Will Thurmond win the job over Browner...?

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  • We shall see.

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    I still think they would prefer Brandon's physicality, but who knows...?
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  • Would it be a bad thing if they split time on the outside? Browner is epic 75% of the time, but there are certain match ups that are really tough for him. Someone a little smaller/more agile like Thurmond could be a solid change up in those situations.
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  • I doubt it happens, but even if he did BB would probably get it back after a few weeks....I have zero faith in Thurmonds ability to stay healthy, which sucks because he's looked really good in the few games he's played
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  • yeah i think PC would go by the match up becuase Browner don't have Sherman's speed and agility to play against anybody. Thurmond does but he don't have Browner's physicallity so i think if the match up was say Steve Smith from the panthers you start Thurmond.
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  • I would love to have thurmond be the starter and use Browner for depth behind Thurmond and Kam. I think thurmond is the better corner.
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  • LOL . Browner is the secret ingredient the the Legion of Boom. If Thurmond can stay healthy ( quote everybody 1,000,000,000 times) and shows that he can ball then he will see the field more in nickel and dime situations.

    But not too replace BB!! Brandon Browner is a top 5 cb. and constantly gets disrespected.


    Im starting to think we may trade one of these guys to Gus Bradley
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  • I'd be surprised to see Thurmond take the spot, but I'd love if they'd do spot starts with him against teams with smaller quick WR.
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  • I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.
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  • Wow, you guys are harsh on Browner...Pro Bowl Browner
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.


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  • SalishHawkFan wrote:Wow, you guys are harsh on Browner...Pro Bowl Browner


    I don't see anyone being "harsh" on Browner. What did I miss?

    :?:

    It's more about the possibility Thurmond may pass him up. The assumption all along is it would be Thurmond or Winfield in the slot... I doubt anyone seriously considered Thurmond could perhaps take the starting spot.

    Just an interesting thing to watch.
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  • I just cannot see replacing BB right now dude just has too much heart and presence on the field.Everyone seems to forget He is constantly making turnovers.WT3 gonna have to do more than look good in practice.I want to see him take a receivers heart like BB does.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.

    Chicago game aside, I don't recall Browner getting burnt a lot last season. In what games did he get burned? I think some of you are getting a little carried away with the Thurmond hype
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.


    Maybe not as a cover corner, but don't underestimate the effect his physicality has on the mindset of receivers, too often they become so engrossed in trying to beat Browner physically that they lose track of what they're supposed to be doing - running routes and catching balls.
    Sherman is better at it with his combination of wordplay and physicality (see Steve Smith at Carolina last year), but Browner is no slouch.
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  • Browner is just a damn good football player. Thurmond might be a more natural cover corner, but Browner is a huge asset on screens, short dump off's and running plays. It's like having an extra linebacker on the field. There is a reason teams drop so many balls against us, and Browner is a big part of that. Browner gets into wr's heads. Can Thurmond do all that? I don't think so.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner.


    That is because you haven't seen Thurmond play all that much.

    The absolute truth is this statement can't be rooted in data and is much more of a biased perception of Brandon Browner - probably stemming from a handful of games that stick out - (him covering Mike Wallace comes to mind).

    Nevertheless, the best statement would be to say that you haven't seen enough of Walter Thurmond to make an accurate assessment. Can you really back a guy that hard when he has started five games in his career? If anything, Winfield may be the odd man out.

    Besides I have have seen many many good things from Browner. Beyond his size (which can't be stressed enough in a Carroll run defense) and durability (which cannot simply be ignored) he had 64 passes to his side last season and he gave up 30 receptions. His 5.5 yards/target is the 3rd best in the league. His adjusted success rate - which takes into account penalties was 61% - good for 10th. He certainly benefits from playing opposite Sherman but he is no slouch himself and is well above average as a second outside corner. Anyone remember Kelly Jennings?

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  • Browner should be used like the enforcer in hockey. Bring him in to give hard checks, then sit him in the penalty box for a bit. I still love seeing the fight he got into in the Green Bay game.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.


    I rarely get to read a more un-informed post on any website, let alone a seahawk fan site.

    Maybe this guy is right, and we should be starting the physically intimidating Thurmond. Would someone queue up the highlight reel of the big hits and strip fumble recoveries from the probowler Thurmond?
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  • TDOTSEAHAWK wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner.


