Well, this worked really well with Saints fans, so I thought I might go to the well 1 last time and roll this idea now that the Big Game is upon us all.

I'm assuming that we will have quite a few Broncos Fans visiting us over the next few days, so I thought it would be cool to have an open invitational thread to Broncos Fans to share their insights/thoughts on the Broncos and this matchup... and of course vice versa for Seahawks fans as well.

Here's the ground rules once again (I'll repeat exactly what I wrote when I did this both times with the Saints-Seahawks Previews) -- I'd like for this thread to be a Q&A thread both for Broncos Fans ... and for Seahawks Fans. Above all, I want this to be a respectful discourse. Let me put my Dad hat on here for a second and say that I really want to stress respect here. No provoking comments, degrading jokes, smack talk, etc here. If you guys want to do that outside of this thread or in the Smack Shack -- fine. Whatever. Not here alright. Moderators (Radish and others) I'm really hoping for your support again on this, as I want this to be a clean Q&A friendly discourse here. We can disagree obviously, just do so in a respectful manner. I'd like for Saints Fans to feel welcome to honestly share ... because you get the best answers and best discourse that way. Let them see what I already know to be true -- that Seahawks.net is the best NFL fan forum out there bar none. OK?

So, Hawks fans, ask your questions about the Broncos ... and I'm hoping Broncos fans will feel free do the same and ask us about our team. The idea is to get more educated about each others' teams rather than simply preaching to the choir or talking past one another.

That said, let me be the first to start and I'll begin with a couple of general questions ...

Broncos fans, thanks for joining us here for the next 12 days or so. Would you be so kind as to answer the following intro questions ...

1) If you would be so kind, could you give us a scouting report/breakdown on your team (both offense and defense).

2) It's no secret that the Seahawks are one of the most (if not THE MOST) physical teams in the NFL. They are an "in your face" punishing team, both defensively and offensively actually. I'm curious to know, how has Denver done when they have faced those kinds of teams.

We love details around here, so feel free to go for it.

Alright, since no Broncos fans have graced us with their presence yet, let me go ahead and get things kicked off with a very brief preview on the Seahawks and what you're likely going to see.

If I'm a Broncos fan, honestly I come in to this game a bit worried about the Seahawks. And I don't say that as a homer. I say that as someone who has followed the Broncos some this year and what they like to do. From a match-up standpoint, I could very easily see the Seahawks being problematic. From what I understand, the formula that has worked to some extent on how to beat the Broncos this year is basically:

1) Do not blitz Peyton Manning (he'll generally torch teams that dial that up).

2) Be physical with the Broncos WR's and drop a lot of good cover guys back in to pass coverage.

3) Keep Peyton Manning off the field by establishing the run.

Well, I can virtually promise you that the game plan for the Seattle Seahawks will be to basically try to do all of that ... because those are the real strengths of this football team.

I’ll start by expounding on points 1 and 2 ...

On Defense, the Seattle Seahawks DON'T tend to blitz all that much for the simple fact that they don't have to. Last season, a major reason that the Seahawks lost to the Falcons in the playoffs was their inability to generate any kind of pass rush in that game. That was a big problem down the stretch -- and especially become a real issue once Chris Clemons went down in the Redskins playoff game. This past offseason, GM John Schneider made a concerted effort to address that -- and boy did he ever. Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett have really transformed Seattle's Front 4 in to a pretty scary beast. Neither are starters (Seattle tends to rotate guys through periodically and according to situation), but both cause a heck of a lot of problems when they're in there. Avril has a tendency to create a lot of strip sacks (where he causes the QB to fumble as he sacks him). That's a skill he's had ever since he was in Detroit and he did it yet again this past game against Kaepernick. Michael Bennett is a guy I was extremely excited to get, as he's someone who's unique in that he can play both interior lineman or out wide at either defensive end spot. He generates a lot of pressure as well. Both Bennett and Avril were among Pro Football Focus's top 10 defensive lineman in terms of generating pressure. And the Seahawks pass rush doesn't stop there. DT's Brandon Mebane and Tony McDaniel were not only two of the top run stuffers in the game (2nd and 4th best according to PFF) ... they were also two of the NFL's best pass rushing interior lineman as well. Seattle was one of the best pressure inducing teams in the NFL WITHOUT having to blitz much.

Because of that, Seattle has a major advantage when it comes to pass coverage. They will often drop their LB's in to coverage and those guys are very good at it. Most times, putting a linebacker on a tight end is the kiss of death for a defense -- especially against really good TE's. But Seattle's linebacking corps is a whole different breed of animal. They are big, fast, and aggressive. K.J. Wright has been kind of like a secret weapon when it comes to opposing TE's. He's a big, long (6'4" 246 pounds) and can run. His backup (who'll rotate in there too), Malcolm Smith, is in the words of LB's coach Ken Norton Jr. "weapon's grade fast" -- he runs a legitimate 4.4 and always seems to be around the ball. Both of those guys helped to really shut out guys like Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis -- two of the best TE's in the game. Last season, Luke Kuechly in Carolina walked away with Defensive Rookie of the Year honors. Well let me tell you, though not much attention was paid to him, MLB Bobby Wagner absolutely deserved to be in that DROY discussion. He's fast (runs about a 4.46 IIRC), hard hitting, and very instinctual -- he always seems to be around the ball. Though Kuechly is going to continue to get his recongition nationally as being the best MLB in the game ... Bobby Wagner is right there with him. Last year, Bruce Irvin led all NFL rookies in sacks (8.0) from the LEO position (a hybrid pass rusher that Carroll employs in his defenses). This year, he was moved to LB to take advantage of his overall speed there. Though I was extremely skeptical at first, Irvin has been very solid both in terms of run and pass coverage.

