Read Option : the 49ers version

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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:28 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    12th_Bob wrote:Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.

    I wouldn't bet on it. Kaepernick barely targeted Davis throughout the regular season once he was the starter.

    Marvin49 wrote:Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.

    Not really. Alex Smith attempted deep passes (defined as any pass attempt in the air 20+ yards) on 8.7% of his throws. Kaepernick attempted them 15.1% of the time. Almost twice as many.


    Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    The offense was the same....the QBs decision making within the framework of that offense was completely different.

    Alex was far less accurate on longer passes and checked down ALOT more often to shorter passes. Stacking the line was effective against the 49ers because Alex usually wouldn't throw deep down the field to take advantage of the D stacking the box.

    Kaep made teams pay for stacking the box because he was much more willing to throw deeper passes and far more accurate when doing so.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:33 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:40 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:57 pm
  • The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:03 pm
  • rlkats wrote:The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)

    Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:13 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Yeah, but wasn't Smith off the field for that?
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:17 pm
  • I agree Scott. When Harbaugh speaks to reporters I tune him out. I dont know when he i F in with them or serious. Roland ya Smith was of the field for that.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:43 pm
  • The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

    Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:12 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

    47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

    Marvin49 wrote:The offense was the same

    Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:19 pm
  • heyu123 wrote:The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

    Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.


    While its true that they incorporated the Pistol package more as Kaep became the starter, The 49ers had just as many deep routes with Alex than with Kaep. The difference is that Alex wouldn't throw the ball and would check down. Kaep would make the throw.

    It was the same offense. Cutting edge RUN BASED offense with multiple shifts at the line and fairly easy reads in the passing game. Just about every type of run play you can think of and a few you can't. That run game is what made play action so deadly and is a big reason why Kaep was almost always able to find player open down the field. He is a very accurate thrower of those passes, but the scheme was very good at creating those matchups.

    Alex had those same advantages...in fact the 49ers rush offense was BETTER with Alex than with Kaep....but Alex just wouldn't take those chances. That's why his passes were always so short and why he rarely turned the ball over.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:21 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,


    INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:26 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,


    INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.


    lol. :D
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:06 pm
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.

    No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.

    You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
    Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
    Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:27 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.


    Correct.

    The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.

    You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
    Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
    Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).


    I never said they hadn't run it before....but they didn't run it nearly as often in the regular season as in the post season.

    I know the diff between the Pistol and the Read Option.

    As for what I'm talking about specifically, the 49ers ran very few read option plays in the weeks before the playoffs. If you don't believe me about the Pack being surprised, watch the interviews with Packer players after the game...specifically, Clay Matthews.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:29 pm
  • Matthews being obtuse doesn't mean you're right. ;)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:35 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Matthews being obtuse doesn't mean you're right. ;)


    :D
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:01 am
  • With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:05 am
  • sutz wrote:With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)

    It's not even close, either. The other teams that can afford to do that depend on their pass rush to generate pressure on the QB. On downs where they don't, they are at big risk for giving up a big play.

    I firmly believe that whenever we can get a GOOD, solid, consistent pass rush going, we are going to see the Legion of Boom perform at a whole new level.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:12 am
  • sutz wrote:With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)

    +1
    Agreed. That is how you beat it edge pressure , jam the TE. Safety's or CB blitz gap as needed. Which coincidently is one of the things Winfield is superb at.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:55 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    mr.stlouis wrote:Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:


    Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

    The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

    So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)


    They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:51 pm
  • I'm puzzled. There's several niner fans, a Ram fan, roland....and it's intelligent reading?!? Okay, I've obviously been reading this forum too much cuz I'm having some wierd dream. When I wake up this thread will certainly not really be here.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:25 pm
  • Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:39 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.

    :D all in jest, Roland, all in jest. Especially the intelligent part {j/k}
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:24 pm
  • No!

    Image
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:54 pm
  • What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

    The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:54 am
  • KCHawkGirl wrote:What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

    The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.


    They run a far different version. To my eye, Kaepernick makes his option decisions far faster than RW. They run formations with up to 4 runners in a diamond formation (including Kaep). They run the pistol with heavy sets. They run that look with a 300 pound DT as a lead blocker. The pistol in particular is a staple for Kaepernick, without it he loses a lot of his advantages.

