Q&A w/Broncos & Seahawks Fans -- Super Bowl Preview ...

A collection of NET's best and most memorable threads. Predictions, debates, laughs, and X's & O's. Rating: PG to NC-17
  • Hawkscanner wrote:Speaking of Offensive Line, you may be the perfect person to ask this question to (and any other Broncos fans can feel free to chime in as well). Despite the stats of the Broncos Offensive Line this year, many experts have said that in reality Denver's O-Line is just "OK". What they are saying is that Peyton Manning makes the members of that O-Line better than they actually are, as he is able to recognize things at the line of scrimmage and slide the protections to where he needs it. Would you say that's a fair or unfair assessment? Agree or Disagree and WHY?


    Peyton Manning's quick release and ability to decipher a defense before the snap will make any Oline look better than they are. The Broncos offensive line is talented, and they have come together during the second half of the season. They rarely double the outside pass rushers and leave the tackles to fend for themselves for the most part.

    The Broncos run the ball extremely well over the right side behind 335 pounders Louis Vasquez and Orlando Franklin. Manny Ramirez has become a very good center throughout the year. The weak link is Zane Beadles. He's an incredibly effective guard when he's pulling, but often gets overpowered when trying to inline block one on one. Center Manny Ramirez will usually double his man, as Louis Vasquez on the other side is one of the best pass blocking guards in the league. Chris Clark has done an admirable job filling in for Ryan Clady. He's good, but he's no Clady. Still, the Broncos leave him one on one most of the time.

    This line has gotten quite a bit better over the season. In the first 8 games of the season, the Broncos averaged 3.7 YPC. In the last 8 games of the season they ran the ball for 4.4 YPC. Impressive, considering the Broncos played 5 games against playoff teams over the last 8 games, and only 2 in the first 8 games.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Come on guys. I'm trying to have a legit footbal discussion. Here, I'll go first: The broncos would trade Knowshon AND Monte Ball for Beast mode straight up, no prob.


    I was having a legit discussion. I am not questioning DT's ability, but what I am saying is that his fit in the way Seattle does things would be questionable. Also remember that Harvin is familiar with how Bevel (his old coach at Minny) does things.

    Just because I respect a good player doesn't mean I have to worship at his feet. Frankly I think you guys trading for Lynch would be a bad move because Lynch doesn't fit the sort of running game P.M. likes to have.

    In addition, if you look at DT on tape, he doesn't handle press coverage especially well. Again no disrepect intended, but merely an observation that that's where his game is weakest (and something Indy exploited). When you consider that Seattle plays in the NFC West that has lots of very physical coverages, I hope you can see that DT simply might not be a good fit....and so I say again, I think such a straight up trade would be doubtful.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Come on guys. I'm trying to have a legit footbal discussion. Here, I'll go first: The broncos would trade Knowshon AND Monte Ball for Beast mode straight up, no prob.


    I was having a legit discussion. I am not questioning DT's ability, but what I am saying is that his fit in the way Seattle does things would be questionable. Also remember that Harvin is familiar with how Bevel (his old coach at Minny) does things.

    Just because I respect a good player doesn't mean I have to worship at his feet. Frankly I think you guys trading for Lynch would be a bad move because Lynch doesn't fit the sort of running game P.M. likes to have.

    In addition, if you look at DT on tape, he doesn't handle press coverage especially well. Again no disrepect intended, but merely an observation that that's where his game is weakest (and something Indy exploited). When you consider that Seattle plays in the NFC West that has lots of very physical coverages, I hope you can see that DT simply might not be a good fit....and so I say again, I think such a straight up trade would be doubtful.


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  • Nice play. So? I stand by my points. I can post nice plays too.

    Edit PS: New England has not been known for a very good defense and is not known for good physical press coverage (which makes your play even more irrelevant).

    Here is a more in depth analysis of what I am talking about.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ius-thomas
    Last edited by Polaris on Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:I’ve got a question for you Broncos fans that I’m going to premise with this ...

    As I'm sure you guys are all aware of, Percy Harvin has been practicing and it’s been announced that he'll play in the Super Bowl. When totally healthy, he is absolutely electric and is the kind of guy that can really take the top off a defense ...


    Harvin’s been out most of the year though, so what exactly Seattle is going to get out of him is a bit of a mystery. He missed all of training camp and most of the season due to hip surgery. He came back for the Vikings game, made some eye popping plays, but aggravated that hip and was on the shelf the rest of the regular season. He came back for the Saints Divisional game, but was knocked out of the game with a concussion in the 2nd Quarter. He’s reportedly healthy again, but he’s an X-Factor for sure.

    When he’s healthy, his speed, change of direction, athleticism, and overall skill and versatility can give opposing defensive coordinators fits. John Moffit (former Seahawk from last year's squad who was in training camp with the Hawks this year and ended up in Denver briefly) totally agrees with that assessment -- as he said that's Harvin's one of a handful of guys in the league who are truly special and can really alter a game.

    And we saw him do exactly that in the Minnesota game. When he came in the game, all of a sudden those CB's and Safeties started backing off. Former Seahawk Dave Wyman wrote a great piece for 710 ESPN after the Minnesota game in which he chronicled his observations of the effect Harvin had in that game. I'd highly recommend it ...

    The Percy Harvin Effect -- Dave Wyman

    When the Seahawks put him in on a kickoff in that Vikings game, this is what happened (click on link below for video clip) ...

    http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Percy-Harvin-58-yard-kick-return/48d3ed8e-5438-47cd-bcb5-e205f26fd387


    Coming in to this game, I know the Broncos secondary is pretty banged up. So my 2 part question I have for Broncos fans is this ...

    1) Do you see Percy Harvin changing the way that Jack Del Rio and the Broncos attack Seattle's Offense? If so, how?

    2) How do you believe Del Rio will look to defend against Harvin? Do they have the horses at this point in the season to effectively do so?


