Read Option : the 49ers version

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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:54 am
  • 5_Golden_Rings wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

    At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success.


    Ah, so whence came the success in his regular season starts in which the Pistol formation was used maybe two or three times per game? I am quite sure you barely watched any 49ers games last year except in the postseason and against Seattle. You pretty much prove it with this.

    Scottemojo wrote: Your team loses their run advantage from the gun,

    Meanwhile Kaep was tremendously successful passing from the regular gun.

    Scottemojo wrote: and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.


    But you misunderstand them. Kaep is a perfectionist. His "weakest" areas AREN'T weaknesses in the sense you think. Evidence? Watch some regular season 49er games in which Kaepernick did OUTSTANDING in play action passes from traditional formations. Case in point (took two seconds on youtube because unlike you I watched every 49er game and know where to look):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iMLA1_q2xw&t=1m34s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=3m21s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=4m58s

    Watch how he launches the ball with a defender in his face, too (slightly different topic, but still). Look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=2m52s



    I guess what I'm saying is that you're messing up the relative scales. Kaepernick is really, REALLY good at the read-option and exploiting the Pistol formation. By necessity that means he is BETTER at that then play-action from under center. IT DOES NOT FOLLOW then that Kaepernick is bad at play-action from under center. In fact, he isn't. He's pretty decent at it. Not the best, but good.

    You might also think that because he is (let's face it) the VERY BEST QB in the NFL in the Pistol that he therefore can't pass from under center. False. He is actually extremely good at passing on 3 and 5 step drops. Much better than Alex Smith ever has been.






    Here are weaknesses 49ER fans, fans who have watched every game (unlike you), would list (and I'll throw in Wilson comparisons, too):

    1. Unlike Wilson, when things go terribly wrong Colin has had trouble improvising. When the snap is low, for example, he has thrown picks or fumbled (case in point, bad snap against the Saints led to his first interception; low snaps against New England led to fumbles).

    2. Unlike Wilson, when timing is messed up Kaep has a tendency to force things that aren't there (case in point, pick six against Green Bay).

    3. Awkward delivery.

    4. Unlike Wilson, he throws risky passes. Often times his arm strength is 96-97 Favre-like, so it works, but it makes us 49er fans uneasy at times the way he trusts his arm so much in tight coverage.


    But play-action under center? He might consider it one of his weak spots, but he has NOT struggled with that in games. He has done as well or better than Alex Smith did at that.


    Ug...hard to watch that video. I created the entire first part (regular season stuff) to the Batman score in HD....and the NFL had youtube take it down. Hard to watch it with that crap music and low quality.

    BTW...not directly pertinent, but a great mythbuster on Kaep.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/ ... kaepernick
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:09 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:He lines up in a short gun (about 4 yards back) with a single back behind him AKA pistol a lot more than 2-3 times per game. I did watch them all 49er games. He also lines up in the gun (about 5 yards back) a ton.

    If there was a formation he rarely lines up in, it would be under center. In fact, in the SB they pretty much abandoned all but the pistol and the gun. We can argue about that one yard if you wish, my point is that he is a far better passing QB when his drop back and play fake allow him to keep his eyes on the defense.

    Why do you think they call traditional play action only about 3 or 4 times per game for him? Because he is so good at it?

    Also curious, while Kaep excels at the pistol, Gore suffered terribly from the formation.


    A couple things....

    1) I would agree they ran it more than 2 or 3 times, but it was nowhere near as much as you are saying. They didn't really roll out a steady diet of it until the playoffs. You are trying to make the case that he couldn't play without the pistol. That is simply incorrect. He played a number of games from the gun and under center and he was functional in both formations. Is he BETTER in the Pistol? Yes. Part of that is experience and part of that is because its simply a good strategic formation...and why they began to use it in the first place....same as Washington and Seattle.

    2) Gore had issues transitioning to the Read Option at first. Some of it also had to do with schedule down the stretch. Vernon had issues getting in sync with Kaep as well. While Crabs number took off like a rocket, the rest of the offense took some time to adapt.

    However, it was a completely different story when the playoffs started.

