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 Post subject: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:27 am 
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I've heard all this talk around the sports echo chamber (ESPN, sports radio) that since Geno fired his agent and was visibly dissapointed in the green room the first day of the draft, that this shows he is an individual that cannot be trusted with a leadership role as a QB. There was also an article on Profootball talk that he texted during initial meetings with teams, which I don't believe. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... the-draft/

I just wanted to go on the record saying that I don't believe the hype and I think that the media and NFL front offices have unfairly judged Smith. There appears to be a double-standard. I'm not saying that anyone is "racist" per se, but it seems like he, and Cam Newton before him, have been unfairly labled as trouble-makers, poor leaders, and bad attidude guys (at least Cam, though, had cheating problems in college, which was a legitimate red flag). I think that it is good to look at this from a different perspective: think of the white QBs that were whiny primodannas prior to and during the draft that were concensus "great leaders" and "sure-fire number one picks" that teams clammored over. I'm thinking about John Elway, who demanded to be traded from Baltimore before meeting with anyone--if Geno thinks he's too good to be left in the end of the first round, isn't Elway's belief that he's too good for Baltimore also a sign of "poor leadership"? Think about Eli Manning, who thought he was too good to play for the Chargers and demanded to be traded--again, no "poor leadership" label on him by NFL front offices. Looking stickly at the numbers, Geno smoked both Elway and Eli in his college stats. I just think that we, as a society, judge black QBs more harshly and label them as bad-attitude players more quickly than we do black QBs.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:40 am 
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I don't think it's racism at all. and he didn't slide because the NFL teams bought into anything except the player they scouted. Just like Wilson didn't fall becasue of being black, he fell because he was short.

The simple truth is that Geno is going from a pure college attack with Austin and Bailey to a Jets team that lacks weapons. Geno has an entourage. Geno skipped the senior bowl. Geno gave the "I will kick the ass of any team that skips me" speech like he had just seen 30 for 30. Geno has been putting up false bravado all spring. I don't care if he is green, he was faking confidence.

I can't speak for society, but I hated Mallett as a prospect too, thought he was a blame thrower and lacked accountability. Last I checked, he was white. Also, what do Elway and Eli have to do with Geno? Elway was right about the Colts, you know. Eli made the right choice too, the Giants are just a better organization than the Chargers. Who cares if Geno smoked their stats. So did Colt Brennan. And Colt McCoy.

I think Geno flops big time.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:35 am 
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Totally agree!

It's his agent's fault he wasn't drafted earlier? Really?

To me he's been reading his press clipping a bit too much and needs to learn some humility and shut his mouth. I can't think of a worse situation for him than the Jets who manage to eat their young ones as they deal with a cannibalistic and savagely unremitting media. In the QB room he and Sanchez will find getting to be tough.

I smell b-u-s-t. Thought he was defined by the last half of his season and while an uber athlete with a good arm seems lacking in QB sight and smarts.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:50 am 
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Bust, but more due to the franchise than the player.

I don't know enough about Smith's background, but I did hear some media soft shoe speak about maturity concerns in college. Follow that up with pouting in the green room, initially refusing to come back for day two, and then firing his agent and sure I see flags. A good franchise would help the player overcome these challenges. History says the Jets are not that type of franchise, but there's a new Front Office so who knows.

The Elway and Eli examples are actually reflections of the above. They both identified poorly run franchises that they didn't want to work for and bucked the system to avoid that scenario.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:00 am 
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His senior year: 42 TDs. Only 6 INTs. 71.2% completion percentage. QBR of 163.9. Those are darn good numbers and don't suggest that he's lacking in QB sight and smarts. He "may" be a bust, and he "may" have fired his agent for nafarious reasons. However, I would judge my agent harshly as well if he "gauranteed" a first round pick and I fell. Your perception of him is based on what you have heard from various news articles and talking heads--and its negative based on SPECULATION from talking heads--news articles, Twitter, ESPN, NFL network, and talk-show hosts need stuff to fill band width and air-time--they fill it with speculation. The takes on Geno are unfairly negative, without highlighting his excellent play on the field. I'll let his play on the feild be the judge of whether he's a good football player, and he seems to be one based on tape I've seen. Until he proves he can't cut it in the NFL, he's not a bust, and based on what I've seen, he should be successful if given the chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:24 am 
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Bust. The only reason he did so good was many of his passes were completed behind the line of scrimmage, and to 2 of the best receivers in this draft. Austin and Stedman carried him and they will make Sam look good too.

