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  • MLS is it's own league. There's no reason why it has to follow the rest of the world. The Away goal rule is the dumbest system in the world, as said above.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    I hate penalty kicks, it's by far the worst part of deciding soccer matches. IMO it's the same as a basketball game being decided by free throws.

    I'm just fine with aggregate for this sort of format. Two matches is plenty of minutes to score more goals than the other team.


    That's precisely the point for the argument...none of the teams scored more goals other team. LA scored 2 goals and so did Seattle. Dallas scored 1 goal and so did Seattle. However the winning team scored an "away" goal. The weight of an away goal is more than a home goal. That's what is ridiculous. A goal is a goal whether it be home or away. That's why I hate the rule. I can understand having it in the first round or second round but definitely not in a championship series (which this was).
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  • Happens. We lost.

    We knew the format, we knew the rules. Didn't get the job done.


    Its ok.

    Still best sounders season on record.

    Have some roster spots to fill (replacing Yedlin), and some new money to spend.

    On to next year, and time to try to take on CCL again.
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  • This new tiebreaker is BS. It rewards teams that play stifling defense and score on fast breaks. ie, weaker teams. In the World Cup, that's the strategy the weaker teams employ to grab cheap wins off the better teams. LA just had to play at home to a 0-0 draw and if they got a cheap goal on a fast break, then gravy. They couldn't afford to play that way under the old system.
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    I hate penalty kicks, it's by far the worst part of deciding soccer matches. IMO it's the same as a basketball game being decided by free throws.

    I'm just fine with aggregate for this sort of format. Two matches is plenty of minutes to score more goals than the other team.


    That's precisely the point for the argument...none of the teams scored more goals other team. LA scored 2 goals and so did Seattle. Dallas scored 1 goal and so did Seattle. However the winning team scored an "away" goal. The weight of an away goal is more than a home goal. That's what is ridiculous. A goal is a goal whether it be home or away. That's why I hate the rule. I can understand having it in the first round or second round but definitely not in a championship series (which this was).


    That's why I said "more" goals.

    This is how every league and tournament in the world is decided that uses a knockout format. One match to decide it all? Yeah, extra time and PK's. But multiple match format? Aggregate + away goal weight.

    How is this any less fair that something as stupid as PK's? You see it all the time in the World Cup when inferior teams have a chance to advance, they bunker down and hope for PK's because they know that's the best chance of beating a superior team.

    So it doesn't matter the format, there's still strategy involved in how you play. There is no perfect format other than letting the two teams play until their legs fall off.
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  • This years playoffs were much more open attacking soccer across the board. Away goals gives incentive for away teams to push forward...in years past the away teams bunker....and bunker...and bunker....
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    253hawk wrote:MLS has the stupidest playoff format in the history of sports.

    I can't disagree with this.



    so does UEFA?

    come on... the playoff format is used by the worlds biggest annual soccer "tournament", and heartily enjoyed.

    I don't care it's a stupid method. Aggregate goal should mean just that no qualifiers. And if you're tied you go with an extra period and penalty kicks if needed.



    you miss the point of aggregate I think. its trying to avoid something like penalty kicks.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:you miss the point of aggregate I think. its trying to avoid something like penalty kicks.


    Yep.

    Ask any owner, manager or player and they loathe PK's, they'd much rather settle it on the field either with extra time or aggregate score.

    Like I said, 180 minutes plus extra time is plenty of time to win a series. Saying you'd rather see a series settled by PK's, which is the most random resolution possible makes no sense to me.
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  • For those complaining...it could be worse. Before penalties it used to be decided by toss of a coin. Celtic beat Benfica after tieing 3-3 over two legs and extra time with this method in 1969. Celtic complained about the method to UEFA even though they won and UEFA changed to PK's not long after.
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  • The reason the away tiebreaker is stupid is where it's implemented. If it was a tie with the away goals. Then they would have played extra time. So why not play extra time first, then if still a tie go the tiebreaker? Considering the time between matches, there's no reason to do away with extra time. I can understand moving away from PK. But I don't agree with eliminating the extra period. I didn't like it when the Sounders benefitted from it against Dallas. I think it's dumb and a bad decision on MLS part to add it. The rule was made in the 50s or 60s....it's now outdated.
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  • It would be great if they just keep playing until someone scores. That would really be fun to watch.
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:The reason the away tiebreaker is stupid is where it's implemented. If it was a tie with the away goals. Then they would have played extra time. So why not play extra time first, then if still a tie go the tiebreaker? Considering the time between matches, there's no reason to do away with extra time. I can understand moving away from PK. But I don't agree with eliminating the extra period. I didn't like it when the Sounders benefitted from it against Dallas. I think it's dumb and a bad decision on MLS part to add it. The rule was made in the 50s or 60s....it's now outdated.


