Q&A w/Broncos & Seahawks Fans -- Super Bowl Preview ...

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  • SonicHawk wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Come on guys. I'm trying to have a legit footbal discussion. Here, I'll go first: The broncos would trade Knowshon AND Monte Ball for Beast mode straight up, no prob.


    I truly LOL'd at this. Knownshon and Ball for Lynch? You really have Moreno overrated. And Ball is nothing.

    As for Percy for DT? I wouldn't take that trade. Our offense will rely on him too much vs. a deep threat like DT. Would love to have DT beside Harvin though.



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  • Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?
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  • BroncosFan wrote:If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.


    Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    Totally misleading stat.

    Much of their yards are gained against nickel and dime defenses, with Manning checking down to running plays (against 6 and 7-man boxes).

    The Seahawks' offense is predicated on their rushing attack, and opponents specifically gameplan to take their running game out by stacking the box with 8 or 9 players.

    This is not even taking into account the quality of defenses the Seahawks have played throughout the year vs the quality of defenses the Broncos have played, which have been clearly inferior.
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    Totally misleading stat.

    Much of their yards are gained against nickel and dime defenses, with Manning checking down to running plays (against 6 and 7-man boxes).

    The Seahawks' offense is predicated on their rushing attack, and opponents specifically gameplan to take their running game out by stacking the box with 8 or 9 players.

    This is not even taking into account the quality of defenses the Seahawks have played throughout the year vs the quality of defenses the Broncos have played, which have been clearly inferior.


    Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.
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  • Hey Broncos Fans,

    Thanks for a great week of discussions this week so far. I've got a couple of related questions for you this morning ...

    1) How has Champ Bailey looked out there during the times he's had to play? Has he still got a lot of the same skills that once made him elite ... or has he clearly lost a step or two?

    2) If you would be so kind, give Seahawks fans a breakdown of the rest of Denver's secondary as it currently stands. (those we should anticipate seeing this Sunday) -- strengths, weaknesses, matchups you anticipate, and so on.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.


    No, not the same thing. Hard to be a homer about a player who only played a handful of snaps for your team. I can look at both players objectively, and I absolutely would not trade Percy for DT.

    DT is a tall, athletic receiver, lacking in physicality. Percy is a shorter, faster, quicker, more physical receiver who can make plays in the receiving game, running game, and special teams.

    There really is no comparison. The only mitigating factor would be health and longevity, which is a big unknown at this point. Percy came off what was nearly a season-ending injury. We'll see how 2014 pans out for him.
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Exactly. And only a homer would say they'd take knowshon & ball over Marshawn and turbin. Or Percy over DT. Same thing.


    No, not the same thing. Hard to be a homer about a player who only played a handful of snaps for your team. I can look at both players objectively, and I absolutely would not trade Percy for DT.

    DT is a tall, athletic receiver, lacking in physicality. Percy is a shorter, faster, quicker, more physical receiver who can make plays in the receiving game, running game, and special teams.

    There really is no comparison. The only mitigating factor would be health and longevity, which is a big unknown at this point. Percy came off what was nearly a season-ending injury. We'll see how 2014 pans out for him.


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  • Mindsink wrote:Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.

    You always play 'chess' on the field (whether you want to or not) as there is no perfect offense or defense. That is why teams use different personnel packages, schemes and/or play calls.

    Yes there are base schemes and the seahawks typically dont do anything exotic, but how they play on defense is predicated on what they think the offense is trying to do. In fact, a lot of the schemes employed by the seahawks is aimed at making the defense play more proactive and less reactive cos a reactive defense is easy pickings for a quality QB and decent weapons.

    If the seahawks didnt play 'chess', Bobby Wagner wldnt need to communicate with Norton.
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  • Omaha wrote:
    Mindsink wrote:Everything you say about Manning is true. However...

    Chess is a game of pure strategy. The pieces on the chess board do not have to execute on the field of play.

    The problem that the Broncos offense will face is that when you move your Knight to take my Bishop, my Bishop can fight back and win.

    In other words, the Seahawks don't, and won't disguise coverage, dial up fancy blitzes, or anything in an attempt to outwit Peyton Manning. If you get into a battle of wits with Manning, you will more often than not lose. Instead, the Seahawks defense will do what it has been doing all year. That is, they will show you their hand, and say "now see if you can beat us". They will beat you with power, speed, and technique.

    You always play 'chess' on the field (whether you want to or not) as there is no perfect offense or defense. That is why teams use different personnel packages, schemes and/or play calls.

    Yes there are base schemes and the seahawks typically dont do anything exotic, but how they play on defense is predicated on what they think the offense is trying to do. In fact, a lot of the schemes employed by the seahawks is aimed at making the defense play more proactive and less reactive cos a reactive defense is easy pickings for a quality QB and decent weapons.

    If the seahawks didnt play 'chess', Bobby Wagner wldnt need to communicate with Norton.


    That isn't really true. Of course both sides will have signals and communicate, and of course there is some strategy involved on both sides, but that isn't what we're talking about. The comment was blithely made that if Peyton sees a screen won't work, he'll audible out of it. The problem with that statement is that assumes Peyton will see a screen won't work because he sees a bad defensive scheme that prevents it.

    That's not how Seattle's D works. The problem with Seattle is that Seattle is the league leader in both defensing screen passes AND yards-after-catch as well, and the two are completely related and based on the athleticism and discipline of Seattle's linebackers....and based on the fact that Seattle puts an extra man in the box very frequently but blitzes very infrequently. This isn't a matter of a chess match. It's a matter of beating the men and the defense, yes or no.

