Read Option : the 49ers version

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Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:48 am
  • A very well done piece by Sam Monson of Pro Football Focus on how the 49ers use the read option. It seems they really take advantage of a very good O line and make use their athletic guards ability to move in space

    Probably one of the best break downs I have seen to date

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... of-attack/
    Last edited by Happypuppy on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:53 am
  • The 49'ers line is scary good, as we found out last year at their place.

    The good news is that I think RW is a far more well rounded QB than Kaepernicknack. Teams are REALLY going to load up the box to stop the niners run game and read option, and force Kaepernick to beat them in the air. IMO this is the main reason I picked the Hawks to win the West. Wilson > Kaep.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:59 am
  • That's a great article, thanks for sharing. I'm really looking forward to week 2!
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:20 am
  • Yeah, it has been kind a revelation to think of each read option team individually rather than lump them together.
    That is a great O-line. They want to find the quit in a defensive line.

    One particular play stands out. Early in the Green Bay playoff game, the Pack was doing pretty good stopping the Niners. Kaep dropped back, BJ Raji had his standard double team, Kaep threw the ball, Raji turned to watch the ball fly, and a third Niner lineman, Staley I think it was, just earholed him and laid him out. Sure it was a cheapshot. So what. It was the playoffs, and a message was sent (the same message our guys got when they were laying those traps in our first game). Even though that game was tied at 24 in the 4th, it had the feel that the physicality of the Niners was getting to the Pack. Which proved true.

    I heard a coach recently talking up the read option because the pistol formation that it is often run from is essentially just a short shotgun I formation. The standard gun is difficult to run from, the pistol is not. A standard gun limits running to a couple of zone looks because the line has to sell a pass block set, The pistol doesn't require that.

    To my mind, if the pistol is here to stay, so is the read option.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:22 pm
  • Good read. So did SEA avoid succumbing to this o-line in week 16 because we got out in front so quickly and didn't have to deal with as much run/option play?
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:27 pm
  • E.C. Laloosh wrote:Good read. So did SEA avoid succumbing to this o-line in week 16 because we got out in front so quickly and didn't have to deal with as much run/option play?

    SF started the game a bit cute with passing. They tried to set up the line trap, but it didn't work. I think communication was too difficult for them that game.

    Truth is, no option QB had a great game vs the Hawks last year. Not Kaep, Newton, or RGIII (though he started strong for sure). Those offenses combined for 30 points total.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:50 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:Yeah, it has been kind a revelation to think of each read option team individually rather than lump them together.
    That is a great O-line. They want to find the quit in a defensive line.

    One particular play stands out. Early in the Green Bay playoff game, the Pack was doing pretty good stopping the Niners. Kaep dropped back, BJ Raji had his standard double team, Kaep threw the ball, Raji turned to watch the ball fly, and a third Niner lineman, Staley I think it was, just earholed him and laid him out. Sure it was a cheapshot. So what. It was the playoffs, and a message was sent (the same message our guys got when they were laying those traps in our first game). Even though that game was tied at 24 in the 4th, it had the feel that the physicality of the Niners was getting to the Pack. Which proved true.

    I heard a coach recently talking up the read option because the pistol formation that it is often run from is essentially just a short shotgun I formation. The standard gun is difficult to run from, the pistol is not. A standard gun limits running to a couple of zone looks because the line has to sell a pass block set, The pistol doesn't require that.

    To my mind, if the pistol is here to stay, so is the read option.


    Couldn't agree more.

    Lost in all the Read Option stories tho is that while BOTH SF and Seattle used the Pistol Formation and the Read Option play, neither team used it as the mainstay of their offense. Both teams were able to use more conventional sets and plays and were still able to play very effectively.

    Both teams also have a dominant run game which made the QBs job much easier and made play action DEADLY.

    I can't speak so much on Wilson because i watched him far less than Kaep, but one of the criticisms of Kaep is the "One Read" thing. Personally, I don't put alot of merit into it because most often that first option was open...so he didn't HAVE to check down. Thats a product of great play design, an outstanding line, and a huge threat in the run game.