    So go to extra time and THEN use an aggregate tie breaker system?

    That's just not done, anywhere.........and for good reason. 180 minutes + extra time is plenty of time, adding another 30 minutes that 90% of time time results in no one scoring doesn't accomplish anything other than some hurt and tired players.

    I'm telling you the reason the rules for both knockout matches and aggregate matches are what they are is because owners, manager and players have all given input over time and this is what they agreed upon is the best way to settle two match playoffs and one match winner take all matches.
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  • The whole away goal thing seems to benefit whoever plays at home first. Just turtle your ass off, then you can be a bit more aggressive the next match when your goals basically count as 2.
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  • 253hawk wrote:The whole away goal thing seems to benefit whoever plays at home first. Just turtle your ass off, then you can be a bit more aggressive the next match when your goals basically count as 2.


    It benefits no one, that's why it's fair.

    By your logic the Sounders could have played for more goals in LA because they count for more. The Sounders actually had the advantage because most teams want the 2nd match in front of their home fans.

    But strategically? I don't see any advantages, because no matter what the outcome of the 1st match, both teams know what they have to do in the 2nd.
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  • I see it like college football OT. Let the other team go first, that way you know exactly how much you need to do when it's your turn. You don't kick a field goal if they scored a TD; you're in 4-down territory.
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  • 253hawk wrote:The whole away goal thing seems to benefit whoever plays at home first. Just turtle your ass off, then you can be a bit more aggressive the next match when your goals basically count as 2.

    Give the man a cookie. For those not keeping up a goal should mean EXACTLY the same regardless of geographic location. Dumbest rule ever bar none.
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    253hawk wrote:The whole away goal thing seems to benefit whoever plays at home first. Just turtle your ass off, then you can be a bit more aggressive the next match when your goals basically count as 2.

    Give the man a cookie. For those not keeping up a goal should mean EXACTLY the same regardless of geographic location. Dumbest rule ever bar none.



    and yet, the world's most competitive soccer tournament swears by it... lets not confuse naivety with ignorance of the game.

    away goals dont benefit any one team more than the other, until one is scored. you can be the first home team but outmatched by your opponent. the idea that the home team would "turtle" is contrary to the philosophy and tactics the home teams employ to begin with and shows the lack of understanding of the rule (and to a point, the sport). being a "bit more aggressive" on the road holding a 0-0 in your pocket is the same as being a "bit more aggressive" on the road to start the tie.

    The point of the away goal rule was to get teams to play more open, attacking soccer when traveling. This isnt rocket science, but people who argue against this rule show a naivety in understanding the tactics (and history) of the game. prior to the rule (and even now), away teams bunkered. they played for 0-0. people are underestimating a. how easy it is for teams to bunker to zeroes. 2. how awful those games are to watch. 3. the impact of "home field" advantage in soccer.

    the away goals gave caoches inspiration to come out of their shells. it basically states that if you play attacking soccer away from your grounds, and still give up a goal (even two) you can get something from the tie.

    this is coming off as condascending, and i dont mean it to, but its very difficult to explain the notion of the rule without pointing out its origins and how it impacts strategy and tactics. I argued this earlier that I thought the aggregate rule wasnt a good fit for MLS. However, i argued it because I dont think the players skill level and the tactical understandings of the coaches are nuanced enough to make it worthwhile. I also dont think the regular season sets enough precedent for it.

