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 Post subject: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:07 am 
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Kirk Cousins for the Rams #1 pick!

I kid, but that would be funny to me.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:51 am 
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Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:01 am 
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Axx wrote:
Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


I doubt he'd go for a high 1st, but you're telling me he's not worth a better deal than Alex Smith? He's only in his 2nd season and still on a rookie deal and has showed some promise. In a limited sample size, he's completing 62% of his passes for 8.0+ YPA with 7/7 TD/INT. Not Russell Wilson numbers, but certainly not bad for a young QB who hasn't been in the league for very long.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:10 am 
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The Skins should listen to offers this offseason, esp since Snyder is not gonna let RG3 go. It wouldn't be surprising to see a QB needy team throw a 2nd or 3rd at them for him and they should jump all over that if RG3 is their future.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:26 am 
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I think at worst they get a 3rd rounder for him, maybe a 2nd.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:32 am 
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EverydayImRusselin wrote:
I doubt he'd go for a high 1st, but you're telling me he's not worth a better deal than Alex Smith?

Not Russell Wilson numbers, but certainly not bad for a young QB who hasn't been in the league for very long.


Is there anybody who doesn't think the Alex Smith trade was worth it for the Chiefs at this point?

FWIW, we'd be hard pressed to find a QB more statistically similar to Russell Wilson than Alex Smith this year. Smith has peaked and Wilson is a better player, but statistically, really shockingly similar:

Smith has 3544 yards passing/rushing, 25 TDs and 8 turnovers (ints and fumbles)
Wilson has 3585 yards passing/rushing, 26 TDs and 10 turnovers (ints and fumbles)

Obviously not saying that anyone in their right mind would prefer having Smith over Wilson, but the stats are basically the same. After the Matt Flynn implosion, the Cassell disaster and others, I think people are rightly a little suspicious of paying a lot for backups who have never been sustainted starters before.

As for Cousins, the Redskins spent a 4th on him and developed him for two years. I think they'd want at least a second, although the smart play IMO is definitely to keep him. With RGIII's injury and the way he gets banged around having a QB that won't cause your season to be over if your starter goes out is definitely worth more than a second round pick, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:00 am 
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Popeyejones wrote:
EverydayImRusselin wrote:
I doubt he'd go for a high 1st, but you're telling me he's not worth a better deal than Alex Smith?

Not Russell Wilson numbers, but certainly not bad for a young QB who hasn't been in the league for very long.


Is there anybody who doesn't think the Alex Smith trade was worth it for the Chiefs at this point?

FWIW, we'd be hard pressed to find a QB more statistically similar to Russell Wilson than Alex Smith this year. Smith has peaked and Wilson is a better player, but statistically, really shockingly similar:

Smith has 3544 yards passing/rushing, 25 TDs and 8 turnovers (ints and fumbles)
Wilson has 3585 yards passing/rushing, 26 TDs and 10 turnovers (ints and fumbles)

Obviously not saying that anyone in their right mind would prefer having Smith over Wilson, but the stats are basically the same. After the Matt Flynn implosion, the Cassell disaster and others, I think people are rightly a little suspicious of paying a lot for backups who have never been sustainted starters before.

As for Cousins, the Redskins spent a 4th on him and developed him for two years. I think they'd want at least a second, although the smart play IMO is definitely to keep him. With RGIII's injury and the way he gets banged around having a QB that won't cause your season to be over if your starter goes out is definitely worth more than a second round pick, IMO.


I think the Smith trade has worked out wonderfully for KC. But at the time of the deal, it wasn't exactly a slam dunk. I still think someone will pay a lot for Cousins. There are still a few QB needy teams out there after all.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:47 am 
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^^^ Yeah, agreed it definitely wasn't a slam dunk at the time. TBH, if Reid didn't have a long gestating hard on for Alex Smith, I think the 9ers gets SIGNIFICANTLY less value for him. Depending on what Cousins does these next two weeks I think he'll have some value, but it has been awhile since a backup went somewhere else and played well, which unfairly colors things a bit. Was the last one Matt Schaub? I'm assuming I'm forgetting someone (or more than one...)


