Does the CBA screw Browner?

UK_Seahawk

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Trying not to open old wounds here but I read that some college guy tried the sue the NFL.

In 2004, Ohio State freshman Maurice Clarett sued the NFL over the age limit. Federal courts eventually ruled against him, saying that since the restriction had been collectively bargained between the league and its players, it wasn't subject to judicial review.


I wonder if this type of precedent would hurt Browner moving forward, the players have in effect already agreed to the rules, whether the NFL is completely wrong or actually correct in their ruling.

I'm not overly familiar with American Law but in England employment law is, to an extent, all about what you agreed to do in your contract.
 

EverydayImRusselin

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UK_Seahawk":3ro17ib0 said:
Trying not to open old wounds here but I read that some college guy tried the sue the NFL.

In 2004, Ohio State freshman Maurice Clarett sued the NFL over the age limit. Federal courts eventually ruled against him, saying that since the restriction had been collectively bargained between the league and its players, it wasn't subject to judicial review.


I wonder if this type of precedent would hurt Browner moving forward, the players have in effect already agreed to the rules, whether the NFL is completely wrong or actually correct in their ruling.

I'm not overly familiar with American Law but in England employment law is, to an extent, all about what you agreed to do in your contract.

I'm not familiar with the exact rules outlined in the CBA, but I believe the NFL has already violated some of the CBA rules with their handling of Browner's case.
 

Axx

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I wonder what if anything the cba says about defamation of character.
Even if browner wins, im not sure if he can take byrons spot
 

jdblack

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The NFL won in the 2004 case because the NFL was following the CBA.

Browner's situation is different because the CBA was not followed. Completely different.
 
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UK_Seahawk

UK_Seahawk

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jdblack":1p8sx6hc said:
The NFL won in the 2004 case because the NFL was following the CBA.

Browner's situation is different because the CBA was not followed. Completely different.

Browner would have to prove that the NFL wilfully ignored their own rules. Just playing devils advocate here but I can kind of see the NFL's logic. The crux for me will be whether the NFL can make the point that even if Browner had left the NFL he still had to abide by their rules if he ever wanted to return.

I personally think Browner had a duty to work out where he was the SAP on his NFL return. I always find ignorance a very poor defense.
 

RichNhansom

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The suspension will be determined upon whether browner knew he was in the program or not. He does have a clear case for defamation of character but that will likely have no effect on the suspension. It will however have a financial bearing because the NFL did breach the CBAs confidentiality agreement as well as reported as a ped abuse instead of what it was.
 

jdblack

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UK_Seahawk":3gqe093p said:
jdblack":3gqe093p said:
The NFL won in the 2004 case because the NFL was following the CBA.

Browner's situation is different because the CBA was not followed. Completely different.

Browner would have to prove that the NFL wilfully ignored their own rules...

I think that would have been true a month ago, but the bar is much lower now that they suspended Browner indefinitely - If a CBA rule has been broken, then it MUST be willful because they upheld it (and dramatically increased the penalty) during the review process. It might not have been willful originally.
 

Hawks46

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UK_Seahawk":3c9e9xez said:
jdblack":3c9e9xez said:
The NFL won in the 2004 case because the NFL was following the CBA.

Browner's situation is different because the CBA was not followed. Completely different.

Browner would have to prove that the NFL wilfully ignored their own rules. Just playing devils advocate here but I can kind of see the NFL's logic. The crux for me will be whether the NFL can make the point that even if Browner had left the NFL he still had to abide by their rules if he ever wanted to return.

I personally think Browner had a duty to work out where he was the SAP on his NFL return. I always find ignorance a very poor defense.

If I was Browner's lawyers, the tact I would take would be simple: my client was not bound by the rules of the CBA, as he was employed eslewhere. Not just unemployed, he was employed by the CFL, which isn't affiliated.

Any argument saying that if Browner ever wanted to get back to the NFL so he needs to follow the CBA is ridiculous. Now you're trying to argue a legal case by saying YOU think that Browner MIGHT be thinking a certain way.