    There is a reason Kaep led the NFL in Yards Per Attempt. I think Kaep has all the tools to be a great one, but I'm not so off my rocker that I don't recognize the part the rest of the team plays in his success. I'm sure some of the same can be applied to Wilson. I do agree tho that at this point, Wilson is a more polished passer with more experience in a conventional pro style offense.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:04 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Yeah, it has been kind a revelation to think of each read option team individually rather than lump them together.
    That is a great O-line. They want to find the quit in a defensive line.

    One particular play stands out. Early in the Green Bay playoff game, the Pack was doing pretty good stopping the Niners. Kaep dropped back, BJ Raji had his standard double team, Kaep threw the ball, Raji turned to watch the ball fly, and a third Niner lineman, Staley I think it was, just earholed him and laid him out. Sure it was a cheapshot. So what. It was the playoffs, and a message was sent (the same message our guys got when they were laying those traps in our first game). Even though that game was tied at 24 in the 4th, it had the feel that the physicality of the Niners was getting to the Pack. Which proved true.

    I heard a coach recently talking up the read option because the pistol formation that it is often run from is essentially just a short shotgun I formation. The standard gun is difficult to run from, the pistol is not. A standard gun limits running to a couple of zone looks because the line has to sell a pass block set, The pistol doesn't require that.

    To my mind, if the pistol is here to stay, so is the read option.


    Couldn't agree more.

    Lost in all the Read Option stories tho is that while BOTH SF and Seattle used the Pistol Formation and the Read Option play, neither team used it as the mainstay of their offense. Both teams were able to use more conventional sets and plays and were still able to play very effectively.

    Both teams also have a dominant run game which made the QBs job much easier and made play action DEADLY.

    I can't speak so much on Wilson because i watched him far less than Kaep, but one of the criticisms of Kaep is the "One Read" thing. Personally, I don't put alot of merit into it because most often that first option was open...so he didn't HAVE to check down. Thats a product of great play design, an outstanding line, and a huge threat in the run game.

    There is a reason Kaep led the NFL in Yards Per Attempt. I think Kaep has all the tools to be a great one, but I'm not so off my rocker that I don't recognize the part the rest of the team plays in his success. I'm sure some of the same can be applied to Wilson. I do agree tho that at this point, Wilson is a more polished passer with more experience in a conventional pro style offense.

    Don't make this a Kaep vs Wilson thing, please.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm
  • Scott you have a very good insight on the dealings with both teams. This year is a must evolve year for Kap. teams will force him to be uncomfortable. I was watching an interview with Kap he was saying he likes the read option because he has the ability o keep his eyes on the D while faking or handing the ball off anf that split second he said helps him alot. I wonder how other QB's feel on that statement.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:42 pm
  • Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:48 pm
  • Seahawks were primed for that game they took it to my Niners from the get go. Nothing could change the turn of events that day. It was a perfect game plan.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:48 pm
  • Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:45 pm
  • Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:48 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Yeah, it has been kind a revelation to think of each read option team individually rather than lump them together.
    That is a great O-line. They want to find the quit in a defensive line.

    One particular play stands out. Early in the Green Bay playoff game, the Pack was doing pretty good stopping the Niners. Kaep dropped back, BJ Raji had his standard double team, Kaep threw the ball, Raji turned to watch the ball fly, and a third Niner lineman, Staley I think it was, just earholed him and laid him out. Sure it was a cheapshot. So what. It was the playoffs, and a message was sent (the same message our guys got when they were laying those traps in our first game). Even though that game was tied at 24 in the 4th, it had the feel that the physicality of the Niners was getting to the Pack. Which proved true.

    I heard a coach recently talking up the read option because the pistol formation that it is often run from is essentially just a short shotgun I formation. The standard gun is difficult to run from, the pistol is not. A standard gun limits running to a couple of zone looks because the line has to sell a pass block set, The pistol doesn't require that.

    To my mind, if the pistol is here to stay, so is the read option.


    Couldn't agree more.

    Lost in all the Read Option stories tho is that while BOTH SF and Seattle used the Pistol Formation and the Read Option play, neither team used it as the mainstay of their offense. Both teams were able to use more conventional sets and plays and were still able to play very effectively.

    Both teams also have a dominant run game which made the QBs job much easier and made play action DEADLY.