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Popeyejones wrote:
EverydayImRusselin wrote:
I doubt he'd go for a high 1st, but you're telling me he's not worth a better deal than Alex Smith?

Not Russell Wilson numbers, but certainly not bad for a young QB who hasn't been in the league for very long.


Is there anybody who doesn't think the Alex Smith trade was worth it for the Chiefs at this point?

FWIW, we'd be hard pressed to find a QB more statistically similar to Russell Wilson than Alex Smith this year. Smith has peaked and Wilson is a better player, but statistically, really shockingly similar:

Smith has 3544 yards passing/rushing, 25 TDs and 8 turnovers (ints and fumbles)
Wilson has 3585 yards passing/rushing, 26 TDs and 10 turnovers (ints and fumbles)

Obviously not saying that anyone in their right mind would prefer having Smith over Wilson, but the stats are basically the same. After the Matt Flynn implosion, the Cassell disaster and others, I think people are rightly a little suspicious of paying a lot for backups who have never been sustainted starters before.

As for Cousins, the Redskins spent a 4th on him and developed him for two years. I think they'd want at least a second, although the smart play IMO is definitely to keep him. With RGIII's injury and the way he gets banged around having a QB that won't cause your season to be over if your starter goes out is definitely worth more than a second round pick, IMO.




I disagree, we'd be hard pressed to find a QB more statistically similar to Colin Kaepernick than Alex Smith this year. Smith has peaked and Kaepernick isn't the better player, but statistically, really shockingly similar:

Smith has 3544 yards passing/rushing, 25 TDs and 8 turnovers (ints and fumbles) 60.8% PCT 6.58 YPC 11 WINS
Kaepernick has 3,136 yards passing/rushing, 21 TDs and 9 turnovers (ints and fumbles) 57.9% PCT 7.45 YPC 10 WINS



Russel separates himself because these are key stats you left out that really really matter.

Russel 8.6 YPC 64.7% PCT 12 WINS
Smith 6.58 YPC 60.8% PCT 11 WINS
Kaepernick 7.45 YPC 57.9% PCT 10 WINS

Russel flat out just does more with each opportunity then these two QBs.

You only get 100 throws what QB would you take?

Who would you take second?


Last edited by Brahn on Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:56 pm 
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The Browns have the Colts' first round pick this year, which will be a low one as Indy is already in the playoffs. Since they have two first rounders I could see them trading the Colts' pick to Washington if Cousins finishes strong.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:37 pm 
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They should keep cousins and trade RG Knee


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Would you send T-Jack to Washington ... for Kirk Cousins?

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:51 pm 
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joeseahawks wrote:
Would you send T-Jack to Washington ... for Kirk Cousins?


I'd keep TJack if it's a straight trade. More proven and consistent.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Brahn wrote:
You only get 100 throws what QB would you take?


?????

In the post you quote I already said twice that despite their statistical similarity Wilson is obviously a much better player than Smith. If you need it a third time: Wilson, obviously. :?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Popeyejones wrote:
Brahn wrote:
You only get 100 throws what QB would you take?


?????

In the post you quote I already said twice that despite their statistical similarity Wilson is obviously a much better player than Smith. If you need it a third time: Wilson, obviously. :?



And I disagreed with you. The statistical similarities in the key stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion make Wilson nowhere close to Smith statistically. Maybe we just consider different stats more important. You chose to focus on Passing Yards and TD/Turn Overs, and I choose to look at stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion ( A QB who is high in both stats makes the most of their opportunities). I then stated that Kaepernick would be closer to "Smith" than Wilson. And then asked between the THREE who would you chose first, and you responded only mentioning Smith and Wilson why not Kaep?

If you wanna address my post why not all of it and not just cherry pick?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:59 pm 
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joeseahawks wrote:
Would you send T-Jack to Washington ... for Kirk Cousins?

In a heartbeat, then turn around and trade Cousins for a 2nd or a 3rd.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Brahn wrote:
Popeyejones wrote:
Brahn wrote:
You only get 100 throws what QB would you take?


?????