    For all the strategy involved, Football fundamentally isn't chess. It's about players making plays, and Seattle's defense isn't predicated on beating oppoents with scheme. Instead it's about making a couple of extremely good schemes (for the personelle) work to their maximum effectiveness with raw ability and skill. There's not much Peyton can do about that.
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  • Hawkscanner wrote:Hey Broncos Fans,

    Thanks for a great week of discussions this week so far. I've got a couple of related questions for you this morning ...

    1) How has Champ Bailey looked out there during the times he's had to play? Has he still got a lot of the same skills that once made him elite ... or has he clearly lost a step or two?

    Champ had a poor season struggling with his injury but has been quite solid in the slot since he got back. He was on limited snaps for the Chargers game, but was full throttle for the Pats game. He has lost a step or two (or maybe three :) ) but he makes up for it with game savy and technique. We dont want him one on one with a burner WR on a go route, but he can blanket most receivers in the shallow routes
    2) If you would be so kind, give Seahawks fans a breakdown of the rest of Denver's secondary as it currently stands. (those we should anticipate seeing this Sunday) -- strengths, weaknesses, matchups you anticipate, and so on.


    We play man-coverage and our top CBs are: DRC, Bailey, Carter and Webster.

    RCB (left side of offense): DRC is our best Corner and is the closest thing we have to a shutdown CB. He has the physical tools (speed, height, length etc) to match-up with almost any receiver and reads the QB well making him a threat for a pick 6. But he is not so good tackling in open field and his eagerness to jump the route for an INT sometimes ends up leaving his man wide open. I expect him to get Percy on a few occasions and would be interesting to see how that goes. I expect DRC to shut him down in coverage but Percy having the edge if he catches the ball off the line of scrimmage (e.g. on a screen play)

    Slot: Bailey plays in the slot in our nickel package, and could probably still play on the outside against a slower WR. He is a very good tackler and good shedding blocks (which helps defend the run in a nickel package) and has a wealth of experience to rely on. He reads routes and diagnoses plays very well.

    LCB: Choice of Carter or Webster depends on opposition - Carter is faster but webster is bigger and more physical. Against seahawks I expect to see webster because of beast mode (cos a stiff arm from lynch cld send Carter all the way back to denver). Webster is a rookie, with good physical tools and potential, but his inexperience has led to a few QBs picking on him. Also he broke his thumb in the second chargers game which also limited him a bit. He should be ready to go for Sunday and I dont think Wilson has the experience+weapons to pick on him like some other QBs did in the past

    SS: Duke Ihenacho (Nacho) is 6-1, 205lbs and your typical hard hitting enforcer. Has great closing speed and a good tackler but can struggle in pass coverage. Think he has a lot of potential if he can clean up his game and improve his pass coverage. Looking to see how he does against Lynch as I expect him to drop into the box often.

    FS: Mike Adams is good but at 32, he is not as fast as one would like. He makes up for it with experience. He has played CB before and reads plays well (see the INT against houston)

    In clear passing downs, Omar Bolden would come on for Nacho. Adams would shift to SS while Bolden plays FS. Bolden is ok in my opinion but not starter quality.
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  • Polaris wrote:That isn't really true. Of course both sides will have signals and communicate, and of course there is some strategy involved on both sides, but that isn't what we're talking about. The comment was blithely made that if Peyton sees a screen won't work, he'll audible out of it. The problem with that statement is that assumes Peyton will see a screen won't work because he sees a bad defensive scheme that prevents it.

    That's not how Seattle's D works. The problem with Seattle is that Seattle is the league leader in both defensing screen passes AND yards-after-catch as well, and the two are completely related and based on the athleticism and discipline of Seattle's linebackers....and based on the fact that Seattle puts an extra man in the box very frequently but blitzes very infrequently. This isn't a matter of a chess match. It's a matter of beating the men and the defense, yes or no.

    For all the strategy involved, Football fundamentally isn't chess. It's about players making plays, and Seattle's defense isn't predicated on beating oppoents with scheme. Instead it's about making a couple of extremely good schemes (for the personelle) work to their maximum effectiveness with raw ability and skill. There's not much Peyton can do about that.
    I would say no, cos defending a screen play is different from defending a normal pass.

    So lets start with the basic question then: assuming we all know the premise of the typical screen play, how do the Seahawks approach defending it vs a normal passing play? If there is little difference on how the defense approaches both then I will accept your point that it is just a case of execution, but if there is a difference, then the point remains that there is a 'chess match' going on in which the defense tries to diagnose what is coming from the offense and vice versa. Uncertainty is the biggest disadvantage against the defense e.g. the WR knows where he is going but the CB can only guess and try to stay as close as possible.

    Football is not chess. Am sure you know the phrase "chess match" simply points to a battle of wits and strategy, which is definitely a part of all football games at this level. Teams watch film and game plan for this very reason, otherwise Seattle need not prepare for a specific opponent/play and should just go out there and play their game (cos according to you its all about execution). Yes the player still have to execute, but you have to execute the right play. That does not preclude the chess match but complements it.
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  • Its hard for fans to be objective. I think Seattle has a great chance of winning the game and I hope with all my might that they will, but I have to prepare myself for the fact that they may lose. If I'm being honest, I think there is a 60/40 chance that the Hawks win. In preparing myself for the 40% chance that we may lose, and in order to avoid some of the misery that may await, I try to identify areas where we are weak so that I'm not as disappointed when I see those areas exploited. In this process, I've identified the following weaknesses that I've prepared myself for the Broncos to exploit:

    1. Penalties--we are the league's most penalized team and the penalties always seem to come at crucial time in the game to wipe out a huge gain or to take us from 3rd and short to 3rd and forever. PI penalties have also been a problem this year. Penalties can disrupt the flow of the game and frustrate the players into making mistakes. Given that Peyton Manning is the NFL darling, and we have been labled the "bad guys", I see a lot of close calls going Denver's way. This is bad, as we are a physical team and if they call this game with ticky-tac penalties, we could be in for a bad night. I'm preparing myself for this to happen so I don't break my TV, throw things, or embarrass myself and my family.