    I can't speak so much on Wilson because i watched him far less than Kaep, but one of the criticisms of Kaep is the "One Read" thing. Personally, I don't put alot of merit into it because most often that first option was open...so he didn't HAVE to check down. Thats a product of great play design, an outstanding line, and a huge threat in the run game.

    There is a reason Kaep led the NFL in Yards Per Attempt. I think Kaep has all the tools to be a great one, but I'm not so off my rocker that I don't recognize the part the rest of the team plays in his success. I'm sure some of the same can be applied to Wilson. I do agree tho that at this point, Wilson is a more polished passer with more experience in a conventional pro style offense.

    Don't make this a Kaep vs Wilson thing, please.


    Sorry...wasn't my intent...just mentioned it because a previous poster did.

    My point was actually in support of BOTH guys who get the "Its just the read-option thing that makes them good and defenses will figure that out". That's BS in both cases.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:50 pm
  • 12th_Bob wrote:Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.


    Thats actually very true. Losing Vernon was huge in that game. The Niners were driving there for a score and that hit dislodged the ball right there inside the 5. They ended up settling for a field goal attempt...that was blocked and run back the other way.....and the route was on.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:52 pm
  • mr.stlouis wrote:Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:


    Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

    The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

    So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:55 pm
  • heyu123 wrote:Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.


    Well...you are partially right.

    It is Harbaugh/Roman.

    It is the Line.

    Its also Kaep tho. He is deadly accurate on passed longer than 15 yards (Highest completion % in the NFL). Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:13 pm
  • rlkats wrote:Scott you have a very good insight on the dealings with both teams. This year is a must evolve year for Kap. teams will force him to be uncomfortable. I was watching an interview with Kap he was saying he likes the read option because he has the ability o keep his eyes on the D while faking or handing the ball off anf that split second he said helps him alot. I wonder how other QB's feel on that statement.


    Actually, watching Kaep, one of the things that stood out was how much better a play action QB he is on the pistol looks where he never takes his eyes off the D with comparitively more struggles in a traditional drop back play fake where he has to take his eyes off the D. I don't see that comfort level with the pistol changing, he has had at least 6 years of practice in that formation.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:16 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    rlkats wrote:Scott you have a very good insight on the dealings with both teams. This year is a must evolve year for Kap. teams will force him to be uncomfortable. I was watching an interview with Kap he was saying he likes the read option because he has the ability o keep his eyes on the D while faking or handing the ball off anf that split second he said helps him alot. I wonder how other QB's feel on that statement.


    Actually, watching Kaep, one of the things that stood out was how much better a play action QB he is on the pistol looks where he never takes his eyes off the D with comparitively more struggles in a traditional drop back play fake where he has to take his eyes off the D. I don't see that comfort level with the pistol changing, he has had at least 6 years of practice in that formation.


    That's very accurate... he seemed to excel both passing and running out of the pistol formation, where some of the drop back plays required him to turn his back... He's even mentioned that as part of his game he's looking to improve in the offseason.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:17 pm
  • 12th_Bob wrote:Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.

    I wouldn't bet on it. Kaepernick barely targeted Davis throughout the regular season once he was the starter.

    Marvin49 wrote:Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.

    Not really. Alex Smith attempted deep passes (defined as any pass attempt in the air 20+ yards) on 8.7% of his throws. Kaepernick attempted them 15.1% of the time. Almost twice as many.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:28 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    12th_Bob wrote:Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.

    I wouldn't bet on it. Kaepernick barely targeted Davis throughout the regular season once he was the starter.

    Marvin49 wrote:Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.

    Not really. Alex Smith attempted deep passes (defined as any pass attempt in the air 20+ yards) on 8.7% of his throws. Kaepernick attempted them 15.1% of the time. Almost twice as many.


    Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    The offense was the same....the QBs decision making within the framework of that offense was completely different.

    Alex was far less accurate on longer passes and checked down ALOT more often to shorter passes. Stacking the line was effective against the 49ers because Alex usually wouldn't throw deep down the field to take advantage of the D stacking the box.

    Kaep made teams pay for stacking the box because he was much more willing to throw deeper passes and far more accurate when doing so.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:33 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:40 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:57 pm
  • The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:03 pm
  • rlkats wrote:The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)

    Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:13 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Yeah, but wasn't Smith off the field for that?
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:17 pm
  • I agree Scott. When Harbaugh speaks to reporters I tune him out. I dont know when he i F in with them or serious. Roland ya Smith was of the field for that.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:43 pm
  • The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

    Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:12 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:19 pm
  • heyu123 wrote:The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

    Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.


