RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS

The Essential Online Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute. RATING: PG-13
Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:14 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Well that's your opinion.

    I feel like both teams would want to retain their quantity over quality especially when their quantity of players also are of quality.

    Vernon Davis is an elite player, but this is a TEAM sport.

    Zach Miller is one of the better TEs in the NFL, not statistically in the last 2 years, but his blocking has been instrumental to our rushing revival. Many coaches especially Tom Cable have lauded his effort and toughness.
    So no I don't think the Seahawks would trade Miller, McGrath, Willson, + McCoy for one singularity of Vernon Davis. It would seem like a bad business decision.
    Also, Miller and Davis careers:

    Miller: 6 seasons, 65% catch rate (289/443), 48 catches per season, 557 yards per season, 11.6 ypc, 2.5 TDs per season, 151 First Downs & 3 Fumbles in 6 Seasons.

    Davis: 7 seasons, 60% catch rate (345/554), 49 catches per season, 621 yards per season, 622, 12.6 ypc, 5.71 TDs per season, 187 First downs and 7 fumbles in 7 Seasons.

    The only clear advantage I see with Davis is that he averages about 3.0 TDs per season more than Miller. And in Miller's case there are things to think about like the bad QB situation in Oakland in his time there which might not necessarily affect yardage but TD opportunities, switched teams during a lockout season with a QB that also was new, a QB that played hurt and didn't know how to target a TE to save his life, plus playing with a 3rd round rookie in 2012.
    Davis while he's had many OC changes had the same QB each year in Alex Smith other than when Shaun Hill stepped in because of injury and when Kaepernick replaced Smith, last season.
    So again Davis is a great player but imo Zach Miller isn't that far behind and I would give Miller the edge in overall blocking ability while both players are likely elite in that aspect.


    And frankly both McGrath and Willson have a lot of potential, according to Danny Kelly of FieldGulls.com and his inquiry into Nike's SPARQ rating system that measures a player's athletic ability and explosion both Luke Willson and Sean McGrath rate better than Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronokowski.

    Luke Willson, 6'5, 252, 136.69 SPARQ rating
    >Aaron Hernandez, 6'3, 245, 126.39 SPARQ rating
    Sean McGrath, 6'5, 257, 124.2 SPARQ rating
    >Rob Gronokowski, 6'6, 258, 121.05 SPARQ rating

    I'm not saying McGrath and Willson are going to tear the league up, but their athletic ability is better than Hernandez/Gronk. And the Seahawks have a great QB who can recognize and exploit that type of talent against opposing defenses.
    I’m not going to argue the Rams TE because frankly I don’t care as much but again I don’t think the Rams would trade two above quality to potentially great TEs for one elite one. It doesn’t make sense to me.
    TURN DOWN FOR WHAT? -The 12th Man
    Pandion Haliaetus
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2075
    Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:34 pm
  • If you are claiming that quantity is better than quality, perhaps PC should just trade away all your 1st-6th round picks for 7th rounders and get the quantity that you want.

    With salary cap issues that your team WILL face when rookie contracts get re-worked during their contract year on all your QUALITY players, quantity is something that your team won't be able to afford. You guys have a talented roster that is going to get really expensive in a few years because like you all have said before...they are young.

    Your TE argument of quantity over quality that you are using just to justify not awarding a higher point value to the Niners is dropping your credibility. I know I am a Niner fan so my opinion means little on here, but at least listen to your own who are telling you the same thing. There's nothing wrong with giving a team credit when credits due.
    DISCLAIMER:

    The trash talking that I do occasionally this week is strictly for gamesmanship between opposing fanbases as a result of our upcoming matchup this week on SNF. It by no means should be taken personally.
    User avatar
    NinerLifer
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 690
    Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:32 pm
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Tical21 wrote:Yes, the Rams and Hawks would trade their entire TE group for Vernon Davis. SF has the highest rated TE's in our division, and to think otherwise to me is almost enough of a farce to cost the entire post it's credibility.


    Well that's your opinion.

    I feel like both teams would want to retain their quantity over quality especially when their quantity of players also are of quality.

    Vernon Davis is an elite player, but this is a TEAM sport.

