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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:40 am 
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If it was the past 3-4 years of crap then yeah fire jack z. But it's been more then a decade. It is ownership. Heck the owner of Nintendo who owns a majority of the team has not seen a live game in years. This team has some corner stones but shit falls down hill. And you start at Armstrong. Heck giving Felix money is the only thing giving the young guys hope to get money from the mariners. NO ONE wants to play here. The fact the Felix staying means he really does love it here. And the money was nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Hawkfan77 wrote:
hawkfan68 wrote:
Only Montero? Half the team should be in Triple AAA. You could probably include Smoak and Ackley with Montero. For pitchers Maurer should be sent down. Harang should be waived. Don't understand why he's still on the team.

Why should Smoak be sent down?


Because he has done jack squat since becoming a Mariner. He doesn't get hits on a consistent basis. He can't hit for a good avg nor does he provided needed power. He's basically a Brendan Ryan at first base.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:11 am 
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I don't think Wedge and the coaching staff should be immune from criticism as well. Ackley and Montero were considered can't miss by everyone, not just the Mariners. So what the hell is happening? The coaching staff has to have something to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:57 am 
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This, from the Tribune, just furthers my point:
"Before the season, you might recall, Franklin was among the prospects Zduriencik reportedly offered the Diamondbacks during trade talks for outfielder Justin Upton."

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Some of the moves Wedge makes are baffling. He goes with the "hot bat" a lot over the hitting ability vs left handers, for example. He pulls pitchers when he has no one in the bullpen and acts shocked when they are blown out yet again.

Franklin in an Upton trade I would have been good with.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Upton just woulda been testroyed in Safeco, like all the rest of them I am afraid for Franklin.

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Jack Z is by no means perfect, and has made some head-scratchers in his time, but 'can't-miss' prospects busting is not really a GM's fault. Your job is to acquire as much talent as possible in a way that puts your team in a position to succeed. What makes one prospect pan out and another fail? It's arguably unlikely to have much to do with the GM (I'm sure there are arguments to be made to the contrary, but bear with me).

Players like Ackley, Montero, and Smoak were considered LEAGUE-WIDE to be the best in baseball. People were AWED that we were able to somehow get both Montero and Smoak into our farm system, and Z was worthy of the accolades. They've struggled, and sure, that obviously is going to reflect negatively on Z, but I would argue that it shouldn't. If Bedard had gone on to win 5 Cy Youngs with the Mariners and Adam Jones et al had flamed out, it still would have been a bad trade. Sometimes bad moves work out, and sometimes good moves don't, but hopefully you hire someone who consistently makes good decisions that give you better odds of success.

I think of it like poker - you can go all in when you draw a 2/7 off-suit and win, but it doesn't make you a genius. It means you made a bad decision and got lucky. You can go all-in with pocket aces and lose. It doesn't mean you're dumb. It means you made a good decision and got unlikely. (I know there's a lot more to poker than this, but the metaphor holds).

Again, Z isn't perfect. He's done some things I really disagree with. But whereas Bavasi was making bad decisions which turned out bad, Z is making (generally) good decisions which aren't working out. The latter process is more likely to eventually yield results than the former.

I'm not saying Z should definitely keep his job, but I don't think he should definitely be fired. I would say the same for Wedge (though I don't like his managing style for a variety of reasons, I think he has little to do with the team's struggles). Discussions about ownership/Lincoln/Armstrong have been had and I won't rehash those.

As for the coaching staff and how they impact the development of prospects, it's really hard to say. The Mariners have sacrificed SO MANY hitting coaches and managers as scapegoats in this decade of suck that I find it hard to believe they have much to do with it. But it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:25 am 
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Was Jack Z the one who traded Doug Fister for Charlie Furbush? If so, just another bad decision. Furbush is awful.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:13 am 
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hawkfan68 wrote:
Was Jack Z the one who traded Doug Fister for Charlie Furbush? If so, just another bad decision. Furbush is awful.

Don't forget we got Casper wells out of the trade too and he is gone now also.