    2. Dink-and-dunk passing game--Peyton Manning is the best in the NFL, probably the best ever, at throwing his receivers open on short routes. I'm preparing myself to accept that Manning will find holes, especially over the middle in the short passing game, if we play our soft zone coverage. Our LBs have become a lot better over the course of the year in covering these short passing routes by slot receivers or Tight Ends over the course of the year, but I'm still worried about the infamous Julius Thomas and Wes Welker rub-routes and quick hits. I'm not as worried about deep throws as I am about the short passing game attack. Welker burned us for 138 yards when we played the Patriots last year and he may be able to do it again (we still won though, against the Patriots).

    3. The running game--I'm telling you that if I were game-planning against the Seahawks, I would run the ball more often than not. We are susceptible to big runs. See Kap, Eddie Lacey, and DeAngelo Williams running against us. We can get gashed in the running attack if a back is having a good day.

    4. Delayed Blitzes--Its no secret that Russell Wilson tends to hold on to the ball too long at times. When he does, a delayed blitz is really effective at sacking him for a loss. If I'm game-planning against Russell Wilson, I use an LB to spy him and after a two second delay, I blitz the LB every time. Teams that do this have success at getting to Wilson. If you send a blitzing LB right away, Russell will have time to read it and has had success killing the blitz. The delay is the key.

    Despite the above methods that Denver could use to beat Seattle, I still give the Seahawks a 60% chance of winning. I'm more confident in my QB than any of the media people I've heard and I'm still confident that Manning will not have as much success against Seattle as he's had against other, less dominant defenses I'm preparing myself though, just in case.
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  • Omaha wrote:So lets start with the basic question then: assuming we all know the premise of the typical screen play, how do the Seahawks approach defending it vs a normal passing play? If there is little difference on how the defense approaches both then I will accept your point that it is just a case of execution, but if there is a difference, then the point remains that there is a 'chess match' going on in which the defense tries to diagnose what is coming from the offense and vice versa. Uncertainty is the biggest disadvantage against the defense e.g. the WR knows where he is going but the CB can only guess and try to stay as close as possible.


    Near as I can tell, the 'hawks don't specifically defense the screen pass differently than a normal pass. Rather the way the Seattle defense is structured makes it extremely difficult to run a screen pass of any kind successfully against them. It might not look that way, but when Seattle runs their press-Triangle zone with LB's bailing underneath, the sheer speed of Seattle's LBers snuff out screens often for losses (and for small gains at worst). It's the same reason why Seattle is so good when it comes to yards after catch. This isn't high strategy. It's simply an overall matchup and athleticism thing. You will also notice on film that Seattle doesn't blitz very much either....and typically rush four...but it's often an 'exotic' four (and that part Peyton could read).

    I am not taking away anything from Peyton. All I'm saying is Seattle plays defense in a way that minimizes the advantages that he brings to the field. To put it very (perhaps too) simply, there isn't much strategy involved in beating a bulldozer. Either you can beat it or you don't.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:
    lengai wrote:"The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays."

    Bad Idea. Watch the Saints first game versus the second. The Saints are an excellent screen team and they went nowhere vs. Seattle. Ramming the ball at them was much more effective, unless you fumble on the 20 and give them an easy TD.


    If the screen isn't there, Manning will audible out. The Broncos offense is the most complex offense in the NFL. They can simply attack an opposing D in so many ways. Manning will take what the defense gives him, and most plays will be audibled into. It will be a chess match with Manning being the only Grandmaster on the field, having the ability to change the board any way he wants to before the snap.


    And if we give him nothing? Just kidding. This is going to be a great game. Great matchups on all sides of the ball. I will be very disappointed if this becomes a blowout...Unless of course the Hawks win? :)

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  • Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?
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  • hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    All I need to say is "strength of opponent". Just in our division we have 6 games a year against the best defenses in the league. Comparing how Denver did against weak opponents to how the Hawks fared against the best is meaningless. There is a reason many people said that NFC Championship was the real Super Bowl.

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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    Over-rated, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!

    It's not hard to block for a QB that gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds on average. Problem is, it will take your receivers longer than 2.5 seconds to get open vs our coverage.

    On the flip side, Russell Wilson is known for holding the ball for too long. Such are the woes of being a 2nd year QB.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    So what? Do I wish that out line was better as pass-pro? Sure. However, Wilson is able to deal with a certain degree of pressure....and no your D-Line does not measure up to the D-Lines that Seattle has faced lately.

    However, Peyton is a statue in the pocket, and Seattle's D-Line is one of the best at generating pressure (not just sacks, but hits and hurries) along with a press defense that slows down how fast receivers get open....and calls for strong, pinpoint throws that Peyton has had trouble with of late. Peyton's throws are fast and accurate and on-time, but he throws ducks. That won't work against Seattle...at least not consistantly. This is where the quality of opponent's defence(s) makes a big difference.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?


    So what? Do I wish that out line was better as pass-pro? Sure. However, Wilson is able to deal with a certain degree of pressure....and no your D-Line does not measure up to the D-Lines that Seattle has faced lately.

