The Seahawks and the 2013 Free Agent Bargain Basement ...

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  • I've mentioned i like William Hayes also, last year i think he finish the last 6 games with 5.5 sacks. Like you said he hasn't really been able to see the field a ton playing behind talented guys, but watching a little film on him, he lined up inside(nascar package) and outside for the Rams last year. I'm wondering if Clem isn't back right away do you think he can play in that LEO role? If so when Clem does make it back, you could move him inside on obvious passing downs like the Rams did. I like the sounds of Clem,Hayes,Jones,Irvin as a 4 man pass rush.
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  • getnasty wrote:I've mentioned i like William Hayes also, last year i think he finish the last 6 games with 5.5 sacks. Like you said he hasn't really been able to see the field a ton playing behind talented guys, but watching a little film on him, he lined up inside(nascar package) and outside for the Rams last year. I'm wondering if Clem isn't back right away do you think he can play in that LEO role? If so when Clem does make it back, you could move him inside on obvious passing downs like the Rams did. I like the sounds of Clem,Hayes,Jones,Irvin as a 4 man pass rush.


    Actually, where I'd see the value of a William Hayes is if Schneider and company feels that either they can't get something done with (contract-wise) ... or that he'd be an upgrade over Jason Jones. That's the role that I could see Hayes playing and doing very well at it.

    As far as Clemons's position is concerned ... I'm personally hoping for someone with absolute freakish athleticism (strength and speed) there. I'm loving what I'm hearing about Ezekiel Ansah ... but they'd have to trade up to nab him.
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  • A couple of names to add to the QB list are Troy Smith and Dennis Dickson.
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  • McGruff wrote:A couple of names to add to the QB list are Troy Smith and Dennis Dickson.


    That's a great catch there Crime Dog. Dennis Dixon definitely would be an intriguing name for sure. Interestingly enough, Mike Florio just wrote an article up on him 2 days ago ...

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/24/dennis-dixon-could-be-laying-foundation-for-next-phase-of-his-career/

    He'd certainly be an interesting name given that he played at Oregon, is very athletic, and is naturally very familiar with the Zone Read Option. He's tall, has a good arm, and at one time was in the conversation as a Heisman candidate before he tore his ACL.

    Troy Smith is another interesting name -- 6'0" 217 Pounds (short by NFL standards, but could workable in Seattle's system given his athleticism and scrambling ability). He is a very good athlete, has an extremely good arm, and is an accurate passer. There's a reason he won the Heisman Trophy.

    The one concern I have is that both guys are 28 years old ... but yeah, I'd be game to have them come in and compete for the 3rd QB Spot in training camp.
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  • If the Hawks go old at QB, just grab Seneca.
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  • pehawk wrote:If the Hawks go old at QB, just grab Seneca.


    Yeah I'd thought about Seneca honestly ... but trading him away was one of Schneider and Carroll's very first moves. In general, they value size at the position and Seneca doesn't have that. Not that Troy Smith is Goliath either, but he does have a much stronger resume than Seneca does IMO ... AND he's 4 years younger (Seneca is 32).
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  • They traded Seneca, followed by trading for Whitehurst. So, I dont know they knew what they wanted.

    Here's why I want Seneca; no sacks, no INT's, no fumbles. He'll go 19/22 for 94 yards...and that's perfect.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:Guys, if you'd like to comment I'm asking that it be back on point. I understand when people feel a little miffed and they want to vent. I get that. Honestly though from my perspective, I'm OK with the MOD's decision. Like all Refs, they have a tough job to do and even if I don't agree with a call from time to time ... I'll stick by it and accept it. I'm a teacher by trade, so know the importance of discipline and order.

    That said, I'd like to get back to the topic at hand and ask you all ...

    1) Do you see any of the names that I listed above that intrigue/excite you?
    2) Do you see any of the names that I listed above as ones (in your opinion) Scneider could honestly target?

    The more I've thought about it, the ones that I believe are MOST likely are ...

    Paul Kruger (who again ISN'T a "Bargain" guy -- he's a Premium FA).

