Archie Manning

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Archie Manning
Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:27 pm
  • Watching "The Book of Manning" on ESPN and they are currently chronicling Archie Manning and showing highlights of his college career. I tell you what, his style of play would have been perfect for the current Seahawks team. Dang. Much more athletic than his sons, with the ability to avoid the rush and run the ball, not to mention his ability to huck the ball all around.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:55 pm
  • Its all the rage now for people to say Archie is "over rated" when people say he was a great QB stuck on a horrible team for a over decade. I hate that. I hate people not understanding football was very very different in the 70s and 80s.. and so looking at stat lines and making horrible conclusions.

    Manning was excellent.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:43 pm
  • I did not see him as a college player, but I did have the privilege of seeing him play in the NFL with my own eyes. I concur with your last statement.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:37 pm
  • I started watching it and halfway through i was like, wheres denzel washington?
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Re: Archie Manning
Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:44 am
  • I disagree completely about father Manning.

    I think NO had some success in those years DESPITE Archie Manning!

    He was at best barely average. Always dinged up, always whining (which he did a great job of passing on to his sons).

    Never EVER accepted responsiblity for his mistakes, always blamed them on someone else or some other part of the team.

    I suppose there are people here that think he should be in the hall of fame and I agree, but we differ in what his participation should be. Being a janitor in the building would just about complete the description of his abilitys would be.

    :roll:
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Re: Archie Manning
Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:58 am
  • The Radish wrote:I disagree completely about father Manning.

    I think NO had some success in those years DESPITE Archie Manning!

    He was at best barely average. Always dinged up, always whining (which he did a great job of passing on to his sons).

    Never EVER accepted responsiblity for his mistakes, always blamed them on someone else or some other part of the team.

    I suppose there are people here that think he should be in the hall of fame and I agree, but we differ in what his participation should be. Being a janitor in the building would just about complete the description of his abilitys would be.

    :roll:


    Don't have time to go look it up, but you have already been proven wrong with your memory of Archie. Something about how SF always kicked his a**, and then when you pull the record it's clear no such thing happened.

    Keep on rolling your eyes, they may be the only thing still working in your head.
    Last edited by DTexHawk on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
    And this post is not directed at anyone personally.
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Re: Archie Manning
Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:04 am
  • DTexHawk wrote:
    The Radish wrote:I disagree completely about father Manning.

    I think NO had some success in those years DESPITE Archie Manning!

    He was at best barely average. Always dinged up, always whining (which he did a great job of passing on to his sons).

    Never EVER accepted responsiblity for his mistakes, always blamed them on someone else or some other part of the team.

    I suppose there are people here that think he should be in the hall of fame and I agree, but we differ in what his participation should be. Being a janitor in the building would just about complete the description of his abilitys would be.

    :roll:


    Don't have time to go look it up, but you have already been proven wrong with your memory of Archie. Something about how SF always kicked his a**, and then when you pull the record it's clear no such thing happened.

    Keep on rolling your eyes, they may be the only still working in your head.



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Re: Archie Manning
Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:26 am
  • I didn't see him play college and barely remember him from the NFL, but looking at the game film from the show last night, he looked pretty darn good to me.. Did anybody else think watching him play, that Eli is the spitting image of him on the field.. throwing motion and his body language. really caught my eye. I think eli has a better arm, but it looks like Archie was much more mobile than either of his two sons...
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Re: Archie Manning
Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:33 pm
  • I watched Archie Manning play and he was always one of my favorite players. Great Qb stuck on the 'aints team whose fans wore paper bags over their heads.
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Re: Archie Manning
Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:17 am
  • Being 65 y/o ad a fan of the NFL since I was about 10, I watched Archie play as well.

    Imo, he's far from being HoF material.

    He was fun to watch but he never "tilted the field" as Pete as John like to say.

    He was okay... but so were hundreds more before him and after him.

    And, he was a whiner as The Radish has pointed out.
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Re: Archie Manning
Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:51 pm
  • Archie Manning was and is an exemplary, class individual. I applaud his commitment to being a family man first and a football player second. Whether or not he is HOF material isn't going to define him. But, he was a heck of a player.
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Re: Archie Manning
Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:43 pm
  • The Radish wrote:I disagree completely about father Manning.

    I think NO had some success in those years DESPITE Archie Manning!

    He was at best barely average. Always dinged up, always whining (which he did a great job of passing on to his sons).

    Never EVER accepted responsiblity for his mistakes, always blamed them on someone else or some other part of the team.