    However, Peyton is a statue in the pocket, and Seattle's D-Line is one of the best at generating pressure (not just sacks, but hits and hurries) along with a press defense that slows down how fast receivers get open....and calls for strong, pinpoint throws that Peyton has had trouble with of late. Peyton's throws are fast and accurate and on-time, but he throws ducks. That won't work against Seattle...at least not consistantly. This is where the quality of opponent's defence(s) makes a big difference.


    Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.


    Actually Football Outsiders measures pass defense for d-lines in adjusted sack rate not DVOA, and Seattle's rate is 7.6% which is ABOVE that of NE, SD, and Indy all of who beat you.

    The difference is that Seattle also please a press coverage that has given your team fits and is far and away the best secondary Peyton has faced. Either Payton can't get it off as quickly (which will give the rush time to force him off his spot) OR he'll throw a lot into very tight windows and ultimately made a bad throw. In fact we did see some of that in the preseason where our ones faced each other. Peyton was able to have some success....but he also threw a couple of 'poor' passes and it cost him. I expect the same this Sunday.
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  • Basing anything on the 2nd preseason game is laughable. I think we're all smart enough to know that both teams are different than the ones that played in that game. I believe Denver has 8 different starters than they put out on the field that game. Can we end the "But in the preseason game......." nonsense? It's just silly, and the folks on this board are too smart for the most part to base anything on it.
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  • BroncosFan wrote:Basing anything on the 2nd preseason game is laughable. I think we're all smart enough to know that both teams are different than the ones that played in that game. I believe Denver has 8 different starters than they put out on the field that game. Can we end the "But in the preseason game......." nonsense? It's just silly, and the folks on this board are too smart for the most part to base anything on it.


    I disagree. I don't think it's laughable. For that matter I am in good company. Coach Fox even said there was useful information to be gleaned from that game. So it's useful and not silly. Now, is that information of limited use? Sure. Is it absolutely predictive? No. However, that games remains the best indicator of how each team's respective schemes match against the other.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Purportedly, Seattle's D starts with great pressure from the front four. Seattle's dline isn't even in the top 5 of dvoa pass rush and denvers oline is THE BEST at pass blocking. This is the match up I don't think you see coming.


    Actually Football Outsiders measures pass defense for d-lines in adjusted sack rate not DVOA, and Seattle's rate is 7.6% which is ABOVE that of NE, SD, and Indy all of who beat you.

    The difference is that Seattle also please a press coverage that has given your team fits and is far and away the best secondary Peyton has faced. Either Payton can't get it off as quickly (which will give the rush time to force him off his spot) OR he'll throw a lot into very tight windows and ultimately made a bad throw. In fact we did see some of that in the preseason where our ones faced each other. Peyton was able to have some success....but he also threw a couple of 'poor' passes and it cost him. I expect the same this Sunday.


    Like I said, you don't see it coming.
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  • Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.


    You haven't seen a secondary that's anything near as good as Seattle's and the way Seattle does it HELPS the rush get there. What Indy did to you earlier in the year is just a shadow of this. Your receivers are vulnerable to the way Seattle plays defense. That's not just me saying that either.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ius-thomas
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Like I said, you don't see it coming.


    Actually the reverse is true. Denver this season hasn't seen a defense remotely as good as Seattle's, and in a contest between Defense and Offense in a championship game, Defense generally wins.

    You obviously aren't going to believe me, but you'll see for yourself soon enough.


    We played 6 games against top 10 pass rush. You've played 2 against top 10 pass block olines. You haven't seen anything like what coming down the pike.


    You haven't seen a secondary that's anything near as good as Seattle's and the way Seattle does it HELPS the rush get there. What Indy did to you earlier in the year is just a shadow of this. Your receivers are vulnerable to the way Seattle plays defense. That's not just me saying that either.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ius-thomas


    That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?
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  • Eldorado wrote:That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?


    You should read the story. It concentrates on one guy, but it also describes the Bronco's offense in general. I am not quesitoning that the Broncos have the number one offense. I merely observe that the Broncos have struggled and struggled badly against defenses that use elements of what Seattle does all the time....and those teams don't do it nearly as well as Seattle. It is what it is.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?


    You should read the story. It concentrates on one guy, but it also describes the Bronco's offense in general. I am not quesitoning that the Broncos have the number one offense. I merely observe that the Broncos have struggled and struggled badly against defenses that use elements of what Seattle does all the time....and those teams don't do it nearly as well as Seattle. It is what it is.


    Seattle played 2 of the top 10 offenses this year. Seattle's played 2 of the top 10 QB's and 1 of the top 5. Seatle's no more battle tested than Denver.

    As far as 'struggling' goes, Denver scored 33 against Indi, and you don't have anything remotely as impressive as Mathis. Think Seattle can score 34? Seattle's averaged 18.5 against top 10 D's so far this year.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:That story is about 1 guy. You know we had 5 different guys score at least 10 TD's this year, right?


    You should read the story. It concentrates on one guy, but it also describes the Bronco's offense in general. I am not quesitoning that the Broncos have the number one offense. I merely observe that the Broncos have struggled and struggled badly against defenses that use elements of what Seattle does all the time....and those teams don't do it nearly as well as Seattle. It is what it is.


    Seattle played 2 of the top 10 offenses this year. Seattle's played 2 of the top 10 QB's and 1 of the top 5. Seatle's no more battle tested than Denver.

    As far as 'struggling' goes, Denver scored 33 against Indi, and you don't have anything remotely as impressive as Mathis. Think Seattle can score 34? Seattle's averaged 18.5 against top 10 D's so far this year.