    Any long time fan of the PL is aware of watching good attacking teams hit a brick wall against the lower tier teams. (rainy January nights at Stoke come to mind). when you've seen enough games hindered by those types of tactics the idea of aggregate scoring becomes far more appealing. The MLS doesnt produce those types of games (not often, atleast) and despite what some strong MLS supporters on here think, the "attacking" of the final four teams wasnt enhanced by the aggregate scoring more than simple matchups of good attacking teams did. Once away goals were scored good attacking teams had to attack more. It made for decent soccer. now, imagine a skilled team like Chelsea, barcelona, etc. forced to attack and not just hold. When truly fantastic teams are forced to change tactics it is an absolute joy to watch.

    aggregate scoring just adds to that. If you dont want aggregate scoring the next best option is one game playoffs, which to me are also poor representations of the sport.

    my only problem with aggregate scoring is the insistance to allow away goals to count as weighted in extra time. once it goes to ET, the away goal rule should fall away. (maybe it has now, i dont know)
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  • Yes, yes, away goals do benefit one team, the lower seed. The lower seed always gets the away goal advantage if the higher seed doesn't score first. Don't you get it?

    Please quit making the argument that other leagues swear by it. That means nothing right now. Sounders screwed and got screwed big time. It's a DRAW. 2-2. new game. How much harder is it to explain that? Go into extra time. Play until a winner is found. Why settle the series based on a goal that the lower seed won?
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  • dumbrabbit wrote:Yes, yes, away goals do benefit one team, the lower seed. The lower seed always gets the away goal advantage if the higher seed doesn't score first. Don't you get it?


    That's the same as saying the higher seed gets an advantage if THEY score the away goal first on the road.

    They're both true, thus a fair system.

    The Sounders did play aggressively in LA to try and get an away goal, and failed. Thus advantage lost. So you can spin this anyway you want, but the system's not weighted in anyone's advantage. There's tactical advantages on both sides of the draw.

    If you'd like to debate which system is better, aggregate or extra time + PK's? That's fine, but enough of the tactical advantage nonsense for aggregate away goal.
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  • and yet, the world's most competitive soccer tournament swears by it... lets not confuse naivety with ignorance of the game.
    Who cares? They also swear by flopping just because it's a rule does not make good or even sensible. Basically if you insist on a 2 game aggregate goal setup that should mean if after 2 games you are tied you play extra time and then PK's or extra time until the cows come home if you think PK's suck. Or extra time but sudden death first one who scores wins.

    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.
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  • Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.

    I understand the reasons for the away goal rule, the other team has to attack more. But is that really how you want the playoffs setup? One team always gets a disadvantage. In pretty much North American sports, if there's a draw at the end of regulation, extra time is played to determine a winner. Why can't MLS be the same? an aggregate draw at the end of regulation means that whoever scored the last away goal wins. That hardly makes sense. A draw = a win for one team.
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  • dumbrabbit wrote:Yes, yes, away goals do benefit one team, the lower seed. The lower seed always gets the away goal advantage if the higher seed doesn't score first. Don't you get it?

    Please quit making the argument that other leagues swear by it. That means nothing right now. Sounders screwed and got screwed big time. It's a DRAW. 2-2. new game. How much harder is it to explain that? Go into extra time. Play until a winner is found. Why settle the series based on a goal that the lower seed won?



    they got screwed by playing in a format they knew about ahead of time and not doing what was needed to win?

    the fact that "other leagues" (including the Champions League) swear by it means everything, as it is why the MLS did it. If you cant see the benefits than keep biting the pillow.

    how in the world does it benefit any one team over another? youre under the impression (wrongfully) that starting at home is some advantage or disadvantate. its not. ive heard coaches argue preference for either. If the Sounders got an away goal (i'm assuming you rated them as the higher seed) then they suddenly have an advantage that will play out at home. but, if they start at home (as LA did), and play a 1-0 (win, as LA did) then they take a goal advantage plus the appeal of needing just one goal to settle the draw. not to mention any team that scores first, in any game, under any format, now has an advantage). no scenario benefits one team over the other before the ball has been kicked, which is why it is fair. the fact it exists opens the game up more.