If you want to talk about stats, EJ Manuel was a better QB than Ponder at Florida State, and I believe he will show that in Buffalo. All he needs is NFL level coaching and he will kick ass for the Bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:56 am 
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aawolf wrote:
There appears to be a double-standard. I'm not saying that anyone is "racist" per se, but it seems like he, and Cam Newton before him, have been unfairly labled as trouble-makers, poor leaders, and bad attidude guys (at least Cam, though, had cheating problems in college, which was a legitimate red flag). I think that it is good to look at this from a different perspective: think of the white QBs that were whiny primodannas prior to and during the draft that were concensus "great leaders" and "sure-fire number one picks" that teams clammored over. I'm thinking about John Elway, who demanded to be traded from Baltimore before meeting with anyone--if Geno thinks he's too good to be left in the end of the first round, isn't Elway's belief that he's too good for Baltimore also a sign of "poor leadership"? Think about Eli Manning, who thought he was too good to play for the Chargers and demanded to be traded--again, no "poor leadership" label on him by NFL front offices. Looking stickly at the numbers, Geno smoked both Elway and Eli in his college stats. I just think that we, as a society, judge black QBs more harshly and label them as bad-attitude players more quickly than we do black QBs.


I don't agree. Cam was flagged as having character issues in college, and what has he shown since coming to the NFL? Poor leadership and awful sideline demeanor. He's been called out by his own teammates (e.g. Steve Smith) for pouting on the sidelines. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. White QBs aren't immune from the bad character label. This year, Tyler Bray was labeled a poor leader with bad work ethic and subsequently went undrafted despite having a NFL-quality arm. On the flip side, Russell Wilson had arguably the highest character scores in the history of the NFL draft, and now he's a hero in the city of Seattle. RGIII was also said to be a great leader coming out of college, and he appears to be just that at the pro level as well.

The Elway and Eli situations aren't really relevant. First, they don't say anything about either's ability to lead a football team. Second, those were isolated situations that happened in a different era where months of haggling with the #1 overall pick was basically the norm in the NFL.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:42 am 
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DavidSeven wrote:
aawolf wrote:
There appears to be a double-standard. I'm not saying that anyone is "racist" per se, but it seems like he, and Cam Newton before him, have been unfairly labled as trouble-makers, poor leaders, and bad attidude guys (at least Cam, though, had cheating problems in college, which was a legitimate red flag). I think that it is good to look at this from a different perspective: think of the white QBs that were whiny primodannas prior to and during the draft that were concensus "great leaders" and "sure-fire number one picks" that teams clammored over. I'm thinking about John Elway, who demanded to be traded from Baltimore before meeting with anyone--if Geno thinks he's too good to be left in the end of the first round, isn't Elway's belief that he's too good for Baltimore also a sign of "poor leadership"? Think about Eli Manning, who thought he was too good to play for the Chargers and demanded to be traded--again, no "poor leadership" label on him by NFL front offices. Looking stickly at the numbers, Geno smoked both Elway and Eli in his college stats. I just think that we, as a society, judge black QBs more harshly and label them as bad-attitude players more quickly than we do black QBs.


I don't agree. Cam was flagged as having character issues in college, and what has he shown since coming to the NFL? Poor leadership and awful sideline demeanor. He's been called out by his own teammates (e.g. Steve Smith) for pouting on the sidelines. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. White QBs aren't immune from the bad character label. This year, Tyler Bray was labeled a poor leader with bad work ethic and subsequently went undrafted despite having a NFL-quality arm. On the flip side, Russell Wilson had arguably the highest character scores in the history of the NFL draft, and now he's a hero in the city of Seattle. RGIII was also said to be a great leader coming out of college, and he appears to be just that at the pro level as well.