    They had Kaepernick taking pistol formation snaps in pretty much every game, even the ones Alex started. Kaepernick ran the pistol at Nevada to the tune of about 14,000 total yards.

    Why is it more dangerous? Ask the Packers. They had a piss poor plan and it killed them.

    Ours is a changeup. Russell never ran it before last year. Russell holds the ball til the last second, there were a lot of precarious moments as he waited a defensive end out, nearly resulting in a half dozen fumbles. Still, fail to plan for it and die, just ask the Bears and Bills.

    Who had what first is immaterial, as are any comparisons to who runs the WCO better.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:37 am
  • I do agree that we use it as a change up and Wilson is far less likely to keep the ball preferring to either pass out of it or hand off far more than Kaepernick. And Green Bay? You couldn't have a gameplan any worse than what they did. I am sure that isn't going to happen again though, they had all offseason and tape to study and surely they will have figured out a better way to go.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:10 am
  • You asked for the differences, I gave them. You couldn't have a worse gameplan for stopping Wilson than the Bills did, as well. Kaepernick passes from th epistol plenty, in fact it is his greatest strength as a passer, allowing him to play action without taking his eyes off the defense.

    In fact, I would argue that for Kaepernick in particular, the Pistol is vital to his success. You know how the read option freezes a DE? The play action from the pistol does the same thing to a peeking linebacker or DB, but unlike a traditional play action where the QB has his back to the D and has to re-establish eye contact. Kaepernick gets to watch it all unfold, and this is the pass that Kaepernick is making his big plays on as of now. Also, the debate about Kaep being a one read guy is really centered around this play, it is the look he most consistently makes that 2nd stacked read from. If the safety moves down, he goes over the top to the deep route, if the safety stays deep, he drops it in over the LB on the shorter route runner, and if both look covered he has an even shorter option. That isn't exact, but it should give you an idea of what they are doing passing from the pistol. From under center play action, Kaepernick was far more likely to make the one read and run if it was not there. Point is, that pistol pass set lets him treat the safety just like he treats the DE on a running read option, while never taking his eyes off the defense.

    Seriously, watch a game where you just observe the way a QB does things differently when he never takes his eyes off the D vs a true play action.

    Our passes from the pistol were not that complex. It is primarily one target (like the pass to Rice to win the CHI game). Which is to be expected, like noted, Wilson was new to RO and pistol. Conversely, Wilson was far more likely to make multiple reads from play action, which makes sense considering his background in college.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:11 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:The 49'ers line is scary good, as we found out last year at their place.

    The good news is that I think RW is a far more well rounded QB than Kaepernicknack. Teams are REALLY going to load up the box to stop the niners run game and read option, and force Kaepernick to beat them in the air. IMO this is the main reason I picked the Hawks to win the West. Wilson > Kaep.


    Statistically this isn't true. It's more divided and depends on the criteria you're looking at. Colin DID beat teams through the air. Repeatedly. Wilson is statistically better at passing out of the pocket than Kaep, but Kaep is statistically better in the pocket (numbers don't lie my friend). Why people think Colin can't pass the ball from the pocket is astounding to me. Here are what the FACTS say:


    Total QBR in the pocket:

    Colin Kaepernick: 83.0

    Russell Wilson: 77.0


    Both are good in the pocket, but Kaepernick is better.


    Now, contrary to popular belief by nearly everyone, Wilson is much better passing OUTSIDE the pocket (in fact he's a freaking stud at it).

    Total QBR OUTSIDE the pocket:

    Russell Wilson: 62.5

    Colin Kaepernick: 15.6



    The FACTS say that Colin is better in the pocket, but Wilson is MUCH better outside of it. You might think that puts Russell over the edge. I'd say no, since Total QBR combined gives Colin the edge.

    Colin: 76.8
    Russell: 69.6 *(note that both of these are PRO BOWL caliber numbers)

    So why does Colin get the NUMERICAL edge if Russell is WAY better at passing from outside the pocket? Simple: quarterbacks in the NFL have to be able to pass in the pocket MUCH more often. BOTH of these guys are very good at it. I still say overall the numbers indicate that this is a wash (since there are non-quantifiable factors). You can't really say who is better based on the objective facts. Only subjectivity can determine a victor.



