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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Throwdown wrote:
I think the best places to expand would be either Kansas City or Vancouver, both as the other expansion team with Seattle's. Both already have state of the art facilities

Vancouvers Rogers Arena is DOPE inside
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Kansas City's Sprint Center
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Damn, Sprint center looks cool. Looks like a big glass salad bowl or something. Seems like way too cool of a building to only house Arena Football (too bad they're SOL to get a real sport in there).

And yeah, the first one is hella cool too. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Sorry Seattle fans but I really don't want the NBA to expand. There's already not enough talent to go around and too many crappy teams. If it were up to me they'd shut down 3 or 4 teams.

Go steal Milwaukie or Atlanta or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:53 pm 
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From 1983 (adding the Mavs) to 2004 (adding the Bobcats) the NBA operated with an odd number of teams. So that argument against is weak.

The "have to wait for the new TV deal" argument is also weak. Right now, the existing deal pays $900M a year. When the existing 30 Owners each get their cut, that works out to $30M per team. Expand to 31 and that drops to $29M per team. Chris Hansen has already shown that he'll drop $30 like it's pocket change. The increased valuation of teams & amount of $ HBN would pay in for an expansion fee would more than offset any $$ the owners would lose under the existing TV deal and the future deal. Plus, adding the Seattle market in advance to renegotiation of the TV deal is in the NBA's best interests, since it increases the asking price.

(BTW - The report that Hansen has supposedly told the NBA they could keep the $30M deposit he made as part of the Kings offer and that $30M happens to be the same amount of TV revenue in question is the one little thing that makes me hope Expansion talks are serious right now ... but maybe I'm just reading too much into things)

The "talent dilution" argument is weak. There are currently 450 roster spots in the NBA. Adding a team increases that to 465. Do you seriously believe there's a big difference between the 450th player vs. the 465th? .. "But there's not enough Star players to go around!!" How many "Stars" are in the NBA at any given time? 15? 20? By that logic, there's been too many teams since the ABA merger. Bottom line - teams with good GM's and good coaches will be able to assemble winning teams. Team with good markets & good products will be successful, teams that suck or are in bad markets will loose money. Doesn't make any difference if there are 28, 29, 30, 31, or 32 teams in the League, that will be true regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:38 pm 
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If your team plays one on one all season yes, they may suffer since as Ved says elite level players are rare and there are few. If your team plays team Basketball and defense with a group of above but not elite players you have a better chance for long term success. Markets with deep pockets and that are willing to pay the luxery tax will flourish. Bold GM's that will go after a key player to build around also will. Lakers have been doing that almost their whole existence with Chamberlin, Jabbar, Shaq, Divac etc and then making trades to get high picks for the wing or back court. They will go without a good draft for a few years since they have built a young and dominant team for the court for years in many instances.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:11 pm 
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m0ng0 wrote:
Not sure the talent pool can support 2 more teams but best of luck !

The talent pool is there, but there's only a limited number of GREAT players. And you got to have two of those bastards to win a championship. How otherwise you going through Miami? So in two years, we'll get Durant, and who else?

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:13 pm 
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CALIHAWK1 wrote:
The issue with expansion is I would imagine they would want two teams. With markets like Charolotte and Milwaukee I don't see the possibilty of two teams.

The NBA can run with one expansion team. They'd prefer two, but it could fly for a while until the next market emerges.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:15 pm 
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-The Glove- wrote:
Throwdown wrote:
Pretty much what I've been saying the last 2 days.

Thank you for putting all this out here though so people can read it, instead of looking at me like i'm some insane optimistic person.

Ay I'm with you Throwdown. On the way home from work as I was listening to Sterns PC and I couldn't help but smile towards the middle and end of it. I know there's some kind of expansion talks going on right now. Based off of everything Stern, Silver and now Montemayor have been saying. And even Hansen's message had some indications that something was going to happen sooner than later.

Stay positive, SuperSonics fans!

Haven't you figured out everything coming out of Stern's mouth is rancid baby diarhea? Silver's comments were, however, encouraging.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Milwaukee has supported the Bucks for generations, yes getting a Arena is difficult, we in Seattle should know better then anyone, but they managed to support getting the Packers stadium built, I would think somehow they get something done there as well. I just don't see the NBA unless all else and efforts are completly abandoned moving the Bucks. It would be just about like the Sonics 2.0 all over again, we seen in Sacramento how adament they are about relocation presently. Charlotte I'm not as sure about since I don't know about the lease and Arena condition there. They don't have a history as long as the Bucks, they really have never been that much of a contender, not sure about how well they are supported.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Ya know, it strikes me that announcing an NBA expansion team in Las Vegas shortly after strong-arming the Maloofs out of the NBA would be a typical dick move for Stern.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Well looking at the fall out of Wednesday.