    You cant "play until a winner is found" (i mean you can, but anyone that has watched extra time soccer can give you a fairly reasonable explanation as to why its not that much fun. sometimes, as in last years CL final, it explodes. other times, like the 2010 and 2014 World Cup final, its a tepid affair where teams look more like punchdrunk heavy weight fighters in the 15th round than exciting elite footballers) when the games are already 90 minutes (on only 3 subs per game) 30 minutes of extra time exisists if aggregate scoring is level. avoiding it is why the do home and away to begin with.

    the argument against it removes the basic premise of its existance: to add more to the game while keeping it fair. to suggest it benefits one team more than another (outside of existing talent) before the games start is naive, and honestly just sour
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    and yet, the world's most competitive soccer tournament swears by it... lets not confuse naivety with ignorance of the game.
    Who cares? They also swear by flopping just because it's a rule does not make good or even sensible. Basically if you insist on a 2 game aggregate goal setup that should mean if after 2 games you are tied you play extra time and then PK's or extra time until the cows come home if you think PK's suck. Or extra time but sudden death first one who scores wins.

    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.



    they swear by flopping?

    christ on a bike.

    who cares? well the MLS obviously. Most soccer fans as well. and obbviously you've no idea how the aggregate scoring works. if an away team wins 3-0, then the next game they start with a 3 goal lead. if the away team than wins 3-0. then they are tied. if the away team wins 3-1, then they lose 4-3 (because goals and addition and all that). if they win 4-1 then they win the tie 4-4 by having more away goals.

    where you came up with 6-0 means you need to take a break from the thread.

    they dont want extra time or PKs. i dont know why you dont understand that. the players dont. the coaches dont. thats why their is aggregate scoring.
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  • dumbrabbit wrote:Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.



    away goals benefit the team that scores them. doesnt matter when. you act as if they are given to only one team.

    again, aggregate scoring is set up to advance attacking play and to avoid extra time. extra time soccer becomes laborious and often leads to injury and poor play. teams are allowed 3 subs. usually by 90 minutes those subs have been used. most players after 90 minutes have already ran 8-12 miles. asking them to run another 30 doesnt improve the spectacle.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    and yet, the world's most competitive soccer tournament swears by it... lets not confuse naivety with ignorance of the game.
    Who cares? They also swear by flopping just because it's a rule does not make good or even sensible. Basically if you insist on a 2 game aggregate goal setup that should mean if after 2 games you are tied you play extra time and then PK's or extra time until the cows come home if you think PK's suck. Or extra time but sudden death first one who scores wins.

    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.



    they swear by flopping?

    christ on a bike.

    and obbviously you've no idea how the aggregate scoring works. if an away team wins 3-0, then the next game they start with a 3 goal lead. if the away team than wins 3-0. then they are tied. if the away team wins 3-1, then they lose 4-3 (because goals and addition and all that). if they win 4-1 then they win the tie 4-4 by having more away goals.

    where you came up with 6-0 means you need to take a break from the thread.

    they dont want extra time or PKs. i dont know why you dont understand that. the players dont. the coaches dont. thats why their is aggregate scoring.

    I know EXACTLY how it works thank you. You NEED to read what I said and stop telling me I have no clue how soccer works. I said IF the visiting team gets 3 goals to none for the home team in the first game they are up 3 goals regardless and just have make sure they aren't outscored by 4 goals. It's dumb so deal with it, they can literally be dominated (3-0 is a wipeout in soccer) and still win rather then actually having to have an aggregate score that actually superior by whatever means. Be that extra time, extra time with sudden death, PK's or a combination of them. More likely you get a tie in aggregate like Los Angeles and Seattle which means they should play on as detailed above like any other North American professional sport.
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.


    What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

    Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

    You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

    /discussion
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    and yet, the world's most competitive soccer tournament swears by it... lets not confuse naivety with ignorance of the game.
    Who cares? They also swear by flopping just because it's a rule does not make good or even sensible. Basically if you insist on a 2 game aggregate goal setup that should mean if after 2 games you are tied you play extra time and then PK's or extra time until the cows come home if you think PK's suck. Or extra time but sudden death first one who scores wins.

    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.



    they swear by flopping?

    christ on a bike.

    and obbviously you've no idea how the aggregate scoring works. if an away team wins 3-0, then the next game they start with a 3 goal lead. if the away team than wins 3-0. then they are tied. if the away team wins 3-1, then they lose 4-3 (because goals and addition and all that). if they win 4-1 then they win the tie 4-4 by having more away goals.

    where you came up with 6-0 means you need to take a break from the thread.

    they dont want extra time or PKs. i dont know why you dont understand that. the players dont. the coaches dont. thats why their is aggregate scoring.