    Scottemojo wrote:
    E.C. Laloosh wrote:Good read. So did SEA avoid succumbing to this o-line in week 16 because we got out in front so quickly and didn't have to deal with as much run/option play?

    SF started the game a bit cute with passing. They tried to set up the line trap, but it didn't work. I think communication was too difficult for them that game.

    Truth is, no option QB had a great game vs the Hawks last year. Not Kaep, Newton, or RGIII (though he started strong for sure). Those offenses combined for 30 points total.


    Kaepernick is no more an option QB than Wilson is. See above:



    Scottemojo wrote:
    rlkats wrote:The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)

    Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.


    That started against Green Bay. For the most part, it was the same formations. And I know you disagree, but tell me: did you watch every single 49er game last year? I didn't think so. Fact is neither the Pistol formation nor the read-option were used very much prior to the playoffs. MAYBE twice a game, and that's just an average.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:39 am
  • rideaducati wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    mr.stlouis wrote:Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:


    Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

    The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

    So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)


    They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!


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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:47 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:You asked for the differences, I gave them. You couldn't have a worse gameplan for stopping Wilson than the Bills did, as well. Kaepernick passes from th epistol plenty, in fact it is his greatest strength as a passer, allowing him to play action without taking his eyes off the defense.

    In fact, I would argue that for Kaepernick in particular, the Pistol is vital to his success. You know how the read option freezes a DE? The play action from the pistol does the same thing to a peeking linebacker or DB, but unlike a traditional play action where the QB has his back to the D and has to re-establish eye contact. Kaepernick gets to watch it all unfold, and this is the pass that Kaepernick is making his big plays on as of now. Also, the debate about Kaep being a one read guy is really centered around this play, it is the look he most consistently makes that 2nd stacked read from. If the safety moves down, he goes over the top to the deep route, if the safety stays deep, he drops it in over the LB on the shorter route runner, and if both look covered he has an even shorter option. That isn't exact, but it should give you an idea of what they are doing passing from the pistol. From under center play action, Kaepernick was far more likely to make the one read and run if it was not there. Point is, that pistol pass set lets him treat the safety just like he treats the DE on a running read option, while never taking his eyes off the defense.

    Seriously, watch a game where you just observe the way a QB does things differently when he never takes his eyes off the D vs a true play action.

    Our passes from the pistol were not that complex. It is primarily one target (like the pass to Rice to win the CHI game). Which is to be expected, like noted, Wilson was new to RO and pistol. Conversely, Wilson was far more likely to make multiple reads from play action, which makes sense considering his background in college.


    I agree with most of this. The only part I would disagree with is the comment that the Pistol being vital to his success....that is if you are saying he couldn't be successful without it. The problem with that reasoning is that he had alot of success before the 49ers started running the Pistol on a large % of his plays.

    Is he better out of the Pistol? Absolutely. I thinks that's a function of 1) having ALOT more experience in that offense, and 2) Really good play design out of that formation (most of which you have detailed yourself) creating easy reads and wide open recievers. I think Kaep has all the tools to be an incredible QB, but I also recognize that his OC and HC have done a great job in putting him in positions to succeed. He is STILL a raw player. He was nowhere near as polished as Wilson coming out of college.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:39 pm
  • @5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

    At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success. Your team loses their run advantage from the gun, and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.

    When I watch a Niners game, the first 15 plays on offense are so interesting. Harbaugh tries to give every look, even the ones Kaepernick is not good at, to the defense. He will do traditional play action, drop back from center, pistol pass, pistol pass with a full eyes off D play fake, pistol handoff, pistol option read, full gun pass and run. I imagine in those early snaps they are looking at the 2 or 3 seconds after snap pictures to see how the D-end, safeties, and middle backers are reacting differently to all the variety of looks to see what they can exploit. As of yet in his young career, it's between the numbers that Kaepernick is at his best, and it's the defenders between the numbers that are doing the most staring at Kaepernick.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:16 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

    At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success. Your team loses their run advantage from the gun, and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.