    The most underrated player on the Broncos defense is Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. DRC has the size, speed, and skills to blanket any receiver in the game. He's 6'1 1/2 184 pounds, and ran a 4.29 at the combine which is the 6th fastest time of all players since they instituted the electronic timers. Del Rio played him one on one with Desean Jackson in the Philly game and he essentially took him out of the game. Jackson had his lowest output of the season with just 2 receptions for 34 yards. I expect Del Rio to have him play Harvin the same way.
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  • In my opinion, after watching every Hawks game this year, the biggest defensive weakness is giving up big running plays. With big running plays of 50+ yards, Kapaernick killed us, Frank Gore killed us, Eddie Lacey killed us, DeAngelo Williams almost killed us early in the year (prior to a fumble). There is a tendency to break down if you run hard and run often. Big, physical backs can run through our LBs if they try enough times. Of course, that kind of hard nosed running is not the staple of the Broncos.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:The most underrated player on the Broncos defense is Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. DRC has the size, speed, and skills to blanket any receiver in the game. He's 6'1 1/2 184 pounds, and ran a 4.29 at the combine which is the 6th fastest time of all players since they instituted the electronic timers. Del Rio played him one on one with Desean Jackson in the Philly game and he essentially took him out of the game. Jackson had his lowest output of the season with just 2 receptions for 34 yards. I expect Del Rio to have him play Harvin the same way.


    As crazy as it may sound, that would be just fine because it would mean 1 less guy covering Seattle's other receivers. The numbers may not show it, but Russell Wilson actually has a lot of weapons at his disposal in the passing game. Let me touch on a few of those ...

    Doug Baldwin is a guy who has a propensity to come up with big plays in the clutch. Baldwin is one of those guys that not a lot of people outside of Seattle really know about ... but he can be a real playmaker. He ended up leading the Seahawks in passes of 20 yards or more completed (14). One interesting note about him that few outside of Seattle know about -- in training camp, Baldwin actually emailed Hall of Fame Seahawks WR Steve Largent and asked him about receiving advice, tips, etc. Largent was hesitant at first but then finally said, "Ah heck, what are they going to do, kick me out of the Hall of Fame?" and he obliged. Baldwin has been making a lot of those toe nail dragging falling out of bounds on the sidelines catches this season ... and I don't think that's a coincidence (Largent made a career out of making those kinds of catches). There have been many times he's looked like Largent to me out there, so he's certainly a guy to keep an eye on.

    Golden Tate led the Seahawks this year in receptions (64) and passing yards (898). He also was our leading punt returner and was one of the best in the league doing that. He's very elusive once he has the ball in his hands -- very shifty and deceptively quick. He is highly underrated and is quite capable of making big plays.

    Jermaine Kearse -- again, is a guy that outside of Seattle, few people know about. He's a large receiver (6'1" 209 pounds) and actually has very good football speed (he runs a 4.43 in the 40). His reputation coming in to this season was as a guy who tends to have a lot of drops. He had lasik surgery in the offseason ... and that has virtually disappeared. He has shown good leaping ability, very good hands, and has made several key plays in the clutch -- including last week's game deciding TD against the 49ers on a 4th and 7. He's a guy to keep your eyes on.

    TE Zach Miller is a guy who can certainly go off. He had some big catches against you guys and had a huge day against the Falcons in the 2nd Round of the Playoffs last year (8 catches, 142 yards, 1 TD). Miller was a Pro Bowler with the Raiders and though he's not put up the type of numbers that you might expect of a Jimmy Graham or a Vernon Davis, he is very capable of having big days.

    Another guy to really keep an eye on who's been real hot of late (if he's at all healthy) is rookie 5th round draft choice TE Luke Willson. Willson is a real specimen (6'5" 252 pounds and ran a 4.51 on his pro day at Rice) and Russell Wilson has started to develop a real rapport with him and he has become a favorite target down the stretch. Here's a 39 Yd. TD catch he had against the 49ers ...

    http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Luke-Willson-39-yard-TD-catch/7aa26eda-1b6d-4e45-82a0-e86bcb38bfcc

    Against the Rams, Willson had a brilliant 1 handed 30 yard catch that would have gone to the house for a TD at the start of the 4th Quarter. It was an absolutely awesome play that would have made Sportcenter highlights. The Seahawks were on their own 20 yard line. The Rams jumped offsides (and the flag was thrown), so it was one of those free plays. The problem is that the referee (for some odd reason) blew his whistle right as Willson was catching the ball at the 50 yard line (there wasn't a Rams defender anywhere to be seen between Willson and the goal line) and blew the play dead. It was the first time I've really even seen this in Seattle -- Pete Carroll was ticked. He threw his gum on the turf, visibly upset at the fact the referee did that. The very next play, Willson gets the ball on a short 4 yard completion and injures his ankle. Now, it was diagnosed at the time as a high ankle sprain and people were thinking he was out for the year. However, Willson has been playing and it looks like he's fine. Keep an eye on that one.

    Now I'm not saying that Seattle wants to get in to a shoot out with the Broncos -- they don't. I can virtually promise you that the game plan will be to pass to set up the RUN. That said, if it does come to that, the Seahawks actually do have quite a few playmakers that could make things interesting for sure.
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  • Eldorado wrote:You're telling me that Carroll wouldn't trade percy for DT straight up?


    I'm not saying that Percy Harvin is somehow better than DThomas at all. I believe Carroll probably would make that trade. Of course. All I'm saying is that I think Harvin could be a factor in this game. That's it, that's all.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks to the Broncos fans who’ve been kind enough to break down Denver’s Special Teams for us. Before we completely leave that topic, I’d like to reciprocate the favor and let Broncos fans know a bit about Seattle’s Special Teams this year.

    Because a game can come down to Special Teams -- big turnovers, field position, etc, I think that’s an extremely important element that’s too often overlooked.

    As far as Kickoff Coverage is concerned, the Seahawks I'd say have did fairly well in that department despite what some of the stats might indicate. According to the numbers, Seattle allowed an average of 24.0 yards/kickoff (tied for 12th most in the league). However, pure yards allowed DO tend to lie and are somewhat meaningless -- Seattle hasn't allowed a kickoff return for a TD all year and generally haven't been in the habit of giving teams good field position. K Steven Hauschka has a habit of banging kickoffs into the end zone with great regularity, so often there hasn't been an opportunity for a return at all. Seattle had 48 touchbacks this year (8th Most in the NFL. I know Denver was #1 with 81).