    I suppose there are people here that think he should be in the hall of fame and I agree, but we differ in what his participation should be. Being a janitor in the building would just about complete the description of his abilitys would be.

    :roll:
    Obviously I am around 25-30 or so years younger than you so I agree with AGM's assessment more than yours.
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Re: Archie Manning
Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:11 pm
  • Archie was before my time, and I don't pretend to know anything about him. However, watching what he helped Eli do in terms of getting traded after he was drafted, I automatically strongly dislike him regardless of what his skill set was like in the NFL during his day.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:56 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Archie was before my time, and I don't pretend to know anything about him. However, watching what he helped Eli do in terms of getting traded after he was drafted, I automatically strongly dislike him regardless of what his skill set was like in the NFL during his day.

    You're entitled to your opinion. Allow me to offer something to ponder. Yeah, there seemed to be something unusual about that as it was all reported at the time. Does anyone have the complete story on what went down with that? I don't think any of us do. But, we have opinions, for certain.

    Archie and the Manning family wasn't about to get detailed about their reasons, but there must have been a strong enough reason for them to take such a strong stand. Perhaps something in interviews with Chargers management, etc. I don't know. But, I applaud a parent and a Patriarch sticking his neck out - even for his adult kid. There's a mentality today that once someone reaches the age of 18... they need to just make their own decisions as if it's an indication of maturity. Advice and guidance from wise elders is not necessary nor desired. I don't think it says anything about lack of maturity in Eli in this matter. On the contrary, it showed maturity beyond his years to take advisement from his parents on the matter. Too, Archie wasn't acting as some dictator of the family. He was standing quietly strong with their family decision. I understand that this isn't the way we tend to think these days fearing it would be some infringement to our personal independence. Not so (but, that's a longer conversation.)

    This is no digression from the subject matter and very much what was going on in that instance. I think we all wish we were so valued by our elders that they would care to advise and we would care to listen and heed wise counsel. I understand that everyone isn't in that position, but there is something good and right about what we saw. The deal is, though... it's so foreign to our thinking today that many didn't like it - especially how it was portrayed in the media. (The media could have chosen to applaud a family decision, but they simply did not.) I think the Mannings tried to keep it as discreet as possible (I know, the first pick overall is going to get press. The press wasn't about to allow something so wholesome as the jurisdiction of a family to control the perceived jurisdiction of a football organization. Nothing the Mannings did was stating a disrespect for the NFL empire. They just stood strongly to their terms. It was a principled stand.) The Mannings didn't go public with a lot of details and maybe their reasons would not be satisfactory to us anyway. Even if the Mannings just were being attention hungry and wanted Eli to play in the media capital of the world (none of that sounds like the Mannings)... it was their family decision. I not only respect it... I admire it for said reasons.

    This response wasn't directed at you personally, Roland. I think your comment represented commonly held viewpoint of what went down and my reason for taking the time to write on this was only to try to represent a different perspective. I'll admit that I even had some of those thoughts at the time. We're conditioned to think that way - and the opinion gets stronger and untouchable because no one wants to dare defend what most are attacking.

    I hold the jurisdiction of the family in high regard... even if it means one misses out on the praise of the world or if it means one "misses out" on some personal advancement opportunity (which, I grant, wasn't apparently the case for the Mannings either way with the Chargers or Giants. Still, they felt strongly that it was best for Eli not to play with the Chargers organization.)
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:03 am
  • Players should not be able to get re-drafted because they don't like the first team that drafted them. End of story. (Yes, I know he was traded, but he forced himself to get onto another team.)

    If a rookie sits out like that, the NFL should put an automatic two-year suspension on the player, barring them from playing with any team. Nobody would ever do it, then.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:13 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Players should not be able to get re-drafted because they don't like the first team that drafted them. End of story. (Yes, I know he was traded, but he forced himself to get onto another team.)

    If a rookie sits out like that, the NFL should put an automatic two-year suspension on the player, barring them from playing with any team. Nobody would ever do it, then.


    Really? Its that black and white? I don't see it like that.

    As much as I want to dislike the Manning's, I can see their side of the argument on this. I have a choice where to work. You have a choice where to work. And, how do we know if there wasn't good information showing the Chargers maybe aren't the best in terms of medical facilities. If you were a parent, would you get warm fuzzies sending your child to the Browns or Tampa, knowing full well only sharing needles increases your chance for MRSA more, than there? Also, we're talking about potential paralysis anytime the players step on the field, that gives them a little discretion and input, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a league that always comes kicking and screaming to the negotiation table on retirement, medical, or even contract fairness and guarantees.