    The absolute truth is this statement can't be rooted in data and is much more of a biased perception of Brandon Browner - probably stemming from a handful of games that stick out - (him covering Mike Wallace comes to mind).


    Therefore, the "if" that I included in my post, which you and four other posters apparently missed.

    But by all means, keep carefully snipping my post in your replies, folks. Ahhh, how I've missed being dismissed for going against the grain.
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  • I went ahead and found those elite highlights of the new RCB for our defense. Get out BB!


    EDIT: Oh here is our starting corner!

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  • Browner is probably the league's nastiest press corner, and he combines that with smart play, good awareness, a big wingspan and soft hands. He's actually pretty fast in a dead sprint too, its just that he lacks fluidity which really hurts him against quicker receivers with regards to short area quickness. Browner is also a very nice player to have in run support. Browner was a legit pro-bowler in 2011 and was even better in 2012 (disqualified - Adderall).

    So it's with no disrespect when I agree with many others that Thurmond is the better of the two. Thurmond's ball skills rival Sherman's, and the rest of his game isn't terribly far behind. Maybe Thurmond really can't stay healthy, but if he does stay on the field, he's on his way to doing great things.

    IIRC, Pete didn't shy away from getting his backup DBs on the field last season, even before we lost Browner. So I expect we'll see a lot of rotating at the position, and both will be 2013 contributors.
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  • Its nice to talk about what we would like to see, or want to see, from different bench talents on this team. We happen to be so lucky as to have a lot of talent in the defensive backfield right now.

    But make no mistake, only one person calling themselves a DB on this team is going to make this play:

    (can't embed its the strip fumble that changed the game in Carolina last year)

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000078006/Browner-forces-and-recovers-fumble
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  • kearly wrote:
    IIRC, Pete didn't shy away from getting his backup DBs on the field last season, even before we lost Browner. So I expect we'll see a lot of rotating at the position, and both will be 2013 contributors.


    From Football Outsiders (all season): http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

    Jeron Johnson - 13% of defensive snaps
    Byron Maxwell - 14% of defensive snaps
    Jeremy Lane - 16% of defensive snaps
    Marcus Trufant - 35% of defensive snaps
    Walter Thurmond - 7% of defensive snaps
    Brandon Browner - 74% of defensive snaps

    Just to give everyone an idea of how these numbers actually did bear out last year, keeping in mind injuries and suspensions.
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  • Smaller receivers can go ahead and catch the ball, but they won't get far.

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    I like Thurmond, but he just doesn't strike fear into the heart of opposing receivers like Browner does.
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  • Beeker wrote:Its nice to talk about what we would like to see, or want to see, from different bench talents on this team. We happen to be so lucky as to have a lot of talent in the defensive backfield right now.

    But make no mistake, only one person calling themselves a DB on this team is going to make this play:

    (can't embed its the strip fumble that changed the game in Carolina last year)

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000078006/Browner-forces-and-recovers-fumble

    Bench talent? He was once the starting corner over Sherman. I don't think Thurmond should get the nod over BB like some (I'd actually like to see him as the nickel) but he's definitely not a "bench talent".
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  • All I know is if WT3 is healthy, good lord our secondary is LOADED.
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  • UGotHawked wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. Better hitter, maybe, but let's not get so absorbed with the Legion of Boom that we forget the art of playing cornerback. Browner is a plus-size Big Play Babs; positive plays interspersed with getting burnt too often, rather than consistent excellence. If WT3 can offer better, he deserves the job.


    I've seen one thing - HEALTH.



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  • Tech Worlds wrote:I would love to have thurmond be the starter and use Browner for depth behind Thurmond and Kam. I think thurmond is the better corner.


    I still see Browner as an awesome SS, I know that position is filled, but..I think he would be perfect in it.
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  • -The Glove- wrote:
    Beeker wrote:Its nice to talk about what we would like to see, or want to see, from different bench talents on this team. We happen to be so lucky as to have a lot of talent in the defensive backfield right now.

    But make no mistake, only one person calling themselves a DB on this team is going to make this play:

    (can't embed its the strip fumble that changed the game in Carolina last year)

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000078006/Browner-forces-and-recovers-fumble

    Bench talent? He was once the starting corner over Sherman. I don't think Thurmond should get the nod over BB like some (I'd actually like to see him as the nickel) but he's definitely not a "bench talent".


    Then start a Thurmond over Sherman thread.

