In Defense of the Seahawks Receivers

Shock2k

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It's strange to see so much discontent coming from the Seahawks fans around the receiving core. I'm wondering if it's just because of the Arizona game, or have you (those that are unhappy) been unhappy the entire season? I think they are one of the best "catching" cores in the league. Yes via eye test with the amazing catches these guys produce week in and week out, but also I think through some supporting stats.

Here is our primary receiving core, except is based on ratio's and percentages of targets/receptions. We are 31st in the league in pass attempts so this is the only way to evaluate vs. the rest of the league. I've added in Denver's receiving core as a comparison (as they are the best passing offense that also spreads the ball around). Realize that Payton Manning is behind the #1 Passing O-Line in the League and Russell is behind the 30th.

To keep perspective WR1's are the first 32 ranks of receivers in the league (by my opinion) WR2's are the 33 through 64 ranked receivers in the league.
PLAYERTEAMRECTARRec%Rank
Julius Thomas,TEDEN608471%2nd
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA507269%4th
Golden Tate,WRSEA568963%27th
Eric Decker,WRDEN8313263%29th
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN8613763%30th
Zach Miller,TESEA305159%51st
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA223858%54th
PLAYERTEAMAVGYDSRank
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA15.714th
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA15.617th
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN15.322nd
Eric Decker,WRDEN15.224th
Golden Tate,WRSEA13.743rd
Julius Thomas,TEDEN12.562nd
Zach Miller,TESEA12.265th
PLAYERTEAMTDTD%Rank
Julius Thomas,TEDEN1214%2nd
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA411%8th
Zach Miller,TESEA510%10th
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN129%11th
Eric Decker,WRDEN108%19th
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA57%34th
Golden Tate,WRSEA44%48th
PLAYERTEAM20+20+/Rec%Rank
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA1419%4th
Eric Decker,WRDEN1914%19th
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA513%31st
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN1813%32nd
Golden Tate,WRSEA1112%38th
Julius Thomas,TEDEN1012%41st
Zach Miller,TESEA36%79th
PLAYERTEAMYACYAC/RECRank
Golden Tate,WRSEA4518.052nd
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN6337.366th
Julius Thomas,TEDEN3485.8016th
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA2484.9636th
Zach Miller,TESEA1424.7344th
Eric Decker,WRDEN3454.1660th
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA562.5579th
PLAYERTEAM1DN1DN/TAR%Rank
Doug Baldwin,WRSEA3650%2nd
Eric Decker,WRDEN6045%12th
Demaryius Thomas,WRDEN6245%13th
Julius Thomas,TEDEN3845%14th
Jermaine Kearse,WRSEA1642%31st
Golden Tate,WRSEA3539%48th
Zach Miller,TESEA1835%63rd

Doug Baldwin ranks #2 in almost every category. And Tate is the #2 YAC receiver in the league.

P.S. Anyone know how to "Left Align" a table. This centering is irritating.
 

bigdaddydave

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Sorry, but you can show me all the tables, stats, and graphs that show how great or adequate or receivers are but their is no one on our team that could even compare to a WR1 like Demaryius Thomas. Russell deserves someone like him as our franchise quarterback and it is really starting to piss me off that PC & JS fail to show the offense some love.

What do you think the results would be if a team manned Demaryius Thomas most of the game like they do the Hawk's receivers?
 

-The Glove-

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Nobody was complaining about our WR corps a couple weeks ago. So now all of a sudden, they suck? Some people are just too spoiled. We do need a number 1 but ain't nothing we can do about it. Percy and Rice is out and the other guys have done an admirable job minus 2 or 3 games without them
 
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Shock2k

Shock2k

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bigdaddydave":3i8rdkva said:
Sorry, but you can show me all the tables, stats, and graphs that show how great or adequate or receivers are but their is no one on our team that could even compare to a WR1 like Demaryius Thomas. Russell deserves someone like him as our franchise quarterback and it is really starting to piss me off that PC & JS fail to show the offense some love.

What do you think the results would be if a team manned Demaryius Thomas most of the game like they do the Hawk's receivers?

After the Arizona game we are now the 32nd worst pass protecting team in the NFL. (We were 30th before the game). I honestly don't know as Thomas isn't here, but given how I know how amazingly accurate long term numbers are, I would say the production would be about the same.