    Seattle's punt coverage has been historically good this year. Going into Week 17, the Seahawks punt coverage unit had allowed a grand total of just 25 punt return yards (an average of just 1.56 yards/return this year). That was far and away #1 in the NFL and to put that into some context -- the NFL record for fewest punt return yards in a season was 22 by the 1967 Packers. Then, the Hawks go out and allow a 32 yard return to Austin Pettis in the last game. Oh well. Punter Jon Ryan has quite adept at the finesse game (at kicking inside the 10 yard line) and the Hawks have been fairly good at downing punts inside the 10 this year. He doesn’t outkick his coverage and has done a nice job of placing punts where they need to be. CB Jeremy Lane has been one of the best gunners in the league on punt coverage this year. I'd honestly say he should have been a Pro Bowler this year on Special Teams, as he's been particularly adept at downing punts inside the 10 yard line … and has been extremely good at tackling runners for little or no gain. Combined with guys like Ricardo Lockette (who’s been talked about above), that unit is pretty darned impressive.

    When it comes to opponent Field Goals, one guy to really keep an eye on his Big Red Bryant. He has blocked 5 field goals in his career.

    When it comes to their own kickoff returns, the Seahawks (so far this season) weren't all that spectacular in that arena in the regular season (they averaged only 21.2 yards/return -- tied for 27th in the NFL) and didn't break one for a TD. As I'm sure some of you saw in the Vikings game however, that could very easily change now that Percy Harvin has returned and been cleared to play in the Super Bowl All it took was one 58 yard kickoff return for Pete Carroll to declare, "He's in there" as far as kickoffs are concerned. And when he was "in there" for Minnesota, Harvin was one of the league's best last year, averaging an eye popping 35.9 yards/return (which was #1 in the NFL at the time he got injured). I fully expect him to return kickoffs in this game.

    On punt returns, Seattle has done fairly well in that arena as well. They ended the regular season averaging 11.1 yards/punt return (9th best average in the league). You'll see Golden Tate returning punts in the Super Bowl (he's been the regular) and his overall shiftiness and change of direction lend well to him being a good return man. He is very sure handed and if memory serves, hasn’t muffed a punt this year or had a fumble on a punt return .

    Kicking-game wise, K Steven Hauschka has generally been money this year on FG. Seattle made 33 Field Goals in 35 tries (94.3%, which was 2nd best in the NFL -- right behind Denver). For what it's worth, he is 3 for 3 from 50 yards and beyond this year … and 11 for 12 from 40-49 yards. The one miss that Hauschka had on the season was a blocked field goal in the Colts game. That’s the only one he’s missed all year. The other miss that shows up on the stat sheet was an absolute Key Stone Cops disaster. So, in the Titans game, Steven Hauschka decided that he wanted to break the stereotype that kickers are weenies and took on the kickoff returner head on -- great form tackle -- but it absolutely knocked him flat (bloody nose on the sideline, a bit dizzy, the whole bit). So, he's out of commission for a bit. The Seahawks forced a punt and on the next series, drove down to the Titans 4 yard line. The drive stalls and Pete decides, "Let's try a field goal." Big problem -- Hauschka is still a bit dinged up. So, they send out Punter Jon Ryan to try one. Mind you, Jon Ryan hadn't attempted a FG since the preseason of 2004 ... when he was in the Canadian Football League. Ryan is also the normal holder on field goals. Enter backup safety Chris Maragos, who did hold for kicks all 4 years at Wisconsin ... but hadn't held for one in 4 years. Houston, do we have a problem? They certainly did on that play. Maragos botched the hold ... tried to run with it ... fumbled ... the Titans picked it up and were off to the races.

    Doug Farrar has a good write-up on that play along with pictures and video to boot ...

    http://nfl.si.com/2013/10/13/steven-hauschka-seattle-seahawks-field-goal/

    Pete took full responsibility for that attempt and fully admitted after the game that it was a bad move. Hauschka returned later in the game and so did the kicking game.

    So, there's a brief breakdown for you guys on the Seahawks Special Teams thus far.

    All of that said, I’ve got another question for Broncos fans.

    I’ve heard some of you saying that kickoff coverage has been a major issue for the Broncos this year. In fact, as I look through the stat sheet, I noticed that during the regular season, Denver allowed an average of 29.3 yards/kickoff return (worst in the NFL in that category). As I mentioned above, it looks like Percy Harvin will probably be returning kicks in this game. Do you guys at all see kickoff coverage and overall starting field position being a potential issue for the Broncos in this game?
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  • johntfootball wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    johntfootball wrote:
    Polaris wrote:I would rethink this after looking at Seattle's defense this year. Seattle doesn't give up very many points to ANYONE. Just saying.

    Except 34 points to Indy?



    Picking stats from one game is useless and misleading. I could say the same thing, If san diego can hold you to 20 than don't expect to score more than 10... anyways....

    Its worthwhile to mention that Peyton manning versus Pete Carroll coached teams is 1-3 with very unimpressive stats I might add. Also Manning in his two superbowls has thrown 2 td's with 2 picks. He had very impresive teams in those games too. The last two times each 1 seed met was in Peyton's most recent superbowl(09').
    So for you Denver fans to think Peyton will throw down 400 with 4 td's on a historically good defense is a little heavy handed, you can't expect him to start playing more like Tom now...
    A good point is that through week 10 I believe (correct me if I am wrong) before our offensive slump we were second in points scored per game, averaging 28.something second only to Denver. Keep in mind that was without the player that was leading the MVP race the last season he played, and a few analyst have gone as far as regarding him as the single most explosive player in the nfl.
    I believe we 12's are all going to be very surprised at how well our offense flows with Harvin.
    Just look at the Divisional round versus the saints, Dangeruss was looking very good throwing to #11. If that #25 on the saints didnt take a cheap ejection-worthy hit on him i'm sure that second hit in the endzone wouldnt of brought him out of the game and we would of saw russell have a phenomenal game. Russ probably shouldn't of left him hanging on those though.
    Anyways, with Percy, Russell's improvisation, Tha Beast carrying us when he is called, Pete's prior history with beating Peyton and Peyton's lack of numbers in past superbowls we should pull this one through.
    12's I think this defense could very well go down in history as one of the best defense's assembled, but for that to happen as it did with the '85 bears and the 2000 ravens, it HAS to be capped off with a championship or it all means nothing. I know my hawks will pull through. Here is to the start of a dynasty!
    -sorry for some stats being a rough estimate, I am using my phone which gives me difficulties if i keep trying to go back and forth from google to statcheck
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    We got the fast, KR type slot guys, we'll be a whole new beast!
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:I’ve heard some of you saying that kickoff coverage has been a major issue for the Broncos this year. In fact, as I look through the stat sheet, I noticed that during the regular season, Denver allowed an average of 29.3 yards/kickoff return (worst in the NFL in that category). As I mentioned above, it looks like Percy Harvin will probably be returning kicks in this game. Do you guys at all see kickoff coverage and overall starting field position being a potential issue for the Broncos in this game?