    It's really easy to say "but they make lots of money to play a game...so they should do what's asked". But, that's equal in laziness and bias, IMO. People say that, almost 100% of the time, because they want the money the ball player makes. Any of us would want the best and most secure scenario for our family's long-term financial health, yet, not for the player in scenarios like this.

    It's baseball, but a great insight into the players viewpoint is a film called "Sugar". No one wears a cape in it, and it's subtle, so no one on this sites watched it. But still, it tells a great story from a players perspective.

    This needs to be viewed through relative terms. If we were in Eli's situation, would we want what's best for us? Einstein developed the theory of relativity for scenarios like this.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:28 am
  • I don't get all the hate on the Mannings for what they did about the draft. Elway did the same damn thing and no one really ever brings that up.

    Also I get Rolands point but at the same time if a team is clearly dysfunctional and you are a player with that type of leverage, why not use it? Teams use every ounce of leverage they have every chance they get.

    I also remember Arian Foster pretty much told us he didn't want to play here. He doesn't get any heat for it.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:33 am
  • I hate Peyton because I played with his type growing up. I played with some douche coaches son all through pop warner, who like Peyton blamed others and cried after losses. I know I'm right in saying he's THAT kid. I hated those types. I just did.

    And, I hate all of you. Especially KCHawkgirl and FlyingGreg...master trolls they are. That's beside the point though.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:46 am
  • Disagree about your point of view, Pehawk. A far more apt analogy is that the NFL is an employer in a particular field (playing football) that is the absolute best, and nothing else remotely compares. You're good enough to get hired on at that company, and the first thing you do is say the position you were assigned to isn't good enough for you, and you refuse to work it until you are given a different one.

    The choice of different employers - your example - is "Go play in the CFL", which you totally can do, but it'd be stupid, of course.

    Why should Archie Manning's ego for his sons to be 1a and 1b of the greatest QBs of all time trump the NFL? It's BS. For a league so (rightfully) concerned with parity, no rookie should be able to do it. You wait and get your shot in free agency like everyone else, or you don't play in the league. That would be my vote if I was an owner. What if DangeRuss had pulled this crap with us? I highly doubt you'd be alright with it if you watched us HAVE to trade him to someone else and he has the rookie year he had with us.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:55 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Disagree about your point of view, Pehawk. A far more apt analogy is that the NFL is an employer in a particular field (playing football) that is the absolute best, and nothing else remotely compares. You're good enough to get hired on at that company, and the first thing you do is say the position you were assigned to isn't good enough for you, and you refuse to work it until you are given a different one.

    The choice of different employers - your example - is "Go play in the CFL", which you totally can do, but it'd be stupid, of course.

    Why should Archie Manning's ego for his sons to be 1a and 1b of the greatest QBs of all time trump the NFL? It's BS. For a league so (rightfully) concerned with parity, no rookie should be able to do it. You wait and get your shot in free agency like everyone else, or you don't play in the league. That would be my vote if I was an owner. What if DangeRuss had pulled this crap with us? I highly doubt you'd be alright with it if you watched us HAVE to trade him to someone else and he has the rookie year he had with us.


    No, I wouldn't. I'm pretty consistent in my views on personal freedoms and the NFL being shady as an organization. Until they get a good CBA, I'll always side with the players, period. Roland, you've complained about not being able to pirate NFL stuff on your youtube channel, yet you'd be okay with risking your body for an employer you think's incompetent? Really?

    Look at this CBA. By design it's meant to not give big money on 2nd contracts. The players got took at the negotiating table, period, end of story. By design its meant to chew up the players and spit them out.

    I think its MESSED up Russell isn't getting paid more. And, if he we're to break his neck Sunday, he'd never get that 2nd contract. "Tough luck"?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:05 am
  • You get supreme compensation for sacrificing your body and it's a personal choice to do so. Give me a break. Firemen, policemen, soldiers, etc. risk more, and get WAY less in return. Do you think they're all just stupid chumps comparatively then, or something?

    Also, the hypocrisy of me being forced to remove 2-minute-long clips when some people have entire commercial-free games on there for YEARS is the main reason I was so pissed about it. I strongly dislike double standards.