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:10 am 
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jkitsune wrote:
Jack Z is by no means perfect, and has made some head-scratchers in his time, but 'can't-miss' prospects busting is not really a GM's fault. Your job is to acquire as much talent as possible in a way that puts your team in a position to succeed. What makes one prospect pan out and another fail? It's arguably unlikely to have much to do with the GM (I'm sure there are arguments to be made to the contrary, but bear with me).

Players like Ackley, Montero, and Smoak were considered LEAGUE-WIDE to be the best in baseball. People were AWED that we were able to somehow get both Montero and Smoak into our farm system, and Z was worthy of the accolades. They've struggled, and sure, that obviously is going to reflect negatively on Z, but I would argue that it shouldn't. If Bedard had gone on to win 5 Cy Youngs with the Mariners and Adam Jones et al had flamed out, it still would have been a bad trade. Sometimes bad moves work out, and sometimes good moves don't, but hopefully you hire someone who consistently makes good decisions that give you better odds of success.

I think of it like poker - you can go all in when you draw a 2/7 off-suit and win, but it doesn't make you a genius. It means you made a bad decision and got lucky. You can go all-in with pocket aces and lose. It doesn't mean you're dumb. It means you made a good decision and got unlikely. (I know there's a lot more to poker than this, but the metaphor holds).

Again, Z isn't perfect. He's done some things I really disagree with. But whereas Bavasi was making bad decisions which turned out bad, Z is making (generally) good decisions which aren't working out. The latter process is more likely to eventually yield results than the former.

I'm not saying Z should definitely keep his job, but I don't think he should definitely be fired. I would say the same for Wedge (though I don't like his managing style for a variety of reasons, I think he has little to do with the team's struggles). Discussions about ownership/Lincoln/Armstrong have been had and I won't rehash those.

As for the coaching staff and how they impact the development of prospects, it's really hard to say. The Mariners have sacrificed SO MANY hitting coaches and managers as scapegoats in this decade of suck that I find it hard to believe they have much to do with it. But it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

I hear you--just like the Arron Curry pick. Making the concensus pick--unless it's Andy Luck--just shows you're operating with the herd. Thinking outside the box takes guts, and it's what seperates the great GMs. What players do you think we'd have on this team if John Schnieder was the GM?

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:20 am 
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You're done sending Smoak down. He either succeeds or fails here in the MLB.

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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:33 am 
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hawkfan68 wrote:
Hawkfan77 wrote:
hawkfan68 wrote:
Only Montero? Half the team should be in Triple AAA. You could probably include Smoak and Ackley with Montero. For pitchers Maurer should be sent down. Harang should be waived. Don't understand why he's still on the team.

Why should Smoak be sent down?


Because he has done jack squat since becoming a Mariner. He doesn't get hits on a consistent basis. He can't hit for a good avg nor does he provided needed power. He's basically a Brendan Ryan at first base.


thats just not true... but he hasnt lived up to the hype of a top prospect... unfortunately. Sadly, his .240 ba and above .350 ops is a vast improvement to last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:34 am 
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Happypuppy wrote:
Some of the moves Wedge makes are baffling. He goes with the "hot bat" a lot over the hitting ability vs left handers, for example. He pulls pitchers when he has no one in the bullpen and acts shocked when they are blown out yet again.

Franklin in an Upton trade I would have been good with.



Wedge's time is near an end

thought he was a poor hire to begin with


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 Post subject: Re: Montero to AAA
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 am 
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Uncle Si wrote:
hawkfan68 wrote:
Hawkfan77 wrote:
Why should Smoak be sent down?


Because he has done jack squat since becoming a Mariner. He doesn't get hits on a consistent basis. He can't hit for a good avg nor does he provided needed power. He's basically a Brendan Ryan at first base.


thats just not true... but he hasnt lived up to the hype of a top prospect... unfortunately. Sadly, his .240 ba and above .350 ops is a vast improvement to last year.

"By the middle of this week, Mariners' first baseman Justin Smoak was on pace to finish this season with 558 plate appearances and 25 RBI. No first baseman in the history of the game -- well, unless you count Joe Agler of the 1914 Buffalo Buffeds from the Federal League -- has had 550 plate appearances with as few as 25 RBI in a season."

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