    Seattle has played a great deal better offenses than that going by DVOA. I also note that it's the defense that sets the structure of the game, and thus it's the defense that's more important than the offense when it comes to asking who you've played. Even so, going by DVOA, Seattle has played a much harder schedule than Denver has.

    You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    Like I said, you will believe what you want to believe clearly. However, you are in for a rude suprise on Sunday. The Broncos haven't played a team that's anywhere near as good at stopping what Denver is good at as Seattle. Not close. Again, it simply is what it is.

    Edit PS: As for Mathis, Seattle has faced Quinn (twice) who is in exactly the same discussion, and Seattle's adjusted sack rate is BETTER than that of Indy (who gave you so many issues). You discount Seattle's D-Line. Don't. I am not discounting Denver's O-Line which really is good at pass-pro. However, Seattle's 'mush rush' combined with a press secondary is a lethal combination for a timing offense.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Seattle has played a great deal better offenses than that going by DVOA.

    That's wrong. Going by weighted DVOA, Seatles played NO and SF.
    Polaris wrote:I also note that it's the defense that sets the structure of the game, and thus it's the defense that's more important than the offense when it comes to asking who you've played. Even so, going by DVOA, Seattle has played a much harder schedule than Denver has.

    Got me on that one.

    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.

    Polaris wrote:Like I said, you will believe what you want to believe clearly. However, you are in for a rude suprise on Sunday. The Broncos haven't played a team that's anywhere near as good at stopping what Denver is good at as Seattle. Not close. Again, it simply is what it is.

    Pure conjecture and hyperbole

    Polaris wrote:Edit PS: As for Mathis, Seattle has faced Quinn (twice) who is in exactly the same discussion, and Seattle's adjusted sack rate is BETTER than that of Indy (who gave you so many issues). You discount Seattle's D-Line. Don't. I am not discounting Denver's O-Line which really is good at pass-pro. However, Seattle's 'mush rush' combined with a press secondary is a lethal combination for a timing offense.

    The seattle dline is 7th in adjusted sack rate. Denver's oline is 1st. Denvers played 7 games against top ten in adjusted sack and gave up 9 sacks. Seatle's played three games against a top 10 oline and only got 5 sacks. Where are you pulling this dominant pass rush narrative crap from?!? And how can you possibly conclude that they are going to be effective against Denver's oline when they haven't been effective against good olines that are inferior to denvers?!?
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Seattle has played a great deal better offenses than that going by DVOA.

    That's wrong. Going by weighted DVOA, Seatles played NO and SF.


    Seattle played SF three times, and NO twice. Not only that but the best way to judge is to ask about how the offenses rate WHEN they were faced. By that standard Indy when Seattle faced them was a top ten offense easily, and so was Carolina.

    Polaris wrote:I also note that it's the defense that sets the structure of the game, and thus it's the defense that's more important than the offense when it comes to asking who you've played. Even so, going by DVOA, Seattle has played a much harder schedule than Denver has.

    Got me on that one.


    It matters. Ask KC who was "best in the NFL" in week 9 unless one looked behind the smoke and mirrors.


    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.


    You have seen the NY Giants and I am sure you are counting them, but WHEN you faced them (week 2), they were not a top ten defense. In week 4 (the earliest that DVOA is calculated as DVOA) the NYGiants had a 22nd rated defense and a 6.6% defensive DVOA (which is pretty bad). The Giants became a good defense and solved their defensive problems long AFTER they played you.

    Likewise, Baltimore when you played them while better than the Giants only had a 12th rated defensive DVOA on week four (earliest DVOA is calculated). They became 10 ten later in the season.

    I'll give you KC in week 11 which then had a defensive DVOA of -9.1% for 6th place at that time. However, we both know that KC feasted on backup QBs and smoke an mirrors to that point. By the time Denver faced KC again two weeks later, their defensive DVOA had falled to 12th (-4.1)

    This doesn't hold a candle to what Seattle has faced in terms of defenses no matter how much you might wish otherwise.

    Polaris wrote:Like I said, you will believe what you want to believe clearly. However, you are in for a rude suprise on Sunday. The Broncos haven't played a team that's anywhere near as good at stopping what Denver is good at as Seattle. Not close. Again, it simply is what it is.

    Pure conjecture and hyperbole


    Ultimately we believe what I want, but the advanced stats do favor Seattle.

    Polaris wrote:Edit PS: As for Mathis, Seattle has faced Quinn (twice) who is in exactly the same discussion, and Seattle's adjusted sack rate is BETTER than that of Indy (who gave you so many issues). You discount Seattle's D-Line. Don't. I am not discounting Denver's O-Line which really is good at pass-pro. However, Seattle's 'mush rush' combined with a press secondary is a lethal combination for a timing offense.

    The seattle dline is 7th in adjusted sack rate. Denver's oline is 1st. Denvers played 7 games against top ten in adjusted sack and gave up 9 sacks. Seatle's played three games against a top 10 oline and only got 5 sacks. Where are you pulling this dominant pass rush narrative crap from?!? And how can you possibly conclude that they are going to be effective against Denver's oline when they haven't been effective against good olines that are inferior to denvers?!?


    Denver hasn't played a defense except for Indy, N.E., and San Diego that really played press and disrupted Manning's timing. They lost to all three. I note that the AFCCG changed dramatically after Talib went out.

    It's not just Seattle's pressure. It's Seattle's pressure COMBINED with a secondary that doesn't give easy reads and slows down timing routes. Manning as great as he is, struggles against such defenses, and Seattle does it better than anyone.

    Again, it is what it is.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Seattle has played a great deal better offenses than that going by DVOA.

    That's wrong. Going by weighted DVOA, Seatles played NO and SF.