No one knows exactly what Browner was thinking, but there aren't a lot of CFL players that make it back to the NFL. We tried that DE out before Browner, you have Flutie, and maybe another here or there. Browner actually started NFL teams scouting up there more than in the past. Historically, it's highly unlikely he makes it back to the NFL, so failed drug tests and follow up drug tests can't really factor into much.

Here's a list of things, put into perspective, that should show how thin the NFL's case is (if Browner can prove that he never received correspondence from the NFL).

1. Browner is no longer employed by the NFL. At that point he was actuallly employed by an unaffiliated sports league, that can also be looked at as somewhat competitive with the NFL. The language I've heard (3rd part through the news) is confusing, but Browner would've had to be sure that if he failed a drug test, he was required to follow up, even if not in the league. With the reaction of sports news media, all the other teams, and other players on this matter, it's obvious that no one understood he was still in the drug program while out of the NFL. This is in his favor, unless he specifically signed something saying he understood these rules.

2. Browner wasn't even employed in this COUNTRY. He was living in Canada (unless he's living in the US and commuting - highly unlikely). Can you really even enforce CBA rules to someone not even living here ? Think about that for a sec....it brings up a huge slate of issues.

3. Like I mentioned in point 1, there were a few teams looking at Browner besides the Seahawks. Everyone of them has publicy come out (at least to a sports media reporter) and said they had no idea Browner was still in the drug program.

4. There is language stating that if Browner was only in Phase 1 of the program, and he went a certain amount of time without testing positive again, he starts over in the program. The opposite actually happened to him. This also meshes with the fact that most teams trying him out also thought he was completely out of the program.

Personally, I think he wins this one. The facts that he was living in another country and playing in another league make him harder to contact for follow up (refuting the NFL's case that they sent him a letter, so they're exonerated), and employed by another sports league. Think on this: how is the NFL allowed to hold Browner to the CBA when he's not only not employed by the NFL, but employed by another sports league...what if the CFL has language in THEIR CBA that counters language in the NFL's CBA ? How can the NFL expect him to violate rules for a current employer because he worked for them briefly ? Can we not see the arrogance of the NFL here ?
 

Subzero717

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Not to get off topic but the new CBA screwed everyone but the QB's and owners.


To answer the op, yes.
 

SalishHawkFan

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Oh, the arrogance of the NFL can clearly be seen. It's the same arrogance displayed by nearly all major corporations.
 

EverydayImRusselin

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Hawks46":3bu5fjm9 said:
UK_Seahawk":3bu5fjm9 said:
jdblack":3bu5fjm9 said:
The NFL won in the 2004 case because the NFL was following the CBA.

Browner's situation is different because the CBA was not followed. Completely different.

Browner would have to prove that the NFL wilfully ignored their own rules. Just playing devils advocate here but I can kind of see the NFL's logic. The crux for me will be whether the NFL can make the point that even if Browner had left the NFL he still had to abide by their rules if he ever wanted to return.

I personally think Browner had a duty to work out where he was the SAP on his NFL return. I always find ignorance a very poor defense.

If I was Browner's lawyers, the tact I would take would be simple: my client was not bound by the rules of the CBA, as he was employed eslewhere. Not just unemployed, he was employed by the CFL, which isn't affiliated.

Any argument saying that if Browner ever wanted to get back to the NFL so he needs to follow the CBA is ridiculous. Now you're trying to argue a legal case by saying YOU think that Browner MIGHT be thinking a certain way.

No one knows exactly what Browner was thinking, but there aren't a lot of CFL players that make it back to the NFL. We tried that DE out before Browner, you have Flutie, and maybe another here or there. Browner actually started NFL teams scouting up there more than in the past. Historically, it's highly unlikely he makes it back to the NFL, so failed drug tests and follow up drug tests can't really factor into much.

Here's a list of things, put into perspective, that should show how thin the NFL's case is (if Browner can prove that he never received correspondence from the NFL).