    I did say we are so lucky in this regard. I've been a fan long enough to remember when it wasn't fun to talk about the DBs and who might start.
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  • Beeker wrote:
    -The Glove- wrote:
    Beeker wrote:Its nice to talk about what we would like to see, or want to see, from different bench talents on this team. We happen to be so lucky as to have a lot of talent in the defensive backfield right now.

    But make no mistake, only one person calling themselves a DB on this team is going to make this play:

    (can't embed its the strip fumble that changed the game in Carolina last year)

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000078006/Browner-forces-and-recovers-fumble

    Bench talent? He was once the starting corner over Sherman. I don't think Thurmond should get the nod over BB like some (I'd actually like to see him as the nickel) but he's definitely not a "bench talent".


    Then start a Thurmond over Sherman thread.

    I did say we are so lucky in this regard. I've been a fan long enough to remember when it wasn't fun to talk about the DBs and who might start.

    Lol what?

    From the looks of it, it still isn't fun for you. Relax a bit. :grin:
    Last edited by -The Glove- on Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Health is relevant to any player. Thurmond could have had a run of bad luck. I think they want to see if he can hold up for a year, in case we can't resign Sherman.

    I see them doing much like they are doing with the DL and LB , situation with the corners. The starter? We will see let the best player win it
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  • It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post
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  • We haven't really seen 'Lil 'Walt play.
    BB, however, is a Pro Bowler.

    Remains to be seen.
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  • Tech Worlds wrote:It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post


    Care to elaborate?

    Homers or not... I'll root for whoever starts at the #2 spot. I am partial to last years look though. Just love the size of BB. WTIII has yet to stay healthy, maybe this is Walters year? Perhaps. Go Hawks
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  • I would love to see Thurmond beat out Browner. For a handful of reasons.

    First of all, I think Thurmond is hands down a more talented player skill wise. And if he was to beat out BB, that would mean he earned it. Both guys have talent. But if realized, I feel that Thurmond's skills are the safer bet.

    Browner's good. Don't get me wrong. What he brings to the Hawks' defense is key and plays a big role in them being successful. But I feel that a big portion of his success is his ability to be allowed to play extremely physical. This is something that, if a ref feels as such, can be taken away. Browner purely skill wise isn't the player we see him as. He's good. But A LOT of his game depends on being allowed to smack wr's around. That's something that quite frankly, I worry about. I've seen games like the playoff game against Washington last year where I was waiting for the following game officiating backlash. That the ref's watched the game tape and saw Browner body slamming wr's down field. And go into the next game keyed in on him, waiting to throw a flag.

    Also, Thurmond is younger by about 3 or so years. If I get to pick the scenario where both players are at peak value, I want to go with the guy who isn't pushing 30.

    And lastly, I think Thurmond will be much cheaper to re-sign. We all know that Richard Sherman is going to get paid BIG TIME. You can't afford to spend that much on the guy opposite him. Especially after paying big money to Kam and ET. If there is a sacrificial lamb that you can't pay amongst the LOB, it's Browner. Even if Thurmond doesn't hit it big for the Hawks, I really can't see them giving Browner that big of a contract. You can only sink in so much $ into your defense, let alone secondary.

    All that said, if Thurmond doesn't clearly win the job over Browner, end of story. My post is mostly a perfect scenario hypothetical, and in that case, what I'd prefer. Thurmond's got talent. But dude's got a long ways to go to prove he can stay healthy.
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  • Jordan... If thurmond wins the job and can stay healthy he will cost us more to resign then Browner for all the reasons you posted.

    Browner won't have much value on the open market as imo he is only a fit on our team and has Earl there to cover his deficiencies.
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  • Thurmond has been impressive when we've got to see him play, problem is that it isn't too much.
    I would love for him to beat out browner, but I would hate to have to decide between the two if it came down to it.
    I honestly think Thurmond is a special talent.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. .


    I have. Starts, INTs, PDs, FFs,TFLs and a probowl.

    I don't think any of us have seen enough of Thurmond in live game action to rationally suggest that he is a probowl caliber player; that is optimism taken slightly too far.
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  • SalishHawkFan wrote:Wow, you guys are harsh on Browner...Pro Bowl Browner

    Yep, just goes to show ya that some around here couldn't run things like Pete does.
    Why do you think Pete put Browner back into action, as soon as he was available last Season?, because of Browners intimidating style of play.
    His size, and aggression DOES matter to those playing against him.
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  • kobebryant wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. .