    On the "Bargain" Shelf (i.e. guys who won't break the bank), the names I'm thinking JS will check in to are:

    TE Fred Davis (the USC connection there, the talent, and the price tag alone)
    DE Osi Umenyiora (we know Seattle has liked him in the past)
    DT's Desmond Bryant and Vance Walker (I'd call them an upgrade over Branch - good, young talent)
    CB Derek Cox
    CB Bradley Fletcher (both Fletcher and Cox have experience as Nickel Backs and have done very well there. They're young, but injury history, other FA options at CB, and a good crop of corners in the draft will keep the cost down).

    Thoughts guys on those names ... on any other of the names I listed above ... or any other perceived bargain guys floating around?


    Yeah no problem taking back on topic (with one final comment to make - it's a football forum, not a classroom, order and discipline are far down the list of things required between football fans chatting with each other)

    To be honest, whilst I can see the FO looking at cornerbacks to upgrade over Trufant, someone like Cox won't be cheap, and certainly I don't think expensive players with a history of injuries will be looked at to upgrade over Thurmond, who is good enough to be the guy but has that injury history himself - Fletcher is a similar situation, but would be a lot cheaper so I can see them considering it, however, I think the cornerback we are looking for will either be drafted this year, or perhaps already on the roster between Maxwell and Lane, both of whom played adequately in relief of Browner.

    I don't perceive TE to be as much of a need as others either, Miller is a great all-around player, and McCoy is still young, improving every season and came up with some clutch catches himself, so a high-priced free agent signing is a low low priority (I know you're talking about bargains here, but do we really think Davis will go cheap? The Redskins franchised him last year and likely he will be looking for one of the bigger TE contracts out there - perhaps not Miller sized, but certainly something substantial.

    Finally, the last of your picks I disagree with would be Kruger - who I agree would be a premium FA, but as a member of the soon-to-be-superbowl-champs ravens (in no universe can I ever consider the 49ers winning that game), he'll be looking to stay first and foremost, and while I'm not familiar with the Ravens' cap situation, I imagine they'll be happy to pay him what he deserves, especially with them losing Ray Lewis too - losing 2 starting linebackers in one offseason would be a difficult situation to overcome, so I imagine he'll fail to even reach the FA market.

    Bryant I think is probably near the top of the list of guys JS is looking at, and for good reason, he'll probably reach FA unless the Raiders do some significant trimming elsewhere, and he's one of the top available players at the position - I don't think he'll come cheap, but he'd be a significant upgrade over Branch IMO, and of course Osi is always being touted as a possible addition to the roster, I think he'd be a good addition if we could get him relatively cheap (say 3 years for somewhere between 12-15 million I'd be OK with), if a guy like Raheem Brock can put up 9 sacks at 32 after posting 12.5 combined in the previous 4 years, then a far more talented guy in Osi should be able to match that - particularly with the looming possibility of an ineffective Clemons returning from injury (though personally I think he'll be fine).

    Ideally I'd like to see the front office scouring for defensive ends and picking up 2 or 3, if we could rotate fresh defensive ends in against tiring tackles, sacks would build up, and towards the end of the game players like Irvin would be able to dominate and prevent those damn last second losses
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:
    olyfan63 wrote:
    bmorepunk wrote:I heard Carey Williams say on the radio this season that the infamous Tate catch was in fact an interception and there was no doubt in his mind and the refs blew it.

    Do any of you still want him?


    Sure, who gives a rip what he said about Tate's TD catch? And he's a defensive back, do you expect him to side with the receiver on any play like this?
    All I care about is CAN HE PLAY and get the job done. I don't care if he's convinced alien ET's are responsible for 9/11, if he can cover and be a contributing part of the team.


    Exactly what I was going to say. Seriously, this is a cornerback we're talking about. Of course he's going to side with a fellow CB in thinking it was an INT.


    I was interested to see how far some might take the fury over the whole thing. There was some serious demonization of people who dared to say something like that to the point that they'd disown their own family.