1. Browner is no longer employed by the NFL. At that point he was actuallly employed by an unaffiliated sports league, that can also be looked at as somewhat competitive with the NFL. The language I've heard (3rd part through the news) is confusing, but Browner would've had to be sure that if he failed a drug test, he was required to follow up, even if not in the league. With the reaction of sports news media, all the other teams, and other players on this matter, it's obvious that no one understood he was still in the drug program while out of the NFL. This is in his favor, unless he specifically signed something saying he understood these rules.

2. Browner wasn't even employed in this COUNTRY. He was living in Canada (unless he's living in the US and commuting - highly unlikely). Can you really even enforce CBA rules to someone not even living here ? Think about that for a sec....it brings up a huge slate of issues.

3. Like I mentioned in point 1, there were a few teams looking at Browner besides the Seahawks. Everyone of them has publicy come out (at least to a sports media reporter) and said they had no idea Browner was still in the drug program.

4. There is language stating that if Browner was only in Phase 1 of the program, and he went a certain amount of time without testing positive again, he starts over in the program. The opposite actually happened to him. This also meshes with the fact that most teams trying him out also thought he was completely out of the program.

Personally, I think he wins this one. The facts that he was living in another country and playing in another league make him harder to contact for follow up (refuting the NFL's case that they sent him a letter, so they're exonerated), and employed by another sports league. Think on this: how is the NFL allowed to hold Browner to the CBA when he's not only not employed by the NFL, but employed by another sports league...what if the CFL has language in THEIR CBA that counters language in the NFL's CBA ? How can the NFL expect him to violate rules for a current employer because he worked for them briefly ? Can we not see the arrogance of the NFL here ?


If my memory serves me correctly, in addition to this Browner was supposed to be on suspension when the Seahawks signed him. The NFL overlooked this and by the time they figured it out, they decided t just go ahead and waive it. That has to lend some validity to his argument that he had special circumstances I would imagine.
 

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The defamation of character argument is pretty clear cut based on the NFL (through nfl network) leaking an incorrect story (positive PED test) when the only source of that information was Browner himself or the NFL (which knew he did not have a positive PED) and reporting that information anyway. The NFL Network is legally part of the NFL which negotiated the terms of privacy policies related to both PED and Illegal Substance tests. It's a unique situation in which an enormous corporation owns a media group to report on it's own business. Microsoft used to have a partnership with NBC (MSNBC). Imagine if MSNBC solely reported on matters related to Microsoft software, Microsoft stock, new hires at Microsoft, new board members etc. Now imagine if they started falsely reported on employee drug tests. That's essentially what the NFL did in Browner's case through Mike Silver's report.

It creates interesting conflicts with business confidentiality and journalistic ethics when the NFL has their own news organization.

The unfair labor aspect of Browner's potential claim is trickier. The court could refrain from judicial review because of the CBA or they could decide that the CBA contains nonenforceable unfair labor practices. The only way for either to happen is for someone affected by the situation to sue.

Jonathon Vilma's federal case in the Bountygate matter is telling to the current situation. The players were allowed to test their case in front of a federal judge, but the judge declined to rule because of uncertainty if she had the power based on the CBA and the arguments presented. It became moot when Vilma's suspension was decided on by the appeals panel of the NFL.

The CBA alone doesn't prevent the courts from getting involved. But anyone who does sue needs to show that the situation of the case exceeds the jurisdiction of the CBA or show that the CBA contains nonenforceable unfair labor practices.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/82551 ... than-vilma
 
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UK_Seahawk

UK_Seahawk

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EverydayImRusselin":3rlvh5nd said:
If my memory serves me correctly, in addition to this Browner was supposed to be on suspension when the Seahawks signed him. The NFL overlooked this and by the time they figured it out, they decided t just go ahead and waive it. That has to lend some validity to his argument that he had special circumstances I would imagine.

If Browner believed he was given special circumstances as you suggest wouldn't it have been prudent for clarification to have been gathered?

You can't just claim special circumstances when you don't know what they are exactly.

As for the he wasnt employed by the NFL argument, surely that becomes moot when he returns to the NFL? I think Browner will find it hard to argue against the fact the onus is on him to find out where he was in the SAP on his return (unless he was told incorrectly by the NFL, then culpability lies with the NFL again).

