Archie Manning

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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:29 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Yeah, we've never seen you do that............

    Right and wrong are not always subjective.


    No, they're not. But, you're saying Eli's wrong, hence you're request for his suspension?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:34 am
  • I never said suspend him retroactively or anything like that, I'm just saying, if a player wants to refuse to fulfill his end of the bargain with the team that drafted him, he should be forced to sit out of the league for a while.

    You know, like a timeout for a naughty kid that won't eat his peas.

    Oops, I forgot; I'm not a parent, I can't use an analogy involving children. I won't make that mistake again, I swear!
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:35 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:I never said suspend him retroactively or anything like that, I'm just saying, if a player wants to refuse to fulfill his end of the bargain with the team that drafted him, he should be forced to sit out of the league for a while.

    You know, like a timeout for a naughty kid that won't eat his peas.

    Oops, I forgot; I'm not a parent, I can't use an analogy involving children. I won't make that mistake again, I swear!


    Okay. So, what about owners who refuse to fulfill their end of the agreement?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:42 am
  • That agreement never guaranteed the full duration and pay under all circumstances from the employer to the employee. You're not making a proper comparison. The owners aren't on the hook for as much as the players are.

    For instance, if I get you to sign a piece of paper that says I'll give you a dollar for every papaya you bring me, and you are obligated to do this at a rate of one papaya per day for five straight years, and I have a clause in that contract stating I can terminate it at will for no reason, I can do just that and tell you to go away anytime I want, but you can't do the same to me unless you manage to get me to sign that contract with a similar clause in it benefiting you.

    I really don't understand why you're arguing this. Employment contracts almost always benefit the employer more than the employee. The employer has more at stake. (Look at the local machinists union's role in pissing off Boeing to the point of moving clear across the country for some evidence there.)
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:19 pm
  • San Diego turned that first overall pick into Rivers, Merriman, and Kaeding. They didn't miss Superbowls because of not having Eli.

    I will say it again, if there is no rule, there is no right and wrong. Does it make Eli and his dad a couple of Douches? Yep. But being a douche is not against the rules. And I say this knowing that douchbaggery is how come I had to watch Elway in Denver.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:22 pm
  • Roland, I know full well how things work. So, I don't complain about one particular side. You do, not me.

    Go ahead and complain about what Eli did. But, be intellectually honest and play that logic forward and critique owners for similar use of leverage. This isn't sexuality, you gots to pick a side. Now, it took me 30 years to pick one, but I did.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:34 pm
  • pehawk wrote:Roland, I know full well how things work. So, I don't complain about one particular side. You do, not me.


    Actually, you do by your own admission. You said earlier in this thread you support the players side of negotiations no matter what until they get what you deem to be a fair CBA by whatever arbitrary thoughts are floating in your head on the subject. You don't complain about a particular side my ass, Ryan; you've started anti-Goodell and anti-NFL threads and participated in more, every single time backing whatever side the players are on regardless of the issue. That is your history on this forum.

    Also, what in the new CBA inhibits big-dollar second contracts? Once they're eligible to get a new deal, what are the restrictions? Point them out. Here's the CBA for your convenience: http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/201 ... 1-2020.pdf
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:49 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Roland, I know full well how things work. So, I don't complain about one particular side. You do, not me.


    Actually, you do by your own admission. You said earlier in this thread you support the players side of negotiations no matter what until they get what you deem to be a fair CBA by whatever arbitrary thoughts are floating in your head on the subject. You don't complain about a particular side my ass, Ryan; you've started anti-Goodell and anti-NFL threads and participated in more, every single time backing whatever side the players are on regardless of the issue. That is your history on this forum.

    Also, what in the new CBA inhibits big-dollar second contracts? Once they're eligible to get a new deal, what are the restrictions? Point them out. Here's the CBA for your convenience: http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/201 ... 1-2020.pdf


    I don't say Goodell or owners should be suspended though. That's the difference. I'm not here saying "suspend John Schneider for leveraging Michael Robinson". That's the difference. I understand the game, both sides.

    Yes, I think the NFLPA's weak, very weak. When compared to their peers, NFL players get a less fair shake. The CBA doesn't say big contracts are prohibited, its just working out that way. Tough luck for the players, they realize they got taken, yet again. That's not news. Delving into the CBA saying "show me where it says that" is weak, really and intellectually dishonest.