    When I watch a Niners game, the first 15 plays on offense are so interesting. Harbaugh tries to give every look, even the ones Kaepernick is not good at, to the defense. He will do traditional play action, drop back from center, pistol pass, pistol pass with a full eyes off D play fake, pistol handoff, pistol option read, full gun pass and run. I imagine in those early snaps they are looking at the 2 or 3 seconds after snap pictures to see how the D-end, safeties, and middle backers are reacting differently to all the variety of looks to see what they can exploit. As of yet in his young career, it's between the numbers that Kaepernick is at his best, and it's the defenders between the numbers that are doing the most staring at Kaepernick.


    I think we are watching an interview with Kaep talking to Marshall Faulk and running wild with it a bit. He explained the advantages of the Pistol and everyone seems to read into that what they want to believe...IE, he can't take his eyes off the D. As for what he's "admitted", he says he needs to improve at EVERYTHING. He works hard in the weight room. He works hard on the track. He works hard in the classroom. When anyone has asked him what he's trying to improve on this year, he always answers "Everything".

    The Pistol is an advantage because it gives him an extra fraction of a second to keep his eyes on the read (while also being able to run power), but that doesn't mean he's incapable of turning his back to the D on a hard play fake and being successful. Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to sell him as a perfect QB who doesn't need any work. He still is raw in some aspects of his game and the OC has put him in some very good positions to succeed...I'm just sayin' its not all about the pistol.

    He ran MANY plays from conventional sets and did just fine...particularly in the regular season.

    Is he better in the Pistol? Yes. He has much more experience there and the set itself is pretty damn good which is why its making the rounds through college football and the NFL. My only issue is the assumption that Kaep would have been screwed without it. I think that's inaccurate.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:41 am
  • Here is my take on stopping the read option:

    A big part of last year was the rebirth of the pistol/read option offense orchestrated by a new class of QBs in the league in RGIII, Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, and to a lesser extent Cam Newton.

    Here are a few good articles on stopping the read option:
    http://mmqb.si.com/2013/07/26/derek-mas ... ad-option/
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1638 ... ead-option

    I know the 2nd one is a Bleacher Report, but it is still a very good read.

    Basically, it boils down to two things- discipline and preventing the "read"

    Discipline is in line with the "gap" assignments for the interior line and outside containment by the DEs and linebackers - this is a coaching objective

    How do you prevent the read? Two ways- interior pressure and as the Bleacher Report article states, do what is called a "scrap exchange", which is basically putting an OLB on assignment to the QB, preferably a quick OLB that has fast closing speed.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

    Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.


    I remember watching that game and wondering if Green Bay thought Alex Smith was still starting. Kaepernick got all of the attention, but I have never seen a team get so badly outcoached as the Packers were that night.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:12 pm
  • The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:21 pm
  • SilkMonkey wrote:The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.


    Kaepernick promised Dom Capers he'd do a nude photo shoot if he had his defense block FOR Kaepernick instead of against him.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:12 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    SilkMonkey wrote:The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.


    Kaepernick promised Dom Capers he'd do a nude photo shoot if he had his defense block FOR Kaepernick instead of against him.


    Sounds like someone has a crush on Kaep.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:00 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

    At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success.


    Ah, so whence came the success in his regular season starts in which the Pistol formation was used maybe two or three times per game? I am quite sure you barely watched any 49ers games last year except in the postseason and against Seattle. You pretty much prove it with this.

    Scottemojo wrote: Your team loses their run advantage from the gun,

    Meanwhile Kaep was tremendously successful passing from the regular gun.

    Scottemojo wrote: and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.


    But you misunderstand them. Kaep is a perfectionist. His "weakest" areas AREN'T weaknesses in the sense you think. Evidence? Watch some regular season 49er games in which Kaepernick did OUTSTANDING in play action passes from traditional formations. Case in point (took two seconds on youtube because unlike you I watched every 49er game and know where to look):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iMLA1_q2xw&t=1m34s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=3m21s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=4m58s

    Watch how he launches the ball with a defender in his face, too (slightly different topic, but still). Look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=2m52s



    I guess what I'm saying is that you're messing up the relative scales. Kaepernick is really, REALLY good at the read-option and exploiting the Pistol formation. By necessity that means he is BETTER at that then play-action from under center. IT DOES NOT FOLLOW then that Kaepernick is bad at play-action from under center. In fact, he isn't. He's pretty decent at it. Not the best, but good.