When healthy, San Francisco's linebacking corps is the best in the league I'd say bar none. However, I'd honestly have to honestly put Seattle's in the top 3 or 4 in the NFL -- they're that good.

There is no such debate when it comes to Seattle's secondary though. Without a doubt, fans throughout the nation are going to be seeing Peyton Manning facing the best in the league come February 2nd. Their nickname, Legion of Boom, really says it all about these guys and what they are all about. They are all big, fast, and nasty defenders. Richard Sherman has gotten a whole lot of attention with his self promotion of "I'm the best corner in the game" kind of thing. But in all honesty, he's completely right (Sherman is the brutally honest type who will call a spade a spade, regardless of who it offends). Sherman, a one time 5th round draft choice out of Stanford, played WR in college. That experience has really translated well to the NFL for him. He studies film like crazy and because of that can often run the route as well as the receiver he is facing. He is not only quick, but often positions himself so incredibly well in a way that only he can make the play. Sherman not only led the league in interceptions (8) -- he had a passer rating against of only 47.3 (best in the NFL). Opposite Sherman, Broncos fans will see a very underrated Byron Maxwell. There was a lot of hand wringing when Brandon Browner went down first with a groin injury and then was lost due to his drug suspension for the remainder of the season. However, the secondary has actually performed even BETTER since Byron Maxwell has been in there. Maxwell is big, very physical corner as well. Since taking over as a starter, Maxwell has 4 interceptions and has been a shut down corner in his own right. He had a passer rating against of 47.8 (2nd in the NFL) in limited duty. The matchup that’s going to be particularly interesting in this game is going to be in the slot -- how Walter Thurmond does against Wes Welker. Thurmond has been a very good nickel corner this season, as he has a passer rating against of just 67.4 (13th in the NFL -- that was better than either Dominque Rogers-Cromartie or the Patriot’s Aqib Talib). And Seattle has good depth all the way down in terms of its DB’s, as Jeremy Lane and DeShawn Shead are very much in that same mold. Both are capable corners that you’ll undoubtedly be seeing more of next year.

Seattle safeties are also elite. What really makes the Seahawks secondary click is the play of FS Earl Thomas. Thomas has sideline to sideline speed -- blazing fast (runs a 4.43). He is also a very physical, punishing hitter with great instincts and a nose for the football. Teams think twice about throwing deep often because Earl is back there. He changes the game, as he plays center field and does a phenomenal job of it. Thomas is an All Pro that Manning is going to have to be cognizant of where he is at on the football field t all times. At the Strong Safety position is enforcer Kam Chancellor. Chancellor (who has the nickname “Bam-Bam”), is as big as a linebacker (6’3 232 Lbs), has good speed (4.6), and hits like a Mack Truck. If you like big hits, that shot that he put on Vernon Davis in the NFCCG was a thing of beauty. He is also very good in coverage and was a big reason why TE’s Jimmy Graham and Vernon Davis got shut down for the most part. He’s a 2 time Pro Bowler himself and was named All Pro this year as well.

Seattle has been very good at shutting down even elite quarterbacks this year. Back in Week 13 when the Seahawks faced the Saints up in Seattle, Drew Brees had a ton of problems. At a few points in that game, you could see him trying to go through his progressions … and he couldn’t find anyone open.

The Seahawks secondary as a whole is very physical. They will jam receivers off the line of scrimmage and tend to play a lot of man to man coverage. Now here is where the Broncos may have a bit of an edge, as they may be forced to play some zone -- where they are not as adept. In terms of the WR/DB play, this will be a knock down, drag out fight. I’ve seen a lot of defenses throughout the years and I don’t think it’s at all a stretch to put these guys right up there with defenses like the 2000 Ravens or the 1985 Bears. It’ll be very interesting to see how one of the best OFFENSES we’ve seen in a long, long time does against these guys.


Now in terms of Point 3 (Keep Peyton Manning off the field), it’s no secret that’s going to be the game plan for Carroll and the rest of the coaching staff. And that starts with trying to slow down Beast Mode -- Marshawn Lynch.

Here is how the numbers for the Seahawks offense broke down this year ...



Don’t let those numbers fool you though -- Russell Wilson is an extremely good playmaker and a heck of a passer. He had 320 yards passing back in Week 1 … and 385 yards passing and 2 TD’s against the Falcons last year in the playoffs. So, he is the kind of quarterback that CAN put a team on his back and carry them to victory if necessary. Anyone who saw that Seahawks-Bears game last year has no doubt about that one.

No, Seattle makes running the ball its #1 priority simply because Pete Carroll firmly believes that the running game (first and foremost) and good, tough, hard physical defense is what makes championships. Ball control, limiting turnovers on offense, and controlling the time of possession is what Carroll is all about.

In horrible conditions at Century Link Field (40 mile an hour winds and driving rain that made passing very difficult) against the Saints in the Divisional Round, Marshawn Lynch virtually willed the Seattle Seahawks to victory, running for 140 yards on 28 carries (5.0 yards/carry) and 2 touchdowns. Lynch broke an amazing 13 tackles in that game. In fact, on the season, Lynch has broken 99 tackles -- which was 22 more than the 2nd running back on the list, LeSean McCoy. To put it in perspective of how dominant Lynch has been this season, from 2008-2012, the most missed tackles that any running back had was 64.