    It's possible. When Prater doesn't kick it out of the endzone, the Broncos struggle on coverage. I don't know what the Seahawks will do if they win the coin toss, but the Broncos always defer to the 2nd half. I doubt that Seattle wants to start in the hole, so I'm guessing that they'll go on offense first. We should find out early what's going to happen when Denver kicks off. Denver will have Holliday back on kickoff returns, so either team could score in that phase of the game.
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  • Question for Seahawks fans.
    It seems like you guys are pinning your offensive hopes on Harvin being a factor for Seattle. I understand that you traded a 1st and 3rd for him, but he hasn't been the same Percy Harvin that he was in Minnesota. Injuries have taken their toll on him. What makes you think he comes in and returns to form all of the sudden?
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  • BroncosFan wrote:
    Hawkscanner wrote:I’ve heard some of you saying that kickoff coverage has been a major issue for the Broncos this year. In fact, as I look through the stat sheet, I noticed that during the regular season, Denver allowed an average of 29.3 yards/kickoff return (worst in the NFL in that category). As I mentioned above, it looks like Percy Harvin will probably be returning kicks in this game. Do you guys at all see kickoff coverage and overall starting field position being a potential issue for the Broncos in this game?


    It's possible. When Prater doesn't kick it out of the endzone, the Broncos struggle on coverage. I don't know what the Seahawks will do if they win the coin toss, but the Broncos always defer to the 2nd half. I doubt that Seattle wants to start in the hole, so I'm guessing that they'll go on offense first. We should find out early what's going to happen when Denver kicks off. Denver will have Holliday back on kickoff returns, so either team could score in that phase of the game.


    Actually, when Seattle has won the coin toss this year they've chosen to defer to the 2nd Half most times as well. They've prefered to let their defense make a statement early -- especially when they've been playing at home. Now obviously we're not talking about this being a home venue at all, so it'll be interesting to see what Carroll decides to do if Seattle wins the toss. Still, if I were to guess, I'd say Seattle still defers to the 2nd Half.

    BroncosFan wrote:Question for Seahawks fans.
    It seems like you guys are pinning your offensive hopes on Harvin being a factor for Seattle. I understand that you traded a 1st and 3rd for him, but he hasn't been the same Percy Harvin that he was in Minnesota. Injuries have taken their toll on him. What makes you think he comes in and returns to form all of the sudden?


    Personally, I'm not pinning my offensive hopes on him at all. After all, we haven't had him basically all year long. We ended up tied for #8 in scoring (26.1 Pts/Game) WITHOUT Harvin. I'm merely saying I believe Harvin could be a factor in this game. And the reason for that optimism would be that the first time the ball was thrown to him in the Vikings game, this is what happened ...

    http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Percy-Harvins-first-catch-as-a-Seahawk/d6ae59e6-8f28-4014-a774-35f164ef0838

    Then he begged and pleaded to be put in there on kickoffs after Jermaine Kearse (who was returning kickoffs at that time) was knocked out of the game with a concussion. This is what happened when Carroll caved and put him in there ...

    http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Percy-Harvin-58-yard-kick-return/48d3ed8e-5438-47cd-bcb5-e205f26fd387

    It sure doesn't look to me like he was the walking wounded out there. That's the reason for optimism on my part at least.

    As far as my personal "hopes", those would be fairly well grounded in Marshawn Lynch. To me, he's the key to the game. If Seattle can get him going ... pound the rock, chew up that clock and keep Peyton Manning and Denver's offense off the field (I contend that's going to be Seattle's game plan), I'd say the Seahawks have a great shot at knocking off the Broncos.
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  • I think the game comes down to turnovers. Denver has not lost when tying or losing the turnover battle. They've won some games losing the turnover battle, including a -2 against SD in the first playoff game. Still no one has proven that they can beat Denver when we don't turn the ball over.

    The running game will be fun to watch. Denver and Seattle's defenses were both outstanding during the regular season allowing only 3.9 YPC. On offense, Seattle averaged 4.3 YPC on offense, while Denver ran the ball for 4.1 YPC (although as I posted earlier, it was a 4.4 YPC average over the last 8 games). The offensive lines will play a huge roll in general.

    When Denver has played running QB's this season, they have played a contain pass rush meaning less sacks, but the rushing DE's have held ground on the outside to keep the QB contained. You won't see Denver's edge rushers trying to get around the corner early on the tackles. I think they make Wilson beat us with his arm and not his legs.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:I think the game comes down to turnovers. Denver has not lost when tying or losing the turnover battle. They've won some games losing the turnover battle, including a -2 against SD in the first playoff game. Still no one has proven that they can beat Denver when we don't turn the ball over.


    Pete Carroll HATES turnovers on offense -- which is exactly why he runs the kind of offense that he does. He preaches over and over again (especially on the road) that his teams have to eliminate turnovers, take care of the ball, etc. That's his #1 Mantra when it comes to offense. And Seattle has done phenomenal in that dept. this year. They finished tied for 2nd in fewest turnovers on offense. That said, Marshawn Lynch has had a tendency at times to put the ball on the carpet. I'm hoping not in this case, but it's happened.

    On the flip side, the Broncos will be facing the NFL's #1 team in terms of creating turnovers. They are very, very good at it, taking the ball away 39 times on the season. So, yeah -- Peyton and the Denver offense is going to have to take care of the ball because despite what the stats might indicate, Seattle can be very dangerous on offense (especially if they're given a short field).

    BroncosFan wrote:The running game will be fun to watch. Denver and Seattle's defenses were both outstanding during the regular season allowing only 3.9 YPC. On offense, Seattle averaged 4.3 YPC on offense, while Denver ran the ball for 4.1 YPC (although as I posted earlier, it was a 4.4 YPC average over the last 8 games). The offensive lines will play a huge roll in general.