    IN regards to the breaking his neck thing, that wouldn't be fair to the player, no; that is INCREDIBLY rare, and you knew the risks when you sign up. Do you also think it's alright for soldiers to complain about getting injured in war when they signed up for the army? Is it alright for doctors to complain about the cost of malpractice insurance and working 30-hour shifts when they elected to go into that field?

    Come on.

    I do agree with your assessment of yourself that you're pretty consistent in your views, but none of us ever knows for sure about extreme scenarios if they never come to fruition. I suspect you'd not be EXACTLY this calm about it if it happened against the Seahawks, but that's just a suspicion on my part, don't take it personally.
    Last edited by RolandDeschain on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:05 am
  • CALIHAWK1 wrote:I don't get all the hate on the Mannings for what they did about the draft. Elway did the same damn thing and no one really ever brings that up.

    Also I get Rolands point but at the same time if a team is clearly dysfunctional and you are a player with that type of leverage, why not use it? Teams use every ounce of leverage they have every chance they get.

    I also remember Arian Foster pretty much told us he didn't want to play here. He doesn't get any heat for it.

    I could be mistaken, but I thought the A. Foster thing came down to him just having a bad attitude on the phone when the Hawks called him on the phone to say they were going to draft him in one of the later rounds (6th or 7th?) and b/c he was upset, the Hawks mistakenly took that as disinterest. Did he really come out and say he didn't want to play in Seattle?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:07 am
  • Cali, the NFL is not a free market. It's one league, with no competition. You can't threaten to go to another top-notch league and still make insane money like you can in soccer. Players know what they're signing up for when they apply to be eligible to be drafted, or sign with a team as an undrafted free agent.

    Also, let's not forget that when Eli did this, high 1st-round picks were making insane money for not even ever having played. Talk about feeling entitled.
    Last edited by RolandDeschain on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:08 am
  • I know they get paid a lot. That doesn't matter though, we all want fair market value. And, I'd complain a lot less if the NFL had guaranteed contracts. Right now owners don't have to show any commitment to a player if he breaks a leg and never plays again. That's not fair market when compared to the NHL, MLB or NBA.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:11 am
  • NFL owners show commitment to the fans. (To an extent. Believe me, I know money talks and BS walks, I'm not naive.) Having all/most of every player's salary guaranteed with a salary cap-based system like the NFL has would cripple franchises that have a string of bad luck with injuries.

    Part of the allure of the NFL for a lot of people is the fact that every single year, some teams that were crappy for at least a few years turn it around. Things always get shaken up.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:13 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:NFL owners show commitment to the fans. (To an extent. Believe me, I know money talks and BS walks, I'm not naive.) Having all/most of every player's salary guaranteed with a salary cap-based system like the NFL has would cripple franchises that have a string of bad luck with injuries.

    Part of the allure of the NFL for a lot of people is the fact that every single year, some teams that were crappy for at least a few years turn it around. Things always get shaken up.


    Yeah, and the price to achieve that is pro athletes who have the worst labor deal. That's why I said its not a black and white issue. I'll always side with someone's right to do what they want, even if it means acting like an ass and not playing for SD. If the owners have the right to run their league like that, the players have a right to use whatever leverage they may have.

    Its not black and white.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:15 am
  • Archie wasn't even a know player to most of us born after he played. Really the only reason anyone talks about his is thanks to his sons. I imagine if you asked a 20 yo from say Dallas if he knew anything about Dave Kreig. He might know the name, but nothing else.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:25 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:You get supreme compensation for sacrificing your body and it's a personal choice to do so. Give me a break. Firemen, policemen, soldiers, etc. risk more, and get WAY less in return. Do you think they're all just stupid chumps comparatively then, or something?



    No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

    What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

    What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.
    And this post is not directed at anyone personally.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:29 am
  • Roland, it's tough to draw comparisons to this with Policeman, Fireman, etc. That's appealing to more of a sense of emotion and perhaps more serves to derail the conversation - especially since you assumed the worst with a tacit accusation that those professions are unworthy comparatively. I really hate when people do that b/c it's a tactic used to get someone to cave b/c it's an attempt at guilt by association. No one said that.

    I think what you're trying to get at (and which I agree with)... is gratefulness. You seem to be saying, at least on some level, that players like Eli Manning (and his family) should be grateful for the opportunity. But, it isn't a case to suggest they were being ungrateful for the opportunity to have an issue with just one particular situation they would rather not get into (and they were prepared to sit out if that was forced upon them.) That doesn't necessarily mean they felt entitled.