    Seattle played SF three times, and NO twice. Not only that but the best way to judge is to ask about how the offenses rate WHEN they were faced. By that standard Indy when Seattle faced them was a top ten offense easily, and so was Carolina.

    Polaris wrote:I also note that it's the defense that sets the structure of the game, and thus it's the defense that's more important than the offense when it comes to asking who you've played. Even so, going by DVOA, Seattle has played a much harder schedule than Denver has.

    Got me on that one.


    It matters. Ask KC who was "best in the NFL" in week 9 unless one looked behind the smoke and mirrors.


    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.


    You have seen the NY Giants and I am sure you are counting them, but WHEN you faced them (week 2), they were not a top ten defense. In week 4 (the earliest that DVOA is calculated as DVOA) the NYGiants had a 22nd rated defense and a 6.6% defensive DVOA (which is pretty bad). The Giants became a good defense and solved their defensive problems long AFTER they played you.

    Likewise, Baltimore when you played them while better than the Giants only had a 12th rated defensive DVOA on week four (earliest DVOA is calculated). They became 10 ten later in the season.

    I'll give you KC in week 11 which then had a defensive DVOA of -9.1% for 6th place at that time. However, we both know that KC feasted on backup QBs and smoke an mirrors to that point. By the time Denver faced KC again two weeks later, their defensive DVOA had falled to 12th (-4.1)

    This doesn't hold a candle to what Seattle has faced in terms of defenses no matter how much you might wish otherwise.

    Polaris wrote:Like I said, you will believe what you want to believe clearly. However, you are in for a rude suprise on Sunday. The Broncos haven't played a team that's anywhere near as good at stopping what Denver is good at as Seattle. Not close. Again, it simply is what it is.

    Pure conjecture and hyperbole


    Ultimately we believe what I want, but the advanced stats do favor Seattle.

    Polaris wrote:Edit PS: As for Mathis, Seattle has faced Quinn (twice) who is in exactly the same discussion, and Seattle's adjusted sack rate is BETTER than that of Indy (who gave you so many issues). You discount Seattle's D-Line. Don't. I am not discounting Denver's O-Line which really is good at pass-pro. However, Seattle's 'mush rush' combined with a press secondary is a lethal combination for a timing offense.

    The seattle dline is 7th in adjusted sack rate. Denver's oline is 1st. Denvers played 7 games against top ten in adjusted sack and gave up 9 sacks. Seatle's played three games against a top 10 oline and only got 5 sacks. Where are you pulling this dominant pass rush narrative crap from?!? And how can you possibly conclude that they are going to be effective against Denver's oline when they haven't been effective against good olines that are inferior to denvers?!?


    Denver hasn't played a defense except for Indy, N.E., and San Diego that really played press and disrupted Manning's timing. They lost to all three. I note that the AFCCG changed dramatically after Talib went out.

    It's not just Seattle's pressure. It's Seattle's pressure COMBINED with a secondary that doesn't give easy reads and slows down timing routes. Manning as great as he is, struggles against such defenses, and Seattle does it better than anyone.

    Again, it is what it is.


    Do you always just make shit up?
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  • Eldorado wrote:Do you always just make shit up?


    Do you bother to do any research? All I did was look up the DVOA of the supposedly "top ten" defense you faced the week you faced them (with the exception of using week 4 DVOA for opponents in weeks 1-4 because week 4 is the earliest the full stat is compiled).
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Do you always just make shit up?


    Do you bother to do any research? All I did was look up the DVOA of the supposedly "top ten" defense you faced the week you faced them (with the exception of using week 4 DVOA for opponents in weeks 1-4 because week 4 is the earliest the full stat is compiled).


    Then address the fact that seattle hasn't played any more good offenses than Denver has faced good D's.

    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Do you always just make shit up?


    Do you bother to do any research? All I did was look up the DVOA of the supposedly "top ten" defense you faced the week you faced them (with the exception of using week 4 DVOA for opponents in weeks 1-4 because week 4 is the earliest the full stat is compiled).


    Then address the fact that seattle hasn't played any more good offenses than Denver has faced good D's.


    I did. In fact Seattle has faced four judging by when the teams were faced and two of those multiple times. (regarding offenses). When it comes to Denver, Denver has only faced four 10 ten defenses going by end of the year DVOA, but when we examine it further, we find that only ONE (KC) was a top ten defense when Denver faced them.

    By contrast if you want to go by defenses, Seattle has faced Arizona, San Fran, Carolina, New Orleans, New York Giants (and yes when they were a top ten defense), and Tampa Bay. A fairer question would be to ask when Seattle HASN'T faced a top notch defense.

    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.


    It's not "crap". It's the truth. By DVOA Seattle has faced a combined (regular season) opponent DVOA of -0.5% which was 17th in the league. By contrast Denver has faced (regular season) a combined opponent DVOA of -6.7% for a dismal 31st in the league.

    Not only is the ranking much lower, but the raw number is much worse as well. So yes, BY THE NUMBERS Seattle is far and away the more battle tested team. Truth is truth.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Do you always just make shit up?


    Do you bother to do any research? All I did was look up the DVOA of the supposedly "top ten" defense you faced the week you faced them (with the exception of using week 4 DVOA for opponents in weeks 1-4 because week 4 is the earliest the full stat is compiled).


    Then address the fact that seattle hasn't played any more good offenses than Denver has faced good D's.


    I did. In fact Seattle has faced four judging by when the teams were faced and two of those multiple times. (regarding offenses). When it comes to Denver, Denver has only faced four 10 ten defenses going by end of the year DVOA, but when we examine it further, we find that only ONE (KC) was a top ten defense when Denver faced them.