    I have. Starts, INTs, PDs, FFs,TFLs and a probowl.

    I don't think any of us have seen enough of Thurmond in live game action to rationally suggest that he is a probowl caliber player; that is optimism taken slightly too far.

    THIS!
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  • Tech Worlds wrote:It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post

    Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
    Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.
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  • scutterhawk wrote:
    kobebryant wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. .


    I have. Starts, INTs, PDs, FFs,TFLs and a probowl.

    I don't think any of us have seen enough of Thurmond in live game action to rationally suggest that he is a probowl caliber player; that is optimism taken slightly too far.

    THIS!



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  • Agreed with the past few posts. LOL at the people asking what Browner has shown us vs. what Thurmond has shown us. I was pumped for Thurmond out of college and think he has talent. People saying he no question is the more talented? Based on what? His junior year of college? Thurmond is still halfway through his first cup of NFL coffee in terms of playing time. He looked pretty good in three games. Fantastic! What has Thurmond shown us? IMO he has shown us that he needs quite a bit longer track record of being able to stay on the field before you risk pissing off one of your better starting players.

    Browner is also still improving. He's already damn good. There isn't a single team in the NFL he wouldn't start for. Of course it would be a good thing if Thurmond outplays him, but to say Thurmond has earned the chance to start after 8 healthy practices is borderline idiotic. Sure, let him run with the 1s a few times to see what he's got and to press Browner to play better. But demote your very good CB for a guy that hasn't shown anything besides looking good in street clothes? Out of the 34 games the Seahawks have played the last two years, Thurmond has been healthy enough to play in 8. If Browner wasn't damn good, sure, roll the dice, but lets see Thurmond can manage to suit up for a few games before we get too far ahead of ourselves.
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  • Tech Worlds wrote:Jordan... If thurmond wins the job and can stay healthy he will cost us more to resign then Browner for all the reasons you posted.

    Browner won't have much value on the open market as imo he is only a fit on our team and has Earl there to cover his deficiencies.


    Yeah, that would be true. But that would be in a scenario where Thurmond looks all-pro out there. In my thinking, he merely looks like he's finally starting to click. Which in that case, coupled with his injury history, would likely lead to still having to prove a bit. Where as Browner can point to making the pro bowl and producing for multiple seasons. And while he does have more value to us than many teams. More teams are going after bigger corners in the wake of our success.

    I can see the Hawks re-signing Browner. But it would have to be at a reasonable deal. Maybe you're right, and there aren't any teams out there wanting to give him much due to his age and unique game. In that case, I'd be fine with keeping him.

    And for the record to any folks scoffing at those of us talking up Thurmond and downplaying Browner. I most certainly agree that Thurmond needs to prove he can stay healthy and consistently produce. That remains a gigantic hurdle for him.
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  • This is a load of garbage. Browner has made multiple game changing clutch plays (Giants, Packers, Panthers) and sets the tone for the physicality of this defense. I'll take Browner any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
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  • Browner also cost us a game in 2011 with the same sort of vulnerability he often displays. KEEP READING. YOU'RE ALREADY CHECKING OUT, ASSUMING WHAT THE REST OF MY POST WILL LOOK LIKE, AND PLANNING YOUR OWN. STICK WITH ME. I'M STILL TALKING.

    I guess I'm not often one to appeal to intangibles. I'll grant that our physicality has made a distinct difference in the way certain teams hold up against us, but that's only part of the picture. Consider that the defense pivots on Earl Thomas, a much smaller guy who will never dominate big receivers like Browner can. It's a reminder that it takes a lot of skill sets to complete a defense. Browner has his uses, has a knack for turnovers, and certainly holds nothing back when he plays for us. But he's not a shutdown corner - lacks fluidity, lacks trustworthiness on deeper plays, and as others have pointed out, his play style is a penalty magnet. He did get better in 2012.

    I think some people have the idea that Thurmond has never played a regular season down for Seattle. He's played in 22 games in three seasons. Frustrated sarcasm over his frequent injuries are bound to cloud people's view of him, but he HAS flashed tremendous talent - of the shutdown variety - in his limited time on the field. And it's not like he was a Ruskell leftover. He was drafted and faithfully retained by the same administration, with the same coverage vision, that scrounged up Browner and made him a Pro Bowler.