    Zach Miller is one of the better TEs in the NFL, not statistically in the last 2 years, but his blocking has been instrumental to our rushing revival. Many coaches especially Tom Cable have lauded his effort and toughness.
    So no I don't think the Seahawks would trade Miller, McGrath, Willson, + McCoy for one singularity of Vernon Davis. It would seem like a bad business decision.
    Also, Miller and Davis careers:

    Miller: 6 seasons, 65% catch rate (289/443), 48 catches per season, 557 yards per season, 11.6 ypc, 2.5 TDs per season, 151 First Downs & 3 Fumbles in 6 Seasons.

    Davis: 7 seasons, 60% catch rate (345/554), 49 catches per season, 621 yards per season, 622, 12.6 ypc, 5.71 TDs per season, 187 First downs and 7 fumbles in 7 Seasons.

    The only clear advantage I see with Davis is that he averages about 3.0 TDs per season more than Miller. And in Miller's case there are things to think about like the bad QB situation in Oakland in his time there which might not necessarily affect yardage but TD opportunities, switched teams during a lockout season with a QB that also was new, a QB that played hurt and didn't know how to target a TE to save his life, plus playing with a 3rd round rookie in 2012.
    Davis while he's had many OC changes had the same QB each year in Alex Smith other than when Shaun Hill stepped in because of injury and when Kaepernick replaced Smith, last season.
    So again Davis is a great player but imo Zach Miller isn't that far behind and I would give Miller the edge in overall blocking ability while both players are likely elite in that aspect.


    And frankly both McGrath and Willson have a lot of potential, according to Danny Kelly of FieldGulls.com and his inquiry into Nike's SPARQ rating system that measures a player's athletic ability and explosion both Luke Willson and Sean McGrath rate better than Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronokowski.

    Luke Willson, 6'5, 252, 136.69 SPARQ rating
    >Aaron Hernandez, 6'3, 245, 126.39 SPARQ rating
    Sean McGrath, 6'5, 257, 124.2 SPARQ rating
    >Rob Gronokowski, 6'6, 258, 121.05 SPARQ rating

    I'm not saying McGrath and Willson are going to tear the league up, but their athletic ability is better than Hernandez/Gronk. And the Seahawks have a great QB who can recognize and exploit that type of talent against opposing defenses.
    I’m not going to argue the Rams TE because frankly I don’t care as much but again I don’t think the Rams would trade two above quality to potentially great TEs for one elite one. It doesn’t make sense to me.

    Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1550
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:56 am
  • Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.


    :13:

    Seriously man?
    DISCLAIMER:

    The trash talking that I do occasionally this week is strictly for gamesmanship between opposing fanbases as a result of our upcoming matchup this week on SNF. It by no means should be taken personally.
    User avatar
    NinerLifer
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 690
    Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:02 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Did you just say that McGrath and Wilson have better athletic ability than Hernandez and Gronkowski?

    Have you ever seen Vernon Davis or Zach Miller play football? Actually play, not just look at stats, I mean actually play on the field.

    Cook and Kendricks? C'mon man.

    If SF was offered McGrath, Wilson, Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis, there is less than a 0 percent chance they make that move. You, sir, are vastly overstating the importance of a backup TE.


    Yeah, I did. Because they are. I wouldn't just say it, if I didn't mean it. Willson is an athletic monster. McGrath is no push-over either.

    [url]http://www.fieldgulls.com/seahawks-analysis/2013/6/19/4445838/seahawks-pete-carroll-sparq-luke-willson
    [/url]

    SPARQ rating is measured by an athlete's HT, WT, 40 YD Dash, 20 YD Shuttle, Vertical Jump and Powerball Toss (Which Danny Kelly researched that adding 20 reps to a players Bench Press is a close estimate to how many reps a player can throw a Powerball).

    Luke Willson: 6'5, 252, 4.51 40, 4.29 Shuttle, 38" Vertical Jump, 43 Adj. Powerball Toss. (135.69 SPARQ rating)

    Aaron Hernandez: 6'3, 245, 4.64 40, 4.18 Shuttle, 33" Vertical Jump, 50 Adj. Powerball Toss. (126.59 SPARQ rating)

    Sean McGrath: 6'5, 247, 4.79 40, 4.16 Shuttle, 35.5" Vertical Jump, 40* Adj. Powerball Toss (124.2 SPARQ rating)

    Rob Gronokowski: 6'6, 258, 4.68 40, 4.47 Shuttle, 33.5 Vertical Jump, 43 Adj. Powerball Toss (121.05 SPARQ rating)

    * Sean McGrath didn't perform in the bench press, so this was just an estimated figure on Danny Kelly's part but logically I think it would be a higher number than 20 bench reps because if you did a side by side of Willson and McGrath, you'd likely believe McGrath the stronger of the two and Willson had 23 reps.