    I know EXACTLY how it works thank you. You NEED to read what I said and stop telling me I have no clue how soccer works. I said IF the visiting team gets 3 goals to none for the home team in the first game they are up 3 goals regardless and just have make sure they aren't outscored by 4 goals. It's dumb so deal with it, they can literally be dominated (3-0 is a wipeout in soccer) and still win rather then actually having to have an aggregate score that actually superior by whatever means. Be that extra time, extra time with sudden death, PK's or a combination of them.



    im not going to argue anymore with you, but here is your quote: "Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid."

    so again, tell me you understand and why the other team would have to win 6-0 again? maybe you need to read what you wrote?

    whats dumb is your insistance its not fair and dumb. teams dont want extra time. they dont want penalties. your insistance on defending a format the actual participants wants to avoid reveals you're not all that interested in how soccer works.

    sorry, i sound like an a--hole, and i dont want to. but the argument against it simply ignores the fact that the system itself was created to make the game as enjoyable as possible at the insistance of those that coach and play it.

    its not perfect. the alternatives arent either. nothing ever is.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.



    away goals benefit the team that scores them. doesnt matter when. you act as if they are given to only one team.

    again, aggregate scoring is set up to advance attacking play and to avoid extra time. extra time soccer becomes laborious and often leads to injury and poor play. teams are allowed 3 subs. usually by 90 minutes those subs have been used. most players after 90 minutes have already ran 8-12 miles. asking them to run another 30 doesnt improve the spectacle.


    Then give each manager another substitution each 30 minutes played, or finish play another day. I still don't understand why one team benefits from only having to score one away goal.

    It defeats competition from the home team in the first game, they just have to defend their home turf, if they don't allow scoring, then they just need to score a goal the next game and they'll advance.

    Every North american sports league has odd-numbered series, why can't MLS do it? It's less confusing and better talent will always win.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.


    What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

    Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

    You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

    /discussion

    Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.

    Also why can't it be 2 out 3 sudden death extra time and sudden death PK's in the third game? The bulk of the time the better time will win outright without the sudden death aspects coming into play.
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  • dumbrabbit wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.



    away goals benefit the team that scores them. doesnt matter when. you act as if they are given to only one team.

    again, aggregate scoring is set up to advance attacking play and to avoid extra time. extra time soccer becomes laborious and often leads to injury and poor play. teams are allowed 3 subs. usually by 90 minutes those subs have been used. most players after 90 minutes have already ran 8-12 miles. asking them to run another 30 doesnt improve the spectacle.


    Then give each manager another substitution each 30 minutes played, or finish play another day. I still don't understand why one team benefits from only having to score one away goal.

    It defeats competition from the home team in the first game, they just have to defend their home turf, if they don't allow scoring, then they just need to score a goal the next game and they'll advance.

    Every North american sports league has odd-numbered series, why can't MLS do it? It's less confusing and better talent will always win.



    the idea is that the away goal system allows teams to play more freely, and thus make each game more "neutral". Home field advantage is significant in European soccer (look at the stats some time). it doesnt defeat competition. that home team knows that giving up an away goal can be critical, but also know they only get 90 minutes in front of their supporters. the away team knows they can really gain an advantage by attacking, but also know that if they concede a goal they will need to be more careful in the return leg. again...it adds nothing to either team until the first touch of the ball.

    Soccer doesnt want extra time. it was only 20-30 years ago that they didnt allow subs period. Seriously, just 11 guys. no subs. they want coaches and players thinking and strategizing the whole time. and while i'm not against adding a sub, it starts to muddle the two teams from a purist standpoint (my 11 against yours).

    3 games is worse than just one in my opinion. you will always have one team with the extra home game, and soccer is a sport where repetitiveness does not lead to efficiency.
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.


    What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

    Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

    You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

    /discussion

    Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.



    hyper aggressive after 90 minutes of a soccer match? again, go back to my examples of the 2010 and 2014 world cup finals. the players were exhausted to the point half of them were not even crossing half field. the players have just run 90 minutes straight in excess of 8+ miles (midfielders and wingers are nearing 12-15 miles by the 90th minute)

    extra times in the world cup are golden goal. it doesnt change the soccer that is played. its like saying if a marathon was tied at the end, just go ahead and run another 10k to sort it out
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.



    away goals benefit the team that scores them. doesnt matter when. you act as if they are given to only one team.

    again, aggregate scoring is set up to advance attacking play and to avoid extra time. extra time soccer becomes laborious and often leads to injury and poor play. teams are allowed 3 subs. usually by 90 minutes those subs have been used. most players after 90 minutes have already ran 8-12 miles. asking them to run another 30 doesnt improve the spectacle.