    The real problem with Williams isn't this but it's as others stated: he's probably getting paid to start somewhere and it's out of the price range. Baltimore likely won't keep him because they're in serious cap trouble (particularly with probably having to eat a $15 million per year contract from Flacco now that he's woken up) but the guy is probably good enough to sign on to a starting job somewhere for decent money with where he's been. He probably won't take Seattle money to play nickel.
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  • My question is why are we talking corners at all? My guess is that Trufant stays as depth in 2013 with Lane and Maxwell providing the step up in their second and third seasons respectively to take over the slot. I have gotten to the point where I think an injury settlement would be best for Thurmond III. If Parker and Shead show nothing in preseason they will be gone, but I will be amazed if we don't bring in at least three more undrafted free agents to battle it out in training camp.
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  • pehawk wrote:They traded Seneca, followed by trading for Whitehurst. So, I dont know they knew what they wanted.

    Here's why I want Seneca; no sacks, no INT's, no fumbles. He'll go 19/22 for 94 yards...and that's perfect.


    You know, I've been thinking today about the issue of this regime's supposed ineptitude at being able to identify quarterbacks. I know this isn't exactly what you're saying Pehawks, but your post got me to thinking about this in terms of Schneider and Carroll because some Hawks fans might be thinking after the Whitehurst deal ... and then seemingly whiffing on Matt Flynn (paying him as a starter) that they just aren't very good at evaluating QB's.

    Well, for those who might think along those lines, I'd remind you that Mike Holmgren had a reputation of being one of the best in the NFL at identifying, working with, and developing quarterbacks. He was considered one of the NFL's true QB gurus (and of course still is). Just a little historical review on Holmgren:

    As you'll recall, Holmgren was hired prior to the 1999 season and was in Seattle through the 2008 season. And not only was he COACH Mike Holmgren ... he was also GM Mike Holmgren until Tim Ruskell was brought in prior to the 2005 season. So, for 6 years prior to Ruskell's arrival, Holmgren had full control to buy all the groceries.

    Holmgren obviously hit on Matt Hasselbeck, trading Seattle's 1st (10th overall) and 3rd Round Picks in 2001 to Green Bay for Hasselbeck, Green Bay's 1st Round Choice (17th) and 7th Round picks that year. It could be also argued that he hit on Seneca Wallace, drafting him in the 4th Round in 2003.

    That said, he also had several whiffs on the QB position as well ...

    1999 -- (3rd Round) Brock Huard -- U of Wash.
    2001 -- (6th Round) Josh Booty -- Louisiana State
    2003 -- (7th Round) Jeff Kelly -- Southern Miss.
    2005 -- (3rd Round) David Greene -- Georgia

    In Cleveland, Holmgren also missed on Colt McCoy (3rd Round in 2010) ... though to be completely fair, a lot of people were off on their evaluation of him including Trent Dilfer, who said of McCoy that he was a 1st Round talent and that when everything was all said and done that he would end up having the best career of any of the QB's taken that year. And of course, I would argue that the jury is still out on Brandon Weeden.

    Point being that it's been said that Quarterback is the hardest position in all the NFL to accurately evaluate. Therefore, for those who might be inclined to criticize Carroll and Schneider -- I wouldn't be too hard on them. Even the Best QB's prospects bomb out ... and those whom everyone seemingly believes will fail (i.e. Brady, Hasselbeck, Krieg, etc.) succeed. Despite all the best talent evaluation in the world, it's still very much a crap shoot when it comes to quarterbacks.
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  • I'm in the minority here, but I don't have any issue with the Whitehurst deal. He has 1st round tools, actually, they thought Pete could motivate him. Didn't work, oh well, ya take the gamble.

    As far as prettiest ball, Huard's probably top 5 in NFL history. Just a wuss.
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  • So is this getting moved back to the main forum?
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:
    pehawk wrote:You know, I've been thinking today about the issue of this regime's supposed ineptitude at being able to identify quarterbacks. I know this isn't exactly what you're saying Pehawks, but your post got me to thinking about this in terms of Schneider and Carroll because some Hawks fans might be thinking after the Whitehurst deal ... and then seemingly whiffing on Matt Flynn (paying him as a starter) that they just aren't very good at evaluating QB's.


    I think it's a totally unfair rep, what we paid for Whitehurst is pretty cheap for a QB (essentially valued at 2 3rd round picks) - particularly one with the tools he had. And I don't think missing on a QB means they can't evaluate them, it just means they're not available. They paid for Whitehurst in 2010 before the draft - tell me which QB was available then that would actually be an improvement over him? Bradford went number 1 overall, then the list of QBs that went after him goes:

    Tim Tebow
    Jimmy Clausen
    Colt McCoy
    Mike Kafka
    John Skelton, Jonathan Crompton
    Rusty Smith, Dan Levour, Joe Webb, Tony Pike
    Levi Brown, Sean Canfield, Zach Robinson

    Great QB class eh? They took a calculated risk and it didn't work out, JS said you should never panic.