I still think the "courts" (not sure on jurisdiction here) will find that the CBA does apply and it should be dealt with as per NFL rules.

The defamation of character is a separate issue imho.
 

NorCal

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The NFL Network is a subsidiary of the NFL IIRC. But it is still its own entity, so any defamation claim would be against the network. Maybe not a huge distinction, but one nonetheless. So, I don't think this gets to the NFL proper. Much like GE owns several networks, lawsuits aren't going to make its way to GE's board. Anyways, I am not so sure the defamation claim is so open and shut. They are hard to prove, and Browner would have to show he was damaged by it. Seems to me that his suspension is what damaged him, not any erroneous report on NFL network. Now, if he is unable to be signed by any club as a result of that report, then maybe. But, again, hard to prove.
 

EverydayImRusselin

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UK_Seahawk":qfrzl4rv said:
EverydayImRusselin":qfrzl4rv said:
If my memory serves me correctly, in addition to this Browner was supposed to be on suspension when the Seahawks signed him. The NFL overlooked this and by the time they figured it out, they decided t just go ahead and waive it. That has to lend some validity to his argument that he had special circumstances I would imagine.

If Browner believed he was given special circumstances as you suggest wouldn't it have been prudent for clarification to have been gathered?

You can't just claim special circumstances when you don't know what they are exactly.

As for the he wasnt employed by the NFL argument, surely that becomes moot when he returns to the NFL? I think Browner will find it hard to argue against the fact the onus is on him to find out where he was in the SAP on his return (unless he was told incorrectly by the NFL, then culpability lies with the NFL again).

I still think the "courts" (not sure on jurisdiction here) will find that the CBA does apply and it should be dealt with as per NFL rules.

The defamation of character is a separate issue imho.

I do believe when he was initially signed, the NFL failed to inform him or the Seahawks about his SAP status. It wasn't until after he was already playing that it was brought up (I don't know when exactly).
 
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UK_Seahawk

UK_Seahawk

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NorCal":2tsjvan9 said:
The NFL Network is a subsidiary of the NFL IIRC. But it is still its own entity, so any defamation claim would be against the network. Maybe not a huge distinction, but one nonetheless. So, I don't think this gets to the NFL proper. Much like GE owns several networks, lawsuits aren't going to make its way to GE's board. Anyways, I am not so sure the defamation claim is so open and shut. They are hard to prove, and Browner would have to show he was damaged by it. Seems to me that his suspension is what damaged him, not any erroneous report on NFL network. Now, if he is unable to be signed by any club as a result of that report, then maybe. But, again, hard to prove.

I believe defamation is notoriously hard to prove in the US and even then, as you rightly say, you have to prove damages.

This is why it was de rigueur for foreigners to sue for defamation in the English courts. The process has since been made harder for non nationals, you have to now show the defamation occurred in the UK.
 

Basis4day

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NorCal":23dqitcz said:
The NFL Network is a subsidiary of the NFL IIRC. But it is still its own entity, so any defamation claim would be against the network. Maybe not a huge distinction, but one nonetheless. So, I don't think this gets to the NFL proper. Much like GE owns several networks, lawsuits aren't going to make its way to GE's board. Anyways, I am not so sure the defamation claim is so open and shut. They are hard to prove, and Browner would have to show he was damaged by it. Seems to me that his suspension is what damaged him, not any erroneous report on NFL network. Now, if he is unable to be signed by any club as a result of that report, then maybe. But, again, hard to prove.

The NFL network is legally the same entity as it is fully owned an operated by the NFL itself. It is not incorporated as its own business entity like ESPN.

So if you have a lawsuit against ESPN your claims would be directed at ESPN, Inc., not it's ownership group in Disney and the Hearst Corporation.

Mike Florio lays it out better than i can. While PFT is the TMZ of football, Florio's legal analysis is fairly spot on because of his background as an attorney.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... t-the-nfl/
 

Lords of Scythia

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In America the contract is a battlefield on which two parties go to war. And yeah--there's a few Bonapartes out there.
 
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