    Then give each manager another substitution each 30 minutes played, or finish play another day. I still don't understand why one team benefits from only having to score one away goal.

    It defeats competition from the home team in the first game, they just have to defend their home turf, if they don't allow scoring, then they just need to score a goal the next game and they'll advance.

    Every North american sports league has odd-numbered series, why can't MLS do it? It's less confusing and better talent will always win.



    the idea is that the away goal system allows teams to play more freely, and thus make each game more "neutral". Home field advantage is significant in European soccer (look at the stats some time). it doesnt defeat competition. that home team knows that giving up an away goal can be critical, but also know they only get 90 minutes in front of their supporters. the away team knows they can really gain an advantage by attacking, but also know that if they concede a goal they will need to be more careful in the return leg. again...it adds nothing to either team until the first touch of the ball.

    Soccer doesnt want extra time. it was only 20-30 years ago that they didnt allow subs period. Seriously, just 11 guys. no subs. they want coaches and players thinking and strategizing the whole time. and while i'm not against adding a sub, it starts to muddle the two teams from a purist standpoint (my 11 against yours).

    3 games is worse than just one in my opinion. you will always have one team with the extra home game, and soccer is a sport where repetitiveness does not lead to efficiency.

    And you wonder why it never really catches on here. It needs to be Americanized for it to be really successful and Americans like definitive results in their sports contests. Again who cares what Europe does? That's like the NFL caring what the CFL does. Heck with all the different leagues they change the substitution rules and roster makeups anyway and then you have what the World Cup does.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.


    What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

    Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

    You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

    /discussion

    Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.



    hyper aggressive after 90 minutes of a soccer match? again, go back to my examples of the 2010 and 2014 world cup finals. the players were exhausted to the point half of them were not even crossing half field. the players have just run 90 minutes straight in excess of 8+ miles (midfielders and wingers are nearing 12-15 miles by the 90th minute)

    extra times in the world cup are golden goal. it doesnt change the soccer that is played. its like saying if a marathon was tied at the end, just go ahead and run another 10k to sort it out

    The World Cup has different substitution and roster rules. Those can and are changed all the time, it's pretty amazing how the game changes if you have a few more players to a roster and allow for more substitution or even unlimited substitution.

    The goal here is not to be exactly like the Europeans but to make the game popular in America, we don't like ties or inconclusive results.
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  • no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

    the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

    Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

    You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

    /discussion

    Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.



    hyper aggressive after 90 minutes of a soccer match? again, go back to my examples of the 2010 and 2014 world cup finals. the players were exhausted to the point half of them were not even crossing half field. the players have just run 90 minutes straight in excess of 8+ miles (midfielders and wingers are nearing 12-15 miles by the 90th minute)

    extra times in the world cup are golden goal. it doesnt change the soccer that is played. its like saying if a marathon was tied at the end, just go ahead and run another 10k to sort it out

    The World Cup has different substitution and roster rules. Those can and are changed all the time, it's pretty amazing how the game changes if you have a few more players to a roster and allow for more substitution or even unlimited substitution.



    no the rules are not different. yes you can add more players to your roster (rosters are expanded due to the length of the tournament and the fact that training and game injuries in a foreign location would make it difficult to get home players to the tournament, plus the experience i imagine is awesome for the players).

    however, the substitutions are the exact same in every major soccer competition and league across the world. every team gets 3. once you're out you're out. that rule is not in any danger of changing

    you can add more subs, but then you are changing the entire complexity of the event

    and whats this "we" stuff? you? America? the goal "here" is for the MLS (and soccer) to establish itself as a major sporting attraction in the US. it has gone a long way to doing that, probably alot more than you can imagine. it has gotten as far as it has because of the Bacelona's, Madrids, Liverpools, Uniteds, Ronaldos, Messis, etc. and will continue to mirror what European leagues due to attract fans that love the game for what it is (better) somewhere else
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  • Uncle Si wrote:no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

    the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

    Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

    the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

    Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.