The 49ers (one of the best run defenses in all of the league) made no bones about it that stopping Lynch was going to be priority #1. The Seahawks responded by making a commitment to the run and Lynch went off, rumbling for 109 yards (5.0 yards/carry) and a key touchdown. And Seattle won the time of possession in the process (31:28 to 28:32). In this game especially, with how potent Denver’s offense is, I see Carroll and the Seahawks committing to the run more than ever.
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So, all of that said, here are a few questions that I would have for Broncos fans ...

1) How do you envision Peyton Manning and the Broncos attacking Seattle's defense in this game?

2) On defense, what do you envision being Denver's game plan against the Seahawks ... and how effective do you believe they can be at shutting down Marshawn Lynch?

3) Related question to #2 -- given the overall health of Denver's defense at this point of the season, do the Broncos have the horses to be able to effectively slow down Russell Wilson, Marshawn Lynch, and the Seattle Offense?

Thanks for doing this again.

Hope it works out as well as the last time.

If it gets overweight we can simply go to a new string.

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The SuperB owl ladys have left the building with our thanks.

Thanks for the invite! Class act man. I'm not able to go into such detailed info as you may hope for, but I certainly will be chiming into this PM thread.
I'm revamping my resume and references at the moment as the Wine business is simply burning me out.... Not to mention trying to buy a new car tonight so I will have to chime
in at a later point here and there throughout the next 2 weeks. Thanks again for the invite, I plan on posting here when I know it can be respected and disagreed with!

1. Manning will have some surprises up his sleeve using Jacob Tamme and Virgil Green... L. Ball will be used here and there, but Tamme and Green will be used for slot passes, blocks, the dirty work...
2. Our run stoppage is not to shabby, but I still see Beast going for 120 and a TD.... He's all business in the playoffs and he has a stiff arm like nobody's business. I think we hold Wilson to Alex Smith type numbers with
a very basic 3-4 zone. Almost daring him to beat us with his arm. This works out great for Wilson because when he decides to leave the pocket, I see him NOT throwing the ball and running for the 7 or 8 yeards. Taking
what we give to him. Wilson finishes with 50 yards rushing.... But those 50 yards are on key plays during the Hawks drives.... Daggers (if you will)
3. I think we have it in us to play 60 minutes with the Hawks. Details later....

Thanks Again!

Hello, My name is John and i have been a Bronco fan since the Floyd Little days.
I know we are both super excited to be here and I first want to say congrats on getting here this far. It's an amazing feat in this league just to get to the big game.

I will try to answer your questions
1) How do you envision Peyton Manning and the Broncos attacking Seattle's defense in this game?
Peyton's plan will be similar to what they have been doing all year. Peyton loves to spread out his passes to multiple recievers and multiple lengths of passes. He is usually not a long bomb passer but if he finds a good target, he will do the longer plays.
The Broncos are very good at using screen plays where they will set it up to have blockers that lead the way for the recievers. DT has recieved his best TDs and Yards after carries on simple screen plays.
And im sure you have heard the Billicheck contriversy on the welker/DT pick play. (By the way, Welker was not trying to "Get" or hurt anyone) We will definitely use pick plays to isolate receivers for short to mid range yardage.
Peyton is good at finding out what your defense is giving away.
I will not be suprised, for example, if you try to shut down DT. If you do, then Peyton will find other targets such as Welker, Decker and Julius. All of them have at least 10 TDS each regular season.
Don't forget our run game. Moreno got over 1000 yards rushing and 500 yards passing and 12TDs i think. Ball has a couple TDs too. I expect that team will get over 100-150 yards in the game.
OUr plan is to simply dink and dunk and methodically get down the field. A key thing we need to make sure is to not let Seattle stop us in the Red Zone, forcing field goals instead of TD's.
Peyton will try to get your team to go offsides and is good at it. Didn't happen much in the NE game, but SD he got 5 penalties for nuetral zone infractions. He loves to test the defense to see what coverage you will take.
2) We have done very well this year at shutting down the run. (with exception of a game or two).
We usually will put a spy on a QB or an option type system to slow down any runs that way.
Many of the games we have, run hasn't been an issue because the opposing team has been behind, they are trying to pass to catch up. (im really not trying to be cocky here, just stating a fact).
We are not perfect with the run, but i feel that we have handled players harder than Lynch in this area. I would say keeping Lynch to 50-75 yards would be our goal.
I really don't have the knowledge/experience to tell you what my concerns are with passing ability of Russel Wilson. I will take your word there that he should not be underestimated.
I think sometimes people look at our stats and see that our passing defense is suspect.
I would say early on in the year, it was MAJOR suspect. Especially the Dallas game, where Romo was passing at will.
But, they seem to be peaking now right at the right time. Ever since week 15 of the SD game, we have really have been playing good defense!
3) Champ Bailey is one CB that played very well for us last game. He has been limited with a foot injury and has been gone most of the season. We lost Chris Harris which is big, but Tony Carter has filled in. DRC has done an amazing job this year.
We seem to be doing amazing the first 3 quarters of a game, and then give up plays in trash time. I'm real excited how we are playing.
Players like Knighton and Shaun Phillips have come thru to help us. its been an amazing season, and i am proud of them no matter what the results are in 11 days.

question for you. Out of our recieving threat, who are you most concerned about and what tactics will you employ to slow down Peyton's drives? Will you try to eliminate/slow down a certain part of it?

Thanks for this...this is fun!

I hope the Broncos commit to #2. Wilson will straight up murder the Bronco's D.

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Super Bowl Champions XVLIII

Thanks for your write-up. To answer your question, I'm concerned about all of them. If we focus on solely on one, the other three horsemen will punish us. Manning is great at exploiting matchups; he's possibly the best ever at the QB position as far as throwing receivers open and exploiting weaknesses. That said, I still think the Hawks win.