1 Stern speaks of possible Expansion in the future after TV deal done

2 Silver speaks of wanting to come back to Seattle

3 Agreement with Maloofs to sell Kings and no Hansen involvement whatsoever

4 Hansen doesn't take offer to get 30 million back from NBA

5 No Lawsuit by Hansen group pending, we know their is plenty of cause to push it but it's not happening.

6 Hansen's optimistic post about still working and how sweet it will be when it happens

7 Early TV agreement negotiations, also NBA has option to end present contract from what I read opening door for new deal to be done immediatly

8 Hansen group in continued talks and negotiations with NBA

9 No negative comments or news of opinion from anyone in the Hansen camp about the decision, playing nice and no returning shots even with Sterns OKC lead in during team staying in Sacramento announcement when just about everyone else was miffed.

All this leads me to beleive we have something going on that can't or won't be announced to leverage either a TV deal, another locations Arena deal or expansion request all the while having done a Bennett Brokerage deal with the NBA for the Sonics returning here.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:32 pm 
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I'm buying what you're selling scanner. The way the sale went right through from the Maloofs to the new Sac ownership group with no opposition from HBN points, in a logical world, to some kind of promise down the road of a team here. I think when all is said and done, we'll all be happier with the eventual solution than we would have been had we actually gotten the lame-ass Kings. It will be OUR team only, and not referred to as "The Former Kings"... which would have irked me a bit. I'm well aware of the term "Blessing in disguise" from my personal life, and I think we'll be happier when this thing is all over and done with. Then we can build from scratch, and it will be interesting as hell to watch! Oh, and another thing I heard on the radio today.... "Seattle is the only city in the top twenty TV markets to NOT have an NBA team". So, I'm pretty sure we're good. Just some more patience required... Hard, I know, but I'm extremely optimistic over our NBA, and NHL future...

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:22 pm 
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chris98251 wrote:
Well looking at the fall out of Wednesday.

1 Stern speaks of possible Expansion in the future after TV deal done

2 Silver speaks of wanting to come back to Seattle

3 Agreement with Maloofs to sell Kings and no Hansen involvement whatsoever

4 Hansen doesn't take offer to get 30 million back from NBA

5 No Lawsuit by Hansen group pending, we know their is plenty of cause to push it but it's not happening.

6 Hansen's optimistic post about still working and how sweet it will be when it happens

7 Early TV agreement negotiations, also NBA has option to end present contract from what I read opening door for new deal to be done immediatly

8 Hansen group in continued talks and negotiations with NBA

9 No negative comments or news of opinion from anyone in the Hansen camp about the decision, playing nice and no returning shots even with Sterns OKC lead in during team staying in Sacramento announcement when just about everyone else was miffed.

All this leads me to beleive we have something going on that can't or won't be announced to leverage either a TV deal, another locations Arena deal or expansion request all the while having done a Bennett Brokerage deal with the NBA for the Sonics returning here.


Yeah, now that I'm done being pissed and have calmed down, this is stuff that I started thinking about today. And, quite frankly an expansion team was all I wanted. Maybe it doesn't happen, but there are some things that point to it. So, here's hoping.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:24 pm 
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SeatownJay wrote:
Ya know, it strikes me that announcing an NBA expansion team in Las Vegas shortly after strong-arming the Maloofs out of the NBA would be a typical dick move for Stern.


As much as this entire fiasco has frustrated me, that would honestly make me laugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:47 pm 
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SeatownJay wrote:
Ya know, it strikes me that announcing an NBA expansion team in Las Vegas shortly after strong-arming the Maloofs out of the NBA would be a typical dick move for Stern.


Considering they would look to expand two teams to keep the conferences even numbered, Las Vegas/Seattle would be cool with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Las Vegas will never get a team (as cool as that would be) unless all of the sports books pull all NBA action off their boards, and that ain't happenin'!

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:47 am 
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vedthree wrote:
From 1983 (adding the Mavs) to 2004 (adding the Bobcats) the NBA operated with an odd number of teams. So that argument against is weak.

The "have to wait for the new TV deal" argument is also weak. Right now, the existing deal pays $900M a year. When the existing 30 Owners each get their cut, that works out to $30M per team. Expand to 31 and that drops to $29M per team. Chris Hansen has already shown that he'll drop $30 like it's pocket change. The increased valuation of teams & amount of $ HBN would pay in for an expansion fee would more than offset any $$ the owners would lose under the existing TV deal and the future deal. Plus, adding the Seattle market in advance to renegotiation of the TV deal is in the NBA's best interests, since it increases the asking price.

(BTW - The report that Hansen has supposedly told the NBA they could keep the $30M deposit he made as part of the Kings offer and that $30M happens to be the same amount of TV revenue in question is the one little thing that makes me hope Expansion talks are serious right now ... but maybe I'm just reading too much into things)

The "talent dilution" argument is weak. There are currently 450 roster spots in the NBA. Adding a team increases that to 465. Do you seriously believe there's a big difference between the 450th player vs. the 465th? .. "But there's not enough Star players to go around!!" How many "Stars" are in the NBA at any given time? 15? 20? By that logic, there's been too many teams since the ABA merger. Bottom line - teams with good GM's and good coaches will be able to assemble winning teams. Team with good markets & good products will be successful, teams that suck or are in bad markets will loose money. Doesn't make any difference if there are 28, 29, 30, 31, or 32 teams in the League, that will be true regardless.