    Gore had 319 yards rushing in the playoffs, a 5.1 average and 4 TDs.

    Vernon had 254 yards and a TD in the playoffs.

    This is kinda one of my issues with the analysis of Kaep that I see on this site. The assumption here is that Kaep was a second year player and he was static....IE he was the exact same player in start #1 that he was in start #10. Only Russell Wilson gets the benefit of starting slow and improving throughout the year (which he did in a BIG way). Kaep ALSO improved dramatically as he got more experience. He was unable to connect with Vernon through most of the regular season. He wasn't just locked on to Crab as many suggest because he WAS throwing the ball to Vernon....he was just usually missing him. That all stopped come playoff time.

    Was the difference the Pistol? Maybe. Was it just an example of a QB and TE getting on the same page? Probably. It was probably BOTH.

    I'm not trying to say here that the Pistol wasn't beneficial. Of course it was. Thats the reason many teams are using it. I'm just sayin the assumption that he would have sucked without it is simply inaccurate.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:34 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    heyu123 wrote:Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.


    Well...you are partially right.

    It is Harbaugh/Roman.

    It is the Line.

    Its also Kaep tho. He is deadly accurate on passed longer than 15 yards (Highest completion % in the NFL). Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.


    Deadly accurate? He is at 50% when throwing 11-20 yards and 2 of 12 throwing 31+ yards. Sure, deadly accurate on passes from 21-30 yards, but he only had 19 such attempts. If he were actually "deadly accurate", I would think there would be more passing attempts.

    After watching every snap he took last season, I saw a lot of overthrown balls. His 21-30 yard passes were after staring down his first read until the guy was open and then gunning the ball to him. Not a whole lot of touch was needed. When touch was needed, he was not very accurate at all.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:13 pm
  • rideaducati wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    heyu123 wrote:Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.


    Well...you are partially right.

    It is Harbaugh/Roman.

    It is the Line.

    Its also Kaep tho. He is deadly accurate on passed longer than 15 yards (Highest completion % in the NFL). Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.


    Deadly accurate? He is at 50% when throwing 11-20 yards and 2 of 12 throwing 31+ yards. Sure, deadly accurate on passes from 21-30 yards, but he only had 19 such attempts. If he were actually "deadly accurate", I would think there would be more passing attempts.

    After watching every snap he took last season, I saw a lot of overthrown balls. His 21-30 yard passes were after staring down his first read until the guy was open and then gunning the ball to him. Not a whole lot of touch was needed. When touch was needed, he was not very accurate at all.


    Throws to Kyle Williams vs the Bears and Vernon Davis vs the Packers would disagree with you.

    Kaep had the highest completion % in the NFL of passes over 15 yards. His 8.3 yards per attempt would have been #1 in the NFL if he'd thrown enough to qualify in the regular season and when you add his playoff numbers that number balloons to 8.76.

    So yes....DEADLY accurate. He had some overthrows to Vernon Davis during the regular season, but the two were MUCH more in sync come playoff time. You also aren't accounting for drops. There was a site that did so and I wish I could find it. It placed Kaep #1 on those longer passes and Aaron Rodgers at #2. Wilson was high on the list as well.

    BTW, the numbers you are looking at are only seven starts. Russell Wilson was only 12 of 27 of passes between 21-30 yards for an ENTIRE SEASON. If you extrapolate Kaeps numbers during the regular season over 16 games, you get 34 of 43....and he was even better in the playoffs.

    Final detail....Kaep has only played 10 freakin' games. Only 7 of them are listed in the stats you are quoting. What did Wilsons stats look like after just 7 starts? What were his completion percentages over that time? I'd also love to see what Kaeps passing numbers by distance look like in the playoffs. My bet is MUCH BETTER. My intent here isn't to start a Wilson Kaep war....my point is that you all know how much Wilson improved with each and every start. By the end of the year he was insane. Kaep was just reaching that level of experience come playoff time.