The first key will be to disrupt Manning's rhythm through pressure from the D-line and physical play against the receivers. We need to bump the receivers at the line of scrimmage and be ultra-physical to disrupt their timing. Its the test of the season for sure for our defense, but I think we are up to it.

Obviously, and I'm sure you hear this with every game, the best defense against Manning is keeping him off the field with sustained drives from our offense. Earlier in the year, the Seahawks were very good at sustained drives lasting 6+ minutes. We need to do this again and again to keep Manning off the field.

Finally, its important to get an early lead playing Manning. If there's a weakness in Manning that I've noticed over his career, its that he's not as good at playing from behind. The pressure gets to him and he tries to do too much. He's not the most patient QB, which is different from Russell Wilson who plays conservatively to a fault sometimes.

aawolf thanks,
you mention the "keep manning off the field" mantra, so i will expound upon that. The only team that has had success with that was San Diego at our home on a Thursday. They kept Rivers mostly at check and tried to run alot and control the clock. they used up much more game time than we did and beat us 27-20. But, earlier in the year they tried the same thing and chewed up game time, but we beat them 28-20 i think. In the playoffs, their plan was totally foiled and we ended up chewing the clock on them.

I agree that Peyton like a rhythim and what you mentioned about changing that rhythm is key.
I don't necessarily agree that Manning is not good from playing behind. He has a couple of comebacks this year and has many in his carreer. I think if we were way down, i think you are right.

I'm very curious how this game will end up. This is not like any typical game we have had before, but i feel we will end up winning it and my useless prediction will be Denver 24- SEa-21. Either way it won't sway 4 points one way or other. Usually, i would predict at least 30 points for any other team.

Don't forget we had 44 sacks, which essentially translates to 464 pass attempts (47.7% of 973 total plays)

Wilson additionally had 96 of those rushing attempts. A good percentage of those would have been called pass plays that Wilson has decided to gain yards from (at >5 YPC) but so often Wilson has his eyes downfield and throws a pass when it looks like he's going to run. We DO run the ball more than we pass, but that doesn't mean the threat isn't there, if you think for one moment you have Wilson stopped dead in his tracks and leave your WR, he will punish you

for comparison
2013 Seahawks (Regular Season Stats)
Rushing Attempts …509 (54.8% of Offense) 2188 yards 14TDs
Passing Attempts … 420 (45.2% of Offense) 3235 yards 27 TDs
Total Attempts … 929

2013 Broncos (Regular Season Stats)
Rushing Attempts …461 (40.5% of Offense) 1873 yards 16TDs
Passing Attempts … 675 (59.5% of Offense) 5444 yards 55 TDs
Total Attempts … 1136

Looks like we have more offense just in passing than you have offense in total.

Something to bear in mind when comparing offenses is that Seattle doesn't *need* the offense that Denver does. Seattle's defense gives up (regular season) an average of 14.4 pts per game. What that means is if Seattle can score more than 15pts (by any means), they win. If Seattle gets to 20pts by any means, they almost certainly win. That's not been true for Denver. I also note that when teams play Seattle, they score less than their normal averages. A lot less.

Just my opinion, but highly doubt you are going to keep Denver from scoring a minimum of 23-24 points.

Our lowest point scoring game was the SD game with 20 points and that I will chalk up to one of those wierd divisional Thurs games.

I would rethink this after looking at Seattle's defense this year. Seattle doesn't give up very many points to ANYONE. Just saying.

Except 34 points to Indy?

My opinion which is biased somewhat is that we can keep Denver from 21pts just because of our line(s)
play..Denver has not played a defense like ours..KC ? please..I saw enough of Peyton here to know he can
get rattled if you pressure him and disrupt his timing which everything to him..With 2 weeks to prepare I really like our chances..Denver is a great team and it should be a great game..

You can't make a proof from exceptions. You aren't Indy. Heck Indy (of the post-season) wasn't even Indy in September when they were playing their absolute best ball.

I seem to recall the Broncos had their own problems with Indy.

Very true! we lost to Indy too! I was just trying to make a point earlier.
There are two good teams here and somethins gotta give.

Agreed, but superbowl history suggests (doesn't demand mind but does suggest) that given a head on head class between an epic offense (which Denver most certainly has) and an epic defense (which Seattle has), the edge tends to go to the defense. I note that even against the Pats (who don't have anywhere close to Seattle's defense) at home, Denver scored what? 26 points? More than enough to win and even dominate the game true, but not a track meet.

The 24-26 point mark will lose you the game, and quite frankly, you're unlikely to get there. Here's why:

First, Seattle opponents average about 65% of their customary scoring output. That puts Denver at around 21 points. Now you're thinking that Denver has the best offense ever, so there's no way. (Hence your 20 point disclaimer.) This is where I can draw from experience and tell you why your optimism is misguided.

I'm a Ducks fan. Oregon is well known for it's record setting offense, the QBs and the many offensive weapons and running backs. Great offensive line that gets its members drafted into the NFL. Impossible to stop.

Until they come up against Stanford and LSU. Big, fast, physical defenses that stop the blur offense cold. Destroy passing lanes and running lanes and cutbacks. By the end, the Oregon offense is so out of rhythm, we just want the game to end. This is your team against the Seattle defense. You think the AFC can bring it, but they can't. You might see the SF-Sea game and think your team plays that fast and hard. They don't.

This is your reality, and when it's happening on the field, remember what the Ducks' fan told you. Receivers will drop passes, Manning will dump off passes that kill your RB, and Seattle will make your fans curse their offense for beating up on bad teams and showing poorly against real ones.