    So, again, I did not state McGrath and Willson were better players than Hernandez and Gronk but in terms of measurable athleticism Willson rated better in than Hernandez by 9 points, and McGrath rated better than Gronk by 3 points.
    Willson and McGrath are 12 points of athleticism better than Hernandez and Gronk. Sorry to burst your bubble, dude.

    As for the whole Miller and Davis thing. I’ve seen Miller player, and I’ve seen Davis play. Obviously, Vernon Davis is elite by all means, but again I wouldn’t trade the farm for his services.

    As for Miller, he is a very good player, he hasn’t been as productive with the Seahawks because of the lockout transition and he’s been asked to play on the line a lot, limiting his overall opportunities the past two seasons.
    And don’t act like the stats don’t matter because that’s disregarding very good evidence to who both players are, Vernon Davis gets way more targets, Miller is more clutch with his catches with a 65% catch rate, the only thing Vernon Davis is truly better than Miller in is that he gets 1.0 more yards per catch, and 3.21 TDs more per season.

    Again, I wouldn’t trade Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis… so why would a theoretical argument with McGrath and Willson in the picture make a difference. I highly doubt the Rams would either. And you truly underrate the significance of a good backup. You act like players don’t ever get hurt. If Cook got hurt, the Rams automatically got a player in Kendricks who can step up and provide similar productions without any serious ramifications as to what they can do.

    If Vernon Davis gets hurt, San Fran is in serious trouble especially if their young and inexperienced guys can’t step up. They probably wished they had some depth.

    Again, I don’t think Seahawks would trade their 3 TEs for Vernon Davis. Miller is only a step behind Davis in overall talent in my perspective whether you believe or not the stats back it up whether you choose to ignore it or not plus McGrath, Willson both have above quality to elite athleticism and I’m pretty sure the Seahawks would want to see where that goes.

    As for the Rams, again, I don’t think the Rams trade Cook and Kendricks for Vernon Davis. Both TEs are young, and proven highly productive. A team can do a lot of things with an elite TE but a team can do much more with two quality to potentially great TEs. And in the NFL things like that matter in the end.
    TURN DOWN FOR WHAT? -The 12th Man
    Pandion Haliaetus
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2075
    Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:30 pm
  • I think you guys get too wrapped up in stats. Stats can and do get over inflated by many variables that don't get tracked, which is why stats aren't everything.

    Strength of schedule never gets factored into a stat line when judging a player except by us fans, and has a tendency to boost a players stats. If that team ends up having a good year off of a soft schedule, those players or the entire team in some cases flops the following year when their schedule is consequently more difficult due to their previous seasons success.

    These number games and stat lines are "fun" ways to pass the time during the offseason, but don't always tell the whole story.
    DISCLAIMER:

    The trash talking that I do occasionally this week is strictly for gamesmanship between opposing fanbases as a result of our upcoming matchup this week on SNF. It by no means should be taken personally.
    User avatar
    NinerLifer
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 690
    Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm
  • If backup TE's were valuable commodities, you wouldn't be able to get yours as an undrafted free agent and would have to pay them more than the league minimum. 25 of the NFL teams have a Joe as their backup TE, and wouldn't lose sleep if that guy were out for the season. Sean McGrath wouldn't make a list of the 40 most important Seahawks. If he is on any roster three years from now, it will be a feat.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1550
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:15 pm
  • You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.
    TURN DOWN FOR WHAT? -The 12th Man
    Pandion Haliaetus
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2075
    Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:47 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:I think you guys get too wrapped up in stats. Stats can and do get over inflated by many variables that don't get tracked, which is why stats aren't everything.

    Strength of schedule never gets factored into a stat line when judging a player except by us fans, and has a tendency to boost a players stats. If that team ends up having a good year off of a soft schedule, those players or the entire team in some cases flops the following year when their schedule is consequently more difficult due to their previous seasons success.