In the post you quote I already said twice that despite their statistical similarity Wilson is obviously a much better player than Smith. If you need it a third time: Wilson, obviously. :?



And I disagreed with you. The statistical similarities in the key stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion make Wilson nowhere close to Smith statistically. Maybe we just consider different stats more important. You chose to focus on Passing Yards and TD/Turn Overs, and I choose to look at stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion ( A QB who is high in both stats makes the most of their opportunities). I then stated that Kaepernick would be closer to "Smith" than Wilson. And then asked between the THREE who would you chose first, and you responded only mentioning Smith and Wilson why not Kaep?

If you wanna address my post why not all of it and not just cherry pick?


1. I focused on both passing and rushing yards to Give Wilson the bump he deserves.

2A. I don't disagree about completion % or yards per completion. I mentioned total yards, TDs, and turnovers because those are the things people tend to talk about when they talk about statistical performance. Things like completion percentage, yards per attempt, and team wins matter for sure, but they are secondary types of stats that people tend to bring up when the stats most commonly used don't tell the story they want to hear. For instance:

For Kaep's starts last year 9ers fans loved to talk about his YPC (because it was very high) to counteract critiques about his lower (in rank) passing yards and completion % totals. It was their favorite homer stat. This was very different than the first first half when 9ers fans loved to talk about Smith's completion % and YPA to counteract people talking about his low passing yards, YPC, and TD totals. Smith's YPA (not YPC) was of course high because he completed a higher percentage of his passes than those he was being compared to, but like completion percentage, it was a homer stat. On the topic of YPC and YPA:

2B. You did not cite "yards per completion", you cited "yards per attempt", which obviously goes up by having a higher completion percentage. If you looked at YPC as you claimed, it would erase over 50% of the variation you're trying to cite between these three quarterbacks. In most cases much of saying someone has a high YPA is simply saying they have a high completion %, which is why people look to YPC. I'm assuming this was just a simple mistake, so no biggie.

3. You also introduce wins as a "more important" stat. Basically, if I'm talking about a quarterback's statistical performance and cite their yards, touchdowns, and turnovers and someone comes in and says the important way to judge them is that one of their teams has 12 wins, another has 11, and a third has 10, I am fairly certain that person is trying to sell me something.

I'm fine with us disagreeing. Truly. For how much better of a QB Wilson is than Smith (in my opinion) statistically they are surprising similar so far this year. We agree that is limited to the primary statistical categories that people tend to talk about when they talk about these things, and doesn't include completion percentage or team wins.

On the year, in total, Wilson has 41 more yards, 1 more touchdown, and 2 more turnovers than Smith, and he also completes 3.9% more of his passes and his team has one more win. That's absolutely true, we just interpret it differently. I think overall that's really similar. You don't.


Last edited by Popeyejones on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:29 pm 
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This guy called in last week to one of the ESPN shows and said something that I hadn't heard anywhere.

It was discussed in lots of places that Shannahan fits perfectly within the Houton system

It was discussed in lots of places that Snyder wants to shed the $7million

BUT Houston needs a qb. Shannahan doesn't want to start with another young qb. So put in Cousins and establish a deal where he and Cousins go to Houston for a trade.....

Everyone knows Snyder wants a new coach so this would probably be real cheap by making it a combo deal

I loved the conspiracy theory and this one actually makes sense


Last edited by mikeak on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:31 pm 
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^^^^^ LOL. I like that. Makes too much sense for it to ever happen, but I really like it.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:41 pm 
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Popeyejones wrote:
^^^^^ LOL. I like that. Makes too much sense for it to ever happen, but I really like it.


I know right. It was on the Coleman show and you could tell that as the caller started talking Coleman (and me) was like hmmm yeah we heard this before. Then as soon as he mentioned the package deal as why Cousins was playing it was just like cha-ching. If just fits so perfectly


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Axx wrote:
Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


What criteria is it that you're using in deciding "Kirk is not that good"? Cousins is a good QB and has the potential to be a damn good QB. The Skins are fools and unpredictable, but even they wouldn't be stupid enough to trade Cousins for less than a 2.