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Super Bowl Champions XVLIII

Very well put

In all fairness, I think Denver should of scored much more points against New England, I remember Julius Thomas dropping a TD in that game for instance.

Either way, in the playoffs, you don't need to blow the other team out just win and not get injured is enough.

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NFL, all your Owlz are belong to us!

College and pro comparisons are stupid IMO, but im not going to sit and argue about that.

Denvers average points per game is 37.87 points per game for a total of 606 points for the season.

that would give denver 24.61 points assuming your 65% theory is correct. (37.87 * .65)
Seattle hasn't even played a top ten offensive scoring team this year. The best scoring team you have played is New Orleans who is 10th best.

How do you REALLY know how well you can do with the #1 offense?

Another issue.
You guys are extremely good in your stadium with the 12th man. Being in your stadium gives you an advantage.
There will be more Bronco fans in the SB than Seattle fans.

Another reason Denver did not score more than 26 in New England was on purpose. We were playing keepaway in the second half and trying to run the clock with a long game winning drives.

One thing that denver is trying to improve on is Red Zone offense, trying to not settle for field goals and get the TD instead.

If New Orlean's offense is #10 then Seattle has faced a top ten offense....at least twice in fact. Going by Football Outsider's DVOA (a metric I've learned to trust) at the end of the season, the top ten offenses in the league were:

#1 Denver +33.7%
#2 Philly +22.9%
#3 San Diego +22.5%
#4 New England +16.4%
#5 New Orleans +15.9%
#6 Chicago +13.8%
#7 Seattle +9.4%
#8 San Fransisco +9.1%
#9 Green Bay +8.6%*
#10 Carolina 8.1%

* This includes game without Aaron Rodgers. Otherwise Green Bay would rate higher.

Note that Seattle IS in the top ten offensive list and has place multiple top ten offenses multiple times. Note that all italicized teams are teams that Seattle has played.

Now let's look at the reverse and defense. At the end of the season, the top ten defenses looked like (the more negative the better the defense):

#1 Seattle -25.8%
#2 Arizona -16.8%
#3 Carolina -15.7%
#4 Buffalo -13.9%
#5 Cincy -12.7
#6 New York Giants -11.5%
#7 Baltimore* -8.7%
#8 Tampa Bay -7.0%
#9 Kansas City* -6.8%
#10 New Orleans -5.9%

The italicized teams are the ones Seattle has faced. Honestly it's almost tempting to ask when Seattle HASN'T faced a 10 ten defense. The ones with asterisks are ones the Broncos have faced. When people say that the Broncos haven't faced good defenses, it's the simple truth.

I used the following to source my stats:


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-r ... oa-ratings

Polaris pretty much nailed it. And it seems my prediction of Denver scoring 24 is spot on. It's almost like I've seen all their games..... hmm?

With Percy playing we will score 28-30 at the least, unless Champ Bailey suddenly goes back in time to 2004.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

Another aspect of that is that the dropoff between the #1 defense (Seattle) and the #7 & #9 defenses is dramatic. Denver hasn't faced a defense anywhere close to Seattle's this year outside of the pre-season when they did face Seattle.

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How many 49ers fans does it take to change a light bulb? They don't, they just sit around and talk about the ones they had.

I've never really put much stock into PFO, but it's fine if you do.

Denver played, and beat the Giants as well. So they played the 6th and 7th once each, and the 9th twice. So I don't see how that means they haven't faced a good defense, when according to your stats they've played 4 games against good defenses?

Denver also played the #2 offense, #3 offense three times, and the #4 offense twice.

According to those stats, the best defense Denver has played is the #6 NYG at -11.5. That is a difference of 14.3 from Seattle's #1 -25.8.

Conversely the best offense Seattle has faced is the #5 Saints at 15.9. That is a difference of 17.8 from Denver's #1 33.7.

So the difference between Seattle's best offense opponent and Denver is more "dramatic" than the difference between Seattle and Denver's best defensive opponent.

So using your same point, Seattle hasn't seen an offense anywhere close to Denver's. I wouldn't say since the preseason because Denver's offense is very much different from then. Our 4th string RB was starting for one, and for two it was the absolutely meaningless preseason.

This is getting fun. It reminds me why Denver is so hated. Fact is you guys played NOBODY this year and you'll find that out in 11 days. I am starting to understand why it's so fun to be a Steeler fan now.... .the AFC has no analog for our defense. Believe that just for your sanity at least.

You do know both Sherman and Thomas accept and know EXACTLY what Peyton is going to try? And Maxwell is barely less than Sherman? Or that Kam just doesn't care because he will blow up your crossing routes?

Tell me differently WITH DVOA. I know you discount FO but most here don't given it's actually far more right than wrong.

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43-8...it's all about that action boss....
next man up.

Denver really isn't hated.

How is it a fact that Denver played nobody? According to these DVOA stats they have played 4 games against top 10 Defenses and 6 games against top 5 offenses.

I find it hard to believe that Sherman and Thomas are psychic.

Did you not read my last post? I've inly been using DVOA in this thread. The best defense Denver has played is closer to Seattle's defensive DVOA than the best offense Seattle has played compared to Denver's offensive DVOA.