    These number games and stat lines are "fun" ways to pass the time during the offseason, but don't always tell the whole story.


    It's funny you say that because I was noticing yesterday on a 9er forum that you participate it, I was noticing repeatedly the lack of anything verifiable or stat related. Pretty much a bunch of hope based facts (Niner facts that is) that could only come from the imagination of a Niner fan.

    For fun I copied one that made me laugh.

    From the Niners forum:
    Seattle, though blatantly trying to mimic our formula will be a 2 year flash in the pan. Watch how they struggle to get 10 wins with the target on their backs and 5 10AM road games. STL, GB, NO, and NYG will be in our paths to Super Bowls for years to come because they have solid programs and excellent coaching. Pete Carroll will flame out and be sent packing in a couple of years, just watch. He is an average coach that just happens to be in the right division chasing and mimicking the right team. And Darren Bevell is his saving grace along with the talents of Marshawn Lynch. Once those 2 are gone the Hawks will fizzle out. They will have a good defense but Russy won't be able to carry them on his talents alone without another dynamo calling plays and running the ball.

    GB is the type of team with the type of QB that will be in our paths the next 5 years and I want to really establish the pecking order week 1 with another spanking to let them know who is boss. Plant the seeds of doubt in their minds and totally humiliate them each time we meet. After we spank them, then we go up to SEA and put Petey in his place. Now that we know how SEA intends to play us we will be ready but I know that we will present them with things they haven't seen or imagined behind the talents of our SUPERIOR coaching staff with Mangenious added to the mix. And we will be highly motivated after 42 - 13 and all the chatter that has been bandied about


    Don't you think stats as well as all information have some kind of place in these conversations? I mean otherwise you kind of end up with post's like the one above and don't fool yourself, there isn't a stat to be found in that entire thread.

    No I don't think we get hung up on stats, I think we have posters here that would like to provide information outside of imagination.

    Oop,s I guess technically 42-13 could be considered a stat.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:28 am
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.

    First of all, discounting the Niners depth is silly. The tight end they took in the draft is quite possibly one we had targeted, and looks damn good as a prospect. Their backup tight end was a bright spot, one of the few, in the beatdown they took in Seattle. And stats aside (and truly, you are using stats from the Alex Smith era to rate VD's production?), Vernon Davis is dynamic. He makes DCs lose sleep. Imagine him with Drew Brees or Tom Brady, it would be scary. As far as the fact that nobody can step into his role if he gets hurt, how many players in the entire league compare to Davis athletically? His speed size combo is rare. Of course the depth looks thin after him. But Vance Mcdonald might provide immediate impact, though with the Niners track record of not playing rookies much we might have to wait a year to find out what he can do.

    Speaking of which, Willson or McGrath proving to be good probably depends more on their blocking and Russell's arm than anything else. The fact that they are better athletes than Gronk or Hernandez or anyone else is meaningless. If it meant anything, Jameson Konz would be a probowler by now.

    As far as the rest of the league and the new value placed on the tight end position, that is here to stay IMO. The Bengals and Colts are imitating the Patriots. The Pats love having Tom Brady reading 3 players with two way go options at the LOS. The Niners run their 2 and 3 TE sets a lot different, seeking to establish all of their tight ends as blockers first. They use a bunch of formations to see if they can get linebackers and safeties to be assignment unsound, and they have those TEs running block sets and pass routes that look identical for the first few steps. THe Niners aren't doing two way go routes as often as the Patriots, clearly with them throwing 40 percent less they can't, and they like to run stacked route, stacked read stuff. Kaepernick has a lot of audible options if they see an easy two way go after they break huddle, but by and large they are not relying on those as a key ingredient of the offense like the Patriots. I don't think the Niners feel they have a lack of depth at TE, if the guys can block and catch a little, the scheme will provide some easy looks for them. Delanie Walker is not as good as some think, he is a product of that scheme, IMO. Losing him will be minimal impact, and in fact McDonald may provide a big upgrade, even though he may not be suited to the Hback role.