    2011 was a better year for QBs, but still there was nobody that would have been available with our 3rd round pick had we not traded it away - we DID trade down into the 3rd with our 2nd to get an extra 4th (and moved up 3 space in the 5th, a pick that turned into Sherman, who knows if he'd have been available if we hadn't...), and that 2nd could have been used for Ryan Mallett, but there's no reason to believe he would be successful here.

    And blaming them for "whiffing on Flynn" is ridiculous (whoever does that), they signed a QB because they didn't have one, then drafted Russell Wilson, once again, if they decided not to sign Flynn then some keen GM decided to draft Wilson in the first round we wouldn't have ANY QB, so it was teh right move to make.

    I think they do just fine evaluationg QBs
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  • themunn wrote:To be honest, whilst I can see the FO looking at cornerbacks to upgrade over Trufant, someone like Cox won't be cheap, and certainly I don't think expensive players with a history of injuries will be looked at to upgrade over Thurmond, who is good enough to be the guy but has that injury history himself - Fletcher is a similar situation, but would be a lot cheaper so I can see them considering it, however, I think the cornerback we are looking for will either be drafted this year, or perhaps already on the roster between Maxwell and Lane, both of whom played adequately in relief of Browner.


    So first of all let me go ahead and define what I mean when I say "Bargain" and how I'm using that throughout this thread. When I say "Bargain", I mean someone who isn't going to be making the big dollars ... whose value is going to be knocked down because of either age, injury, weaknesses in their game, etc. That's how I'm defining it for the purposes of the discussion here.

    As far as Cox is concerned, I don't know that I'd agree that he's going to be able to get the big bucks come Free Agency. It bears repeating -- he's missed 17 games in the past 3 years ... AND he's been pretty much exclusively a Nickel CB. Now he's going to want to go somewhere where he's going to get a chance to start (and to be paid like a starter) ... but honestly, if I were in another team's shoes, there's no way I'm paying him like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't see another team going there with him.

    I would agree with you that of the two, Fletcher is the most likely target for this team ... AND that they will probably look to add a CB through the Draft. Totally agreed.

    themunn wrote:I don't perceive TE to be as much of a need as others either, Miller is a great all-around player, and McCoy is still young, improving every season and came up with some clutch catches himself, so a high-priced free agent signing is a low low priority (I know you're talking about bargains here, but do we really think Davis will go cheap? The Redskins franchised him last year and likely he will be looking for one of the bigger TE contracts out there - perhaps not Miller sized, but certainly something substantial.


    I would disagree there ... and Brock Huard definitely does as well. It was very interesting listening to Brock talk today, as he summed up my position perfectly when it comes to the TE position. He said he'd like a guy like an Aaron Hernandez who can really compliment Zack Miller and be that TE who could stretch the field. To me, as I'm looking at this FA class -- Fred Davis is a guy who could be that kind of TE. Do I believe he'll be cheap? Yes I know that he was Franchised last year ... but we're talking about a guy who missed over 1/2 the season with a torn Achilles tendon. Would you honestly franchise him and pay him the big bucks if you were the Redskins?

    Finally, the last of your picks I disagree with would be Kruger - who I agree would be a premium FA, but as a member of the soon-to-be-superbowl-champs ravens (in no universe can I ever consider the 49ers winning that game), he'll be looking to stay first and foremost, and while I'm not familiar with the Ravens' cap situation, I imagine they'll be happy to pay him what he deserves, especially with them losing Ray Lewis too - losing 2 starting linebackers in one offseason would be a difficult situation to overcome, so I imagine he'll fail to even reach the FA market.


