgly wrote:I believe that most of this is true. There is smoke here about, for example, the shift to acquiring players that hit dingers. Also, Chuck and Howard have long been incompetent in GM and managerial hires.

    And the sheer number of screwups in the Josh Lueke mold set a pattern of inability to properly GM for Jack Z.



    Its not a shift...these guys ran the team when we had 3 guys of 30+ and led the lead in homers (Tino junior and bones..with Edgar close)...they were running the show when we won 116. They bought Sexson and Beltre. The last ten years have been about diminishing return. Last three years about trusting the kids (and failing to offer appropriate support)

    They like big hitting and pitching. They've tried to get a big hitter in here for three years and Now they have.

    Key will be what's next. I'd love to see them gone. But let's not be so forgetful of who these guys are

    Seriously Ms fans...


    They have been trying to get a big hitter on the cheap. Should have pony up for Fielder rather then trade for Montero. Now they are desperate and go all out on the wrong player. The Cano deal is going to bite the Mariners in the butt, without a doubt.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:45 pm
  • haroldseattle wrote:The Cano move is to little to late. Mariners should have signed Fielder a couple of years ago, instead of trading for Montero. The Cano deal had to be done for PR reasons, need to get those butts in the seats. The whole article just shows what a mess the front office is IMO and should of been reported years ago.

    Anyone know of a good Mariner forum?

    Try Mariner Central.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:35 pm

Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:56 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......


    He and Armstrong have pretty much run the show since 1993... I think he became ultimate leader in 2003?


    Could be, I could be a year or 2 off when took over the CEO type position.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:01 am
  • "In Jack we trust." Boy do I feel like an idiot. He sure seemed like he had all the right ideas upon initial hire. I'm happy for Wedge - seemed like a humble guy in a bad spot trying to do right by his players.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:27 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:It doesn't mean they are idiots. To my eye, it means they are desperate. If they accidentally outbid themselves, then they are idiots.

    But mostly, it just appears that intellectual dishonest, and in the case of the guy accused of rape, actual dishonesty, is part of the way they do business. So thinking that the Cano move may be undone by some other crappy move is both kneejerk, but still likely accurate.


    I guess I'm just all in on this because.... Well really what choice is there. It either blows up in our face and the end of Jack Z and Lincoln follow...or it works and we start winning games.


    If poor personnel moves and losing would've gotten Howard and Chuck fired, they'd have been gone years ago.

    As for change right now, absolutely. If not properly managed (ie not getting more pieces), the Cano deal won't be enough now and will be an anchor around our necks down the road. Do we really want to give these guys more time to offer deals that will hamstring the a competent FO (if/when we ever get one)?
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:29 am
  • Question.. Who fires Howard?
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:00 am
  • Tech Worlds wrote:Question.. Who fires Howard?



    He's the CEO and (perhaps) majority owner of Nintendo. I believe owner who recently died had taken his majority stakes and handed them over in 2004.

    Howard only goes if there is a major change at Nintendo, the Ms are sold, or he retires/passes on
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:21 am
  • The suggestions and involvement by Lincoln and Armstrong by themselves don't necessarily constitute meddling. They demonstrate a desire to win at some level. But if you feel your manager is doing so poorly and missing so many of these obvious suggestions, then you probably hired the wrong guy and that's still on you.

    Or (and this is sure what it sounds like was going on) the reason for incessant suggestions is that you've hired a crap GM who builds a farm system full of young guys not one of whom pop at the major league level, you haven't wanted to expand payroll so you can get proven players in to ease the young players in or increase their success, and so basically you've asked your manager to do the impossible, it's not working, and you somehow think the answer is to pester him to death with suggestions that amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Jack Z is no great shakes and that has been plenty obvious. The rest of the stuff about him throwing guys under the bus...eh...I mean it's interesting but the main thing to me is that he sucks at his job and needs to go.

    As far as the Cano deal goes, yeah it's probably a desperation move but that doesn't mean I poo on it. ALL of these crazy deals become albatrosses down the road so that doesn't disqualify it. Cano is a legit superstar we overpaid like we have to do to get guys to Seattle, so what. We weren't spending anything anyways. The offense will be better. If they open the wallet again out of desperation and get another bat or two the offense might even be decent. I would definitely rather it not be Jack Z pulling the trigger on the deals but we can evaluate them as they happen.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:56 am
  • ...and people still bother to support this "team".

    Maybe they should take a look across the street and take a page from the 'hawks book on how to run a quality organization. I couldn't care less about this team, and won't until they blow everything up and start from scratch (excluding players that bust their ass for the city/fans).

    My M's hate is still sitting on the rack, collecting dust, and hasn't been touched in a few years. I can't wait to actually wear it (I love the hat), but I can in no way support the bullshit that is the Seattle Mariners. I'll go to High School games down the street and gladly spend my money to support those kids. Plus it never hurts to get out of the house and watch crazy parents do their thing.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:26 am
  • SouthSoundHawk wrote:My M's hate is still sitting on the rack, collecting dust, and hasn't been touched in a few years.

    Interesting typo there, or was it.....

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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:07 am
  • @Ken_Rosenthal: Just saw David Price's agent, Bo McKinnis. Asked if Price would consider extension with #Mariners. Said no.

    Well that's that lol.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:09 am
  • dontbelikethat wrote:
    @Ken_Rosenthal: Just saw David Price's agent, Bo McKinnis. Asked if Price would consider extension with #Mariners. Said no.

    Well that's that lol.


    which is good for this club...
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:22 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    dontbelikethat wrote:
    @Ken_Rosenthal: Just saw David Price's agent, Bo McKinnis. Asked if Price would consider extension with #Mariners. Said no.

    Well that's that lol.


    which is good for this club...


    Any deal for him would have included Tijuan. No deal.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:29 am
  • CALIHAWK1 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    dontbelikethat wrote:
    @Ken_Rosenthal: Just saw David Price's agent, Bo McKinnis. Asked if Price would consider extension with #Mariners. Said no.

    Well that's that lol.


    which is good for this club...


    Any deal for him would have included Tijuan. No deal.


    exactly
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:13 am
  • @JonHeymanCBS "taijuan walker looks untouchable, but mariners will consider trading top positional prospects for price, maybe even zunino"


    Posted a while back, but I think it was obvious when a deal didn't get done for Price. Rays would've definitely taken a deal for Walker and a little more.
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:51 am
  • Free agent first baseman/outfielder Corey Hart is headed to Seattle to provide Robinson Cano protection in the batting order, as he has agreed to sign a one-year deal with the Mariners, according to Jon Heyman.

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-bas ... h-mariners
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:59 pm
  • No trading Tajuan. There is always going for the Japanese pitcher especially since they changed the posting system today.
    43-8...it's all about that action boss....
    next man up.
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    MizzouHawkGal
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Re: Tension in the Mariners front office
Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:47 pm
  • ok so I don't pretend to follow the Mariners anymore, although I did tirelessly when I was a kid living in auburn, but could all of the problems in the front office come from having an owner who never watched a baseball game that the Mariners played?

    I'm not trying to ruin his memory, as the man clearly helped to save Seattle baseball, but it seems like so many other owners have their hands and eyes in all sorts of baseball operations, and here we have an obvious problem showing consistently, but there's no one above these guys to step in and make the necessary changes or at least put the fear of God in these guys to make things right.


    Just a thought. Feel free to rip it to shreds now.
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    rightbench
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