Let me put that in context. If the QB is making mistakes because of hurries, sacks, and QB hits, it "technically" wouldn't statistically matter if you had Calvin Johnson out there, if you can't get the ball to him effectively. Or as some people have suggested the scheme doesn't allow many open receiving lanes.

I'm not trying to compare our receiving core to Damaryus/Julius Thomas, Welker and Decker. It's a different team with a different line.

Maybe a counter would be, what would these receivers be doing if Russell had the #1 o-line in the league like Manning? I would venture to guess this wouldn't even be a discussion, and we would be 14-1 right now.

By the way, our run O-line is 9th overall in the league (but has been dropping the 3 weeks).
 

IndyHawk

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Shock2k":94zq23bi said:
bigdaddydave":94zq23bi said:
Sorry, but you can show me all the tables, stats, and graphs that show how great or adequate or receivers are but their is no one on our team that could even compare to a WR1 like Demaryius Thomas. Russell deserves someone like him as our franchise quarterback and it is really starting to piss me off that PC & JS fail to show the offense some love.

What do you think the results would be if a team manned Demaryius Thomas most of the game like they do the Hawk's receivers?

After the Arizona game we are now the 32nd worst pass protecting team in the NFL. (We were 30th before the game). I honestly don't know as Thomas isn't here, but given how I know how amazingly accurate long term numbers are, I would say the production would be about the same.

Let me put that in context. If the QB is making mistakes because of hurries, sacks, and QB hits, it "technically" wouldn't statistically matter if you had Calvin Johnson out there, if you can't get the ball to him effectively. Or as some people have suggested the scheme doesn't allow many open receiving lanes.

I'm not trying to compare our receiving core to Damaryus/Julius Thomas, Welker and Decker. It's a different team with a different line.

Maybe a counter would be, what would these receivers be doing if Russell had the #1 o-line in the league like Manning? I would venture to guess this wouldn't even be a discussion, and we would be 14-1 right now.

By the way, our run O-line is 9th overall in the league (but has been dropping the 3 weeks).
Denvers line is good but no better than the Hawks..The difference here is Peyton the guy is 6:5 audibles in/out of plays like the master he is ..When he does pass he reads whats open so fast all the wr has to do is run the route- the ball will be there ..Pm throws very quick before most def can get in there to even touch him.
 

JonRud

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bigdaddydave":10i5jz4h said:
Sorry, but you can show me all the tables, stats, and graphs that show how great or adequate or receivers are but their is no one on our team that could even compare to a WR1 like Demaryius Thomas. Russell deserves someone like him as our franchise quarterback and it is really starting to piss me off that PC & JS fail to show the offense some love.

What do you think the results would be if a team manned Demaryius Thomas most of the game like they do the Hawk's receivers?

What does that mean 'PC & JS fail to show the offense some love'? PC & JS gave Sidney Rice a ton of money and traded a 1st round pick for Percy Harvin. Yes it sucks they are both injured, but it's not like PC & JS just ignored the position. Those two guys should be our #1 and #2 WR.
 

kjreid

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I think we have a great WR corp, we just need a 1, get Harvin and Rice back and all of a sudden we have a dynamic WR corp. if you do not have a top flight then it is two easy to man 2 man everyone allow the safeties to give assistance as needed. you get a 1 all of a sudden they are zone and covering one a WR over the top, it opens up so much more room for every wide receiver. Demariyus Thomas makes Decker and Julius Thomas absolute studs because no defense can give (not many) help on those two when they are leaning towards DT.
 

djb28

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Randy Moss says he can still produce 15 or 16 TDs.. :sarcasm_on:
 

hawker84

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You can have megatron and Fitzgerald both in there and it won't matter if you can't pass protect and give a qb some time. The problem starts with the O line.
 

brimsalabim

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We have to change something right? WE have to either find away for our receivers to gain seperation quickly or we have to protect better to allow them more time to gain seperation. I have heard the NFL network guys say that we need to do a more creative job with our route design. Keep in mind this is a group of NFL hall of fammers saying this so I'm thinking that is an issue. If Harvin could have played he probably would have affected the coverage enough to open things up but at this point that calvery ain't comming. Change what we can.
 