    this actually makes no sense. nothing ive said alters your perception of it, but thankfully your perception of the format (and soccer) is one not shared by very many. but its pretty much reflective of your whole take on this. youve been shown stepping on your own ignorance a few times and have yet to respond. (including the notion that sudden death doesnt exist in sports, or that overtime soccer is completely opposite of the league table formats every league uses... honestly, you told me not to "tell you about soccer" but you really dont seem to understand it much. which is fine. but a few people are trying to extoll the virtues of a set up and how it benefits the game and you try and tell us it needs to be more "American"... sweet, lets put on some some Toby Keith, shoot some guns and drive some g-d d--n trucks while we're at it)


    youre honestly wishing away the success of the league because it carries on traditions from its predecessors, one being a rule you dont like

    umm.. yeah, good luck with that. we get it, you dont like the rule.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

    the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

    Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.



    this actually makes no sense. nothing ive said alters your perception of it, but thanfully youre perception of the format (and soccer) is one not shared by very many. but its pretty much reflective of your whole take on this. youve been shown stepping on your own ignorance a few times and have yet to respond. (including the notion that sudden death doesnt exist in sports, or that overtime soccer is completely opposite of the league table formats every league uses... honestly, you told me not to "tell you about soccer" but you really dont seem to understand it much. which is fine. but a few people are trying to extoll the virtues of a set up and how it benefits the game and you try and tell us it needs to be more "American"... sweet, lets put on some some Toby Keith, shoot some guns and drive some g-d d--n trucks while we're at it)


    youre honestly wishing away the success of the league because it carries on traditions from its predecessors, one being a rule you dont like

    umm.. yeah, good luck with that. we get it, you dont like the rule.


    So apparently our opinion means nothing now? Why does MLS have to go with what other leagues use? It's a dumb rule. Play extra time, then PKs. I don't see how an aggregate draw equals a win for one team.

    Just because other soccer leagues use it doesn't mean that MLS has to.
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  • bit naive, no? who is "our"? again, your opinion isnt the majority. The MLS adopted these rules. many of the fans on this board have defended it. these rules have made perfect sense to soccer fans, players and coaches for a long time.

    the fact you dont like them doesnt mean the rest of the world is holding you hostage. you say its dumb. i disagree. (although, again, i dont think it fits the MLS. but the rule i do like). none of our opinions matter. if you are trying to speak for the majority of MLS fans i think you'd find yourself in a short line.

    but again (answered in another post) it makes perfect sense for the MLS to follow the structure of other leagues as much as possible. they are trying to build something here on top of the popularity of the sport. The sports popularity is due to the popularity of the European leagues and its players. Im not sure why that argument is hard to understand.

    The MLS stands alone in a couple things (scheduling time frame, promotion/relegation) and even those are under scrutiny.
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  • I believe they just started to use the away goal rule this season. MLS first season of play was in 1996. So for 18 years they didn't use the rule. They made this change for 2014 post-season. It is what it is and even though I don't like the rule, it seems here to stay.

    If injuries are the reason to use this rule, then why even bother having playoffs. Just let the top teams in each conference play each other for the championship. After 34 games, it should be easy to determine who the two best teams were by the table (total points).

    If MLS is trying to gain audience in the United States, then rule goes against what would help them do just that. There's no reason to catch the first game in the series because it doesn't mean much when there are two matches. I like soccer so I tuned in. But a lot of people probably tuned out or will tune out because of the way the Seattle- Dallas series ended and how the Seattle- LA Galaxy series ended.
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:I believe they just started to use the away goal rule this season. MLS first season of play was in 1996. So for 18 years they didn't use the rule. They made this change for 2014 post-season. It is what it is and even though I don't like the rule, it seems here to stay.

    If injuries are the reason to use this rule, then why even bother having playoffs. Just let the top teams in each conference play each other for the championship. After 34 games, it should be easy to determine who the two best teams were by the table (total points).


    now you're talking. I'd love to do away with the whole stupid playoff and just use the table. (not very "American" but...). wouldnt even mind a championship game from it (although I'd prefer just first place).