    All I'm saying is, the RCB spot should still be considered open to competition. That's not a knock on Browner in this case; it's a compliment to Thurmond. It's a good problem to have, really.
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    MontanaHawk05
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  • Pete Carroll just discussed the nickel spot between Winfield and Thurmond as "a real battle" while .net fights over who should start between BB and WT3. Fantastic.

    All will see significant playing time - and that is awesome.
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    TheLargentLine
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Browner also cost us a game in 2011 with the same sort of vulnerability he often displays. KEEP READING. YOU'RE ALREADY CHECKING OUT, ASSUMING WHAT THE REST OF MY POST WILL LOOK LIKE, AND PLANNING YOUR OWN. STICK WITH ME. I'M STILL TALKING.

    I guess I'm not often one to appeal to intangibles. I'll grant that our physicality has made a distinct difference in the way certain teams hold up against us, but that's only part of the picture. Consider that the defense pivots on Earl Thomas, a much smaller guy who will never dominate big receivers like Browner can. It's a reminder that it takes a lot of skill sets to complete a defense. Browner has his uses, has a knack for turnovers, and certainly holds nothing back when he plays for us. But he's not a shutdown corner - lacks fluidity, lacks trustworthiness on deeper plays, and as others have pointed out, his play style is a penalty magnet. He did get better in 2012.

    I think some people have the idea that Thurmond has never played a regular season down for Seattle. He's played in 22 games in three seasons. Frustrated sarcasm over his frequent injuries are bound to cloud people's view of him, but he HAS flashed tremendous talent - of the shutdown variety - in his limited time on the field. And it's not like he was a Ruskell leftover. He was drafted and faithfully retained by the same administration, with the same coverage vision, that scrounged up Browner and made him a Pro Bowler.

    All I'm saying is, the RCB spot should still be considered open to competition. That's not a knock on Browner in this case; it's a compliment to Thurmond. It's a good problem to have, really.

    Good read. I just have a few questions, maybe digging a little bit.

    In how many of those 22 games did Thurmond play significant time at corner?

    Put the over/under at 12 games, and you have to bet your house. Does Thurmond play more or less this season?

    I would argue that just about every player in the league has flashed significant talent at some point.

    I agree that the RCB should be open to competition, as with every position. I would argue, however, that ANY player drafted in the 4th round because of injury concerns that has shown very little on the field and has missed far more games than they have played would have a right to be considered in that competition, unless the starter is really, really bad.

    I'm all for Walter Thurmond becoming a great player. But at this point he has to have a lot more than a few healthy practices and a couple preseason games under his belt before he can be trusted to replace one of the key contributors to the best secondary in the NFL.
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    Tical21
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  • scutterhawk wrote:
    Tech Worlds wrote:It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post

    Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
    Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.

    He beat out All-pro Sherman before he got hurt. In the little I've seen of him, Thurmond has always stuck out to me as being in the right place at the right time. Pete obviously has some type of affinity for Thurmond, otherwise he'd be gone by now being so oft-injured.
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    -The Glove-
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  • -The Glove- wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:
    Tech Worlds wrote:It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post

    Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
    Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.


    He beat out All-pro Sherman before he got hurt. In the little I've seen of him, Thurmond has always stuck out to me as being in the right place at the right time. Pete obviously has some type of affinity for Thurmond, otherwise he'd be gone by now being so oft-injured.


    Our starting corners in game 1 that season were Marcus Trufant and Brandon Browner... meaning both of them beat out Thurmond and Sherman. Does that mean that Trufant and Browner are the best 2 corners on the team?
    What does that tell you? Yes, Pete Carroll preaches competition, but he values actual playing time over what someone has shown in practice significantly more.

    Also, Sherman wasn't "All-pro" at that point, he was a rookie with 1 year of experience playing cornerback

    TDOTSEAHAWK wrote:Besides I have have seen many many good things from Browner. Beyond his size (which can't be stressed enough in a Carroll run defense) and durability (which cannot simply be ignored) he had 64 passes to his side last season and he gave up 30 receptions. His 5.5 yards/target is the 3rd best in the league. His adjusted success rate - which takes into account penalties was 61% - good for 10th. He certainly benefits from playing opposite Sherman but he is no slouch himself and is well above average as a second outside corner. Anyone remember Kelly Jennings?

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-a ... stats-2012


    If anything I'd say the opposite is true - because Sherman and Browner don't follow receivers around, he often finds himself lining up against the opposition's number 1 receiver as teams want to avoid Sherman.
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