    Completely agreed that the OL's will be the deciding factor. Seattle's has played much better down the stretch now that they've finally got all their pieces back and have been playing together for a few weeks now. Should be interesting for sure.

    BroncosFan wrote:When Denver has played running QB's this season, they have played a contain pass rush meaning less sacks, but the rushing DE's have held ground on the outside to keep the QB contained. You won't see Denver's edge rushers trying to get around the corner early on the tackles. I think they make Wilson beat us with his arm and not his legs.


    As I mentioned, that formula you're talking about has proven to be somewhat successful, as opposing DB's have also been playing Seattle's WR's tight (since they haven't respected their speed in general). There really hasn't been anyone who could take a top off a defense, really fly down the sidelines, and make DB's back off until now. That's why I've been saying Percy Harvin is an X-Factor here. If he at all displays the kind of speed and moxie that he showed against Minnesota earlier this year, Russell Wilson could be seeing a lot more open receivers.
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  • Hi all from a Broncos/Colts/manning fan.

    A few thots

    1. Great thread. Been following for a few days and its quite refreshing and pleasing to see that most are keeping to the standards requested by the OP.

    2. I am not a big fan of using stats to analyze single games. I believe stats are good for trends and general conclusions, but less relevant when it comes to specific games.

    3. I think the game (and any game) will always come down to match-ups, game plan and game flow. To that end, will try to post what I think Denver's game plan would/should be on either side of the ball.

    4. Overall, any result is possible imo: Denver blowout, Seattle blowout or close game; low scoring or shoot out. Some may be more likely than others but none is impossible, and that is why they play the game.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:I’ve got a question for you Broncos fans that I’m going to premise with this ...

    As I'm sure you guys are all aware of, Percy Harvin has been practicing and it’s been announced that he'll play in the Super Bowl. When totally healthy, he is absolutely electric and is the kind of guy that can really take the top off a defense ...


    Harvin’s been out most of the year though, so what exactly Seattle is going to get out of him is a bit of a mystery. He missed all of training camp and most of the season due to hip surgery. He came back for the Vikings game, made some eye popping plays, but aggravated that hip and was on the shelf the rest of the regular season. He came back for the Saints Divisional game, but was knocked out of the game with a concussion in the 2nd Quarter. He’s reportedly healthy again, but he’s an X-Factor for sure.

    When he’s healthy, his speed, change of direction, athleticism, and overall skill and versatility can give opposing defensive coordinators fits. John Moffit (former Seahawk from last year's squad who was in training camp with the Hawks this year and ended up in Denver briefly) totally agrees with that assessment -- as he said that's Harvin's one of a handful of guys in the league who are truly special and can really alter a game.

    And we saw him do exactly that in the Minnesota game. When he came in the game, all of a sudden those CB's and Safeties started backing off. Former Seahawk Dave Wyman wrote a great piece for 710 ESPN after the Minnesota game in which he chronicled his observations of the effect Harvin had in that game. I'd highly recommend it ...

    The Percy Harvin Effect -- Dave Wyman

    When the Seahawks put him in on a kickoff in that Vikings game, this is what happened (click on link below for video clip) ...

    http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Percy-Harvin-58-yard-kick-return/48d3ed8e-5438-47cd-bcb5-e205f26fd387


    Coming in to this game, I know the Broncos secondary is pretty banged up. So my 2 part question I have for Broncos fans is this ...

    1) Do you see Percy Harvin changing the way that Jack Del Rio and the Broncos attack Seattle's Offense? If so, how?

    2) How do you believe Del Rio will look to defend against Harvin? Do they have the horses at this point in the season to effectively do so?



    Even if Harvin never catches a pass... his presence on the field is a big deal. With Seattle in 3 WR sets with Harvin... a linebacker will be out of the game in favor of a nickle DB. That DB will most likely have safety help over the top for fear of Harvin's deep speed.

    That in and of itself opens up the field for the other Wr's... but more crucially... Marshawn Lynch's running game. In recent games, that safety has been more concerned with Lynch, and has crept forward into the box. But with Harvin out there, that becomes a more risky "pick your poison" proposition. In this game, either Lynch is going to go off... or Harvin is going to catch some deep passes.

    Furthermore, Denver better be prepared for a bunch of fly sweeps, bubble screens, and read option plays involving Lynch, Wilson, and Harvin that haven't been seen on film much in recent weeks, (or all of this season for that matter). That is a biggest X factor. I think the Seattle offense is going to surprise a lot of people in this game.
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  • "The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays."

    Bad Idea. Watch the Saints first game versus the second. The Saints are an excellent screen team and they went nowhere vs. Seattle. Ramming the ball at them was much more effective, unless you fumble on the 20 and give them an easy TD.
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  • lengai wrote:"The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays."

    Bad Idea. Watch the Saints first game versus the second. The Saints are an excellent screen team and they went nowhere vs. Seattle. Ramming the ball at them was much more effective, unless you fumble on the 20 and give them an easy TD.


    If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:
    lengai wrote:"The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays."

    Bad Idea. Watch the Saints first game versus the second. The Saints are an excellent screen team and they went nowhere vs. Seattle. Ramming the ball at them was much more effective, unless you fumble on the 20 and give them an easy TD.


    If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.


    That only works if your opponent decides to play chess. By and large the Seattle defense doesn't. There isn't anything complicated about the Seattle defense but if you think it's easy to defeat this way, you are very much mistaken.

    To be sure, Peyton is great and Peyton will get his, but will he be able to throw into the teeth of Seattle's secondary under pressure and in tight windows error free for long, extended drives? That I doubt. Seattle is league best (IIRC) in both takeaway margins and forcing takeaways (especially picks).
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Come on guys. I'm trying to have a legit footbal discussion. Here, I'll go first: The broncos would trade Knowshon AND Monte Ball for Beast mode straight up, no prob.


    I truly LOL'd at this. Knownshon and Ball for Lynch? You really have Moreno overrated. And Ball is nothing.

    As for Percy for DT? I wouldn't take that trade. Our offense will rely on him too much vs. a deep threat like DT. Would love to have DT beside Harvin though.
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  • SonicHawk wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Come on guys. I'm trying to have a legit footbal discussion. Here, I'll go first: The broncos would trade Knowshon AND Monte Ball for Beast mode straight up, no prob.