The Elway and Eli situations aren't really relevant. First, they don't say anything about either's ability to lead a football team. Second, those were isolated situations that happened in a different era where months of haggling with the #1 overall pick was basically the norm in the NFL.


From my perspective, the poutiest douche in the NFL is Jay Cutler, so I agree that white guys aren't immune from the label. I'll also agree that Cam has proven to be down-and-out alot late in games and has not proven to be the type to hold his head up when the going gets tough and couldn't get enough first downs to finish games (see the 5 fourth quarter meltowns where the Panthers had the lead going into the fourth last year). While these labels may have been deserved from their play in the NFL, Smith has not played a snap in the NFL yet. Thus, I think these labels have been unfairly thrust upon him prematurely. I think Tyler Bray fell, not because of his attitude, but because he underperformed given the talent around him last year at Tennessee--he was much more inconsistant than Geno.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:18 am 
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First off, let me say I respect your opinion OP but I have to disagree with it.

To begin with, this sounds pretty familiar to the talk about Ryan Mallett.

Mallett, a good QB on the field (and white, btw), was rumored and accused by fans and the media of heavy drug use, a self-centered attitude, and questionable leadership.

Some proposed there was truth to these reports, but fans of his on the field talents quickly defended his reputation, suggesting it was media speculation and without proof. Turns out teams had the same causes of concern (or facts on the matter) as multiple teams passed on Mallett and he dropped into the 3rd round.

And now with Geno, it's the same fanboy, close-minded attitude in that the media is "speculating" to create news (no matter how much proof is given), and, oh yeah, thats play the "it's because he's black" argument, too (which makes no sense for this particular draft. In those same articles "speculating" that Smith fell because of his poor leadership skills, they "speculate" that EJ Manuel was selected so high, because of his leadership skills! See? How can that be if the media is unfairly portraying black QBs?)

I think the truth lies in how much we want to believe in the college prospects we've loved watching the past few years. We make excuses for our favorite players to protect them and our opinions instead of admitting that maybe the media (and teams) knows something we don't. Maybe we got it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:29 am 
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If I were a GM and drafted a QB in the 1st round and he sat out, demanding to be traded, I'd be sorely tempted to make that petulant child sit for the full four years on the bench as a lesson.

I do not and never will agree with what Eli and Elway did.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:34 am 
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aawolf wrote:
From my perspective, the poutiest douche in the NFL is Jay Cutler, so I agree that white guys aren't immune from the label. I'll also agree that Cam has proven to be down-and-out alot late in games and has not proven to be the type to hold his head up when the going gets tough and couldn't get enough first downs to finish games (see the 5 fourth quarter meltowns where the Panthers had the lead going into the fourth last year). While these labels may have been deserved from their play in the NFL, Smith has not played a snap in the NFL yet. Thus, I think these labels have been unfairly thrust upon him prematurely. I think Tyler Bray fell, not because of his attitude, but because he underperformed given the talent around him last year at Tennessee--he was much more inconsistant than Geno.


To be fair, I do think the media is being a little unfair to Geno, but I think that's more a product of him being a target for the NY media now and a member of the Jets circus. Sanchez is repeatedly killed by the press, and Tebow, one of the best character guys in the league, was slandered as well. Remember those "reports" that he refused to play at the end of last season.

That being said, I don't think Geno is a great pro prospect with or without character issues. As someone mentioned, his numbers were inflated by playing with dynamic playmakers. Nearly a third of his passes were screens, and his completion percentage under center was pretty awful.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:45 am 
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Really hard to say. I was not that high on him coming out, let's see what coaching can do. He reads slow and seems to get happy feet.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:04 pm 
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I will never understand why anyone uses college stats to argue how good a player will be in the NFL. Haven't we all seen plenty of great college QBs flop in the NFL, while some mediocre college QBs actually succeeded?


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Spounge84 wrote:
I will never understand why anyone uses college stats to argue how good a player will be in the NFL. Haven't we all seen plenty of great college QBs flop in the NFL, while some mediocre college QBs actually succeeded?