    You might also think that because he is (let's face it) the VERY BEST QB in the NFL in the Pistol that he therefore can't pass from under center. False. He is actually extremely good at passing on 3 and 5 step drops. Much better than Alex Smith ever has been.






    Here are weaknesses 49ER fans, fans who have watched every game (unlike you), would list (and I'll throw in Wilson comparisons, too):

    1. Unlike Wilson, when things go terribly wrong Colin has had trouble improvising. When the snap is low, for example, he has thrown picks or fumbled (case in point, bad snap against the Saints led to his first interception; low snaps against New England led to fumbles).

    2. Unlike Wilson, when timing is messed up Kaep has a tendency to force things that aren't there (case in point, pick six against Green Bay).

    3. Awkward delivery.

    4. Unlike Wilson, he throws risky passes. Often times his arm strength is 96-97 Favre-like, so it works, but it makes us 49er fans uneasy at times the way he trusts his arm so much in tight coverage.


    But play-action under center? He might consider it one of his weak spots, but he has NOT struggled with that in games. He has done as well or better than Alex Smith did at that.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:55 am
  • He lines up in a short gun (about 4 yards back) with a single back behind him AKA pistol a lot more than 2-3 times per game. I did watch them all 49er games. He also lines up in the gun (about 5 yards back) a ton.

    If there was a formation he rarely lines up in, it would be under center. In fact, in the SB they pretty much abandoned all but the pistol and the gun. We can argue about that one yard if you wish, my point is that he is a far better passing QB when his drop back and play fake allow him to keep his eyes on the defense.

    Why do you think they call traditional play action only about 3 or 4 times per game for him? Because he is so good at it?

    Also curious, while Kaep excels at the pistol, Gore suffered terribly from the formation.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:54 am
  • 5_Golden_Rings wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

    At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success.


    Ah, so whence came the success in his regular season starts in which the Pistol formation was used maybe two or three times per game? I am quite sure you barely watched any 49ers games last year except in the postseason and against Seattle. You pretty much prove it with this.

    Scottemojo wrote: Your team loses their run advantage from the gun,

    Meanwhile Kaep was tremendously successful passing from the regular gun.

    Scottemojo wrote: and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.


    But you misunderstand them. Kaep is a perfectionist. His "weakest" areas AREN'T weaknesses in the sense you think. Evidence? Watch some regular season 49er games in which Kaepernick did OUTSTANDING in play action passes from traditional formations. Case in point (took two seconds on youtube because unlike you I watched every 49er game and know where to look):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iMLA1_q2xw&t=1m34s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=3m21s
    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=4m58s

    Watch how he launches the ball with a defender in his face, too (slightly different topic, but still). Look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=2m52s



    I guess what I'm saying is that you're messing up the relative scales. Kaepernick is really, REALLY good at the read-option and exploiting the Pistol formation. By necessity that means he is BETTER at that then play-action from under center. IT DOES NOT FOLLOW then that Kaepernick is bad at play-action from under center. In fact, he isn't. He's pretty decent at it. Not the best, but good.

    You might also think that because he is (let's face it) the VERY BEST QB in the NFL in the Pistol that he therefore can't pass from under center. False. He is actually extremely good at passing on 3 and 5 step drops. Much better than Alex Smith ever has been.






    Here are weaknesses 49ER fans, fans who have watched every game (unlike you), would list (and I'll throw in Wilson comparisons, too):

    1. Unlike Wilson, when things go terribly wrong Colin has had trouble improvising. When the snap is low, for example, he has thrown picks or fumbled (case in point, bad snap against the Saints led to his first interception; low snaps against New England led to fumbles).

    2. Unlike Wilson, when timing is messed up Kaep has a tendency to force things that aren't there (case in point, pick six against Green Bay).