    While its true that they incorporated the Pistol package more as Kaep became the starter, The 49ers had just as many deep routes with Alex than with Kaep. The difference is that Alex wouldn't throw the ball and would check down. Kaep would make the throw.

    It was the same offense. Cutting edge RUN BASED offense with multiple shifts at the line and fairly easy reads in the passing game. Just about every type of run play you can think of and a few you can't. That run game is what made play action so deadly and is a big reason why Kaep was almost always able to find player open down the field. He is a very accurate thrower of those passes, but the scheme was very good at creating those matchups.

    Alex had those same advantages...in fact the 49ers rush offense was BETTER with Alex than with Kaep....but Alex just wouldn't take those chances. That's why his passes were always so short and why he rarely turned the ball over.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:21 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,


    INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:26 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,


    INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.


    lol. :D
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:06 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.

    You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
    Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
    Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:27 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.

    You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
    Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
    Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).


    I never said they hadn't run it before....but they didn't run it nearly as often in the regular season as in the post season.

    I know the diff between the Pistol and the Read Option.

    As for what I'm talking about specifically, the 49ers ran very few read option plays in the weeks before the playoffs. If you don't believe me about the Pack being surprised, watch the interviews with Packer players after the game...specifically, Clay Matthews.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:29 pm
  • Matthews being obtuse doesn't mean you're right. ;)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:35 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Matthews being obtuse doesn't mean you're right. ;)


    :D
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:01 am
  • With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:05 am
  • sutz wrote:With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)

    It's not even close, either. The other teams that can afford to do that depend on their pass rush to generate pressure on the QB. On downs where they don't, they are at big risk for giving up a big play.

    I firmly believe that whenever we can get a GOOD, solid, consistent pass rush going, we are going to see the Legion of Boom perform at a whole new level.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:12 am
  • sutz wrote:With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)

    +1
    Agreed. That is how you beat it edge pressure , jam the TE. Safety's or CB blitz gap as needed. Which coincidently is one of the things Winfield is superb at.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:55 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    mr.stlouis wrote:Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:


    Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

    The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

    So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)


    They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:51 pm
  • I'm puzzled. There's several niner fans, a Ram fan, roland....and it's intelligent reading?!? Okay, I've obviously been reading this forum too much cuz I'm having some wierd dream. When I wake up this thread will certainly not really be here.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:25 pm
  • Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:39 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.

    :D all in jest, Roland, all in jest. Especially the intelligent part {j/k}
    Richard Sherman doesn't just wanna get in your head, he wants to build a vacation home there.

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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:24 pm
  • No!

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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:54 pm
  • What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

    The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:54 am
  • KCHawkGirl wrote:What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

    The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.


    They run a far different version. To my eye, Kaepernick makes his option decisions far faster than RW. They run formations with up to 4 runners in a diamond formation (including Kaep). They run the pistol with heavy sets. They run that look with a 300 pound DT as a lead blocker. The pistol in particular is a staple for Kaepernick, without it he loses a lot of his advantages.

    They had Kaepernick taking pistol formation snaps in pretty much every game, even the ones Alex started. Kaepernick ran the pistol at Nevada to the tune of about 14,000 total yards.

    Why is it more dangerous? Ask the Packers. They had a piss poor plan and it killed them.

    Ours is a changeup. Russell never ran it before last year. Russell holds the ball til the last second, there were a lot of precarious moments as he waited a defensive end out, nearly resulting in a half dozen fumbles. Still, fail to plan for it and die, just ask the Bears and Bills.

    Who had what first is immaterial, as are any comparisons to who runs the WCO better.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:37 am
  • I do agree that we use it as a change up and Wilson is far less likely to keep the ball preferring to either pass out of it or hand off far more than Kaepernick. And Green Bay? You couldn't have a gameplan any worse than what they did. I am sure that isn't going to happen again though, they had all offseason and tape to study and surely they will have figured out a better way to go.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:10 am
  • You asked for the differences, I gave them. You couldn't have a worse gameplan for stopping Wilson than the Bills did, as well. Kaepernick passes from th epistol plenty, in fact it is his greatest strength as a passer, allowing him to play action without taking his eyes off the defense.