He's got the largest nostrils. That has has to count for something. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:09 pm 
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Time will tell if he has attitude problems but I think he went to the absolute worst possible situation. Not only does he have that circus sideshow of a team to contend with, he's got the New York media. To quote the late, great George Carlin: "New York is a character builder, and if you can't handle it, stay the $&@% out!"


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Bust in my opinion but I hope he can succeed for his own sake

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:39 am 
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From my perspective, the poutiest douche in the NFL is Jay Cutler, so I agree that white guys aren't immune from the label. I'll also agree that Cam has proven to be down-and-out alot late in games and has not proven to be the type to hold his head up when the going gets tough and couldn't get enough first downs to finish games (see the 5 fourth quarter meltowns where the Panthers had the lead going into the fourth last year). While these labels may have been deserved from their play in the NFL, Smith has not played a snap in the NFL yet. Thus, I think these labels have been unfairly thrust upon him prematurely. I think Tyler Bray fell, not because of his attitude, but because he underperformed given the talent around him last year at Tennessee--he was much more inconsistant than Geno.


Based on what exactly. Do you know anyone thats on his team personally? I do, and your opinion of him is not based in reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Chukarhawk wrote:
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From my perspective, the poutiest douche in the NFL is Jay Cutler, so I agree that white guys aren't immune from the label. I'll also agree that Cam has proven to be down-and-out alot late in games and has not proven to be the type to hold his head up when the going gets tough and couldn't get enough first downs to finish games (see the 5 fourth quarter meltowns where the Panthers had the lead going into the fourth last year). While these labels may have been deserved from their play in the NFL, Smith has not played a snap in the NFL yet. Thus, I think these labels have been unfairly thrust upon him prematurely. I think Tyler Bray fell, not because of his attitude, but because he underperformed given the talent around him last year at Tennessee--he was much more inconsistant than Geno.


Based on what exactly. Do you know anyone thats on his team personally? I do, and your opinion of him is not based in reality.


who?

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:20 pm 
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aawolf wrote:
His senior year: 42 TDs. Only 6 INTs. 71.2% completion percentage. QBR of 163.9. Those are darn good numbers and don't suggest that he's lacking in QB sight and smarts. He "may" be a bust, and he "may" have fired his agent for nafarious reasons. However, I would judge my agent harshly as well if he "gauranteed" a first round pick and I fell. Your perception of him is based on what you have heard from various news articles and talking heads--and its negative based on SPECULATION from talking heads--news articles, Twitter, ESPN, NFL network, and talk-show hosts need stuff to fill band width and air-time--they fill it with speculation. The takes on Geno are unfairly negative, without highlighting his excellent play on the field. I'll let his play on the feild be the judge of whether he's a good football player, and he seems to be one based on tape I've seen. Until he proves he can't cut it in the NFL, he's not a bust, and based on what I've seen, he should be successful if given the chance.


Jimmy Clausen's stats in his last college year:

68% completion percentage
3,722 yards
8.8 ypa
28 TDs
4 INTs
161.4 passer rating

College stats don't mean much. Clausen and Smith both lack the mental makeup required to be a good NFL QB.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:06 am 
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In Eli's defense, that was more of Archie Manning's doing with San Diego.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 2:31 pm 
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taz291819 wrote:
In Eli's defense, that was more of Archie Manning's doing with San Diego.


Never come to Eli's defense. You are correct about it being Archie though.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:39 pm 
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I don't think he'll be a bust, but mostly because he's going to a dysfunctional organization that couldn't make RW a superstar.

I don't consider second round QBs busts if they don't have a great career.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
I think Geno flops big time.


The logic center of my mind tells me that Smith is a good prospect. Good arm, good mobility, good mechanics, solid footwork, quick release, checks reads, accurate, improved year to year, statistically prolific his senior year (a strong NFL indicator).

The abstract aspect of my mind screams "bust." Low self confidence, lukewarm leadership, lacks that "winner" intangible. The Jets are not a soft landing spot, either. At least not right now. In some ways, you could almost argue that the Jets just drafted another Mark Sanchez.