    OK, here's the situation with the Ravens if you're not aware with what's going on with them. Baltimore right now has $15.7 million in available Cap Space. The big problem that they're facing right now is with Joe Flacco. According to John Clayton, Flacco already turned down a deal that will pay him $17 million/season and many experts out there believe that when it's all said and done that he will be making $20 million/year. That's a lot of bread there. On top of that, Dannell Ellerbe (Ray Lewis's successor) is also a FA and also deserves to be paid. He'll take up even more of the available cookies they have. If they can't get a deal done with Flacco, they're going to have to Franchise him (obviously) ... but even if they don't, the question is will they have the money to re-sign Paul Kruger. It's quite conceivable that he'll find himself out there on the open market because of all that.

    Lastly, I agree on what you wrote regarding Bryant ... and that above else the Hawks will be doing everything in their power (turning over every conceivable rock) in order to upgrade the DT and get that real true stud DE.
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  • Nice post.

    Please add Johnny Knox to your bargain receiver list. 4.3 speed, I think we should kick the tires.

    For TE, I am only interested in Jared Cook. Its very rare to find a TE with that kind of athleticism and speed. Jared clocked a 4.4 40 and I think Vernon Davis might be the only guy faster than him at the position.

    I prefer using the draft for DL but I want to take a hard look at Desmond Bryant.
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  • SDHawk wrote:Nice post.

    Please add Johnny Knox to your bargain receiver list. 4.3 speed, I think we should kick the tires.


    How ironic would THAT be, seeing how it was against us that he hurt his back. Hargrove's hit did a lot of damage and frankly, I'd be afraid that one more good one (given the nature of that injury) could paralyze him. If there's a basement bargain, it would certainly be him. I'd expect Schneider and company to do their due diligence on him ... but I don't know that I'd buy if I were Schneider.

    SDHawk wrote:For TE, I am only interested in Jared Cook. Its very rare to find a TE with that kind of athleticism and speed. Jared clocked a 4.4 40 and I think Vernon Davis might be the only guy faster than him at the position.


    He's an interesting name to be certain ... and probably the #1 target out there in FA as far as TE's are concerned. We'll see for sure. We'll see.

    SDHawk wrote:I prefer using the draft for DL but I want to take a hard look at Desmond Bryant.


    There's no rule to say that the Hawks can't do both. I would expect that Desmond Bryant and Vance Walker would both be names that Schneider will look in to once FA starts. But yes, I agree that drafting a DT is highly likely.
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  • I'm not sure how I feel about Hartline. Yeah, he posted a nice season, but he got nearly half his total yardage in just 3 games. I'd be worried about his consistency.

    As for Knox, until there's any indication from any even half-reliable source that he's close to physically able to return to the NFL, he's not worth the keystrokes it takes to type up anything on him. Dude's got spinal damage and has no idea if he'll be able to play football ever again.
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  • volsunghawk wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about Hartline. Yeah, he posted a nice season, but he got nearly half his total yardage in just 3 games. I'd be worried about his consistency.


    That's an excellent point on Hartline and one of the real reasons that I don't believe he's going to make the big bucks out there in FA. Of the 74 catches and 1,083 yards he garnered this season ... these were his 3 biggest games ...





    Brian Hartline's 3 Most Productive Games 2012
    OpponentReceptionsYardsTouchdowns
    Raiders91110
    Cardinals122531
    Colts81070
    Grand Total294711


    So, 39% of all his catches and 43.5% of his entire yards came in just 3 games. And against the Hawks he only managed 2 catches for 17 yards.

    That's why I see him as not being all that expensive of a commodity (or certainly not worth paying the big money to). However, what you DO see from him is a propensity to get downfield and to make deep catches on a consistent basis. That's the lens that I'm looking at this through.

    volsunghawk wrote:As for Knox, until there's any indication from any even half-reliable source that he's close to physically able to return to the NFL, he's not worth the keystrokes it takes to type up anything on him. Dude's got spinal damage and has no idea if he'll be able to play football ever again.


    Completely agreed on that one. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:So, 39% of all his catches and 43.5% of his entire yards came in just 3 games. And against the Hawks he only managed 2 catches for 17 yards.



    You can say the same thing for Golden Tate against the NFC North: 42% of his catches, 37% of his yards and 71% of his touchdowns came in those four games. I am sure that all of us would be content if we had another Tate on our roster though. In fact, I fully expect one of those teams to make a very good offer to Tate when he becomes a free agent based on this year.
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  • Dustin Kller at TE and Troy Smith at QB.
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