I think it's going to be hard for a lot of Broncos fans to wrap their minds around the idea of just how very different Seattle and Denver are. Denver and Seattle are polar opposites in so many ways. When the Super Bowl comes, America isn't going to be treated just to a matter of the #1 Offense vs. the #1 Defense ... they're going to be treated to 2 vastly different philosophies of football. From what I've seen, Denver is the like crowning jewel of the today's generation of football. That is, built on scoring fast, overwhelming your opponent by scoring far more points than they can possibly imagine, and trotting out at least a functional defense that will slow down your opponent. That's today's approach and what's sexy in terms of football today. Seattle, on the other hand, is the epitome of how things used to be for football teams back in the 1970s -- offenses predicated on running the football, controlling the clock and the time of possession, limiting turnovers and opponent opportunities, and hard nosed, tough, break your teeth defenses. Pete Carroll very much believes in the latter. If I were to put this in to basketball terms, it would be like having a fast break high tempo push the ball team going up against an the old slow the ball down, work the offense, and play tough defense in the key type. Now contrary to popular belief, Seattle CAN score like a fast break team IF the situation warrants it. Last year against Atlanta in the Divisional round of the playoffs, the Falcons were up 20-0 at halftime thanks in large part to the fact that Seattle's pass rush was non-existent and we had d Marcus Trufant playing nickel corner at that time. The Seahawks stunned the Falcons and the world by mounting a comeback and taking the lead with 31 seconds to go. This year, the Seahawks have had many games in which they've taken their foot off the gas pedal. They've left points on the field on several occasions, such as the Saints win back in Week 13 where the Hawks could easily have scored 45-50 points if they'd chosen to do so. Pete Carroll doesn't believe in the new style of football -- but he and the Hawks can do it if they must. It will be very interesting and entertaining to see how this all plays out.

I agree with you that this is a very interesting battle! May the best team win it!

You are correct about the number. I had 34.8 in my head for some reason.

However, my comparison is not stupid, because your team has had a steady, downward slope of scoring in the playoffs. However, a Broncos fan should also remember that the 2007 Patriots only scored 14 points in the Super Bowl. That team was every bit as potent as your offense, and they didn't play a defense for the ages.

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Super Bowl Champions XVLIII

A lot of good points made for both teams.

We still have 10 days to pick the game apart, compare stats, talk trash, watch film, etc...

End of the day, none of that stuff really means anything. Next Sunday afternoon, the two best teams in the NFL will go at it for all the marbles. i think Denver's high powered offense vs Seattle's smothering defense is going to end up a wash, they damn near even out.

Looking forward to a good game, and of course I hope the Broncos win, but if there's anybody team I'd want to lose to, it would be Seattle. I love Lynch, I love that defense, and I like Wilson. fanbase deserves it as they've never won a 'ship, and at the end of the day we can all get up and toke the bong

You're right. I forgot about the Giants. You do realize that Seattle not only beat the Gaints in their place, but shut them out. Do you have any idea how hard that is to do to ANY NFL franchise?

Also don't just look at the raw rankings but look at the levels. As for Denver playing prolific offenses, I am not impressed. Everyone aknowledges that Denver has far and away the best offense (although you DID lose to San Diego at Mile High), but Seattle did meet and beat New Orleans twice (and neither was esp close) while you split with New England (who is about the same as New Orleans offensively).

The real point where the rubber hits the road is DEFENSE. The best defense Seattle has to face was Arizona (not once but twice). The best defense the Broncos had to face was the Giants....who have virtually no functional offense. Even then Seattle's win against the Giants (as I say above) is far more dominating. Seattle has faced a top ten defense 7 times with a maximum rating of -16.8% (twice). Denver has faced a top ten defense 4 times with a maximum rating of -11.5%. What's more Seattle has consistantly faced the top of this list while Denver has faced the bottom of it (including facing the #9 Chiefs twice).

The point is that the philosophy of Denver and most of the AFC is not the same as the philosophy of most of the NFC, and those NFC teams that did have Denver's philosophy (New Orleans) suffered for it, and discovered they had to abandon it (at least in part) in the playoffs.

That's the popular perception. I think it's the wrong perception. Generally (at least in NFL history), when an elite offense meets an elite defense, the elite defense generally gets the nod.

I've been doing a little bit of research this morning ... and it's been stunning to me the number of players that the Broncos have had that have been lost with season ending injuries ...

Broncos Players Lost for the Season …

LT Ryan Clady
LB Von Miller
DT Kevin Vickerson
S Rahim Moore
DE Derek Wolfe
CB Chris Harris

That's quite a list there. Those are a heck of a lot of hits and it makes me really wonder just how effective the Broncos defense is going to be in trying to stop this Seattle offense from doing what they want to do.

That brings me to a few questions that I've been having this morning ...

1) How big of a blow is the loss of Chris Harris? Who do you envision being the starting corners, both on the outside and in the nickle ... AND how effective do you honestly believe those guys will be? Give us a scouting report if you will.

2) I've heard a lot of talk focused on Terrance Knighton being the Broncos best defensive player ... but interestingly enough, NONE at all on Shaun Phillips (a guy who finished the season with 10 sacks). Why is it no one is talking about Phillips? Can you give us a breakdown on him perhaps -- strengths, weaknesses, etc.?

And lastly a big in general question here ...

3) I'm presuming there are a lot of us here who haven't gotten to watch a lot of the Broncos games, so flat out aren't all that familiar with them. Could you introduce us to just WHO the Broncos are? Tell us more about your team. A lot of us simply need more 411. You choose where to take that.

JohnT

you seem to like to throw your offensive stats out there quickly for comparison to ours, and as impressive as they are, let's see you do the same with defensive stats, see how you fair?

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World Champs - Sounds good don't it

Of course I'm going to throw offensive stats out. And you guys have thrown tons of defensive stats out here to...Just the way it works.