    I do appreciate the work you put into your OP, but I am more a matchup guy. Show me who is lined up on who, because that is what the OC, DC, and QB have to do.
    SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need
    User avatar
    Scottemojo
    *Scott of Smacksville*
    *Scott of Smacksville*
     
    Posts: 11666
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:32 pm
  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    First of all, discounting the Niners depth is silly. The tight end they took in the draft is quite possibly one we had targeted, and looks damn good as a prospect. Their backup tight end was a bright spot, one of the few, in the beatdown they took in Seattle. And stats aside (and truly, you are using stats from the Alex Smith era to rate VD's production?), Vernon Davis is dynamic. He makes DCs lose sleep. Imagine him with Drew Brees or Tom Brady, it would be scary. As far as the fact that nobody can step into his role if he gets hurt, how many players in the entire league compare to Davis athletically? His speed size combo is rare. Of course the depth looks thin after him. But Vance Mcdonald might provide immediate impact, though with the Niners track record of not playing rookies much we might have to wait a year to find out what he can do.

    Speaking of which, Willson or McGrath proving to be good probably depends more on their blocking and Russell's arm than anything else. The fact that they are better athletes than Gronk or Hernandez or anyone else is meaningless. If it meant anything, Jameson Konz would be a probowler by now.

    As far as the rest of the league and the new value placed on the tight end position, that is here to stay IMO. The Bengals and Colts are imitating the Patriots. The Pats love having Tom Brady reading 3 players with two way go options at the LOS. The Niners run their 2 and 3 TE sets a lot different, seeking to establish all of their tight ends as blockers first. They use a bunch of formations to see if they can get linebackers and safeties to be assignment unsound, and they have those TEs running block sets and pass routes that look identical for the first few steps. THe Niners aren't doing two way go routes as often as the Patriots, clearly with them throwing 40 percent less they can't, and they like to run stacked route, stacked read stuff. Kaepernick has a lot of audible options if they see an easy two way go after they break huddle, but by and large they are not relying on those as a key ingredient of the offense like the Patriots. I don't think the Niners feel they have a lack of depth at TE, if the guys can block and catch a little, the scheme will provide some easy looks for them. Delanie Walker is not as good as some think, he is a product of that scheme, IMO. Losing him will be minimal impact, and in fact McDonald may provide a big upgrade, even though he may not be suited to the Hback role.

    I do appreciate the work you put into your OP, but I am more a matchup guy. Show me who is lined up on who, because that is what the OC, DC, and QB have to do.


    Man I can't believe page 2 turned into an argument of TEs.

    1. I didn't discount Vernon Davis in anyway, as I gave the 49ers a full point for having him. I discounted their depth, which I can do, as their depth have proved little to nothing in this league. Hence, why I ranked the Seahawks last even though I felt Zach Miller is the 2nd best TE in the Division.

    2. Alex Smith is a decent better than average QB, he might not be elite, but he was a statistically great QB in 2012. I'd even wager they would have won the Superbowl with him. In my opinion, Harbaugh did a great disservice to Smith, and started Kaepernick because the read-option was having great success in the NFL. Russell Willson was tearing it up, and Harbaugh was jealous more or less. Speculation on my part, so don' get too bent out of shape over that comment. But the thing is, you can't really discount Alex Smith, when Vernon Davis put up his most of his elite status numbers over the years with Smith.

    3. The whole Seahawks targeted McDonald is just speculation, there is no evidence to support that. If anything Seahawks could have been scouting Luke Willson as JS stated that Willson was the “must have” player from this draft but since Vance McDonald is from Rice too. It would be very understandable to see how other teams might have been thinking Seahawks and McDonald with the 2nd. But the fact is 49ers still spent a 2nd round pick to replace Delanie walker, I think that tells you how important they view the depth from that position, and the fact is McDonald although an intriguing prospect is still a rookie. In my rankings I valued experience > potential.
    I also can’t see how you can support McDonald and then state Delanie Walker is overrated. The dude was a swiss army knife and was highly productive despite the fact that he was in the big bad might elite superman of Tight Ends Vernon Davis’ shadow. Just funny. I mean I guess the only reason any 49ers player is any good is because Vernon Davis’ influence makes them good. VD is elite but he is only one guy.