    I know we all look to use logic to build our case. But, we often bring assumptions and personal feelings into our logic which doesn't really achieve clarity. That's projecting accusations on the Mannings in this case. I agree with the post that leverage was in their corner. Not all players are going to have that leverage. The Mannings were simply in a position to exercise that leverage. A 7th round draft choice isn't going to have that luxury, of course. But, it's an unfair assessment to project upon a family that they are ungrateful just because they have leverage.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:31 am
  • Roland wrote:Do you also think it's alright for soldiers to complain about getting injured in war when they signed up for the army? Is it alright for doctors to complain about the cost of malpractice insurance and working 30-hour shifts when they elected to go into that field?

    With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:38 am
  • CPHawk wrote:Archie wasn't even a know player to most of us born after he played. Really the only reason anyone talks about his is thanks to his sons. I imagine if you asked a 20 yo from say Dallas if he knew anything about Dave Kreig. He might know the name, but nothing else.

    There's lots of players in the history of the game fans should know about. Archie Manning ushered in a new type of QB. Players like him have made their mark on the game and contributed to the evolution of the game. While their comparative talent may be debated, it's unnecessary to dismiss their contributions - especially if you really know little about him. Having watched him play and learning more following the game for nearly 40 years... Archie Manning is a player that made a mark and should be remembered. Yes, because of his sons success, his playing days gets more attention... as it should.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:57 am
  • DTexHawk wrote:No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

    What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

    What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.


    People at the top of their game, (i.e. all starting NFL players) virtually always have increased risks. It's part of being at the top; bigger risks, bigger rewards. If you accept a promotion to be the CEO of your company, same situation. Pressure's on, if things don't work well you can be fired very quickly and disgraced, etc. The top of pretty much any profession has increased risks, culpability, potential rewards, etc.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:58 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    DTexHawk wrote:No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

    What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

    What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.


    People at the top of their game, (i.e. all starting NFL players) virtually always have increased risks. It's part of being at the top; bigger risks, bigger rewards. If you accept a promotion to be the CEO of your company, same situation. Pressure's on, if things don't work well you can be fired very quickly and disgraced, etc. The top of pretty much any profession has increased risks, culpability, potential rewards, etc.


    Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:05 am
  • ClumsyLurk wrote:With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.


    Provide some evidence to support your assertion. Both are for-profit industries. One is for entertainment, the other is primarily to fix ailments and illnesses, but look at the salaries some top doctors of oncology and such make. Football is not a game, it's a business that profits from entertaining people. Night clubs, ice skating arenas, paintball courses, etc. all fall under that as well. We like to think of pro sports as being more, and in some ways they are, but they are still BUSINESSES that exist to make a profit. Just like private hospitals. Doctors become doctors to "help people" just like lawyers become lawyers to fight for injustice. (Namely, the vast majority don't.)
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:09 am
  • pehawk wrote:Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?


    Right. You don't have that power in the NFL. The Chargers decided to just get rid of Eli rather than punish him/deal with the consequences, that doesn't mean he's allowed to do what he did. Blackmail is typically illegal. :) 32 possible teams, all in the same league. As I said before, FAR more akin to different positions in the same company than different companies; or different offices around the country/world working for the same corporation.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:14 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?


    Right. You don't have that power in the NFL. The Chargers decided to just get rid of Eli rather than punish him/deal with the consequences, that doesn't mean he's allowed to do what he did. Blackmail is typically illegal. :) 32 possible teams, all in the same league. As I said before, FAR more akin to different positions in the same company than different companies; or different offices around the country/world working for the same corporation.


    How is that blackmail? Talk about using extremes to paint your argument.

    Where did you fall on Michael Robinson? All he did is perform, better than expected, and he got asked to take a pay cut. A Pro Bowl season got rewarded with a paycut. He signed a contract, out preformed it, and the owners and team decided to reward that loyalty by asking he take a paycut. Based on what you say here, the team should honor their contract, right?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:17 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    ClumsyLurk wrote:With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.


    Provide some evidence to support your assertion. Both are for-profit industries. One is for entertainment, the other is primarily to fix ailments and illnesses, but look at the salaries some top doctors of oncology and such make. Football is not a game, it's a business that profits from entertaining people. Night clubs, ice skating arenas, paintball courses, etc. all fall under that as well. We like to think of pro sports as being more, and in some ways they are, but they are still BUSINESSES that exist to make a profit. Just like private hospitals. Doctors become doctors to "help people" just like lawyers become lawyers to fight for injustice. (Namely, the vast majority don't.)