Fantastic points all there Ved. I basically agree with everything you said. I hadn't realized the part about the NBA having had an odd number of teams for that 20 year span ... but you are absolutely correct. So, expansion COULD mean just Seattle in theory.

Regarding the NBA's TV contract being an impediment to expansion at the moment, I know it's basically a bogus argument ... and you know know it's a bogus argument ... but that is exactly the point that Stern and the NBA are contending (Stern reiterated that in the press conference). Steve Kyler (who threw out that Tweet about Stern having influenced the owners' vote) said yesterday in an interview on KJR-950am that the NBA was concerned about setting a precedent in this case. That is, they didn't like the idea of having a team ripped out of its existing city (even if there is a superior offer) if that city has done everything that the board has asked that city to do. If that happened, then what about Milwaukee, what about Charlotte, and so on? If that's the case (and I honestly am starting to believe that it is) then I can respect that -- the idea of looking at the whole picture and what's good for the NBA as a whole (not just for 1 team or 1 city).

As crazy as it sounds (and I can't believe I'm saying this because I'm certainly no David Stern fan), I believe that there is a piece of David Stern that actually feels bad about what happened with Seattle in 2008. Erik Erikson (a disciple of Freud's) developed his own theories about personality and really talked a lot about people making critical decisions about life at key stages in life. In Stern's case, Erikson would say that he's at the "Ego Integrity vs. Despair" part of his life. This is the stage of life where people (say 65 or older, but that's a real rough timeline) start to look back on their life and really start to ask questions like, "What's my legacy going to be? How have I impacted the world? What am I leaving behind? How are people going to remember me?" People either look back on their life with a sense of real satisfaction or with a real sense of regret over some of their missteps, their missed opportunities, etc. It's that idea of legacy that I believe could have impacted things in terms of this decision with the Kings. I think it's quite possible that Stern looks at what happened with Seattle as a real failure -- a black mark on his resume as commissioner ... and maybe even regrets some things he did that helped make that failure to keep the Sonics in Seattle possible (there's sure a lot of blame to go around). Anyway, I think it's possible he looked at this situation and said to himself he didn't want the same exact thing to happen in Sacramento. Besides looking at what he perceived as being in the best overall interests of the NBA as a whole ... I think it's possible this could also have gone in to his thinking. And this is part of why (I believe) expansion could honestly be on the table in this case -- a way to make right a wrong that was done to the city of Seattle. Am I going to be remembered as a commissioner who allowed a team with a 41 year history to be torn out of its city ... or as the white knight who helped make its return possible?

For all those reasons and more, I'm honestly buying what Tim Montemayor is selling in saying that expansion for Seattle is on the horizon. As Chris98251 outlined in his points, it sure makes a lot of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Stern is way up in the Big/Soft/Bottom/Anal--Narcisist--Psychotic corner of the spectrum.

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 Post subject: Re: Is an NBA Expansion Team on the horizon for Seattle?
 Post Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:24 am 
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The Seattle Times put out an interesting article regarding expansion yesterday. Here are a few choice nuggets from it ...

First of all, Bob Condotta confirmed Tim Montemayor's earlier report about the league looking to renegotiate its TV Deal early with a possible eye on adding Seattle as an expansion team ...

Quote:
“I think there was a generalized talk that it would be good in the future just to consider that issue, but awaiting the next television renegotiation, which is virtually upon us,” Stern said. “Especially in terms of the year or so, or what have you, that it was best to await that event.”

The TV contracts to which Stern referred are the national deals the league has with ESPN/ABC and TNT. Those expire at the end of the 2015-16 season.

However, it was reported recently the NBA has begun informal negotiations on its next contracts.

The hope in Seattle would be that as the NBA has those discussions, it will ask the networks to consider what the impact would be of adding a team, potentially paving the way for the league to consider expansion before the new contracts take effect.


And this little goodie ...

Quote:
“My sense is Seattle made such an impressive showing that the NBA — which has resisted expansion for years — will view expansion more favorably,” said Michael McCann, a sports-law expert and an on-air legal analyst for NBA-TV. “I believe the league will study expansion over the next year.”


McCann goes on to note that the reason he believes the NBA didn't outright award Seattle an expansion franchise is that the NBA and Stern tend to value process and to stick to precedent. That is, when expansion has happened in the past, it has been open to any city to make its case why they should receive an NBA team. So, if expansion had happened, other cities like Kansas City, Vancouver, B.C., St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Las Vegas would have been right there in the mix. Hansen and his group (in essence) would have had to make their pitch all over again. Seattle would be the clear front runner however, based upon the strength of the Hansen/Ballmer/Nordstrom group, the fact that Seattle and Hansen already have an agreement for an NBA arena already in place, the environmental impact studies are already well under way, etc.

Source: Seattle’s NBA hopes still high as league warms to expansion - Seattle Times -- 5/18/13

Encouraging news for sure.


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