    I truly LOL'd at this. Knownshon and Ball for Lynch? You really have Moreno overrated. And Ball is nothing.

    As for Percy for DT? I wouldn't take that trade. Our offense will rely on him too much vs. a deep threat like DT. Would love to have DT beside Harvin though.



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  • Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?
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  • BroncosFan wrote:If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.


    Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    Totally misleading stat.

    Much of their yards are gained against nickel and dime defenses, with Manning checking down to running plays (against 6 and 7-man boxes).

    The Seahawks' offense is predicated on their rushing attack, and opponents specifically gameplan to take their running game out by stacking the box with 8 or 9 players.

    This is not even taking into account the quality of defenses the Seahawks have played throughout the year vs the quality of defenses the Broncos have played, which have been clearly inferior.
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    Totally misleading stat.

    Much of their yards are gained against nickel and dime defenses, with Manning checking down to running plays (against 6 and 7-man boxes).

    The Seahawks' offense is predicated on their rushing attack, and opponents specifically gameplan to take their running game out by stacking the box with 8 or 9 players.

    This is not even taking into account the quality of defenses the Seahawks have played throughout the year vs the quality of defenses the Broncos have played, which have been clearly inferior.


    Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.
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  • Hey Broncos Fans,

    Thanks for a great week of discussions this week so far. I've got a couple of related questions for you this morning ...

    1) How has Champ Bailey looked out there during the times he's had to play? Has he still got a lot of the same skills that once made him elite ... or has he clearly lost a step or two?

    2) If you would be so kind, give Seahawks fans a breakdown of the rest of Denver's secondary as it currently stands. (those we should anticipate seeing this Sunday) -- strengths, weaknesses, matchups you anticipate, and so on.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.


    No, not the same thing. Hard to be a homer about a player who only played a handful of snaps for your team. I can look at both players objectively, and I absolutely would not trade Percy for DT.

    DT is a tall, athletic receiver, lacking in physicality. Percy is a shorter, faster, quicker, more physical receiver who can make plays in the receiving game, running game, and special teams.

    There really is no comparison. The only mitigating factor would be health and longevity, which is a big unknown at this point. Percy came off what was nearly a season-ending injury. We'll see how 2014 pans out for him.
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.


    No, not the same thing. Hard to be a homer about a player who only played a handful of snaps for your team. I can look at both players objectively, and I absolutely would not trade Percy for DT.

    DT is a tall, athletic receiver, lacking in physicality. Percy is a shorter, faster, quicker, more physical receiver who can make plays in the receiving game, running game, and special teams.

    There really is no comparison. The only mitigating factor would be health and longevity, which is a big unknown at this point. Percy came off what was nearly a season-ending injury. We'll see how 2014 pans out for him.


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  • Mindsink wrote:Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.

    You always play 'chess' on the field (whether you want to or not) as there is no perfect offense or defense. That is why teams use different personnel packages, schemes and/or play calls.

    Yes there are base schemes and the seahawks typically dont do anything exotic, but how they play on defense is predicated on what they think the offense is trying to do. In fact, a lot of the schemes employed by the seahawks is aimed at making the defense play more proactive and less reactive cos a reactive defense is easy pickings for a quality QB and decent weapons.

    If the seahawks didnt play 'chess', Bobby Wagner wldnt need to communicate with Norton.
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  • Omaha wrote:
    Mindsink wrote:Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.

    You always play 'chess' on the field (whether you want to or not) as there is no perfect offense or defense. That is why teams use different personnel packages, schemes and/or play calls.

    Yes there are base schemes and the seahawks typically dont do anything exotic, but how they play on defense is predicated on what they think the offense is trying to do. In fact, a lot of the schemes employed by the seahawks is aimed at making the defense play more proactive and less reactive cos a reactive defense is easy pickings for a quality QB and decent weapons.

    If the seahawks didnt play 'chess', Bobby Wagner wldnt need to communicate with Norton.


    That isn't really true. Of course both sides will have signals and communicate, and of course there is some strategy involved on both sides, but that isn't what we're talking about. The comment was blithely made that if Peyton sees a screen won't work, he'll audible out of it. The problem with that statement is that assumes Peyton will see a screen won't work because he sees a bad defensive scheme that prevents it.

    That's not how Seattle's D works. The problem with Seattle is that Seattle is the league leader in both defensing screen passes AND yards-after-catch as well, and the two are completely related and based on the athleticism and discipline of Seattle's linebackers....and based on the fact that Seattle puts an extra man in the box very frequently but blitzes very infrequently. This isn't a matter of a chess match. It's a matter of beating the men and the defense, yes or no.

    For all the strategy involved, Football fundamentally isn't chess. It's about players making plays, and Seattle's defense isn't predicated on beating oppoents with scheme. Instead it's about making a couple of extremely good schemes (for the personelle) work to their maximum effectiveness with raw ability and skill. There's not much Peyton can do about that.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:Hey Broncos Fans,

    Thanks for a great week of discussions this week so far. I've got a couple of related questions for you this morning ...

    1) How has Champ Bailey looked out there during the times he's had to play? Has he still got a lot of the same skills that once made him elite ... or has he clearly lost a step or two?

    Champ had a poor season struggling with his injury but has been quite solid in the slot since he got back. He was on limited snaps for the Chargers game, but was full throttle for the Pats game. He has lost a step or two (or maybe three :) ) but he makes up for it with game savy and technique. We dont want him one on one with a burner WR on a go route, but he can blanket most receivers in the shallow routes
    2) If you would be so kind, give Seahawks fans a breakdown of the rest of Denver's secondary as it currently stands. (those we should anticipate seeing this Sunday) -- strengths, weaknesses, matchups you anticipate, and so on.


    We play man-coverage and our top CBs are: DRC, Bailey, Carter and Webster.

    RCB (left side of offense): DRC is our best Corner and is the closest thing we have to a shutdown CB. He has the physical tools (speed, height, length etc) to match-up with almost any receiver and reads the QB well making him a threat for a pick 6. But he is not so good tackling in open field and his eagerness to jump the route for an INT sometimes ends up leaving his man wide open. I expect him to get Percy on a few occasions and would be interesting to see how that goes. I expect DRC to shut him down in coverage but Percy having the edge if he catches the ball off the line of scrimmage (e.g. on a screen play)

    Slot: Bailey plays in the slot in our nickel package, and could probably still play on the outside against a slower WR. He is a very good tackler and good shedding blocks (which helps defend the run in a nickel package) and has a wealth of experience to rely on. He reads routes and diagnoses plays very well.