    I didn't say that the medical industry was not for proffit nor a business. I was merely trying to imply that they are necessary services for the good of the public. If it came down to entertainment we'd be paying TV doctors more than real doctors and terry schiavo would have been a sequel to the notebook.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:40 am
  • It IS blackmail, and that is not extreme. You enter into an agreement when you sign paperwork to apply for draft eligibility. You're promising your services to the team that drafts you. What, you think you're not locked into the team that drafts you? Why don't see good players demanding trades to elite teams every week, then?

    If you work for an IT consulting company and you get assigned to do a 4-month contract for a company you don't like, you can't just go to your boss and refuse to do that contract and insist upon a different one. (You can try, but in most cases, good luck; not happening.) Same situation. What, because it's football, it's different? Go read the CBA, including the contract. You can find them here, along with 5 surprising things about NFL contracts most people don't know: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/5-c ... e-you.html

    The difference with M-Rob, and every other NFL player, is that they are bound by the rules of the NFL. Things happen that aren't fair. Most employment contracts with virtually any company you can name also contain disclaimers saying they can fire you at will. Things happen all the time for everyone in life that aren't fair. It's not fair that the refs screwed us in Super Bowl XL, but it still happened and we had to deal with it.

    My point was never that things are supposed to be fair and even. That's not reality; that's not life.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:44 am
  • So, let me get this straight, when a NFL team doesn't honor a contract it's "life"? When they use leverage its "life...tough luck". But, when a player uses leverage, like Eli, they should be suspended? Really?

    I'm not the one making this black and white, I understand full well it's reality. Which is why I'm saying if a NFL team has a right to force a paycut a player has the right to use their leverage. I think this proves my point, this is all about jealousy over salary.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:47 am
  • Why do you think the NFL should be exempt from that power, as the employer, when virtually no other employers are, all the way from Burger King to Microsoft?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:49 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Why do you think the NFL should be exempt from that power, as the employer, when virtually no other employers are, all the way from Burger King to Microsoft?


    The same reason you're saying player should be exempt from less choices as us. It's your argument.

    And again, I need to know why its only okay of the owners use leverage and not the players.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:51 am
  • The players can freely use whatever leverage they want that doesn't violate things they have legally agreed to.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:54 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:The players can freely use whatever leverage they want that doesn't violate things they have legally agreed to.


    But, you said they should be suspended for that, in Eli's case? But, the owners can back out of legal contracts with no repercussions?

    I think both sides have a right to do what they want. And, I don't want either side punished for negotiating with their own best interests in mind. You seem to only want one side to be able to do that. I've never seen you post anything saying an owner should be suspended for forcing paycuts. But, Eli's a punk for using his leverage?
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:03 am
  • My overall point is, people can only see one-side of the argument. Most fans get on the owners side in a holdout or contract dispute, but they don't play their own logic through when the roles are reversed, ala Michael Robinson.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:10 am
  • There is a lot of talk about what is right and wrong. I think the only thing that applies here is what you can and can't do. People can talk about where they refuse to play. Teams can believe them if they want to. They can use that talk to then draft the player anyway and force draft picks out of the team that wanted that player to begin with.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:12 am
  • pehawk wrote:Most fans get on the owners side in a holdout or contract dispute,


    Definitely not what happened during the lockout. The vast majority of Internet talk all over the place was comprised of people ragging on Goodell and the league; most fans supported the players.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:23 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Most fans get on the owners side in a holdout or contract dispute,


    Definitely not what happened during the lockout. The vast majority of Internet talk all over the place was comprised of people ragging on Goodell and the league; most fans supported the players.


    Not from what I saw. But, I was talking more in line with individual contracts.

    Scotte nailed it, Eli wasn't wrong, really. Just like JS wasn't wrong in forcing Robinson to take a cut.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:29 am
  • pehawk wrote:Scotte nailed it, Eli wasn't wrong, really. Just like JS wasn't wrong in forcing Robinson to take a cut.


    Well, from the perspective of Eli helping Eli, of course he wasn't wrong. That doesn't mean that everything you do that benefits yourself is right, or legal, or justified. Geez, if you believe that, go rob a bank; ethically earn that stolen cash! You got away with it, so you deserve it! ;)
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:47 am
  • I'll never impose my morality on someone else. I understand Eli and I may have different values.
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Re: Archie Manning
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:06 am
  • Yeah, we've never seen you do that............

    Right and wrong are not always subjective.
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