I feel he's very difficult to predict. He's part RG3, part JaMarcus Russell. When he's on, he'll rip you to shreds, and it doesn't feel like a fluke when he's doing it. Yet at the same time my instincts say "bet your money elsewhere."

I think that's why Smith fell. He creates an intangible uneasiness when you evaluate him, a "we've seen this story before" type feeling. GMs lose their jobs, fairly or not, by busting on QBs in the first round, so you have to make sure that you are completely certain about the pick. Or very desperate.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:00 am 
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Geno strikes me as emotionally fragile, and has an entourage. Both are traits that scare me. If he had gone to a stable system like New England, I would not project bust. But the Jets! He is screwed.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Right now I think he's a bust because none of these quarterbacks should have been drafted before the 3rd round. On top of that He went the Jets a team with no weapons and a coach that misunderstands offense couple that with what is being shown attitude wise and that his offense in college was pure spread it's really a recipe for disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:13 pm 
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^ Agreed. He might surprise; there are players that do every single year. There are plenty of flags to wonder about in regards to Geno Smith, though. Mark Sanchez, part deux?

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:44 pm 
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If he'd gone to a team that could give him more time to develop--perhaps Denver, Philly (assuming Barkley didn't go there), Arizona--I'd feel better about his chances.

I worry about him in NY. As Kearly said, not the best landing spot. Smith seems like the kind of guy that could use time to grow into a leadership role, rather than having it dropped on him from day one. I'm reminded of David Carr a little bit. Tons of talent, not the best situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:13 am 
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Evidently he's trying to hire a new agent to repair his reputation. I think this guy will be VY 2.0 and will have a meltdown soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:20 am 
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I hope we can revisit this thread in mid-season to see if he's actually good. I think the chip on his shoulder will help him and falling as he did may have been the best thing for him. We'll see. His numbers won't be great, in my prediction, given the team he plays for didn't draft or sign enough playmakers on offense and o-line depth to help him too much. But, I'm on record saying he's going to be a franchise QB. Everyone else is on the record saying bust.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:01 pm 
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His ceiling is Vince Young at best. I personally think he'll flame out just as hard as JaLardass did.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Recon_Hawk wrote:
First off, let me say I respect your opinion OP but I have to disagree with it.

To begin with, this sounds pretty familiar to the talk about Ryan Mallett.

Mallett, a good QB on the field (and white, btw), was rumored and accused by fans and the media of heavy drug use, a self-centered attitude, and questionable leadership.

Some proposed there was truth to these reports, but fans of his on the field talents quickly defended his reputation, suggesting it was media speculation and without proof. Turns out teams had the same causes of concern (or facts on the matter) as multiple teams passed on Mallett and he dropped into the 3rd round.

And now with Geno, it's the same fanboy, close-minded attitude in that the media is "speculating" to create news (no matter how much proof is given), and, oh yeah, thats play the "it's because he's black" argument, too (which makes no sense for this particular draft. In those same articles "speculating" that Smith fell because of his poor leadership skills, they "speculate" that EJ Manuel was selected so high, because of his leadership skills! See? How can that be if the media is unfairly portraying black QBs?)

I think the truth lies in how much we want to believe in the college prospects we've loved watching the past few years. We make excuses for our favorite players to protect them and our opinions instead of admitting that maybe the media (and teams) knows something we don't. Maybe we got it wrong.


This is a great example, Mallett when he came out was considered the most pro-ready QB in the draft and was a 1st round talent. He dropped because of rumored character issues. Nobody claimed racism when it was his him getting criticized and then dropping in the draft. What we really see here, with Cam Newton 2 years ago and Geno Smith this year, is that you can't criticize a black QB's character without being called a racist or someone screaming double standard. Newton has proven many of the criticisms he received correct, so in retrospect was it racism? No. It isn't racism now with Geno either.


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 Post subject: Re: Geno Smith--Bust or Star?
 Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:57 am 
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RolandDeschain wrote:
If I were a GM and drafted a QB in the 1st round and he sat out, demanding to be traded, I'd be sorely tempted to make that petulant child sit for the full four years on the bench as a lesson.

I do not and never will agree with what Eli and Elway did.


spot on!!

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