    By contrast if you want to go by defenses, Seattle has faced Arizona, San Fran, Carolina, New Orleans, New York Giants (and yes when they were a top ten defense), and Tampa Bay. A fairer question would be to ask when Seattle HASN'T faced a top notch defense.

    Eldorado wrote:
    Polaris wrote:You complain we haven't seen good offenses? By comparison, the defenses Denver has faced have been sub-par.

    AGAIN wrong. Seattle's seen two of the top ten O's, Denver's seen two of the top ten D's. And yet you INSIST on banging the table with this "Seatle's more battle tested" crap.


    It's not "crap". It's the truth. By DVOA Seattle has faced a combined (regular season) opponent DVOA of -0.5% which was 17th in the league. By contrast Denver has faced (regular season) a combined opponent DVOA of -6.7% for a dismal 31st in the league.

    Not only is the ranking much lower, but the raw number is much worse as well. So yes, BY THE NUMBERS Seattle is far and away the more battle tested team. Truth is truth.


    You still don't see it. That light? That's not the end of the tunnel. It's a freight train. I'm done with you and your convoluted misrepresentations. I'll be back after the game.
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  • Eldorado wrote:You still don't see it. That light? That's not the end of the tunnel. It's a freight train. I'm done with you and your convoluted misrepresentations. I'll be back after the game.


    Can Denver win? Sure. Do I think they will? No. I think F.O., and the other advanced analysis pretty much has it right. Seattle should win between 55-60% of the time.

    I remind you that four times before has the number one offense met the number one defense (both in scoring and yards) before in the superbowl and the number one defense has won 3 out of 4. For that matter teams that go to the Superbowl with the number one defense are 12-3 iirc.

    So, think what you like, but I'd say you are in for a very unpleasent suprise this Sunday.
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  • All this reliance on statistics like DVOA to predict the outcome of a game is just amusing.
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  • Omaha wrote:All this reliance on statistics like DVOA to predict the outcome of a game is just amusing.


    How is it any different than using any other metric to try to quantify how each team will perform before the game is really played? If I take this argument to it's logical extension, why talk about stats at all?

    It is my experience that DVOA is an extremely useful tool for measuring the relative level of various NFL teams (and how they match up) over the years. While nothing is perfectly predictive in the NFL (Any Given Sunday), it seems a lot better than nothing.
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  • Eldorado wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    Eldorado wrote:Also, you do know that knowshon and ball had more yards and a better cumulative average than marshawn and turbin, right?


    You do know that the defenses in the AFC are pale in comparison to the defenses in the NFC right?


    You do know that Denver has the best pass blocking oline in the league and seatles is the worst, right?

    no that isn't true.
    In the middle of the season they were missing their LT, RT, and C, so they predictably played horrendously through that stretch, since they got the band back around week 10 it's been much better, SF was not good, but I'll chalk it up to a great front 7, we also play in a division with a lot of rushers (quinn, smith, smith, bowman, campbell, dockett, washington, long).
    Peyton's under 2.5 average release time also helps the oline compared to wilson where it's around 4.
    Denver may be the best, but we are not the worst right now
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  • Polaris wrote:
    Omaha wrote:All this reliance on statistics like DVOA to predict the outcome of a game is just amusing.


    How is it any different than using any other metric to try to quantify how each team will perform before the game is really played? If I take this argument to it's logical extension, why talk about stats at all?

    It is my experience that DVOA is an extremely useful tool for measuring the relative level of various NFL teams (and how they match up) over the years. While nothing is perfectly predictive in the NFL (Any Given Sunday), it seems a lot better than nothing.


    Right. Unless it doesn't work for your narrative, then you ignore it.
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  • Polaris wrote:
    How is it any different than using any other metric to try to quantify how each team will perform before the game is really played? If I take this argument to it's logical extension, why talk about stats at all?

    It is my experience that DVOA is an extremely useful tool for measuring the relative level of various NFL teams (and how they match up) over the years. While nothing is perfectly predictive in the NFL (Any Given Sunday), it seems a lot better than nothing.

    I have nothing against using stats when looking at trends and general performances, but find them them much less relevant when discussing the outcome of a specific game. For that I find schemes, play design and individual match-ups more relevant.

    Personally, I expect Peyton to test seahawks' deep cover (particularly ET3) very early. Also dont be surprised to see Jrue in some packages.
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  • WHOA! I'm going to go ahead and flip in to "Dad" mode here and say that if I actually were there, I'd probably send both of you guys to your rooms. I'm not all that pleased with the kind of interactions that I'm seeing here. You know, I started this thread with the expressed idea that this would be a RESPECTFUL discussion between our 2 mutual teams -- a chance to ask one another questions -- get to know each others' teams and to discuss this game in a civil manner. Disagreeing with one another is one thing. I like spirited debates, for sure -- we can agree to disagree as long as it's done in a way that clearly shows mutual respect for one another. THIS appears to me to be another matter. If you guys honestly want to go beat the tar out of each other, I'd suggest that you start a thread in the Smack Shack and have on at it. All right, I'm going to step down off my soap box now. Hopefully we can all bring this thing back to center and continue to preview this game in the manner I laid out right from the start. [See Post #1 back on Page 1]
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  • DVOA really sucks. Any metric that says Kenny still is the #1 WR in the league while it rank Megatron 15th is a waste of time. Jimmy Graham as the 12th best TE with freaking Lardarius Green #1?? Come on. Not to mention Donald Brown has the 2nd best DVOA among running backs, as if anyone needed any more reason to discount this "stat".