Grahamhawker

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Shock2k":3ubn1yd5 said:
It's strange to see so much discontent coming for the Seahawks receiving core. I'm wondering if it's just because of the Arizona game, or have you (those that are unhappy) have been unhappy the entire season? I think they are one of the best "catching" cores in the league. Yes via eye test with the amazing catches these guys produce week in and week out, but also I think through some supporting stats.


Doug Baldwin ranks #2 in almost every category. And Tate is the #2 YAC receiver in the league.


Most important stats there to me are Baldwins catch/target % and Tates' YAC :th2thumbs:

I think some of the discontent has been a long time building, but coming to a head after losing 2/3.

IMO our wrs are good at what they are and what they can do. But they're guys teams can cover with man- Not scaring any defense. And size is a factor- especially with Russell. Shorter receivers need more separation to be open. Simple.

For me, the discontent arises from seeing Rice and Harvin ((and their salaries) on the side lines basically all year. Add either to the mix, we look ok. Take BOTH out, how can our receiver corp not appear depleted?
 

RichNhansom

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Manning operates primarily on timing routes. For that to work the receivers and the QB need to be dialed into each other like back when Hasselbeck was throwing to Tjack and Engram. The WC Offense is suppose to be based primarily on timing routes and we supposedly run a version of a WCO but I rarely see us run any timing routes so either our receivers and QB aren't on the same page or we just aren't calling timing route plays.

The thing is timing route plays if executed properly are very difficult to stop. It almost requires that the defense predict the exact play call and are in position to break it up. It does require that your QB can diagnose a defense presnap and be able to audible out of the play if needed so that could be part of the problem also. This is also why Alexander had so much success. Matt audibling into a play that put the defense out of position to stop the run. Maybe Wilson just isn't ready to read defenses like a 4 year pro. Most QB's take a few years to really get to their pinnacle of performance and reading defenses is one of the final pieces to that puzzle.

I don't see us as a WCO though. We look to me to be set up more traditionally with a true #1 (tried with Rice but have went after this type of receiver every off season) a dynamic #2 ( we have in either Baldwin or Tate) and a true slot guy (would be Harvin or Baldwin if Rice weren't injured). We don't know what we have in Kearse yet though right now he looks like a very solid back up who will eventually become a good #2 and is doing decent all things considered. Lockette I see as fodder. Getting playing time due to injury but will never become anything more than a league back up. Kind of like Charlie Martin.

The thing about the O-line though is you could line up 5 all pros and still not get what you want. The O-line will eventually get tired, out of position and injured when they are required to block repeatedly for extended periods of time. Add to that it's not traditional blocking. Wilson is usually all over the pocket and often out of it. You can't expect your O-line to not try and move to protect him and that puts them out of position and scheme.

I think for us to have success in this playoff run we are going to have to be more effective in a true WCO style. We are going to have to improve on timing routes and get the ball out quicker. We don't have the dynamic receiving core right now needed to spread defenses out and our running game is taking a hit because of it. Get the ball out in a timely manner and we will see improvement from the O-line as well as the running game. We have speed with Lockette and Baldwin and a true YAC monster in Tate but we can't utilize that if we can't get the ball to them.
 

Grahamhawker

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RichNhansom":8p5ikafb said:
I think for us to have success in this playoff run we are going to have to be more effective in a true WCO style. We are going to have to improve on timing routes and get the ball out quicker. We don't have the dynamic receiving core right now needed to spread defenses out and our running game is taking a hit because of it. Get the ball out in a timely manner and we will see improvement from the O-line as well as the running game. We have speed with Lockette and Baldwin and a true YAC monster in Tate but we can't utilize that if we can't get the ball to them.

This!
 

Vetamur

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I havent suddenly started saying this.. I wrote about this in the preseason, I wrote about it in the early season.. I think I may have mentioned this is in my abortive Smoke Signals.

Our receivers do not get lots of seperation. Early in the season that was a pretty big problem, as Wilson wasnt wanting to throw to them unless they were WAY open.. then midway through this season he started doing what he did last year: throw it to a covered receiver, but throw it such that he has the best chance to get it, or only he can get it. Let him make the play. Tate , Rice, and Baldwin and Kearse share 2 traits in common: they adjust well to the ball and they control and use the last yard and half of the field towards the sideline well. Most of the time this has been working. Sometimes probablity is going to catch up.. last game Kearse and Tate in particular didnt come down with some difficult catches they often do..when that happens in bunches its going to be tough. But I am not sure we should read too much into it.