Very true as far as injuries.
We have been hit big time with the injury bug.
LT Ryan Clady - we lost him early to foot injury - Chris Clark has filled in well.
LB Von Miller - Von was gone the first 6 weeks due to the drug test stuff. He came back for 6 weeks and got an acl. We have learned to do generally without him. but still a big loss
DT Kevin Vickerson - this was a big loss and was a good reason why we probably lost the sd game.
S Rahim Moore - lost him late in season, Mike Adams stepping up
DE Derek Wolfe - illness with seizure
CB Chris Harris - Before we had Chris harris and DRC our primary corners with Champ was filling in part-time nickle. Now that Champ is back in afc championship he takes the corner and Tony Carter for nickel. Webster might have some mix in that also, not sure.

2) Pot Roast (Knighton) has been amazing this year, especially the last few games making key plays. one was a brady sack on 4th down. Plenty of people here are pleased at Shaun Phillips. I'm sure you have heard of the Dumberville fax fiasco. I would say that Shaun Phillips has even a tad better stats than Dumberville at a way much better price. In my opinion, Shaun needs to improve more in pass rush situations and is good at run defense more. However, he does get in there on sacks which is good. To me, sacks are overrated. There is sooo much more to his job than that.

3) I am working right now so that would take time to introduce all the broncos...i promise i will. Can you do the same back?
I have been concentrating to get to know my AFC opponents that i really have ignored alot of NFC stuff... thanks!

First of all, your numbers are off, because the best defense that Denver played were NYG (who have a strong defensive DVOA based on how they FINISHED the season, not how they started - by conceding 30 points in 5 consecutive games), whose DVOA is 13.3% worse that Seattle's. Seattle TWICE played NO, whose offensive DVOA was 9.7% less than Denver's.
Regardless, defensive DVOA are offensive DVOA are not equal though.
San Diego, Philadelphia and New England all have offensive DVOA's within 3.5% of Denver's suggesting they're not all that much better than the best. Seattle is 11.5% above the next best team in defense.
Outside of Baltimore (opening game of the season) and NYG (awful start to the season), the best defense that Denver played (by DVOA) was Kansas City (-2.2%, a full 27.8% less than Seattle's). The only other team Denver played that had a negative DVOA was Philly. That's it. 5 games. That's why Denver's offense drops significantly when weighted, whilst Seattle's defense climbs even higher.

OK then.... You guys win the battle of DVOA. Congratulations on that! Hope it helps you!

Except 34 points to Indy?[/quote]

Well, first off you can excuse 7 of those points to a block field goal returned for a TD
Secondly, Manning isn't going to be throwing 70 yard passes through the air to TY Hilton. Half of Luck's yards came on two deep throws that Manning simply can't make (and that's probably the biggest weakness of our passing defense, given the team has sacrificed top level speed at the corner position to get that length and physicality).

Luck threw 2 TD passes for 102 yards on 2 plays. Something Manning isn't going to be able to do. The rest of the time he went 14/27 for 125 yards.

You should try harder.
But started well but folded under just a little bit of pressure when you came up against someone armed with (correct) facts.

The parallels with next Sunday are incredible.

Ultimately it matters to how the teams perform on the field as always. That said, I find DVOA to be a very good indicator of how well the teams and respective parts of the teams have performed, and it illustrates far more than raw NFL stats what we've been saying:

Denver hasn't faced a team nearly as strong as Seattle especially but not only in defense and it's not close. By contrast while Denver clearly has a better offense than other teams that Seattle has faced, Seattle has faced teams with much stouter defenses than Denver's and whose offenses are at least within shouting distance of Denver's.

I expect we'll see this difference on the field in about 10 days.

Absolutely I can do that some when I get a few minutes to myself here. That's a bit difficult at times, as I've got 2 young boys (6year old and a 18 month old) that demand a LOT of my attention. That said, I'll try my best to give Broncos fans a bit of a flavor of the Seahawks ... and a bit more of a breakdown on the Offensive Side of the ball.

[In case you missed it, I did quite a bit of that in terms of the Seahawks defense in my 2nd Post -- back on Pg. 1]

That said, here is an edited, updated piece that I did on Russell Wilson prior to the Saints game ...

Russell Wilson in a word is flat out amazing. If you'll allow me to go off here for a second, I'll educate you a bit on him.

You know I find it personally fascinating when you start talking Peyton Manning and all his attributes. Manning will go down in history as one of the truly great QB’s to ever play this game. And believe it or not, Russell Wilson is a lot like Manning in a lot of ways. I don't know how much you Broncos fans really know about him, but I've been watching NFL QB's for 30+ years now and (doing my best to take off my homer cap for a second) I can honestly say Wilson is one of the very best QB's I've ever seen. I laugh when I see people out there saying that Wilson is too short, only a game manager, blah, blah, blah. The too short, game manager thing couldn't be farther from the truth. I know that a lot of people out there are making comparisons of this year’s Seahawks to the 2000 Ravens, basically saying that Russell Wilson is this team’s version of Trent Dilfer. Anyone who has ever watched him play for any length of time would absolutely laugh at that notion. That guy can absolutely take over a game every bit as much as Joe Montana or John Elway ever did … or that Peyton Manning can. Period. (just in a different way often times)

What Russell Wilson has accomplished in his first 2 seasons is flat out amazing. I don’t know how many of you Broncos fans know this, but last season, Wilson tied Peyton Manning’s record for most TD’s thrown by a rookie QB in NFL History (26). And he did it with far less passing attempts than Manning (Manning had 575 Passing Attempts in 1998 … Wilson had 393 Passing Attempts in 2012) and threw far fewer interceptions than Manning did back in 1998 (Manning had 28 INT’s in 1998 … Wilson had 10 INT’s in 2012). Wilson ended this season tied with Peyton Manning for the 2nd most passing TD’s (52) for a QB over his first 2 seasons in NFL History.