Last edited by HawkWow on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Axx wrote:
Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


He is under contract for two more years

Or trade him for a 3rd - 4th round and then spend that pick on a new qb as you still need a backup

I say keep him or do the Houston deal


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:02 pm 
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mikeak wrote:
Axx wrote:
Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


He is under contract for two more years

Or trade him for a 3rd - 4th round and then spend that pick on a new qb as you still need a backup

I say keep him or do the Houston deal


You guys are sadly undervaluing the worth of QBs in this league. And with all respect, why would the Skins, even for a second, consider off loading Cousins, for a 3rd or 4th, then use that pick to gamble on an unproven back up to replace him?

Keeping in mind, on a team that starts Griffin, a back up will be doing a hell of a lot of backing up. Additionally, it seems despite the controversy (and unless something has happened recently that I am unaware of) Cousins and Griffin appear to have a very solid relationship. I just don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Popeyejones wrote:
Brahn wrote:
Popeyejones wrote:
Brahn wrote:
You only get 100 throws what QB would you take?


?????

In the post you quote I already said twice that despite their statistical similarity Wilson is obviously a much better player than Smith. If you need it a third time: Wilson, obviously. :?



And I disagreed with you. The statistical similarities in the key stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion make Wilson nowhere close to Smith statistically. Maybe we just consider different stats more important. You chose to focus on Passing Yards and TD/Turn Overs, and I choose to look at stats like Completion Percentage and Yards Per Completion ( A QB who is high in both stats makes the most of their opportunities). I then stated that Kaepernick would be closer to "Smith" than Wilson. And then asked between the THREE who would you chose first, and you responded only mentioning Smith and Wilson why not Kaep?

If you wanna address my post why not all of it and not just cherry pick?


1. I focused on both passing and rushing yards to Give Wilson the bump he deserves.

2A. I don't disagree about completion % or yards per completion. I mentioned total yards, TDs, and turnovers because those are the things people tend to talk about when they talk about statistical performance. Things like completion percentage, yards per attempt, and team wins matter for sure, but they are secondary types of stats that people tend to bring up when the stats most commonly used don't tell the story they want to hear. For instance:

For Kaep's starts last year 9ers fans loved to talk about his YPC (because it was very high) to counteract critiques about his lower (in rank) passing yards and completion % totals. It was their favorite homer stat. This was very different than the first first half when 9ers fans loved to talk about Smith's completion % and YPA to counteract people talking about his low passing yards, YPC, and TD totals. Smith's YPA (not YPC) was of course high because he completed a higher percentage of his passes than those he was being compared to, but like completion percentage, it was a homer stat. On the topic of YPC and YPA:

2B. You did not cite "yards per completion", you cited "yards per attempt", which obviously goes up by having a higher completion percentage. If you looked at YPC as you claimed, it would erase over 50% of the variation you're trying to cite between these three quarterbacks. In most cases much of saying someone has a high YPA is simply saying they have a high completion %, which is why people look to YPC. I'm assuming this was just a simple mistake, so no biggie.

3. You also introduce wins as a "more important" stat. Basically, if I'm talking about a quarterback's statistical performance and cite their yards, touchdowns, and turnovers and someone comes in and says the important way to judge them is that one of their teams has 12 wins, another has 11, and a third has 10, I am fairly certain that person is trying to sell me something.

I'm fine with us disagreeing. Truly. For how much better of a QB Wilson is than Smith (in my opinion) statistically they are surprising similar so far this year. We agree that is limited to the primary statistical categories that people tend to talk about when they talk about these things, and doesn't include completion percentage or team wins.

On the year, in total, Wilson has 41 more yards, 1 more touchdown, and 2 more turnovers than Smith, and he also completes 3.9% more of his passes and his team has one more win. That's absolutely true, we just interpret it differently. I think overall that's really similar. You don't.


I can agree on some of this and I stand corrected it is YPA not YPC. With that aside you still omitted YPA, @ 2.04 YPA and 123 more attempts. Between Russel and Smith. That difference makes them way different QBs. One has Deep ball ability one does not. One can do more with less touches. I agree they are really similar when stacked 1v1, add in the other QBs in the league and they start to be less similar to each other and more similar to other QBs.