    LCB: Choice of Carter or Webster depends on opposition - Carter is faster but webster is bigger and more physical. Against seahawks I expect to see webster because of beast mode (cos a stiff arm from lynch cld send Carter all the way back to denver). Webster is a rookie, with good physical tools and potential, but his inexperience has led to a few QBs picking on him. Also he broke his thumb in the second chargers game which also limited him a bit. He should be ready to go for Sunday and I dont think Wilson has the experience+weapons to pick on him like some other QBs did in the past

    SS: Duke Ihenacho (Nacho) is 6-1, 205lbs and your typical hard hitting enforcer. Has great closing speed and a good tackler but can struggle in pass coverage. Think he has a lot of potential if he can clean up his game and improve his pass coverage. Looking to see how he does against Lynch as I expect him to drop into the box often.

    FS: Mike Adams is good but at 32, he is not as fast as one would like. He makes up for it with experience. He has played CB before and reads plays well (see the INT against houston)

    In clear passing downs, Omar Bolden would come on for Nacho. Adams would shift to SS while Bolden plays FS. Bolden is ok in my opinion but not starter quality.
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  • Polaris wrote:That isn't really true. Of course both sides will have signals and communicate, and of course there is some strategy involved on both sides, but that isn't what we're talking about. The comment was blithely made that if Peyton sees a screen won't work, he'll audible out of it. The problem with that statement is that assumes Peyton will see a screen won't work because he sees a bad defensive scheme that prevents it.

    That's not how Seattle's D works. The problem with Seattle is that Seattle is the league leader in both defensing screen passes AND yards-after-catch as well, and the two are completely related and based on the athleticism and discipline of Seattle's linebackers....and based on the fact that Seattle puts an extra man in the box very frequently but blitzes very infrequently. This isn't a matter of a chess match. It's a matter of beating the men and the defense, yes or no.

    For all the strategy involved, Football fundamentally isn't chess. It's about players making plays, and Seattle's defense isn't predicated on beating oppoents with scheme. Instead it's about making a couple of extremely good schemes (for the personelle) work to their maximum effectiveness with raw ability and skill. There's not much Peyton can do about that.
    I would say no, cos defending a screen play is different from defending a normal pass.

    So lets start with the basic question then: assuming we all know the premise of the typical screen play, how do the Seahawks approach defending it vs a normal passing play? If there is little difference on how the defense approaches both then I will accept your point that it is just a case of execution, but if there is a difference, then the point remains that there is a 'chess match' going on in which the defense tries to diagnose what is coming from the offense and vice versa. Uncertainty is the biggest disadvantage against the defense e.g. the WR knows where he is going but the CB can only guess and try to stay as close as possible.

    Football is not chess. Am sure you know the phrase "chess match" simply points to a battle of wits and strategy, which is definitely a part of all football games at this level. Teams watch film and game plan for this very reason, otherwise Seattle need not prepare for a specific opponent/play and should just go out there and play their game (cos according to you its all about execution). Yes the player still have to execute, but you have to execute the right play. That does not preclude the chess match but complements it.
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  • Its hard for fans to be objective. I think Seattle has a great chance of winning the game and I hope with all my might that they will, but I have to prepare myself for the fact that they may lose. If I'm being honest, I think there is a 60/40 chance that the Hawks win. In preparing myself for the 40% chance that we may lose, and in order to avoid some of the misery that may await, I try to identify areas where we are weak so that I'm not as disappointed when I see those areas exploited. In this process, I've identified the following weaknesses that I've prepared myself for the Broncos to exploit:

    1. Penalties--we are the league's most penalized team and the penalties always seem to come at crucial time in the game to wipe out a huge gain or to take us from 3rd and short to 3rd and forever. PI penalties have also been a problem this year. Penalties can disrupt the flow of the game and frustrate the players into making mistakes. Given that Peyton Manning is the NFL darling, and we have been labled the "bad guys", I see a lot of close calls going Denver's way. This is bad, as we are a physical team and if they call this game with ticky-tac penalties, we could be in for a bad night. I'm preparing myself for this to happen so I don't break my TV, throw things, or embarrass myself and my family.

    2. Dink-and-dunk passing game--Peyton Manning is the best in the NFL, probably the best ever, at throwing his receivers open on short routes. I'm preparing myself to accept that Manning will find holes, especially over the middle in the short passing game, if we play our soft zone coverage. Our LBs have become a lot better over the course of the year in covering these short passing routes by slot receivers or Tight Ends over the course of the year, but I'm still worried about the infamous Julius Thomas and Wes Welker rub-routes and quick hits. I'm not as worried about deep throws as I am about the short passing game attack. Welker burned us for 138 yards when we played the Patriots last year and he may be able to do it again (we still won though, against the Patriots).

    3. The running game--I'm telling you that if I were game-planning against the Seahawks, I would run the ball more often than not. We are susceptible to big runs. See Kap, Eddie Lacey, and DeAngelo Williams running against us. We can get gashed in the running attack if a back is having a good day.

    4. Delayed Blitzes--Its no secret that Russell Wilson tends to hold on to the ball too long at times. When he does, a delayed blitz is really effective at sacking him for a loss. If I'm game-planning against Russell Wilson, I use an LB to spy him and after a two second delay, I blitz the LB every time. Teams that do this have success at getting to Wilson. If you send a blitzing LB right away, Russell will have time to read it and has had success killing the blitz. The delay is the key.

    Despite the above methods that Denver could use to beat Seattle, I still give the Seahawks a 60% chance of winning. I'm more confident in my QB than any of the media people I've heard and I'm still confident that Manning will not have as much success against Seattle as he's had against other, less dominant defenses I'm preparing myself though, just in case.
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  • Omaha wrote:So lets start with the basic question then: assuming we all know the premise of the typical screen play, how do the Seahawks approach defending it vs a normal passing play? If there is little difference on how the defense approaches both then I will accept your point that it is just a case of execution, but if there is a difference, then the point remains that there is a 'chess match' going on in which the defense tries to diagnose what is coming from the offense and vice versa. Uncertainty is the biggest disadvantage against the defense e.g. the WR knows where he is going but the CB can only guess and try to stay as close as possible.