    3. Awkward delivery.

    4. Unlike Wilson, he throws risky passes. Often times his arm strength is 96-97 Favre-like, so it works, but it makes us 49er fans uneasy at times the way he trusts his arm so much in tight coverage.


    But play-action under center? He might consider it one of his weak spots, but he has NOT struggled with that in games. He has done as well or better than Alex Smith did at that.


    Ug...hard to watch that video. I created the entire first part (regular season stuff) to the Batman score in HD....and the NFL had youtube take it down. Hard to watch it with that crap music and low quality.

    BTW...not directly pertinent, but a great mythbuster on Kaep.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/ ... kaepernick
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:09 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:He lines up in a short gun (about 4 yards back) with a single back behind him AKA pistol a lot more than 2-3 times per game. I did watch them all 49er games. He also lines up in the gun (about 5 yards back) a ton.

    If there was a formation he rarely lines up in, it would be under center. In fact, in the SB they pretty much abandoned all but the pistol and the gun. We can argue about that one yard if you wish, my point is that he is a far better passing QB when his drop back and play fake allow him to keep his eyes on the defense.

    Why do you think they call traditional play action only about 3 or 4 times per game for him? Because he is so good at it?

    Also curious, while Kaep excels at the pistol, Gore suffered terribly from the formation.


    A couple things....

    1) I would agree they ran it more than 2 or 3 times, but it was nowhere near as much as you are saying. They didn't really roll out a steady diet of it until the playoffs. You are trying to make the case that he couldn't play without the pistol. That is simply incorrect. He played a number of games from the gun and under center and he was functional in both formations. Is he BETTER in the Pistol? Yes. Part of that is experience and part of that is because its simply a good strategic formation...and why they began to use it in the first place....same as Washington and Seattle.

    2) Gore had issues transitioning to the Read Option at first. Some of it also had to do with schedule down the stretch. Vernon had issues getting in sync with Kaep as well. While Crabs number took off like a rocket, the rest of the offense took some time to adapt.

    However, it was a completely different story when the playoffs started.

    Gore had 319 yards rushing in the playoffs, a 5.1 average and 4 TDs.

    Vernon had 254 yards and a TD in the playoffs.

    This is kinda one of my issues with the analysis of Kaep that I see on this site. The assumption here is that Kaep was a second year player and he was static....IE he was the exact same player in start #1 that he was in start #10. Only Russell Wilson gets the benefit of starting slow and improving throughout the year (which he did in a BIG way). Kaep ALSO improved dramatically as he got more experience. He was unable to connect with Vernon through most of the regular season. He wasn't just locked on to Crab as many suggest because he WAS throwing the ball to Vernon....he was just usually missing him. That all stopped come playoff time.

    Was the difference the Pistol? Maybe. Was it just an example of a QB and TE getting on the same page? Probably. It was probably BOTH.

    I'm not trying to say here that the Pistol wasn't beneficial. Of course it was. Thats the reason many teams are using it. I'm just sayin the assumption that he would have sucked without it is simply inaccurate.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:34 am
  • Marvin49 wrote:
    heyu123 wrote:Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.


    Well...you are partially right.

    It is Harbaugh/Roman.

    It is the Line.

    Its also Kaep tho. He is deadly accurate on passed longer than 15 yards (Highest completion % in the NFL). Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.


    Deadly accurate? He is at 50% when throwing 11-20 yards and 2 of 12 throwing 31+ yards. Sure, deadly accurate on passes from 21-30 yards, but he only had 19 such attempts. If he were actually "deadly accurate", I would think there would be more passing attempts.

    After watching every snap he took last season, I saw a lot of overthrown balls. His 21-30 yard passes were after staring down his first read until the guy was open and then gunning the ball to him. Not a whole lot of touch was needed. When touch was needed, he was not very accurate at all.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:13 pm
  • rideaducati wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:
    heyu123 wrote:Nice article. Nothing too extraordinarily perceptive about it, but it does illustrate the biggest reason for the niners success. Its not kaep or any skill guys, its those lineman and harbaugh.

    That's why the niners offense and kaep will never be figured out by the league as a whole. You can point to isolated examples, but not only do you need to stop kaepernick you also need to be able to beat that offensive line. And then on top of it out think and scheme harbaugh.