3.9% Completion seems small but when you add in the fact there are 11 QBs between the two the stat seems to be far a greater gap then you give it credit. 2.04 YPA puts 26 QBs between the 2 QBs(Only Rodgers and Foles are higher and neither has played the fulls season). 2 more TOs you say? Half the league is within 2 Total TO's (Sarcasm, because it is many QBs). I will concede the fact they are 1 TD apart as their totals still put them in the top 10 for TDs at the QB position, not really a negative stat.

Hard for me to agree that the Kid born in Seattle is equal or similar to the QB in Seattle.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:13 pm 
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HawkWow wrote:
mikeak wrote:
Axx wrote:
Kirk is not that good.
He is worth a 4th imo. He had a average game against the falcons.

But yeah, kirk is gone when his contract is up


He is under contract for two more years

Or trade him for a 3rd - 4th round and then spend that pick on a new qb as you still need a backup

I say keep him or do the Houston deal


You guys are sadly undervaluing the worth of QBs in this league. And with all respect, why would the Skins, even for a second, consider off loading Cousins, for a 3rd or 4th, then use that pick to gamble on an unproven back up to replace him?

Keeping in mind, on a team that starts Griffin, a back up will be doing a hell of a lot of backing up. Additionally, it seems despite the controversy (and unless something has happened recently that I am unaware of) Cousins and Griffin appear to have a very solid relationship. I just don't get it.


You see that I said keep him? Trading him for a low pick and then spend that on an unknown makes no sense. I agree


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Popeyejones wrote:
EverydayImRusselin wrote:
I doubt he'd go for a high 1st, but you're telling me he's not worth a better deal than Alex Smith?

Not Russell Wilson numbers, but certainly not bad for a young QB who hasn't been in the league for very long.


Is there anybody who doesn't think the Alex Smith trade was worth it for the Chiefs at this point?

FWIW, we'd be hard pressed to find a QB more statistically similar to Russell Wilson than Alex Smith this year. Smith has peaked and Wilson is a better player, but statistically, really shockingly similar:

Smith has 3544 yards passing/rushing, 25 TDs and 8 turnovers (ints and fumbles)
Wilson has 3585 yards passing/rushing, 26 TDs and 10 turnovers (ints and fumbles)

Obviously not saying that anyone in their right mind would prefer having Smith over Wilson, but the stats are basically the same. After the Matt Flynn implosion, the Cassell disaster and others, I think people are rightly a little suspicious of paying a lot for backups who have never been sustainted starters before.

As for Cousins, the Redskins spent a 4th on him and developed him for two years. I think they'd want at least a second, although the smart play IMO is definitely to keep him. With RGIII's injury and the way he gets banged around having a QB that won't cause your season to be over if your starter goes out is definitely worth more than a second round pick, IMO.


With the schedule that was loaded with third and fourth string QBs and awful defenses the chefs have played, Russell Wilson would have Peyton Manning type numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:38 pm 
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What about the Skins trading RG3 back to the Rams for this years 1st rounder?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:26 pm 
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mistaowen wrote:
The Skins should listen to offers this offseason, esp since Snyder is not gonna let RG3 go. It wouldn't be surprising to see a QB needy team throw a 2nd or 3rd at them for him and they should jump all over that if RG3 is their future.


I was thinking the same thing. Shanahan was already trolling for a 1st out there, but I bet the Skins would take a 2nd in a heartbeat and maybe a 3rd. The Redsksins roster is terrible and they're down draft picks due to the RGIII trade.....they need help.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Washington would be smart to keep him, cheap contract/can fill in for injury/good player but if I was Cleveland or Jacksonville I'd be willing to move a second for him.

Him in Jacksonville with Blackmon(pending another suspension) or Cleveland w/ Josh Gordon and Jordan, holy crap that would be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about this trade?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:58 pm 
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^^^^ Agreed. They still have him for two more years. The smart play is to keep him for next year and see how the coaching change/RGIII's recovery shapes out, and then make the decision.


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