    If you've paid attention, my criticism has been laid at the feet of the NFLPA.

    My hate for Goodell is well-documented. I think he's a puppet for certain owners. I don't like his blindness to "due process" in terms of suspensions. I hate how he preaches player safety one week, then the next week lobby's for an 18 game schedule. That's really not germane to the discussion.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:53 pm
  • pehawk wrote:That's really not germane to the discussion.

    Accusing me of only looking at one side while you do the same on the other side of the spectrum and me calling you out on it with you denying it isn't germane?

    I...see. Sort of. Not really. Carry on, deflect away.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:06 pm
  • No, you said Eli should've been punished for his actions. I've never said the owners should be suspended for not holding up their end of the contracts.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:16 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    pehawk wrote:That's really not germane to the discussion.

    Accusing me of only looking at one side while you do the same on the other side of the spectrum and me calling you out on it with you denying it isn't germane?

    I...see. Sort of. Not really. Carry on, deflect away.

    Roland, everybody leans one way or the other. Or doesn't give a shit. But nobody knows all the facts and is impartial. Which does not mean they can't be objective.

    You apparently want special rules to keep a player from pulling an Eli Manning. And apparently you wanted some sort of sanction at the time, right?

    As I see it, you think that a player agreeing to be in the draft should take away his right of first refusal. Correct? Submitting to the draft process should make pulling an Eli impossible, right? Please, just give me a single word answer, yes or no. No wiggling. I'm not laying some trap, I just don't really want to go back and interpret a zillion words of analogies and comparisons.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:19 pm
  • And also, we need to come up with a dot.net road game viewing party. I want to be the first to buy Roland a beer, this is why.

    I'll host the damn thing if need be. I did once before, but I dropped a bunch of acid and lit a bunch of shit on fire, so, for all I know Roland was there.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:31 pm
  • I already flat-out said you should not be able to pull an Eli, very clearly, earlier in this thread.

    Scottemojo wrote:"Submitting to the draft process should make pulling an Eli impossible, right?"

    Yes.

    Now, if I can elaborate on one small point, I think players should be able to do it IF they pay a severe penalty. As in, what I suggested earlier; a two-year suspension/ban from the league, or something like that. SIGNIFICANT disincentive. The draft should not be susceptible to "Well, I didn't like my cards, I call a misdeal. Round two; fight!" Remember in the recent past when we were a place players wanted to avoid? What if Walter Jones had pulled this and we had to trade him and we received Ryan Leaf for him, or something? A single player should not be able to override what the GM of a freaking team wants to do in the draft.

    Right of first refusal for drafting NFL players? Seriously? We'd probably wind up with half the players in the draft saying "No thanks" up on stage. It'd be a disaster.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:55 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:I already flat-out said you should not be able to pull an Eli, very clearly, earlier in this thread.

    Scottemojo wrote:"Submitting to the draft process should make pulling an Eli impossible, right?"

    Yes.

    Now, if I can elaborate on one small point, I think players should be able to do it IF they pay a severe penalty. As in, what I suggested earlier; a two-year suspension/ban from the league, or something like that. SIGNIFICANT disincentive. The draft should not be susceptible to "Well, I didn't like my cards, I call a misdeal. Round two; fight!" Remember in the recent past when we were a place players wanted to avoid? What if Walter Jones had pulled this and we had to trade him and we received Ryan Leaf for him, or something? A single player should not be able to override what the GM of a freaking team wants to do in the draft.

    Right of first refusal for drafting NFL players? Seriously? We'd probably wind up with half the players in the draft saying "No thanks" up on stage. It'd be a disaster.

    Right of first refusal simply means they don't have to sign a contract with the team that drafts them. When Bo Jackson refused to sign with the Buccaneers, he exercised his right of first refusal.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:00 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:I already flat-out said you should not be able to pull an Eli, very clearly, earlier in this thread.

    Scottemojo wrote:"Submitting to the draft process should make pulling an Eli impossible, right?"

    Yes.