Upgrading the WR set would be nice but I think we have other priorities..and I am not sure I want a "true #1"..if you get a true number 1 (I truly hate that phrasing).. then OCs plan around those guys and quality defenses can shut that down. It actually , to me, is better to have 3 "8"s at WR than a 10, and 2 7s. Some teams have close to a shut down corner.. so they put him on your 10.. then you are left trying to scheme him open or trying to throw to markedly inferior WRs. I prefer a spread it around offense. Which is another problem..a lot of "true #1s" wouldnt like playing for PC, because true number ones often are diva-ish.. the idea that Tate or Baldwin or Rice are all about equally likely to get the ball on any one pass play makes us hard to defend..more so when Wilson extends plays.

Just my 2 cents
 

Largent80

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People here were crapping all over Rice because of money he makes, but I am fairly certain he would be welcomed back if he were healthy.
 

chris98251

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I think Wilson is bypassing guys or not seeing them one of the two, I have seen guys open and he has went for the deeper ball, I also see back side of the field players open when he does his scramble and he doesn't see them unless he does his whip around reverse to the other side and then they are wide open and he will throw that deep high pass on the run.

Wilson has a habit of holding the ball for a lengthy time as it is, getting the ball out fast and getting a rhythm on offense I think would help everyone. It would also make the line and receivers look better as well as save wear and tear on him.

Defenders are not respecting the middle of the the field, we rarely throw the quick slant or seam routes to WR or TE's so they just back peddle now and wait for the WR's to break to the edge. We don't do a lot of rub routes either or pick and roll plays. All quick stuff that pulls defenders forward and spreads them out at the same time.

This is the confusing part, we throw to the edge a lot, either where only we can catch it or its out of bounds. This has to be design or a selection of intent, yes if you miss a read you can get a pick 6, but if you don't you are letting like 60 percent of the feild be unused also making it easier to defend since you simply don't go there and teams will cheat to the edge and completly shut it down.
 

Sgt. Largent

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chris98251":2m116kro said:
I think Wilson is bypassing guys or not seeing them one of the two, I have seen guys open and he has went for the deeper ball, I also see back side of the field players open when he does his scramble and he doesn't see them unless he does his whip around reverse to the other side and then they are wide open and he will throw that deep high pass on the run.

Wilson has a habit of holding the ball for a lengthy time as it is, getting the ball out fast and getting a rhythm on offense I think would help everyone. It would also make the line and receivers look better as well as save wear and tear on him.

Defenders are not respecting the middle of the the field, we rarely throw the quick slant or seam routes to WR or TE's so they just back peddle now and wait for the WR's to break to the edge. We don't do a lot of rub routes either or pick and roll plays. All quick stuff that pulls defenders forward and spreads them out at the same time.

This is the confusing part, we throw to the edge a lot, either where only we can catch it or its out of bounds. This has to be design or a selection of intent, yes if you miss a read you can get a pick 6, but if you don't you are letting like 60 percent of the feild be unused also making it easier to defend since you simply don't go there and teams will cheat to the edge and completly shut it down.

There's definitely some truth to Russell sometimes missing closer receivers because he's looking way downfield for the home run.

Which is awesome when he hits it. But not so awesome when it was 3rd and 3 and he throws a 40 yard incomplete pass instead of running for the first or throwing a short pass. This is also why a lot of these teams are playing super aggressive press coverage and loading the box with 8-9 defenders. They're gambling that they can get to Russell before something breaks open deep.
 

MontanaHawk05

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Our receivers are really good at certain things: making contested catches, getting open on extended scrambles, toe-tapping, and controlling the redline by boxing defenders away from the sideline. Wilson makes the most of these things, but sometimes it leads to a feast-or-famine situation.

As for Sunday, it's been from the players how we were looking to get home runs against Arizona's man coverage on the outside. The Cards DB's just did a brilliant job of mixing up their arms and futzing up every big catch, each and every time. It was a brilliant job by their defense and practically no credit is being given them.

Also, I wouldn't put much stock in a #1 receiver being a miracle for Seattle. I sense Pete and John aren't done searching, BUT Russell Wilson isn't the type of QB to pepper a #1 with targets. He's a spread-the-wealth kinda guy.
 
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