    4. I find your statement about McGrath and Willson to be a little dramatic especially the comparison to Konz.
    1) Konz was a 6-3, 227 WR in college, raw to the core, Seahawks took him on upside and while his athletic ability did impress, he could never grab a hold of an opportunity because he was oft-injured.
    2) So no its not meaningless. Both McGrath and Willson have prototypical TE size plus great athletic ability and their skills are much more refined for the position than Konz was.
    3) Their blocking ability is likely better than we assume… McGrath was an all-around solid TE at Henderson St and Willson said blocking is a strength of his game. It remains to be seen but we’ll find out more in training camp. I find it funny that players can’t be good anymore on their own ability, you basically said if McGrath and Willson are successful they have no right in it because its because of Russell Wilson.

    Whereas, I believe that Russell Wilson is the type of QB with ability that can exploit McGrath’s and Willson’s great athleticism.
    TURN DOWN FOR WHAT? -The 12th Man
    Pandion Haliaetus
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2075
    Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:41 pm
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?
    User avatar
    therealjohncarlson
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3595
    Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 2:09 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:47 pm
  • Dude, all you had to do was admit your man-crush on Willson and McGrath and this could have been over days ago. We all have them, and that is fine. Where you lost us was when you tried to justify your crushes by vastly overstating the value of depth at TE. My opinion is at least 25 teams in the NFL would trade their entire stable of TE's for SF's. Even the Colts. Even the Bengals. Definitely the Seahawks. I guess we will disagree and move on.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1550
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:46 am
  • therealjohncarlson wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?


    You are absolutely right. I'll apologize for that, we all have our own opinions, and our own values on how we view talent and potential in perspective that is relative to our team and league wide. Regardless of opinions its hard to argue who is in the right or wrong.

    That's why ranking such as this is widely subjective, even though I tried to remain as unbiased as possible.

    I've have already mentioned many times Vernon Davis as the best TE in the NFC West, so i'll just concede that they have the 49ers have the 2nd best TE corps in the Division, which is funny because that is where I originally slated them, with Vernon Davis giving them the tie-breaker with St. Louis until San Fran's backups prove their value.

    That change gives San Fran a 7 out of 9 score of WR/TEs in the West for an offensive potency score of 86%.

    I likely won't finish this project on the Defensive side of the ball, as my heart isn't in it anymore.
    TURN DOWN FOR WHAT? -The 12th Man
    Pandion Haliaetus
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2075
    Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:46 am
  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    therealjohncarlson wrote:
    Pandion Haliaetus wrote:You can say whatever you want... teams with two good to great TEs are more dangerous than teams with just one. McGrath is just the next talent up because McCoy (5th round pick) got hurt. Willson is a 5th round pick. And who cares where you find players in the draft or udfa.. it really means jack squat, what matters is they can contribute and be productive in the NFL.

    For instance Doug Baldwin, udfa 2011 was way more productive that season than any 49ers WR drafted other than Michael Crabtree and both had similar 1st seasons in the NFL.

    As for dual TE impact: Even though the 49ers had Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker saw plenty of playing time. Hernandez/Gronk. Hell, the Bengals spent a 1st round pick on a TE even though they already had a good one in Gresham. I don't have the time to look up more instances in the league where teams but i'm sure I could find more.

    You guys are awesome though, thanks for trying.


    Thanks for trying? Dude we appreciate your work, now why are you trying to ruin your welcome by being a prick?


    You are absolutely right. I'll apologize for that, we all have our own opinions, and our own values on how we view talent and potential in perspective that is relative to our team and league wide. Regardless of opinions its hard to argue who is in the right or wrong.

    That's why ranking such as this is widely subjective, even though I tried to remain as unbiased as possible.

    I've have already mentioned many times Vernon Davis as the best TE in the NFC West, so i'll just concede that they have the 49ers have the 2nd best TE corps in the Division, which is funny because that is where I originally slated them, with Vernon Davis giving them the tie-breaker with St. Louis until San Fran's backups prove their value.

    That change gives San Fran a 7 out of 9 score of WR/TEs in the West for an offensive potency score of 86%.

    I likely won't finish this project on the Defensive side of the ball, as my heart isn't in it anymore.