    Now, if I can elaborate on one small point, I think players should be able to do it IF they pay a severe penalty. As in, what I suggested earlier; a two-year suspension/ban from the league, or something like that. SIGNIFICANT disincentive. The draft should not be susceptible to "Well, I didn't like my cards, I call a misdeal. Round two; fight!" Remember in the recent past when we were a place players wanted to avoid? What if Walter Jones had pulled this and we had to trade him and we received Ryan Leaf for him, or something? A single player should not be able to override what the GM of a freaking team wants to do in the draft.

    Right of first refusal for drafting NFL players? Seriously? We'd probably wind up with half the players in the draft saying "No thanks" up on stage. It'd be a disaster.


    So, you want the NFL draftees to submit to rules without ever getting paid or being a professional? They're not in the NFL yet...? Makes sense you support Goodell though. He suspended Pryor for something he did as a student.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:15 pm
  • You're confusing supporting Goodell with being intelligent enough to realize nearly everything people blame him for is at the behest of the owners, Pe.

    @Scotte: You can buy your championships in baseball, and it's a part of why America's sport is now football, not baseball any longer.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:16 pm
  • I'm sure the owners wanted Pryor suspended. Makes sense.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:17 pm
  • Too dumb of a reply to respond to.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:21 pm
  • Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, or revenue sharing. It's not germane.

    And no, its not a dumb reply.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:23 pm
  • Here is the problem, Roland. And it isn't hypothetical.

    If A player has to sign with the team that drafts him, his negotiating stance is severely reduced. Holdoing out his contract, for up to a year even, is the only leverage he has.

    Exhibit A. Bo Jackson. Bo was drafted in the first round by the Bucs in late April, 1986, while in the beginning of baseball season. Just before the baseball draft, where Bo could have gone in the first round (Bo still hadn't said he would not pursue baseball, and may have been using it as leverage in a contract with the Bucs), The Bucs flew him to Tampa for a physical. According to Bo, who had only millions to lose if he was lying, the Bucs told him it had been cleared with the NCAA, and would not hurt his college eligibility (he was flat killing it for Auburn right about then). It had not been cleared with the NCAA, he lost his remaining college eligibility, and is still convinced the Bucs sabotaged him to protect their first pick in the draft status.

    Sure enough, shortly afterward, every team in baseball passed on him several times. He went in the 4th to the Royals. He swore then he would never sign with the Buccaneers.

    If things were as you propose, he would have been forced to sign with the Bucs. Or pay a severe penalty, two years out of the NFL, for refusing to sign with a possibly dishonest group.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:27 pm
  • "I want to be able to illegally post the NFL's trademark product, free of charge, I dont have to listen to them. But 21yo's should just do what the NFL wants before ever becoming professional" - Roland
    Last edited by pehawk on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:29 pm
  • Pehawk's just trolling. I'm exiting the conversation. (Also, what in the world makes you think I would want a beer from you, Ryan?) Suffice to say I disagree in terms of letting people cop out of the team that drafted them when it comes to the NFL, and we're still all BFFs; nothing personal.

    Once-in-several-decades occurrences like Bo Jackson's instance shouldn't be the determining factor for something like this, and the Bucs should not have been allowed to get away with that crap.

    That being said, top prospects should triple-check everything through a sports contract attorney. Look at what happened with the 49er that lost that huge workout bonus. You have to watch out for yourself. (No, that doesn't include whining to get to another team in my book, Pe.)

    Seriously, though; I'm exiting the convo, don't expect further responses from me.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:30 pm
  • I'm not trolling. I guess you can use that as a veiled way to exit, but I'm not trolling.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Pehawk's just trolling. I'm exiting the conversation. (Also, what in the world makes you think I would want a beer from you, Ryan?) Suffice to say I disagree in terms of letting people cop out of the team that drafted them when it comes to the NFL, and we're still all BFFs; nothing personal.

    Once-in-several-decades occurrences like Bo Jackson's instance shouldn't be the determining factor for something like this, and the Bucs should not have been allowed to get away with that crap.

    That being said, top prospects should triple-check everything through a sports contract attorney. Look at what happened with the 49er that lost that huge workout bonus. You have to watch out for yourself. (No, that doesn't include whining to get to another team in my book, Pe.)

    Seriously, though; I'm exiting the convo, don't expect further responses from me.

    How many times have players refused to sign? 3 or 4 total?

    Take away the right of first refusal, add a 2 year ban for not signing, and what happened to Bo would be commonplace.
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