    Not many teams have the intelligence or personnel to do that. So because of that kaep and this offense will continue to steam roll people. Even without crabtree.


    Well...you are partially right.

    It is Harbaugh/Roman.

    It is the Line.

    Its also Kaep tho. He is deadly accurate on passed longer than 15 yards (Highest completion % in the NFL). Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.


    Deadly accurate? He is at 50% when throwing 11-20 yards and 2 of 12 throwing 31+ yards. Sure, deadly accurate on passes from 21-30 yards, but he only had 19 such attempts. If he were actually "deadly accurate", I would think there would be more passing attempts.

    After watching every snap he took last season, I saw a lot of overthrown balls. His 21-30 yard passes were after staring down his first read until the guy was open and then gunning the ball to him. Not a whole lot of touch was needed. When touch was needed, he was not very accurate at all.


    Throws to Kyle Williams vs the Bears and Vernon Davis vs the Packers would disagree with you.

    Kaep had the highest completion % in the NFL of passes over 15 yards. His 8.3 yards per attempt would have been #1 in the NFL if he'd thrown enough to qualify in the regular season and when you add his playoff numbers that number balloons to 8.76.

    So yes....DEADLY accurate. He had some overthrows to Vernon Davis during the regular season, but the two were MUCH more in sync come playoff time. You also aren't accounting for drops. There was a site that did so and I wish I could find it. It placed Kaep #1 on those longer passes and Aaron Rodgers at #2. Wilson was high on the list as well.

    BTW, the numbers you are looking at are only seven starts. Russell Wilson was only 12 of 27 of passes between 21-30 yards for an ENTIRE SEASON. If you extrapolate Kaeps numbers during the regular season over 16 games, you get 34 of 43....and he was even better in the playoffs.

    Final detail....Kaep has only played 10 freakin' games. Only 7 of them are listed in the stats you are quoting. What did Wilsons stats look like after just 7 starts? What were his completion percentages over that time? I'd also love to see what Kaeps passing numbers by distance look like in the playoffs. My bet is MUCH BETTER. My intent here isn't to start a Wilson Kaep war....my point is that you all know how much Wilson improved with each and every start. By the end of the year he was insane. Kaep was just reaching that level of experience come playoff time.

    So...essentially.....DEADLY ACCURATE. I stand by it. Can he improve on shorter passes and the really deep pass? Yes....but why throw 40+ yards when you complete a pass between 20 and 30 yards 75% of the time?
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:11 pm
  • You're in for a terrible let down.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:45 pm
  • We will see if any of this is true soon enough. Personally? I think Keapernick is in for a letdown, not through any fault of his but because of the state of his surrounding cast.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:01 pm
  • rideaducati wrote:You're in for a terrible let down.


    ...says a guy with zero comeback. That's all you got? Pitiful.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:32 pm
  • I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:39 pm
  • mretrade wrote:I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.


    Yes, I would agree, your offense looked quite buttoned up in (Kaep's only?) drive... I was hoping the Hawks 1st team O would look similarly polished but, oh boy, not so much... We have got a ways to go from preseason week 1 to any more discussion about championship aspirations based on that, less than confidence inspiring outing by the 1st team O....

    Ugh....
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Re: Read Option : the 49ers version
Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:29 pm
  • 13thMan wrote:
    mretrade wrote:I know its only preseason but I was very pleased with how Kaepernick did in his first game off the superbowl loss. 4/4 and drove the offense right down field.


    Yes, I would agree, your offense looked quite buttoned up in (Kaep's only?) drive... I was hoping the Hawks 1st team O would look similarly polished but, oh boy, not so much... We have got a ways to go from preseason week 1 to any more discussion about championship aspirations based on that, less than confidence inspiring outing by the 1st team O....

    Ugh....


    I wouldn't read anything into the preseason.

    In the niner Super Bowl years they typically sucked in Preseason. If I recall correctly, I think the Panthers went 4-0 in the preseason before their 0-16 season. OCs and DCs aren't really gameplanning.

    Seattle will be just fine. Damnit. :)
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