    Don't let people get to you, I enjoy your work and appreciate it. I don't always agree 100% but that's normal. Just because some are critical doesn't mean others don't enjoy reading your stuff.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:32 am
  • http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/ ... ack-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?
    DISCLAIMER:

    The trash talking that I do occasionally this week is strictly for gamesmanship between opposing fanbases as a result of our upcoming matchup this week on SNF. It by no means should be taken personally.
    User avatar
    NinerLifer
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 690
    Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:23 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?


    Well, besides the ability to jam a bunch of numbers into a site, the overall site is amateur at best. I see no reason to give the author of that drivel anymore credit then the one who posted here.

    That being said, Turbin had more total yards then both Hunter and James combined last season. And that was with a featured back that completely eclipsed Gore.

    Without any question, Lynch is the superior back to Gore (At this specific time, not talking about careers here). Turbin is right on par with the combination of both hunter and James. I think its pretty straight forward that SEA is the better of the two position groups.
    hawksincebirth wrote:So Russell has leverage but marshawn doesn't ? I thought its next man up. Hey we got t jack and bj Daniels right ??
    User avatar
    Cartire
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3427
    Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:28 am
  • Cartire wrote:
    NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?


    Well, besides the ability to jam a bunch of numbers into a site, the overall site is amateur at best. I see no reason to give the author of that drivel anymore credit then the one who posted here.

    That being said, Turbin had more total yards then both Hunter and James combined last season. And that was with a featured back that completely eclipsed Gore.

    Without any question, Lynch is the superior back to Gore (At this specific time, not talking about careers here). Turbin is right on par with the combination of both hunter and James. I think its pretty straight forward that SEA is the better of the two position groups.



    Add to this it is widely agreed that Gore and his lackeys benefit from an offensive line that is the better unit of the two teams.
    "Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk
    "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)
    User avatar
    bestfightstory
    * Glitter over Knives *
     
    Posts: 8511
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:13 pm


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:04 am
  • NinerLifer wrote:http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/07/top-5-nfl-running-back-corps/

    So what's your argument against this writers differing opinion about the RB corps?



    Thanks for providing an opinion link. Didn't see who the writer was and with no statistical back ground it just comes off as a Niner fans opinion.

    I do like how he address's Gore in ignoring he is 30 years old to simply say Year after year Gore gets it done. Even with more miles on the tires, Gore doesn't look to be slowing down and will once again be a keg cog in the 49ers offensive arsenal.

    Would anyone be surprised if Gore wasn't as effective this year as his past? It's is pretty well documented that 30 for a RB has been a major cliff. Enough so that any RB 30 and older are now in the prove it mold. The only ones assuming Gore will have no drop off Niner fans. For me I wouldn't be surprised either way, whether he remained productive or not. I wouldn't assume anything.

    For Lynch,

    Lynch has been the bell cow for the Seahawks the last two seasons and looks to continue that trend in 2013. Lynch has a violent running style that is mirrored by few. As long as he can stay healthy, another big season is on the horizon for the former Golden Bear.

    OK now why would you consider a 27 years as an injury risk and at the same time assume the 30 year old will just continue to produce? One answer. Fandom. Or the correct Niner spelling, Fandumb!!!

    Beyond that I wouldn't trade a single Seahawks RB for a Niner given comparable starter/back and that includes FB. MRob is way more beneficial for the team as a whole.

    The real scary part is I would trade you any of our Guards for Iupati. So imagine if Carpenter stays healthy and becomes what most believe he can. I think that would pretty much match the O-line quality between the two teams and statistically we already have the better group of backs. If Cable gets our O-line to where we believe he can with the existing personnel already here. We would suddenly be the much better unit.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am


Re: RANKING NFC WEST TEAMS
Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:07 am
  • Scottemojo wrote:I found your TE and O-line rankings a bit off. Why the focus on depth when most of these teams would trade their entire unit for Vernon Davis? Jared Cook is far less than the sum of the parts when you watch his actual playmaking results. Zach Miller can still dominate, look at the playoffs. Depth is nice, but not a requirement. Look at Detroits receiver corps. It is as deep as a kiddie pool after megatron, but who cares? Same goes for Vernon Davis.

    I felt like the whole exercise was about proving Seattle is better than SF. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it feels like.


    Bingo.
    Marvin49
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3743
    Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:34 pm




It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:54 am

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE OFFICIAL NET NATION FAN FORUM ]




Information