    Near as I can tell, the 'hawks don't specifically defense the screen pass differently than a normal pass. Rather the way the Seattle defense is structured makes it extremely difficult to run a screen pass of any kind successfully against them. It might not look that way, but when Seattle runs their press-Triangle zone with LB's bailing underneath, the sheer speed of Seattle's LBers snuff out screens often for losses (and for small gains at worst). It's the same reason why Seattle is so good when it comes to yards after catch. This isn't high strategy. It's simply an overall matchup and athleticism thing. You will also notice on film that Seattle doesn't blitz very much either....and typically rush four...but it's often an 'exotic' four (and that part Peyton could read).

    I am not taking away anything from Peyton. All I'm saying is Seattle plays defense in a way that minimizes the advantages that he brings to the field. To put it very (perhaps too) simply, there isn't much strategy involved in beating a bulldozer. Either you can beat it or you don't.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:
    lengai wrote:"The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays."

    Bad Idea. Watch the Saints first game versus the second. The Saints are an excellent screen team and they went nowhere vs. Seattle. Ramming the ball at them was much more effective, unless you fumble on the 20 and give them an easy TD.


    If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.


    And if we give him nothing? Just kidding. This is going to be a great game. Great matchups on all sides of the ball. I will be very disappointed if this becomes a blowout...Unless of course the Hawks win? :)

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  • Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?
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  • hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    All I need to say is "strength of opponent". Just in our division we have 6 games a year against the best defenses in the league. Comparing how Denver did against weak opponents to how the Hawks fared against the best is meaningless. There is a reason many people said that NFC Championship was the real Super Bowl.

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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    Over-rated, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!

    It's not hard to block for a QB that gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds on average. Problem is, it will take your receivers longer than 2.5 seconds to get open vs our coverage.

    On the flip side, Russell Wilson is known for holding the ball for too long. Such are the woes of being a 2nd year QB.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    So what? Do I wish that out line was better as pass-pro? Sure. However, Wilson is able to deal with a certain degree of pressure....and no your D-Line does not measure up to the D-Lines that Seattle has faced lately.

    However, Peyton is a statue in the pocket, and Seattle's D-Line is one of the best at generating pressure (not just sacks, but hits and hurries) along with a press defense that slows down how fast receivers get open....and calls for strong, pinpoint throws that Peyton has had trouble with of late. Peyton's throws are fast and accurate and on-time, but he throws ducks. That won't work against Seattle...at least not consistantly. This is where the quality of opponent's defence(s) makes a big difference.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    So what? Do I wish that out line was better as pass-pro? Sure. However, Wilson is able to deal with a certain degree of pressure....and no your D-Line does not measure up to the D-Lines that Seattle has faced lately.

    However, Peyton is a statue in the pocket, and Seattle's D-Line is one of the best at generating pressure (not just sacks, but hits and hurries) along with a press defense that slows down how fast receivers get open....and calls for strong, pinpoint throws that Peyton has had trouble with of late. Peyton's throws are fast and accurate and on-time, but he throws ducks. That won't work against Seattle...at least not consistantly. This is where the quality of opponent's defence(s) makes a big difference.


    Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.


    Actually Football Outsiders measures pass defense for d-lines in adjusted sack rate not DVOA, and Seattle's rate is 7.6% which is ABOVE that of NE, SD, and Indy all of who beat you.

    The difference is that Seattle also please a press coverage that has given your team fits and is far and away the best secondary Peyton has faced. Either Payton can't get it off as quickly (which will give the rush time to force him off his spot) OR he'll throw a lot into very tight windows and ultimately made a bad throw. In fact we did see some of that in the preseason where our ones faced each other. Peyton was able to have some success....but he also threw a couple of 'poor' passes and it cost him. I expect the same this Sunday.
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  • Basing anything on the 2nd preseason game is laughable. I think we're all smart enough to know that both teams are different than the ones that played in that game. I believe Denver has 8 different starters than they put out on the field that game. Can we end the "But in the preseason game......." nonsense? It's just silly, and the folks on this board are too smart for the most part to base anything on it.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:Basing anything on the 2nd preseason game is laughable. I think we're all smart enough to know that both teams are different than the ones that played in that game. I believe Denver has 8 different starters than they put out on the field that game. Can we end the "But in the preseason game......." nonsense? It's just silly, and the folks on this board are too smart for the most part to base anything on it.


    I disagree. I don't think it's laughable. For that matter I am in good company. Coach Fox even said there was useful information to be gleaned from that game. So it's useful and not silly. Now, is that information of limited use? Sure. Is it absolutely predictive? No. However, that games remains the best indicator of how each team's respective schemes match against the other.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.


    Actually Football Outsiders measures pass defense for d-lines in adjusted sack rate not DVOA, and Seattle's rate is 7.6% which is ABOVE that of NE, SD, and Indy all of who beat you.

    The difference is that Seattle also please a press coverage that has given your team fits and is far and away the best secondary Peyton has faced. Either Payton can't get it off as quickly (which will give the rush time to force him off his spot) OR he'll throw a lot into very tight windows and ultimately made a bad throw. In fact we did see some of that in the preseason where our ones faced each other. Peyton was able to have some success....but he also threw a couple of 'poor' passes and it cost him. I expect the same this Sunday.


    Like I said, you don't see it coming.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.


    You haven't seen a secondary that's anything near as good as Seattle's and the way Seattle does it HELPS the rush get there. What Indy did to you earlier in the year is just a shadow of this. Your receivers are vulnerable to the way Seattle plays defense. That's not just me saying that either.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ius-thomas
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.


    You haven't seen a secondary that's anything near as good as Seattle's and the way Seattle does it HELPS the rush get there. What Indy did to you earlier in the year is just a shadow of this. Your receivers are vulnerable to the way Seattle plays defense. That's not just me saying that either.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ius-thomas


    That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?
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  • Eldorado wrote:That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?


    You should read the story. It concentrates on one guy, but it also describes the Bronco's offense in general. I am not quesitoning that the Broncos have the number one offense. I merely observe that the Broncos have struggled and struggled badly against defenses that use elements of what Seattle does all the time....and those teams don't do it nearly as well as Seattle. It is what it is.
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