    In fact, I would argue that for Kaepernick in particular, the Pistol is vital to his success. You know how the read option freezes a DE? The play action from the pistol does the same thing to a peeking linebacker or DB, but unlike a traditional play action where the QB has his back to the D and has to re-establish eye contact. Kaepernick gets to watch it all unfold, and this is the pass that Kaepernick is making his big plays on as of now. Also, the debate about Kaep being a one read guy is really centered around this play, it is the look he most consistently makes that 2nd stacked read from. If the safety moves down, he goes over the top to the deep route, if the safety stays deep, he drops it in over the LB on the shorter route runner, and if both look covered he has an even shorter option. That isn't exact, but it should give you an idea of what they are doing passing from the pistol. From under center play action, Kaepernick was far more likely to make the one read and run if it was not there. Point is, that pistol pass set lets him treat the safety just like he treats the DE on a running read option, while never taking his eyes off the defense.

    Seriously, watch a game where you just observe the way a QB does things differently when he never takes his eyes off the D vs a true play action.

    Our passes from the pistol were not that complex. It is primarily one target (like the pass to Rice to win the CHI game). Which is to be expected, like noted, Wilson was new to RO and pistol. Conversely, Wilson was far more likely to make multiple reads from play action, which makes sense considering his background in college.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:11 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:The 49'ers line is scary good, as we found out last year at their place.

    The good news is that I think RW is a far more well rounded QB than Kaepernicknack. Teams are REALLY going to load up the box to stop the niners run game and read option, and force Kaepernick to beat them in the air. IMO this is the main reason I picked the Hawks to win the West. Wilson > Kaep.


    Statistically this isn't true. It's more divided and depends on the criteria you're looking at. Colin DID beat teams through the air. Repeatedly. Wilson is statistically better at passing out of the pocket than Kaep, but Kaep is statistically better in the pocket (numbers don't lie my friend). Why people think Colin can't pass the ball from the pocket is astounding to me. Here are what the FACTS say:


    Total QBR in the pocket:

    Colin Kaepernick: 83.0

    Russell Wilson: 77.0


    Both are good in the pocket, but Kaepernick is better.


    Now, contrary to popular belief by nearly everyone, Wilson is much better passing OUTSIDE the pocket (in fact he's a freaking stud at it).

    Total QBR OUTSIDE the pocket:

    Russell Wilson: 62.5

    Colin Kaepernick: 15.6



    The FACTS say that Colin is better in the pocket, but Wilson is MUCH better outside of it. You might think that puts Russell over the edge. I'd say no, since Total QBR combined gives Colin the edge.

    Colin: 76.8
    Russell: 69.6 *(note that both of these are PRO BOWL caliber numbers)

    So why does Colin get the NUMERICAL edge if Russell is WAY better at passing from outside the pocket? Simple: quarterbacks in the NFL have to be able to pass in the pocket MUCH more often. BOTH of these guys are very good at it. I still say overall the numbers indicate that this is a wash (since there are non-quantifiable factors). You can't really say who is better based on the objective facts. Only subjectivity can determine a victor.



    Scottemojo wrote:
    E.C. Laloosh wrote:Good read. So did SEA avoid succumbing to this o-line in week 16 because we got out in front so quickly and didn't have to deal with as much run/option play?

    SF started the game a bit cute with passing. They tried to set up the line trap, but it didn't work. I think communication was too difficult for them that game.

    Truth is, no option QB had a great game vs the Hawks last year. Not Kaep, Newton, or RGIII (though he started strong for sure). Those offenses combined for 30 points total.


    Kaepernick is no more an option QB than Wilson is. See above:



    Scottemojo wrote:
    rlkats wrote:The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)

    Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.


    That started against Green Bay. For the most part, it was the same formations. And I know you disagree, but tell me: did you watch every single 49er game last year? I didn't think so. Fact is neither the Pistol formation nor the read-option were used very much prior to the playoffs. MAYBE twice a game, and that's just an average.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:39 am
  • rideaducati wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    mr.stlouis wrote:Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:


    Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

    The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

    So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)


    They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!


    Not every team has the Seahawk secondary.
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