    I am not a fan of DVOA, this is one of the few boards I've actually seen people support it.
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  • Papa-pwn wrote:DVOA really sucks. Any metric that says Kenny still is the #1 WR in the league while it rank Megatron 15th is a waste of time. Jimmy Graham as the 12th best TE with freaking Lardarius Green #1?? Come on. Not to mention Donald Brown has the 2nd best DVOA among running backs, as if anyone needed any more reason to discount this "stat".

    I am not a fan of DVOA, this is one of the few boards I've actually seen people support it.


    I would respectfully submit that DVOA is a better measure than you might think. I happen to know that ESPN uses it for what it's worth. That said, it's not perfect. It's just better than most other advanced metrics I've seen. [For one thing it does a poor job with garbage time.]

    If we can not agree on metrics of measure, then how is a respectful discussion possible?

    To answer a prior poster, yes it's true that one of the traditional ways to attack a cover three is to throw the long ball. However Peyton's arm isn't what it once was. Frankly only Andrew Luck had any real success doing that this season against Seattle and even that was limited.
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  • ANY Denver fan using stats from this season to judge or talk against Seattle's O-line is daft and dumb and is more of an idiot than I already thought Denver fans were(cocky hypocritical and misinformed). You guys do realize we were missing 2 pro bowlers and 1 damn good starter, and it took a couple games for us to find the best use of the replacements and just when we started to get decent production from those guys we had to put the original starters back in. And we did substitute mquistan for bowe and have now given his job to another man. And anyone who knows anything about football knows that chemistry and having your linemen used to working with one another is almost if not just as important as the individual skill of each lineman.
    Oh you mght sputter on about how you were missing your best lineman, well you guys have had for the most part the same line the whole damn year.
    On another point I think its safe to say that a big reason for Denvers O-lines efficiency is due to the mind of Peyton Manning, he directs them of mismatchs, who to block and many other things. With his keen ability to get the ball out quick and the command he has pre-snap im sure that he would get the same results with a healthy seattle line easily.
    So before you talk down and use stats you should look into the situation because Seattle hasnt had the same line all season that we have now. Also denver hasnt had to deal with the mighty quinn twice a year. You might say you had the sack leader RM coming at Peyton, well did as well. You talk down about seattles offense, well guess what? the defenses in the NFC are far superior than in the AFC.
    Get this Denvies, we were second in points scored through 10-11 games. That was without our best wr, one of the most explosive players in the NFL(last season he was leading the MVP race over eventual winner and teammate AP and manning). that production was against far superior defenses as well. so get off your high horse, with Harvin we are a top 5 offense, so get ready to face a defense built to stop a team like Denver and an offense that at full strength is elite.
    There isnt too much of a gap between your O and our D, but there is a huge gap between our O and your D. I admit the gap wouldnt be too big if you had Von and that DB, but you dont so get ready.
    We wont ditch the run, we will pound your already week D and when your D is tired and sore, percy will slash his way down the field.
    sorry if i offended any denver fans that are actually nice respectful people, but i have had enough with using stats that dont apply, reading threads created on here just to say the seahawks suck, and reading post saying they now see why ppl kill themselves in seattle.
    Starting to think most you guys are as bad as 49ers fans.
    And if you want to use your rush yards allowed stat over and over on how you will keep lynch to 10 yards, please multiply your rush allowed stat by 2, it DOESNT REPRESENT how well your D is against the run if most teams had to ditch the run by the start of the second half.
    And peyton doesnt deserve this SB. most players dont even get to play in a SB let alone win one. A player doesnt deserve 2 rings over a franchise winning their first. Tired of hearing all this shit about him deserving a second ring, Dick Butkus didnt even play in a playoff game, so enough of that.
    Sorry had to get it off my chest. Lets just see how it goes sunday, im sure we will all love to discuss which is the better team come monday.
    CANT WAIT
    Mock drafts have The HAWKS at pick #32 taking
    ALLEN ROBINSON #8
    A big, tall (He's 6'3, 210 lbs.), fast (Runs a 4.4x 40yd dash) and athletic (38in vertical leap) Wide Out!
    We got the fast, KR type slot guys, we'll be a whole new beast!
    #JustWaitAndSee
    KDshouldBeOurMJ
    NET Bench Warmer
     
    Posts: 26
    Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:37 am


  • Thanks Hawkscanner, that was getting pretty tiring. I hope those two have finally packed it in. I know this is also slightly off topic, but I'd just like to say...

    There are fans of every team who are dbags. There are fans of every team that are misinformed, arrogant and are ignorant regarding other teams. Having been around these boards, of lots of different teams, I really don't see much difference. Every team has annoying fans, and this week I've seen as many arrogant, ignorant Seattle fans as I've seen arrogant, ignorant Denver fans. I know we like to think our teams fans are different, but its just not true! I've finally realised you need to ignore the noise, the uninformed and biased debate and try to pick out those who you can have proper dialogue with (instead of arguing with idiots, which is never productive).

    *That probably sounded preachy, sorry*

    As for this game, I'd like to ask some more about Seattle's DLine.

    1) How will they line up against Denver's base (11) personnel? Will they go heavier on early downs and lighter on late downs?
    2) What are the specific strengths and weaknesses of the DLine. PFF grades Clemons and Avril negatively against the run whilst grading McDaniel and Bryant negatively in pass rushing. Mebane and Bennett seem to be the most dominant. Would you concur with this or is there more to it?
    3) How much do the LB's get involved in rushing the passer? Will we see Irvin playing DE?

    Just want to get a better handle on the matchup that I believe may well determine this game, thanks.
    aulaza
    NET Bench Warmer
     
    Posts: 15
    Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:35 pm


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