    Injuries are not the reason, but one of a handful of reasons why soccer organizations have tried to limit extra time opportunities as much as possible. and while the MLS has been in existance for some time, its playoff format has changed considerably, and very much so recently. the aggregate system, for example, came about in 2012. away goals do not limit extra time either, only add a dynamic to the aggregate scoring system.

    anyways, my opinions have been done to death. i like it. i dont feel like the Sounders got cheated. (if anything, iid prefer to do away with conferences and playoffs). i believe it is inherent on the success of this league to mimic foreign leagues as much as they find possible. those leagues have been massively successful for decades and are right now making billions. the MLS seems to believe it and have made several changes (not just in playoffs but from grassroots level up)
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  • MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..


    Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

    You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

    THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..


    Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

    You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

    THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.


    Again, your only argument is that the rest of the world does it.

    My opinion won't change, my Sounders love won't change either way.
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  • So post after post detailing the benefits of the system as well as why the MLS benefits by mimicking European leagues and My only argument still is "that other leagues do it?" Shocker.

    reading isn't your friend. Really don't expect your opinion to change, which is sad as its misguided apparently because your team lost. I adore your "my love for the Sounders" quip at the end, as if all of those supporting away goals just hate the Sounders.
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  • Done with this discussion. Sounders lost. Galaxy won. Always next year. It'll be interesting who they pick up this offseason.
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  • Question, what was thr format before aggregate away goels being worth more?

    What would happened if after the two aggregate games it was 0-0?

    Curious because i was not aware of the changes they make to the MLS playoff format.
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  • sammyc521 wrote:Question, what was thr format before aggregate away goels being worth more?

    What would happened if after the two aggregate games it was 0-0?

    Curious because i was not aware of the changes they make to the MLS playoff format.



    if its 0-0 it goes to extra time (actually happens alot in the CL) really any time the aggregate scoring and away goals are the same it is extra time. they changed to aggregate scoring in 2008 (best I can tell) and adopted the away goal rule in 2014. the format before 2014 was just aggregate scoring. before 2008 it was just one game playoffs? the number of teams has increased since 2012 and will again next year. (which begs the question of "why bother")

    the purpose of the rule, above all is else (and there are a handful of reasons), is to increase scoring. Smurf is quite certain that it opened up play in this years MLS playoffs. He watches alot more MLS games than I do so i'd trust him.
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  • dumbrabbit wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    MizzouHawkGal wrote:
    By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..


    Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

    You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

    THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.


    Again, your only argument is that the rest of the world does it.

    My opinion won't change, my Sounders love won't change either way.


    You only want to understand half the equation, because if you admit you understand the entire equation you'd have to admit you're wrong.

    Yes the rest of the world does it, but they do it because it's a better and fairer system that every league, owner, GM, manager and player on the planet agrees upon.

    Why are you arguing for a solution that no one inside the world of soccer wants to see?
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  • It's just my opinion, man. We all have opinions. I say MLS should do away with the rule, you say it shouldn't.

    Why should an aggregate draw equal a win for one team? Just play 30 more minutes and then PKs. Or just make the series a one game, winner take all.

    FC Dallas got screwed by the away goal. Now Seattle got screwed by the goal. Is the Galaxy really the best team in the Western Conference?

    If there was no away goal rule, I'm certain Dallas would be in the MLS Cup final, or they would have lost by one goal to their opponent in the conference championship. What's so bad about 30 more minutes of playing time? The World Cup adds playing time for draws at the end of regulation, don't they? They have a playoff system just like the MLS does. Why can't MLS do it?
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  • they are not getting "screwed" by it. its not as if the rule only exists for one team. had Seattle or Dallas scored then it would have benefitted them.

    Soccer wants to avoid extra time. as i have said, it is very taxing on the players and the product becomes very subpar. Last year's CL final was an aberration, with 3 goals in E.T. The last two World Cup finals have gone to extra time and have been dire to watch.

    I understand your frustration, but I feel its only because it hurt your favorite team, and that sort of clouds your evaluation of it.
    The World Cup is different than the MLS playoffs. They add extra time because they are playing a one game playoff, not a two legged tie. the two are not comparable. If you want to go back to a one game format than sure. The World Cup also does not have E.T. in their preliminary rounds, so its clear. They play for 3 points or one. Only when its knockout is ET and PKs an option. I literally do not know one person who wants anything to be decided by pens
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