    So...essentially.....DEADLY ACCURATE. I stand by it. Can he improve on shorter passes and the really deep pass? Yes....but why throw 40+ yards when you complete a pass between 20 and 30 yards 75% of the time?
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:11 pm
  • You're in for a terrible let down.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:45 pm
  • We will see if any of this is true soon enough. Personally? I think Keapernick is in for a letdown, not through any fault of his but because of the state of his surrounding cast.
    43-8...it's all about that action boss....
    next man up.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:01 pm
  • rideaducati wrote:You're in for a terrible let down.


    ...says a guy with zero comeback. That's all you got? Pitiful.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:32 pm
  • I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:39 pm
  • mretrade wrote:I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.


    Yes, I would agree, your offense looked quite buttoned up in (Kaep's only?) drive... I was hoping the Hawks 1st team O would look similarly polished but, oh boy, not so much... We have got a ways to go from preseason week 1 to any more discussion about championship aspirations based on that, less than confidence inspiring outing by the 1st team O....

    Ugh....
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:29 pm
  • 13thMan wrote:
    mretrade wrote:I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.


    Yes, I would agree, your offense looked quite buttoned up in (Kaep's only?) drive... I was hoping the Hawks 1st team O would look similarly polished but, oh boy, not so much... We have got a ways to go from preseason week 1 to any more discussion about championship aspirations based on that, less than confidence inspiring outing by the 1st team O....

    Ugh....


    I wouldn't read anything into the preseason.

    In the niner Super Bowl years they typically sucked in Preseason. If I recall correctly, I think the Panthers went 4-0 in the preseason before their 0-16 season. OCs and DCs aren't really gameplanning.

    Seattle will be just fine. Damnit. :)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:41 pm
  • you mean the Lions right? they did go 4-0.

    Seahawks could easily go 4-0 because of the talent we have at depth, first few drives of preseason are gonna suck this year, its almost like no one interesting is fighting for a job on the first units anymore, aside from a few spots on the OL and at LB, second half is where its at for us this year.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:44 pm
  • Throwdown wrote:you mean the Lions right? they did go 4-0.

    Seahawks could easily go 4-0 because of the talent we have at depth, first few drives of preseason are gonna suck this year, its almost like no one interesting is fighting for a job on the first units anymore, aside from a few spots on the OL and at LB, second half is where its at for us this year.


    I meant the Panthers...and they may have been 1-15. I can't remember.

    The fact tho that we are talking about 2 different teams that did it tho kinda makes my point. Precious little can be learned from the preseason outside of the performances of specific players in specific matchups.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:34 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Throwdown wrote:you mean the Lions right? they did go 4-0.

    Seahawks could easily go 4-0 because of the talent we have at depth, first few drives of preseason are gonna suck this year, its almost like no one interesting is fighting for a job on the first units anymore, aside from a few spots on the OL and at LB, second half is where its at for us this year.


    I meant the Panthers...and they may have been 1-15. I can't remember.

    The fact tho that we are talking about 2 different teams that did it tho kinda makes my point. Precious little can be learned from the preseason outside of the performances of specific players in specific matchups.

    Only one team has ever gone 0-16. Lions.
    This is what happens when Niner fans try to talk about the rest of the league.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:57 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    Throwdown wrote:you mean the Lions right? they did go 4-0.

    Seahawks could easily go 4-0 because of the talent we have at depth, first few drives of preseason are gonna suck this year, its almost like no one interesting is fighting for a job on the first units anymore, aside from a few spots on the OL and at LB, second half is where its at for us this year.


    I meant the Panthers...and they may have been 1-15. I can't remember.

    The fact tho that we are talking about 2 different teams that did it tho kinda makes my point. Precious little can be learned from the preseason outside of the performances of specific players in specific matchups.

    Only one team has ever gone 0-16. Lions.
    This is what happens when Niner fans try to talk about the rest of the league.


    oh come on now. Lets be fair now and quit with the cheap shots. I was making a point about the preseason, not attempting a history lesson about the Panthers or Lions. I simply mixed them up. I was telling a SEAHAWK fan not to stress the performance of the first team O.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:02 am
  • So much for Kaep being "DEADLY ACCURATE". He's still overthrowing his wr when touch is needed.
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