Not only that, but Russell Wilson stands alone, having won more games in his first 2 seasons (24) than any other QB in NFL History since 1966.

He is stunning accurate and is extremely adept at delivering the football deep. In fact, going into the 49ers game in Week 14, Russell Wilson had a 60% completion rate on his deep balls -- #1 in the NFL.

One other thing that Russell Wilson is truly unique in is his ability to throw accurately on the run. Wilson is a great pocket QB. He can drop back and wing it with the best of them. His decision making, his ability to avoid the blitz, and to make the right decision in a split second is truly impressive.

Honestly (and you guys are going to see this) -- he is every bit as dangerous OUTSIDE the pocket when he has to move as well. Greg Cossell did an analysis of Inside vs. Outside the pocket QB Stats last year. Russell Wilson inside the pocket (as a rookie in 2012) had a Total QBR of 77.0. For those not familiar with Total QBR, 60+ for a season is considered Pro Bowl Level. Russell Wilson OUTSIDE the pocket (on the move) had a Total QBR of 62.5. He is a nearly every bit as dangerous on the move as he is in the pocket. He is a stunningly accurate downfield thrower on the move as well. So as a defense, what do you honestly do?

When Russell Wilson is on the move, he is absolutely deadly. Like John Elway in his younger years, he can really scramble and is a real problem for opposing teams because of it. He’s smart with that though, as when he scrambles, he’s buying time and is always looking to make a play downfield to an open receiver. During those times when he does take off to get the 1st Down, he’s not like RGIII who’ll fight for that extra yard and get himself killed. He knows when to get down and slide and never seems to take that kill shot, as he’s got an uncanny way of moving his body in a such a way to avoid those (kind of like Emmitt Smith and Marcus Allen used to).

Wilson idolizes guys like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees and as QB’s. In part, Russell Wilson is who he is BECAUSE OF guys like Peyton Manning. Brock Huard (former UW Husky and Colts and Seahawks QB) has talked many times about the fact that he backed up Peyton Manning when he was in Indianapolis. He said that Manning studied and prepared harder for games than any QB he'd ever seen ... and Huard said that Russell Wilson is exactly the same way. He's an absolutely religious student of the game. He's watched all the film from every game that Manning, Favre, and all the greats that he can get his hands on. After that 49ers loss, Carroll said that he showed up at 4:30am at the VMAC (the Seahawks Practice facility) and there was Wilson's car -- Wilson had already beaten him to the film room. He lives in the film room and spends so much time in there that some of his teammates have joked, calling the film room “Russell Wilson’s Office.”

He is bar none the undisputed leader of this team. From day one that he showed up to training camp as a rookie, he earned the respect of his teammates, grabs the reigns of leadership, and never let go. Like Manning, he has shown time and time again that when the team needs a big play … he’ll make it. When the team is down by 3 with under 2 minutes to go … he’s going to bring the team back and find a way to lead them to victory.

If you were the GM of a team looking at starting an NFL team and could have your pick of any player out there to be your starting QB, Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson would have to be the first 2 choices you’d consider. Wilson is a guy who would be successful in ANY offense. As I sit and write this, I wonder what Denver’s Offense would be like if you substituted Russell Wilson for Peyton Manning. WHOO! I’d contend that he’d rack up at least 4000+ yards.

For those who are interested in really getting inside the mind of this guy and seeing what he's really all about, here is his segment on Camp Gruden prior to him being drafted. As I'm sure you're aware of, Jon Gruden brings in all the top QB's ever year and works them out (mentally and physically), picking them apart. If you've never seen it (and are interested) check it out ...

How are my numbers off? I was going by the numbers that Polaris posted



So let me see how my numbers are off..

Defensively, Seahawks-25.8 NYG-11.5..I don't see how my math is off at all, that is a 14.3 difference. Your 13.3 was close, but your math was a little off.

Offensively, Denver-33.7 NO-15.9.. Um NO's DVOA there is a lot further than 9.7.. I don't see how my math is off at all, the difference there is 17.8

Also, how are Philly, SD, and NE within 3%? According to this, Philly and SD are about 11 off while NE is 17 away.

According to your fellow Seahawk fan's stats, Seattle is 9 ahead of their nearest, not 11.

Great stuff, Hawkscanner, and thank you. I hope everyone reads this and quits saying how Russell Wilson is "limited" or that our passing game is somehow a "weakness". I'm so sick of that crap.

Those are the raw DVOA numbers. If you went to the site, you'd know that the weighted numbers favor Seattle even further. It's also important (but I didn't go into it because I didn't want to write a research paper for an online post) to note the defensive DVOA when each opponent was played. With the exception of your first meeting with KC, that makes the comparison even more lopsided in favor of Seattle.

I guess it is too hard to rationally discuss each team's pros and cons without the snark. Thought the OP asked to keep it out? One of the reasons these type of efforts loses the chance of having unfiltered, factual and honest discussion about the match. There are tons of posts available for the rose-colored glasses discussion. Those in the pissing match should probably take their beefs to one of them.

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Leon Washington 2010-2012 Red Bryant 2008-2013 Chris Clemons 2010-2013 Golden Tate 2010-2013
Brandon Browner 2011-2013 Breno Giacomini 2011-2013 - Gone but not forgotten.
Wilson will sign for $18M+ (3/4/2014)